RMR Test Results- Very Very Surprised

vanguardfitness

I'm thinking poor scotty is just hungry, and that is making him overly testy. Can't believe he's this wound up already after 120ish posts here.

Eat some food, you'll be much happier. Really. :flowerforyou:

maybe his RMR went even higher?

scottYBRIDGEWATER

I'll post a few articles on this muscle loss issue.

- I started with weights in 1981. That was when I was told by the "experts" that I would get "muscle bound" and "unflexible". The exact opposite happened.

- I did weights in the 1990s when the "experts" said that you had to do cardio and not weights to lose weight. Weight training would add "bulk". The exact opposite happened

_ I did weights in the 2000s when the "experts" said that cardio and not weights will make you lean. The exact opposite happened.

Got away from them as I got older/hurt. Back on them training Dorian Yates HIT style.

I did not do an RMR test before starting. But I am certain based on my past weight and past caloric intake that it had to have been substantially lower than now. And the rapid weight loss coincides with not just caloric deficits, but a significant boost to my metabolism thru weight training. The "experts" would have you believe that my caloric deficits should have caused a significant slowing of my metabolism. That did not happen. The opposite appears to have occurred. So much for the experts....

I find it funny that you, Scotty, claim to have such a substantial amount of knowledge on the subject, and in particular, claim you are more knowledgeable than all of the MFP "fatties," yet you "Started with weights in 1981." It's 2014!!! You've been going at it for 33 years and you are only making ANOTHER mistake haha! You do realize that there are a whole lot of successful weight loss stories on here, including people getting into single digit BF percentages? Of which they already have achieved, unlike some . And a great lot of them did it in less than a year. By eating. More. Than you.

Either way, if it works, it works and more power to you. Just don't start crying 20 years from now saying "So much for the experts, uh I mean, bodybuilder guy that I payed money for."

Good Luck.

Never claimed I have more knowledge than everyone. Just the bad scientists and arm chair nutrionalist who keep repeating bad science.

I also consider myself to be a fattie at the moment. so it is self deprecating.

Yes I have lifted weight for a long time and returned back to them after in an injury. I was trying to point out all of the nonsense that had been taken as gospel over thos decades only to be eventually rejected as BS.

I am sure there are many success stories. And there are many many failures. Of people restarting and failing over and over. And there are reasons for that. Many people seem to want to gloss over that. I am trying to give a different perspective on why that may be.

I am doing what works for me and doubt I will be crying about anything, as the positive feedback far outweighs the negative.

I am not paying for anything

scottYBRIDGEWATER

OP you may want to check out this definition before you keep making claims that others on here are only answering because of personal preference or 'fixation'...which actually to all appearances seems to be your methodology "My gym brah told me"

anecdotal
ˌanɪkˈdəʊtl/
adjective
adjective: anecdotal

1.
(of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.

2.based on personal observation, case study reports, or random investigations rather than systematic scientific evaluation

Most tales, mine, yours, and others are anecdotal. This site is not a double blind study. I see that. Do you?

determinedbutlazy

Wow, you're not paying for anything?? I wish I had a free gym and a free personal trainer.

I stick by a post I made a few pages back. Show me some good progress pictures where you don't look like crap for undereating and I will shut my mouth.

Show me a progress pic where you look half as good as any of the shirtless dudes in this thread who are telling you you're doing it wrong, and I will eat my damn hat.

scottYBRIDGEWATER

"Hey! you can eat a bunch of calories and still lose fat!!"
"Nah, thanks, i'm just going to starve myself."

But I don't feel "starved" in the least. The definitions of starvation seem somewhat overexaggerated at times.....

you know who else doesn't feel like they are starving? many people who suffer from anorexia nervosa.
Part of the problem for both anorexics and overeaters, is that their/our hunger cues don't work properly anymore.

True. But I think i can recognize the difference between hunger and starvation. When I am hungry, I eat. But I have yet to feel starved. The term starvation is thrown around here very very loosely IMO. And it seems to be a way of convincing people here to eat eat eat. Which does not seem to work out all that well in many cases.

Ophidion

OP you may want to check out this definition before you keep making claims that others on here are only answering because of personal preference or 'fixation'...which actually to all appearances seems to be your methodology "My gym brah told me"

anecdotal
ˌanɪkˈdəʊtl/
adjective
adjective: anecdotal

1.
(of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.

2.based on personal observation, case study reports, or random investigations rather than systematic scientific evaluation

Most tales, mine, yours, and others are anecdotal. This site is not a double blind study. I see that. Do you?

Can't believe I am even going to dignify that with a response but here we go: Obviously this site is not a double blind study but maybe just maybe people who are questioning your conclusions, outlooks, replies etc have read/studied reputable research that is verified and stands up to scientific scrutiny...much like the people who did your tests that you choose to ignore.

scottYBRIDGEWATER

Wow, you're not paying for anything?? I wish I had a free gym and a free personal trainer.

I stick by a post I made a few pages back. Show me some good progress pictures where you don't look like crap for undereating and I will shut my mouth.

Show me a progress pic where you look half as good as any of the shirtless dudes in this thread who are telling you you're doing it wrong, and I will eat my damn hat.

The gym aint free!

If I should pictures people would just say they are someone else or photoshopped anyway.

Besides, I never claimed I was as lean as the 20 somethings here. I still have a way to go. And consider myself a fattie

But you may misunderstand something. Its not about me comparing myself to anyone here. Its about me comparing myself to me. Its about me acheiving my own goals and my own standards. At 50, I dont look like a Chippendale. Those days are gone. But I look a helluva lot better than I did when I was layed up with an injury in the 260s??? Yikes. I doubt you would want a picture of me then. I don't and I think I burned them to be honest. So I am not interested in measuring myself to anyone's standard but my own. And I'm fairly happy of my progress. But not there yet.....

ZeKiplinatell

[/quote]

Never claimed I have more knowledge than everyone. Just the bad scientists and arm chair nutrionalist who keep repeating bad science.

I also consider myself to be a fattie at the moment. so it is self deprecating.

Yes I have lifted weight for a long time and returned back to them after in an injury. I was trying to point out all of the nonsense that had been taken as gospel over thos decades only to be eventually rejected as BS.

I am sure there are many success stories. And there are many many failures. Of people restarting and failing over and over. And there are reasons for that. Many people seem to want to gloss over that. I am trying to give a different perspective on why that may be.

I am doing what works for me and doubt I will be crying about anything, as the positive feedback far outweighs the negative.

I am not paying for anything

(End Quote - for some reason it wasn't quoted correctly...hmmm. Still new to this haha.)

Wow, after seeing your other responses to people, I honestly expected you to have a very conceded and immature response to what I had said. Kudos for the good response haha. On THAT note, I agree. There is a whole lot of hoopla that goes around on this site and ANYWHERE else you look. What people on here usually like to spout is personal experience and MOST of the time, they are trying to steer people away from making the same mistakes that they did. In this case, undereating. A lot of people have fallen victim to that approach and in turn, were hoping only to "enlighten" you. So I don't mean any offense to you by this, but the way you respond to some of these people, in a way, instigates the ill responses you get in turn. Just my opinion.

Either way, it's a journey for all of us and no science or anyone else's experiences will be the all solution. Find what works (TRULY works) for you and continue to pursue your goal in that manner. You will know if you are doing it right in the long run... and any ups and downs will just add to your experience. Good luck.

MaretL

It was VERY surprising to me. Because it would seem to contradict much of the closely held views that you see in this forum. Which the haters are now out in force. Funny, the Body Builder was not surprised. He is not a big believer in metabolic damage or slowdown given his own experiences. He feels that the body can be put under stress and rebound quickly from it. He takes a more aggressive approach to weight loss. He feels that one of the major reasons many people fail at weight loss, is the whole slow and steady approach that you see advocated. People get frustrated, depressed, and give up when they see small tiny incremental weight loss. And eventually give up or have setbacks. Larger and more aggressive weight loss motivates people and helps them push forward.

I am glad that this approach seems to suit you best. I guess body builders would be exactly the ones to learn about aggressive weight loss and building muscle. I always admire athletes' motivation it is truly unbelievable what they put themselves through to get the results. Amazing!
I'm not an athlete or scientist and I absolutely hear you when you say that over the years the ideas of "the best approach to lose weight and be healthy" change so it is very hard to decide which version to believe. And I agree that people tend to overrate food. Long time ago people had to do hard manual labor all day long without opportunity to eat big amounts of food packed with calories with no nutritional value... It's simple yes, if your calories in are bigger than calories out then you become overweight. I read that you are not slave of food and it is great! Wish I was like that! To be honest, I don't really care how you are going to eat this week and next, I'm just glad you have found a way which suits you. At the same time I think it is also great that there are so many people on this site who have lost incredible amounts of weight and they have changed their habits for life, eating healthy food and exercising daily. They truly inspire me every single time I need a push to get myself back into it. If I wouldn't love food so much (i wouldn't be overweight then and would never find this site) then I guess I would get lots of inspiration from you and your approach.

My point is, everyone has to find the way which suits them. When I look at body builders I admire them but I am not them, I don't have that kind of motivation and I won't be able to use their aggressive approach. When I have tried, it ends up exactly the opposite as you say, it is overwhelming, too restrictive, I have to think about it all day and I'm cranky and hungry etc. Haha, ask my family.
I actually love slow pace, the pressure is much less and I want to keep it going. For me, it doesn't matter that I don't lose much in a week because I have lots of time to get to my goal, the rest of my life really. For me it is more important to learn healthy ways and be good to my body so aggressive style does not fit for that. I do enjoy food, especially nice fresh nutritious food, so that's the approach I choose for myself. Probably you look awesome in 2 months time when I'm not yet but I guess in long run I am happier that way All the best!

scottYBRIDGEWATER

OP you may want to check out this definition before you keep making claims that others on here are only answering because of personal preference or 'fixation'...which actually to all appearances seems to be your methodology "My gym brah told me"

anecdotal
ˌanɪkˈdəʊtl/
adjective
adjective: anecdotal

1.
(of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.

2.based on personal observation, case study reports, or random investigations rather than systematic scientific evaluation

Most tales, mine, yours, and others are anecdotal. This site is not a double blind study. I see that. Do you?

Can't believe I am even going to dignify that with a response but here we go: Obviously this site is not a double blind study but maybe just maybe people who are questioning your conclusions, outlooks, replies etc have read/studied reputable research that is verified and stands up to scientific scrutiny...much like the people who did your tests that you choose to ignore.

Question whatever you want as will I. And I find in many instances the viewpoints presented are not backed by science, but by perceptions. And there seem to be lines in the sand that people want to draw.

ZeKiplinatell

And by the way... if you actually want to follow the advice of a bodybuilder... (Someone tell me if I can't recommend books on here) than you should give "Burn the Fat, Feed the Muscle" by Tom Venuto a read. It's definitely a great one and would help you on your journey if you were willing to comply with the content. This I am sure of. Just personal experience here though =P

QueenBishOTUniverse

"Hey! you can eat a bunch of calories and still lose fat!!"
"Nah, thanks, i'm just going to starve myself."

But I don't feel "starved" in the least. The definitions of starvation seem somewhat overexaggerated at times.....

you know who else doesn't feel like they are starving? many people who suffer from anorexia nervosa.
Part of the problem for both anorexics and overeaters, is that their/our hunger cues don't work properly anymore.

True. But I think i can recognize the difference between hunger and starvation. When I am hungry, I eat. But I have yet to feel starved. The term starvation is thrown around here very very loosely IMO. And it seems to be a way of convincing people here to eat eat eat. Which does not seem to work out all that well in many cases.

I have never once seen any of the posters on this thread expressing concern tell someone to eat eat eat. In fact, I have seen exactly the opposite with the point being made repeatedly that the first thing to do is weigh your food if you're not losing weight because you are probably eating more than you think. The posters you seem to show such disdain for are also the ones that generally call out less knowledgeable participants for spreading "starvation mode" mythology and other forms of extremism and scientifically unfounded weight loss propaganda. So I am curious to know where you get that they are to ones responsible for causing these issues....

And yes, I will consider scientifically cited sources above all else, but if I'm comparing anecdotal evidence, sorry, but I'm going with the people who have lost significant amounts of weight, transformed their bodies and maintained that transformation for years over the new person who just started out but "knows" they've got it right and everybody else is wrong.

scottYBRIDGEWATER

Never claimed I have more knowledge than everyone. Just the bad scientists and arm chair nutrionalist who keep repeating bad science.

I also consider myself to be a fattie at the moment. so it is self deprecating.

Yes I have lifted weight for a long time and returned back to them after in an injury. I was trying to point out all of the nonsense that had been taken as gospel over thos decades only to be eventually rejected as BS.

I am sure there are many success stories. And there are many many failures. Of people restarting and failing over and over. And there are reasons for that. Many people seem to want to gloss over that. I am trying to give a different perspective on why that may be.

I am doing what works for me and doubt I will be crying about anything, as the positive feedback far outweighs the negative.

I am not paying for anything

(End Quote - for some reason it wasn't quoted correctly...hmmm. Still new to this haha.)

Wow, after seeing your other responses to people, I honestly expected you to have a very conceded and immature response to what I had said. Kudos for the good response haha. On THAT note, I agree. There is a whole lot of hoopla that goes around on this site and ANYWHERE else you look. What people on here usually like to spout is personal experience and MOST of the time, they are trying to steer people away from making the same mistakes that they did. In this case, undereating. A lot of people have fallen victim to that approach and in turn, were hoping only to "enlighten" you. So I don't mean any offense to you by this, but the way you respond to some of these people, in a way, instigates the ill responses you get in turn. Just my opinion.

Either way, it's a journey for all of us and no science or anyone else's experiences will be the all solution. Find what works (TRULY works) for you and continue to pursue your goal in that manner. You will know if you are doing it right in the long run... and any ups and downs will just add to your experience. Good luck.
[/quote]

I see your point. But I think some of the people here are some what arrogant when they try to "enlighten" the minority. The minority viewpoint will always be perceived as being the instigator because we are in the minority. People dont agree and dont want agree and dont want others to agree. So lets shout them down, post idiotic memes, and feel superior without addressing anything. In all honesty, I think a lot of people here over eat. And they want some level of empathy and agreement on that. So circle the wagons and lets shout down anyone who challenges that notion. We want to eat and we want to eat more. And we dont want to feel guilty about it. Studies, science, or anecdotal just does not seem to support that view. People are bigger fatter and lazier. They eat too much and they eat too much junk. And I do not think people want to hear that. But I agree, that you have to do what works for you. My approach aint easy and it probably wont ever be embraced. After all, I apparently am starving and have an eating disorder......

scottYBRIDGEWATER

It was VERY surprising to me. Because it would seem to contradict much of the closely held views that you see in this forum. Which the haters are now out in force. Funny, the Body Builder was not surprised. He is not a big believer in metabolic damage or slowdown given his own experiences. He feels that the body can be put under stress and rebound quickly from it. He takes a more aggressive approach to weight loss. He feels that one of the major reasons many people fail at weight loss, is the whole slow and steady approach that you see advocated. People get frustrated, depressed, and give up when they see small tiny incremental weight loss. And eventually give up or have setbacks. Larger and more aggressive weight loss motivates people and helps them push forward.

Awesome post. I agree wholeheartedly....

I am glad that this approach seems to suit you best. I guess body builders would be exactly the ones to learn about aggressive weight loss and building muscle. I always admire athletes' motivation it is truly unbelievable what they put themselves through to get the results. Amazing!
I'm not an athlete or scientist and I absolutely hear you when you say that over the years the ideas of "the best approach to lose weight and be healthy" change so it is very hard to decide which version to believe. And I agree that people tend to overrate food. Long time ago people had to do hard manual labor all day long without opportunity to eat big amounts of food packed with calories with no nutritional value... It's simple yes, if your calories in are bigger than calories out then you become overweight. I read that you are not slave of food and it is great! Wish I was like that! To be honest, I don't really care how you are going to eat this week and next, I'm just glad you have found a way which suits you. At the same time I think it is also great that there are so many people on this site who have lost incredible amounts of weight and they have changed their habits for life, eating healthy food and exercising daily. They truly inspire me every single time I need a push to get myself back into it. If I wouldn't love food so much (i wouldn't be overweight then and would never find this site) then I guess I would get lots of inspiration from you and your approach.

My point is, everyone has to find the way which suits them. When I look at body builders I admire them but I am not them, I don't have that kind of motivation and I won't be able to use their aggressive approach. When I have tried, it ends up exactly the opposite as you say, it is overwhelming, too restrictive, I have to think about it all day and I'm cranky and hungry etc. Haha, ask my family.
I actually love slow pace, the pressure is much less and I want to keep it going. For me, it doesn't matter that I don't lose much in a week because I have lots of time to get to my goal, the rest of my life really. For me it is more important to learn healthy ways and be good to my body so aggressive style does not fit for that. I do enjoy food, especially nice fresh nutritious food, so that's the approach I choose for myself. Probably you look awesome in 2 months time when I'm not yet but I guess in long run I am happier that way All the best!

scottYBRIDGEWATER

And by the way... if you actually want to follow the advice of a bodybuilder... (Someone tell me if I can't recommend books on here) than you should give "Burn the Fat, Feed the Muscle" by Tom Venuto a read. It's definitely a great one and would help you on your journey if you were willing to comply with the content. This I am sure of. Just personal experience here though =P

I'll check it out. I don't follow any single approach. In fact, what I do is probably not embraced by most bodybuilders. I try to play around with stuff and see what works. So I keep tweaking things. IF, fasting, carb cycling, calorie cycling, HIT weight training, lower intensity cardio, calorie restriction. And its a fluid process. Yeah, today I fast and tomorrow I wont. This week calories are going down and next week they are going up. We will see...........

scottYBRIDGEWATER

"Hey! you can eat a bunch of calories and still lose fat!!"
"Nah, thanks, i'm just going to starve myself."

But I don't feel "starved" in the least. The definitions of starvation seem somewhat overexaggerated at times.....

you know who else doesn't feel like they are starving? many people who suffer from anorexia nervosa.
Part of the problem for both anorexics and overeaters, is that their/our hunger cues don't work properly anymore.

True. But I think i can recognize the difference between hunger and starvation. When I am hungry, I eat. But I have yet to feel starved. The term starvation is thrown around here very very loosely IMO. And it seems to be a way of convincing people here to eat eat eat. Which does not seem to work out all that well in many cases.

I have never once seen any of the posters on this thread expressing concern tell someone to eat eat eat. In fact, I have seen exactly the opposite with the point being made repeatedly that the first thing to do is weigh your food if you're not losing weight because you are probably eating more than you think. The posters you seem to show such disdain for are also the ones that generally call out less knowledgeable participants for spreading "starvation mode" mythology and other forms of extremism and scientifically unfounded weight loss propaganda. So I am curious to know where you get that they are to ones responsible for causing these issues....

And yes, I will consider scientifically cited sources above all else, but if I'm comparing anecdotal evidence, sorry, but I'm going with the people who have lost significant amounts of weight, transformed their bodies and maintained that transformation for years over the new person who just started out but "knows" they've got it right and everybody else is wrong.

There just seem to be a significant amount of posts that start.

"Wow, you aren't eating enough"
"Wow, you are practically starving yourself"
"Never go below 1200 calories"

I also find very few people calling others out on starvation mode ideology. but I am new and maybe have read every thread to know. That is my perception.

I don't expect or particularly care if people want to do or embrace my approach. Its probably better that they dont. But I am just trying to present my story and approach rather than follow the herd. Its an alternative and something to consider. As i said, I am not patient enough to wait a year to lose 52 pounds, a pound a week. Depressing and demoralizing. I'd quit before I would begin..........

Sarauk2sf

I would love to see studies on this too.

Everything I've seen suggests you do get muscle loss.
But that's generally been in regards to, how the amount protein affects the AMOUNT of muscle loss.


For the OP:
Had you done weights the day before?
I've tested my RMR (have my own setup) the day after a weights session and it came out decent high - 2400 when I was maybe 175lb (something like that anyway). That was congruent with the amount I was eating and that I was merely maintaining despite eating a good lot of calories.

Re studies. Eric Helms looked at it as part of his thesis on protein requirements. I did a write up here.

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1158604-eric-helms-protein-research

Conclusion: basically, calories have as much to do with LBM retention as protein, if not more.

SoLongAndThanksForAllTheFish

Hello Scotty. Lots of emotions in here, and I'll tell you a couple things I've learned if you will hear them, through experience and degrees, no I'm not going to go into any competition, or prove anything to you, I don't need you to believe me or not, I'm just trying to help and if you cant hear me, hey, I tried. First off you will lose muscle mass with any quick diet, period. No known exceptions. Now, it may not be a huge amount, and you probably wont even notice because more motor units are recruited to push or pull the same weight to make up for the loss, but you will lose some. Muscle mass is much harder to replace than weight is to lose, so it is generally better to lose slower.

Now, reading your posts, the bigger issue for you may be proving to yourself what you are capable of. Yes its fun to lose fast sometimes, and sometimes its easier mentally to restrict hard for a week or two and then not have to restrict much later, just know you WILL lose muscle doing this is all I'm saying, and at 50 its harder to put back on than it was in your 20s or 30s or 40s.

An anecdotal example, I did this myself in fact for one week, I was going through the very last finals in grad school and then had a break and so I had time and wanted to lose weight. I didnt like starving then either, so I monitored my calories and limited but did not set up a big deficit, however I trained hard hard hard, weight trained every day to prevent muscle loss, AND did 1-2hrs of elliptical AND swam or hiked daily, hours of exercise per day to get the deficit up. I ended up losing 10lbs in one week. But, afterwards I was exhausted. My lifts did decrease later for a while, after initially seeing no decrease to mild gain, until I re-built my muscle I'd lost, and I ended up over compensating and gaining all the weight back not long after. No, definitely not the best way to go, but I proved to myself I could do it, and it was fun to try once. Now I'm losing slowly, not even the loss you show on your ticker in a year. But, I'm not losing strength, and I'm hardly working at it. Much better way to go in my opinion. But, of course do what you want. Just know you can think what you want, but the cost will still be some muscle. For me, that's not a price I'll pay now. Off to enjoy my full chicken dinner with potatos, vegetables and beer. You can check my profile, I'm maintaining close to all my lifts I note (except bench, so hard to maintain without a good spotter). Choose wisely and have fun

VBnotbitter

You know what mate you are old enough to make your own decisions. If you want to eat so little for a week knock yourself out.

You really need to know your audience though because it isnt just the people replying who are reading this. There are lots of lurkers for whom eating VLCD is a really bad idea - youngsters who arent even overweight but think they need to be size 0, overweight people who think the only way to lose weight is eat tiny amounts and end up giving up, people who have been on the diet rollercoaster for years who lose and gain because they never learn to eat properly.

Thats why people on this site will continue to argue that VLCD is a bad idea and that a smaller deficit and patience is the way to go, because if it saves one kid from an eating disorder, or one morbidly obsese person from giving up then it is worth it.

NRSPAM

Well, I lift all the weights, eat all the foodz, n look hawwtt!!! I do what I want!!! :drinker: :smokin: