RMR Test Results- Very Very Surprised

deksgrl

Well, you are 8 pounds away from goal weight according to ticker. Are you raising your calories to a 10% calorie deficit? Or you are just raising them to a higher but still too aggressive deficit?

No. The Body builder does not want an immediate and drastic caloric increase. He wants to reset them gradually each week. I am alternating 1300/1700 right now. Probably 1400/1800 per day next week. That still gives me a good deficit where I can hit my goal weight fairly fast and maybe set a new goal of 199. 209 is a big milestone for me, so I am leary of bringing up the calories too quick or all at once. I can be more patient shooting for 199.

Understandable that you don't want to bring them up too quickly. 1800 is still going to be more than a pound a week loss. Still very aggressive. This is a body builder who is making these recommendations and he hasn't been concerned about loss of LBM, with a rate of 4 pounds a week loss?

No. Here is the thing about losing LBM, that he explained to me. Yes, if you are Dorian Yates, Ronnie Coleman, or Phil Heath, you have to worry about balancing weight loss versus LBM when you are cutting for Mr Olympia. But guess what? I aint them. I and 99% of the people on this site are not elite athletes with a 3-10% body fat. I and most people here have significant stores of body fat in spite of my weight loss. You will burn fat before you burn muscle if you have fat stores. I may write more in depth about this. It is one of the mantras that people on this site get wrong. Most of us are too fat to burn muscle in any significant amounts.

Studies on this, please.

scottYBRIDGEWATER

Well, you are 8 pounds away from goal weight according to ticker. Are you raising your calories to a 10% calorie deficit? Or you are just raising them to a higher but still too aggressive deficit?

No. The Body builder does not want an immediate and drastic caloric increase. He wants to reset them gradually each week. I am alternating 1300/1700 right now. Probably 1400/1800 per day next week. That still gives me a good deficit where I can hit my goal weight fairly fast and maybe set a new goal of 199. 209 is a big milestone for me, so I am leary of bringing up the calories too quick or all at once. I can be more patient shooting for 199.

Understandable that you don't want to bring them up too quickly. 1800 is still going to be more than a pound a week loss. Still very aggressive. This is a body builder who is making these recommendations and he hasn't been concerned about loss of LBM, with a rate of 4 pounds a week loss?

No. Here is the thing about losing LBM, that he explained to me. Yes, if you are Dorian Yates, Ronnie Coleman, or Phil Heath, you have to worry about balancing weight loss versus LBM when you are cutting for Mr Olympia. But guess what? I aint them. I and 99% of the people on this site are not elite athletes with a 3-10% body fat. I and most people here have significant stores of body fat in spite of my weight loss. You will burn fat before you burn muscle if you have fat stores. I may write more in depth about this. It is one of the mantras that people on this site get wrong. Most of us are too fat to burn muscle in any significant amounts.

Studies on this, please.

If I gave you articles and studies on it, would it matter??? If it would, I would certainly discuss the matter with my trainer and give you the feedback, and science on it. But if your mind is closed to the idea, then it would be pointless. Part of the problem with this site, is that there is a lot of "group think" that goes on. People rally around certain concepts and reject anything that falls outside the box with smarky comments and then they move on there merry way. I see a lot of logic in going to a car mechanic when I have a problem with my car. I see a lot of logic in consulting with a Body Builder about diet, nutrition, and strength training. Rather than people who seem more consumed with eating to their TDEE than actually losing weight.

ksuh999

If I gave you articles and studies on it, would it matter??? If it would, I would certainly discuss the matter with my trainer and give you the feedback, and science on it. But if your mind is closed to the idea, then it would be pointless. Part of the problem with this site, is that there is a lot of "group think" that goes on. People rally around certain concepts and reject anything that falls outside the box with smarky comments and then they move on there merry way. I see a lot of logic in going to a car mechanic when I have a problem with my car. I see a lot of logic in consulting with a Body Builder about diet, nutrition, and strength training. Rather than people who seem more consumed with eating to their TDEE than actually losing weight.

You are correct. In the Real World, I've talked to a couple of trainers about this and they said the exact same thing. You can't lose LBM (other than water) at typical BF%. The body always favours losing fat first.

scottYBRIDGEWATER

If I gave you articles and studies on it, would it matter??? If it would, I would certainly discuss the matter with my trainer and give you the feedback, and science on it. But if your mind is closed to the idea, then it would be pointless. Part of the problem with this site, is that there is a lot of "group think" that goes on. People rally around certain concepts and reject anything that falls outside the box with smarky comments and then they move on there merry way. I see a lot of logic in going to a car mechanic when I have a problem with my car. I see a lot of logic in consulting with a Body Builder about diet, nutrition, and strength training. Rather than people who seem more consumed with eating to their TDEE than actually losing weight.

You are correct. In the Real World, I've talked to a couple of trainers about this and they said the exact same thing. You can't lose LBM (other than water) at typical BF%. The body always favours losing fat first.

Thank you. I did not actually think that this was ground breaking new. Its is fairly well known by almost anyone who engages in serious weight training or has ever picked up a copy of Flex or Muscular Development. But I will cite some articles for the naysayers and then they can ignore it and crack some one liners while they fantasize about their next snicker bar. So much of the "conventional wisdom" on this site is just so wrong. You need to be an elite athlete with a very low BF% to begin with (marathon runners BBs) to be concerned with burning LBM as opposed to fat stores that have served humankind through our evolutonary journey.

AllTehBeers

Let me get this straight.

You estimated a rough TDEE/BMR. Decided to eat below these.

You then had your RMR professionally measured, discovered it was much higher than you anticipated, and are now going to eat even less than you were before.

Yep, for this week. I would like to get 2-4 more lbs off this week. And then I'll bring up the calories next week. I'm NOT going to go out and have a pie to celebrate. I'd rather whack off a couple more pounds this week and re-set the calories next week.

I use a different approach to whacking off the pounds.

scottYBRIDGEWATER

Let me get this straight.

You estimated a rough TDEE/BMR. Decided to eat below these.

You then had your RMR professionally measured, discovered it was much higher than you anticipated, and are now going to eat even less than you were before.

Yep, for this week. I would like to get 2-4 more lbs off this week. And then I'll bring up the calories next week. I'm NOT going to go out and have a pie to celebrate. I'd rather whack off a couple more pounds this week and re-set the calories next week.

I use a different approach to whacking off the pounds.

I just threw up in my mouth.................

geebusuk

I would love to see studies on this too.

Everything I've seen suggests you do get muscle loss.
But that's generally been in regards to, how the amount protein affects the AMOUNT of muscle loss.


For the OP:
Had you done weights the day before?
I've tested my RMR (have my own setup) the day after a weights session and it came out decent high - 2400 when I was maybe 175lb (something like that anyway). That was congruent with the amount I was eating and that I was merely maintaining despite eating a good lot of calories.

cmriverside

Let me get this straight.

You estimated a rough TDEE/BMR. Decided to eat below these.

You then had your RMR professionally measured, discovered it was much higher than you anticipated, and are now going to eat even less than you were before.

Yep, for this week. I would like to get 2-4 more lbs off this week. And then I'll bring up the calories next week. I'm NOT going to go out and have a pie to celebrate. I'd rather whack off a couple more pounds this week and re-set the calories next week.

I use a different approach to whacking off the pounds.

I just threw up in my mouth.................

um, scotty, those were YOUR words she used.

AllTehBeers

Let me get this straight.

You estimated a rough TDEE/BMR. Decided to eat below these.

You then had your RMR professionally measured, discovered it was much higher than you anticipated, and are now going to eat even less than you were before.

Yep, for this week. I would like to get 2-4 more lbs off this week. And then I'll bring up the calories next week. I'm NOT going to go out and have a pie to celebrate. I'd rather whack off a couple more pounds this week and re-set the calories next week.

I use a different approach to whacking off the pounds.

I just threw up in my mouth.................

um, scotty, those were YOUR words she used.

I was talking about Spin classes.

Sheesh.

scottYBRIDGEWATER

I would love to see studies on this too.

Everything I've seen suggests you do get muscle loss.
But that's generally been in regards to, how the amount protein affects the AMOUNT of muscle loss.


For the OP:
Had you done weights the day before?
I've tested my RMR (have my own setup) the day after a weights session and it came out decent high - 2400 when I was maybe 175lb (something like that anyway). That was congruent with the amount I was eating and that I was merely maintaining despite eating a good lot of calories.

I'll post a few articles on this muscle loss issue.

- I started with weights in 1981. That was when I was told by the "experts" that I would get "muscle bound" and "unflexible". The exact opposite happened.

- I did weights in the 1990s when the "experts" said that you had to do cardio and not weights to lose weight. Weight training would add "bulk". The exact opposite happened

_ I did weights in the 2000s when the "experts" said that cardio and not weights will make you lean. The exact opposite happened.

Got away from them as I got older/hurt. Back on them training Dorian Yates HIT style.

I did not do an RMR test before starting. But I am certain based on my past weight and past caloric intake that it had to have been substantially lower than now. And the rapid weight loss coincides with not just caloric deficits, but a significant boost to my metabolism thru weight training. The "experts" would have you believe that my caloric deficits should have caused a significant slowing of my metabolism. That did not happen. The opposite appears to have occurred. So much for the experts....

scottYBRIDGEWATER

Let me get this straight.

You estimated a rough TDEE/BMR. Decided to eat below these.

You then had your RMR professionally measured, discovered it was much higher than you anticipated, and are now going to eat even less than you were before.

Yep, for this week. I would like to get 2-4 more lbs off this week. And then I'll bring up the calories next week. I'm NOT going to go out and have a pie to celebrate. I'd rather whack off a couple more pounds this week and re-set the calories next week.

I use a different approach to whacking off the pounds.

I just threw up in my mouth.................

um, scotty, those were YOUR words she used.

Different context i would imagine.

geebusuk

The "experts" would have you believe that my caloric deficits should have caused a significant slowing of my metabolism. That did not happen. The opposite appears to have occurred. So much for the experts....

Which experts?
Are these experts basing their information on actual research?
All the research I've read suggests it takes a bit of time to get your metabolism down.

Here's one to show that, especially if protein levels are not kept up, you WILL lose muscle -
http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/weight-loss/dietary-protein-increases-lean-mass/
(It links to an abstract of the actual study, got a feeling you can get it for free somewhere.)

Again; when you had your RMR tested, had you done weights the day before?
What about within 48 hours?

scottYBRIDGEWATER

The "experts" would have you believe that my caloric deficits should have caused a significant slowing of my metabolism. That did not happen. The opposite appears to have occurred. So much for the experts....

Which experts?
Are these experts basing their information on actual research?
All the research I've read suggests it takes a bit of time to get your metabolism down.

Here's one to show that, especially if protein levels are not kept up, you WILL lose muscle -
http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/weight-loss/dietary-protein-increases-lean-mass/
(It links to an abstract of the actual study, got a feeling you can get it for free somewhere.)

Again; when you had your RMR tested, had you done weights the day before?
What about within 48 hours?

The "experts" were those of that era that I mentioned. Mainly in the diet and fitness era of those times. I have no idea what they based their "conventional wisdom" or psedo science on. I just knew it was bull sheet. I know I did not listen to it and looked toward Zane, Haney, and Yates for strength training and nutritional advice. I liked the guys that actually lived the life and not just talked about it. Or wrote a paper or study that was later discredited by another paper or study.

I had not done weights or cardio within 48 hours

I had the test at 10:00 AM and last ate or drank at 8:00 pm the prior night

I had no water, coffee, medication.

I was relaxed

scottYBRIDGEWATER

The "experts" would have you believe that my caloric deficits should have caused a significant slowing of my metabolism. That did not happen. The opposite appears to have occurred. So much for the experts....

Which experts?
Are these experts basing their information on actual research?
All the research I've read suggests it takes a bit of time to get your metabolism down.

Here's one to show that, especially if protein levels are not kept up, you WILL lose muscle -
http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/weight-loss/dietary-protein-increases-lean-mass/
(It links to an abstract of the actual study, got a feeling you can get it for free somewhere.)

Again; when you had your RMR tested, had you done weights the day before?
What about within 48 hours?

I don't see anything in the article that addresses my point? I was discounting the notion that people with high levels of BF% will somehow burn significant amounts of muscle tissue as opposed to fat when they significantly restrict calories and are in a deficit. They will always tend to burn fat before muscle. Do you want a study to show this or are we on the same page? I will agree that muscle loss may occur with elite athletes and not the average fatty posting here. For example:

Dorian Yates in the offseason would consume up to 7000 calories per day. He would weigh around 285 pounds. 12-16 weeks out from the Olympia he would cut down to 3000 calories as would aim to come in to contest at 255 pounds grainy and shredded. He was shooting for a 3-5% BF percentage when he hit the stage. Now for him, it would be a balancing act between definition versus losing some muscle mass. A REAL issue for someone in his position. Which is why he wouldn't aim for 250,245,or 240 with more definition. He would sacrifice muscle mass. But this is a guy who is at 10-15% BF "offseason" at 285-300lbs. Is that you or me? Or 99.99% of the people here? No. The people here are at 25,30,35 or higher BF%. At that BF they are in no danger of losing significant muscle mass. They will burn their fat stores first and foremost. Until there BF percentage is much lower. WE ARE TOO FAT AND NOT IN DANGER OF LOSING SIGNIFICANT MUSCLE MASS. People on this site make several really bad assumptions:

1- They think they actually have (and can build) more muscle than they actually do.

2- They believe they can lose that LIMITED muscle (rather than their PLENTIFUL fat stores) much quicker than they actually can thru caloric deficit

And they tend to look for any excuse to "eat more to lose more". Or to "eat back their calories".

Most people here eat too much. period.

laurelobrien

Ah, MFP. Home of the arm chair nutritionists, most of whom are scared to death of a starvation response that hasn't ever been noticeably measured in healthy humans.

Keep truckin, OP. Good luck!

scottYBRIDGEWATER

Ah, MFP. Home of the arm chair nutritionists, most of whom are scared to death of a starvation response that hasn't ever been noticeably measured in healthy humans.

Keep truckin, OP. Good luck!

Well, there needs to be at least one person on this forum who aint drinking the Koolaid and gives a different perspective. People have got to stop overestimating their RMR, BMR, TDEE and activity levels. Its a cluster bleep of people looking at every excuse to eat more and more and more. And an endless line of enablers who want to feed them the same BS that "you aren't nearly eating enough". Really? Doesn't seem that way to me. Quite the opposite. People eating way too much and not willing to create some pain to get in shape. Thats what it takes. So keep eating all of your favorites foods and lose a pound a month until you have the next never ending "setback" and create another excuse to over eat. They will have plenty of friends for the ride....

scottYBRIDGEWATER

Balancing Weight Loss versus LBM. This is a problem NOBODY here has....................

kgeyser

Weight loss without losing muscle mass in pre-obese and obese subjects induced by a high-soy-protein diet. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15303108

Overweight and obese people! Calorie deficits without severe calorie restrictions! Still losing muscle mass while losing fat! Protein and exercise playing a role in preserving muscle mass! Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!

Edit to add: Off to do my workout now, so won't be responding back immediately. Sorry.

cmriverside

What the Hell are you on about, scotty?

There are lots of people here who have lost a lot of weight. Don't assume you know everything.



Mostly because - Newsflash - you don't.

What do those bodybuilders' pictures have to do with any of this?

scottYBRIDGEWATER

What the Hell are you on about, scotty?

There are lots of people here who have lost a lot of weight. Don't assume you know everything.



Mostly because - Newsflash - you don't.

What do those bodybuilders' pictures have to do with any of this?

No, but I know more than you. That point is quite evident.


And does every post have to be explained to you in detail? Perhaps if you were paying attention and following along the points, the discussion would not be continually going over your head. The BB pictures go along with the weight versus LBM discussion that you were not paying attention to. The picture illustrates the balancing act that an elite athlete has in balancing weight loss from 300lbs down to 255lbs. And how that will effect LBM in reality. This problem does not generally apply to obese people who have plenty of fat stores and limited muscle mass. They won't be wasting away anytime soon....Now you get it?