Paleo vs. Clean eating?
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Paleo is stupid, uneccessary, potentially unhealthy and as an idea it is utterly fallicious.
Clean eating is on the same boat, but the level of negatives is dependant on how obsessive you are about what specific foods you're eating or not.
I don't understand why people can't accept that fact that the healthiest way to diet is to track your calories, track your macros, hit your goals, get in sufficient micronutrients and phytonutrients and be sane. Processed foods and whole foods.
Chemicals in foods =/= always bad for you
Natural =/= always good for you
Processed =/= always bad for you
I've never once seed a justified response to someone avoiding "processed foods", as if all processed foods are processed in one way, at one level.
We have eaten what is considered clean since newlyweds well over 30 years ago and even growing up. We don't call it clean eating just simply eating. I certainly don't consider it stupid in any way, shape or form. We don't buy: canned soups, ready meals, boxed foods, frozen meals, ready snacks, most dry cereals, mass produced baked foods, lunch meat, processed cheese products and mass produced canned foods so that is about as close to avoiding processed foods as you can get. Very little of our food dollar is spent at a grocery store. I can't say we don't eat processed foods as we dry, freeze and can our foods ourselves and yes, the produce is either home grown or purchased from local organic growers and our meats are both local, and hormone free. Most of the fish we eat is locally caught. Stupid? No! Healthy? Yes! Frugal? Yes!
BTW, you don't need to eat Paleo, vegan, clean, upside down or right side up to lose weight. All you need is a calorie deficit.
You are really fortunate to have the resources to do that. Few people do.0 -
Paleo is stupid, uneccessary, potentially unhealthy and as an idea it is utterly fallicious.
Clean eating is on the same boat, but the level of negatives is dependant on how obsessive you are about what specific foods you're eating or not.
I don't understand why people can't accept that fact that the healthiest way to diet is to track your calories, track your macros, hit your goals, get in sufficient micronutrients and phytonutrients and be sane. Processed foods and whole foods.
Chemicals in foods =/= always bad for you
Natural =/= always good for you
Processed =/= always bad for you
I've never once seed a justified response to someone avoiding "processed foods", as if all processed foods are processed in one way, at one level.
We have eaten what is considered clean since newlyweds well over 30 years ago and even growing up. We don't call it clean eating just simply eating. I certainly don't consider it stupid in any way, shape or form. We don't buy: canned soups, ready meals, boxed foods, frozen meals, ready snacks, most dry cereals, mass produced baked foods, lunch meat, processed cheese products and mass produced canned foods so that is about as close to avoiding processed foods as you can get. Very little of our food dollar is spent at a grocery store. I can't say we don't eat processed foods as we dry, freeze and can our foods ourselves and yes, the produce is either home grown or purchased from local organic growers and our meats are both local, and hormone free. Most of the fish we eat is locally caught. Stupid? No! Healthy? Yes! Frugal? Yes!
BTW, you don't need to eat Paleo, vegan, clean, upside down or right side up to lose weight. All you need is a calorie deficit.
You are really fortunate to have the resources to do that. Few people do.
We are indeed blessed. We raised our kids this way and quality food has always been priority number one. That meant in the early days we were willing to go without luxuries like new furniture and new clothes that our friends were buying but even then we were convinced that the quality of food made a difference. It took time and effort to find the resources too as well as to educate ourselves. Those resources would do little good if we weren't willing to cook from scratch at home. Quite frankly with the way we eat we actually spend about a quarter what an average family spends if that. Our hormone, grass fed beef costs less than that sold in the grocery stores as does most of the organic produce we buy. If we can make it ourselves, we do including cured meats, yogurt, and cheese. We do have access to local growers and local food producers so there is very little we eat that is not grown within a 100 mi radius of our home. I know a lot of folk can't say that but at the same time they do have more resources than they are aware of. This new fangled internet makes it very easy to find those resources! There are numerous apps to help find organic growers and local food producers.0 -
Paleo is stupid, uneccessary, potentially unhealthy and as an idea it is utterly fallicious.
Clean eating is on the same boat, but the level of negatives is dependant on how obsessive you are about what specific foods you're eating or not.
I don't understand why people can't accept that fact that the healthiest way to diet is to track your calories, track your macros, hit your goals, get in sufficient micronutrients and phytonutrients and be sane. Processed foods and whole foods.
Chemicals in foods =/= always bad for you
Natural =/= always good for you
Processed =/= always bad for you
I've never once seed a justified response to someone avoiding "processed foods", as if all processed foods are processed in one way, at one level.
We have eaten what is considered clean since newlyweds well over 30 years ago and even growing up. We don't call it clean eating just simply eating. I certainly don't consider it stupid in any way, shape or form. We don't buy: canned soups, ready meals, boxed foods, frozen meals, ready snacks, most dry cereals, mass produced baked foods, lunch meat, processed cheese products and mass produced canned foods so that is about as close to avoiding processed foods as you can get. Very little of our food dollar is spent at a grocery store. I can't say we don't eat processed foods as we dry, freeze and can our foods ourselves and yes, the produce is either home grown or purchased from local organic growers and our meats are both local, and hormone free. Most of the fish we eat is locally caught. Stupid? No! Healthy? Yes! Frugal? Yes!
BTW, you don't need to eat Paleo, vegan, clean, upside down or right side up to lose weight. All you need is a calorie deficit.
You are really fortunate to have the resources to do that. Few people do.
We are indeed blessed. We raised our kids this way and quality food has always been priority number one. That meant in the early days we were willing to go without luxuries like new furniture and new clothes that our friends were buying but even then we were convinced that the quality of food made a difference. It took time and effort to find the resources too as well as to educate ourselves. Those resources would do little good if we weren't willing to cook from scratch at home. Quite frankly with the way we eat we actually spend about a quarter what an average family spends if that. Our hormone, grass fed beef costs less than that sold in the grocery stores as does most of the organic produce we buy. If we can make it ourselves, we do including cured meats, yogurt, and cheese. We do have access to local growers and local food producers so there is very little we eat that is not grown within a 100 mi radius of our home. I know a lot of folk can't say that but at the same time they do have more resources than they are aware of. This new fangled internet makes it very easy to find those resources! There are numerous apps to help find organic growers and local food producers.
Time is a resource, as is the ability to travel within 100 miles to access locally-grown foods. The fact that you own enough land is also a resource that very, very few people have the luxury of owning. I realize that you made it a priority early on in life, and that you made sacrifices to do so, and that is really commendable.
And you're sooo right about calorie deficit for weight loss!! If only everyone did!0 -
Also, I'd like to know a) why it's "healthy" compared to other choices and b) how cows (or any animals) can function without hormones? :P0
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Paleo is stupid, uneccessary, potentially unhealthy and as an idea it is utterly fallicious.
Clean eating is on the same boat, but the level of negatives is dependant on how obsessive you are about what specific foods you're eating or not.
I don't understand why people can't accept that fact that the healthiest way to diet is to track your calories, track your macros, hit your goals, get in sufficient micronutrients and phytonutrients and be sane. Processed foods and whole foods.
Chemicals in foods =/= always bad for you
Natural =/= always good for you
Processed =/= always bad for you
I've never once seed a justified response to someone avoiding "processed foods", as if all processed foods are processed in one way, at one level.
We have eaten what is considered clean since newlyweds well over 30 years ago and even growing up. We don't call it clean eating just simply eating. I certainly don't consider it stupid in any way, shape or form. We don't buy: canned soups, ready meals, boxed foods, frozen meals, ready snacks, most dry cereals, mass produced baked foods, lunch meat, processed cheese products and mass produced canned foods so that is about as close to avoiding processed foods as you can get. Very little of our food dollar is spent at a grocery store. I can't say we don't eat processed foods as we dry, freeze and can our foods ourselves and yes, the produce is either home grown or purchased from local organic growers and our meats are both local, and hormone free. Most of the fish we eat is locally caught. Stupid? No! Healthy? Yes! Frugal? Yes!
BTW, you don't need to eat Paleo, vegan, clean, upside down or right side up to lose weight. All you need is a calorie deficit.
You are really fortunate to have the resources to do that. Few people do.
We are indeed blessed. We raised our kids this way and quality food has always been priority number one. That meant in the early days we were willing to go without luxuries like new furniture and new clothes that our friends were buying but even then we were convinced that the quality of food made a difference. It took time and effort to find the resources too as well as to educate ourselves. Those resources would do little good if we weren't willing to cook from scratch at home. Quite frankly with the way we eat we actually spend about a quarter what an average family spends if that. Our hormone, grass fed beef costs less than that sold in the grocery stores as does most of the organic produce we buy. If we can make it ourselves, we do including cured meats, yogurt, and cheese. We do have access to local growers and local food producers so there is very little we eat that is not grown within a 100 mi radius of our home. I know a lot of folk can't say that but at the same time they do have more resources than they are aware of. This new fangled internet makes it very easy to find those resources! There are numerous apps to help find organic growers and local food producers.
Time is a resource, as is the ability to travel within 100 miles to access locally-grown foods. The fact that you own enough land is also a resource that very, very few people have the luxury of owning. I realize that you made it a priority early on in life, and that you made sacrifices to do so, and that is really commendable.
And you're sooo right about calorie deficit for weight loss!! If only everyone did!
Yes, time is a resource and one we do use wisely. You made the assumption that we own enough land for whatever and while we do own our home there is little actual land for large scale gardening. Unfortunately, we cannot have backyard chickens because we are urban. Instead, we are very creative with using what we have to grow what we can. A surprising amount of produce can be grown in very small spaces, even on balconies and windowsills. In our area, I am aware of more than 5 of our regular resources that will deliver right to our door. Some of the local food producers within a 100 mile radius will deliver via overnight ground shipping. Our friends often ask if we need anything when they are going out of town so we use that opportunity as well. So we can still get what we need locally without necessarily having to travel to get it. Again, the internet is a valuable resource in this respect. All this is really just our way of life.
I think it may be easier to create a calorie deficit if you already eat healthy foods simply because you aren't giving up less nutritionally valued foods. There is less of a learning curve to learning to make better food choices. Perhaps it is a bit easier to increase the activity level as well but still all that is really needed a calorie deficit that can be created by eating less or eating the same and increasing activity, or eating less and increasing activity. I think because it really is that simple, folks try to complicate it.0 -
Also, I'd like to know a) why it's "healthy" compared to other choices and b) how cows (or any animals) can function without hormones? :P
If you are referring to our lifestyle, our food choices are healthier because they are free of a number of food additives and residues that are carcinogenic or detrimental to health in one way or another. There is a lot of information on the negative impact of food dyes to the point that some are not even allowed Europe forcing the American food manufacturer to remove them if they want to sell that product there. There is a lot of information on the negative impact of GMO on the gastro-intestinal tract. Food preservatives can cause a huge problem and there is pressure on companies for their removal. There is all kinds of information on the harmful side effects of BPA found in the lining of commercially canned foods. Then there is pink slime, meat glue and a whole range of questionable food additives that are only removed from our foods after the damage has been done. Certain food additives are actually addictive and there is scientific studies that prove that. Whether these harmful chemicals have a short half-life or not, they are still in your body and have the potential to do harm as they pass through your body. If your food is making you sick, or has the potential to cause physical harm at some level, then it isn't really healthy, is it? If you avoid exposure to these harmful chemicals by choosing foods free of them, then by default the food itself is a healthier choice.
Hormone free with respect to animals refers to the addition of growth hormone to force the animal to maturity faster. It's a cost savings measure to boost profits. There is a lot of scientific research on how growth hormones and antibiotics in meats and milk are affecting especially children. All you have to do is go directly to the peer reviewed scientific journals to find this information.0 -
I have read many peer reviewed scientific studies. I haven't read any that support your claims, though that's not to say they aren't out there.
"Food addtivites" is far, far, far too a general term to be able to label them as "good" or "bad" to my mind.
Are you suggesting all 'GMO' has this detrimental issue? That to me suggests you don't actually understand the basis of 'GMO' if you believe that.
Pink Slime. This one I've REALLY got to bite on! So, what exactly IS wrong with pink slime? Do you eat cheese?
None of my food is making me sick (apart from what ever gave me a stomach bug a couple of months back - I suspect it was actually my habit of trying ALL the samples in the supermarket - which all sundry have also had their dirty-mits all over.
ANY food has the "potential" for harm. So, any food I could eat (and of course even drinking water) by your definition "isn't really healthy".
If you know of any decent studies that show harm from any of the things you mention, I'd love to hear them.
Especially pink-slime - the pink slime fearmongering I find particularly irksome as it seems to be so badly informed.0 -
For anyone interested in the 80/20 principle: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/8020-principle/0
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I thought he provided citations and so on, been a while since I read it.For anyone interested in the 80/20 principle: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/8020-principle/
Just had a quick look around (avoiding doing useful stuff I REALLY should be doing!) and read his "Why Grains Are Unhealthy" page.
While I DO agree with a fair bit of what he's posting, I don't agree that an aspect in it's self not being healthy makes them "unhealthy". The way he presents the information seems pretty alarmist and thus also tad biased.0 -
Of course he is bias - in his days of endurance sports he probably consumed more grains than most. When he cut them they had a profound effect on his overall health - he was his own study of one.
Which is why he recommends anyone to do their own 21 day study of one.
I did and the result for me was rewarding, others will do it and see no difference - then go back to their original diet or try and find another way of achieving the goals they have set.
21 days of not eating grains or processed carbs - hardly a hardship to see if something will be a long term lifestyle change to better health or a less painful or uncomfortable digestion of food.
You are bias, as you are following a plan that suits you and your life (subconsciously you will lean towards the studies that prove your belief). I will do the same as will most of the people who post on these forums.
What surprises me are the number of people that seem oblivious to this fact (it's almost like a denial).
Still from a primal point of view I hope that clears up the 80/20 rule.
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Well, at least that goes along with my thoughts that it 'works' for some because you're eliminating things your body may have an issue with.
I try to present information I know in a neutral stance with the facts being more far important than spin.
Plenty of research has lead me to change what I do - in the past I did 5/6 small meals a day, always made sure I had breakfast, avoided grains, sugar, 'processed' and so on - often ate a lot of salad with lean meat.
These days I've done enough research to know that there's no reason (as I have no intolerances in that aspect) with having cake, sweets or grain stuff and I'm just as happy if someone prepares/processes my food as if I do it myself.
If he's only suggesting that it will benefit a subsection, it's unfortunate it's presented in such a black and white manner.
As I mentioned, it's a while since I read his site and I think now I'm reminded why I haven't been back since - it seems to be trying to promote a new-school faith more than useful information.
I'm following a 'plan' in as much as I choose some guidelines (such as protein intake) around what has been shown by studies to be a good ideal. This may not be the same for other people in other situations and I certainly wouldn't advise everyone follows the same as me.
As per my 800g carbs comment - I would only recommend that if someone else was in a similar situation to the one I was in.
So a sedentary 50 year old female with 100lb to lose I certainly would be advising ate the same that I did.
(In fact you'll often seem me pointing out that avoiding simple carbs IS a good idea if you're a fair bit overweight and/or unfit.)
This isn't a case of what works for me, but what has been shown to work for people in that situation.0 -
But that's the thing though there are lots of studies, anecdotal evidence to show that a whole host of different styles of eating will work for people.
At the end of the day, that's a good thing as we all need to find what best fits us. It's like TV if we all liked watching the same thing there would be hundreds of channels.
In regards to the presentation of primal - I think the trick is to read between the lines (I don't often take things at face value). If I read something that gets my interest I tend to dig further from alternative sources.
My personal view, which is based on my own study of one - there is evidence that cutting grains and simple carbs has a positive effect. And that eating a LCHF diet has a positive effect.
Clearly what you are doing works for you and you have been on your own trial and error journey to find that.
I take it from your previous posts that you do endurance exercise and do weights - Ideally a high carb diet is more appropriate for your lifestyle.0 -
Paleo is stupid, uneccessary, potentially unhealthy and as an idea it is utterly fallicious.
Clean eating is on the same boat, but the level of negatives is dependant on how obsessive you are about what specific foods you're eating or not.
I don't understand why people can't accept that fact that the healthiest way to diet is to track your calories, track your macros, hit your goals, get in sufficient micronutrients and phytonutrients and be sane. Processed foods and whole foods.
Chemicals in foods =/= always bad for you
Natural =/= always good for you
Processed =/= always bad for you
I've never once seed a justified response to someone avoiding "processed foods", as if all processed foods are processed in one way, at one level.
We have eaten what is considered clean since newlyweds well over 30 years ago and even growing up. We don't call it clean eating just simply eating. I certainly don't consider it stupid in any way, shape or form. We don't buy: canned soups, ready meals, boxed foods, frozen meals, ready snacks, most dry cereals, mass produced baked foods, lunch meat, processed cheese products and mass produced canned foods so that is about as close to avoiding processed foods as you can get. Very little of our food dollar is spent at a grocery store. I can't say we don't eat processed foods as we dry, freeze and can our foods ourselves and yes, the produce is either home grown or purchased from local organic growers and our meats are both local, and hormone free. Most of the fish we eat is locally caught. Stupid? No! Healthy? Yes! Frugal? Yes!
BTW, you don't need to eat Paleo, vegan, clean, upside down or right side up to lose weight. All you need is a calorie deficit.
You are really fortunate to have the resources to do that. Few people do.
We are indeed blessed. We raised our kids this way and quality food has always been priority number one. That meant in the early days we were willing to go without luxuries like new furniture and new clothes that our friends were buying but even then we were convinced that the quality of food made a difference. It took time and effort to find the resources too as well as to educate ourselves. Those resources would do little good if we weren't willing to cook from scratch at home. Quite frankly with the way we eat we actually spend about a quarter what an average family spends if that. Our hormone, grass fed beef costs less than that sold in the grocery stores as does most of the organic produce we buy. If we can make it ourselves, we do including cured meats, yogurt, and cheese. We do have access to local growers and local food producers so there is very little we eat that is not grown within a 100 mi radius of our home. I know a lot of folk can't say that but at the same time they do have more resources than they are aware of. This new fangled internet makes it very easy to find those resources! There are numerous apps to help find organic growers and local food producers.
Time is a resource, as is the ability to travel within 100 miles to access locally-grown foods. The fact that you own enough land is also a resource that very, very few people have the luxury of owning. I realize that you made it a priority early on in life, and that you made sacrifices to do so, and that is really commendable.
And you're sooo right about calorie deficit for weight loss!! If only everyone did!
Yes, time is a resource and one we do use wisely. You made the assumption that we own enough land for whatever and while we do own our home there is little actual land for large scale gardening. Unfortunately, we cannot have backyard chickens because we are urban. Instead, we are very creative with using what we have to grow what we can. A surprising amount of produce can be grown in very small spaces, even on balconies and windowsills. In our area, I am aware of more than 5 of our regular resources that will deliver right to our door. Some of the local food producers within a 100 mile radius will deliver via overnight ground shipping. Our friends often ask if we need anything when they are going out of town so we use that opportunity as well. So we can still get what we need locally without necessarily having to travel to get it. Again, the internet is a valuable resource in this respect. All this is really just our way of life.
I think it may be easier to create a calorie deficit if you already eat healthy foods simply because you aren't giving up less nutritionally valued foods. There is less of a learning curve to learning to make better food choices. Perhaps it is a bit easier to increase the activity level as well but still all that is really needed a calorie deficit that can be created by eating less or eating the same and increasing activity, or eating less and increasing activity. I think because it really is that simple, folks try to complicate it.
I was under the impression that you raised cattle from your previous post.0 -
Still from a primal point of view I hope that clears up the 80/20 rule.
I would say it's written in a much less laissez faire manner than what has been suggested, though. He admits that 100% compliance may not be realistic but should be the intent, and that total avoidance of processed carbs should be adhered to for any meaningful benefits.0 -
Also, I'd like to know a) why it's "healthy" compared to other choices and b) how cows (or any animals) can function without hormones? :P
If you are referring to our lifestyle, our food choices are healthier because they are free of a number of food additives and residues that are carcinogenic or detrimental to health in one way or another. There is a lot of information on the negative impact of food dyes to the point that some are not even allowed Europe forcing the American food manufacturer to remove them if they want to sell that product there. There is a lot of information on the negative impact of GMO on the gastro-intestinal tract. Food preservatives can cause a huge problem and there is pressure on companies for their removal. There is all kinds of information on the harmful side effects of BPA found in the lining of commercially canned foods. Then there is pink slime, meat glue and a whole range of questionable food additives that are only removed from our foods after the damage has been done. Certain food additives are actually addictive and there is scientific studies that prove that. Whether these harmful chemicals have a short half-life or not, they are still in your body and have the potential to do harm as they pass through your body. If your food is making you sick, or has the potential to cause physical harm at some level, then it isn't really healthy, is it? If you avoid exposure to these harmful chemicals by choosing foods free of them, then by default the food itself is a healthier choice.
Hormone free with respect to animals refers to the addition of growth hormone to force the animal to maturity faster. It's a cost savings measure to boost profits. There is a lot of scientific research on how growth hormones and antibiotics in meats and milk are affecting especially children. All you have to do is go directly to the peer reviewed scientific journals to find this information.
That's great!
Might have ended up a whole lot differently had you been a single parent working a job or two and trying to go to school to provide for yourself and your children, huh?0 -
Still from a primal point of view I hope that clears up the 80/20 rule.
I would say it's written in a much less laissez faire manner than what has been suggested, though. He admits that 100% compliance may not be realistic but should be the intent, and that total avoidance of processed carbs should be adhered to for any meaningful benefits.
He has a podcast where he talks about his as well - if your still questioning the 80/20 principle have a listen - although still not sure why you and others are so hung up on it.
I can't speak for others but I certainly do not go anywhere near an 80/20 split. Mines more of a 95/5 split. Although my treats are dark chocolate and red wine - both of which are advocated on the PB. 0 -
And when advice is backed up by decent studies and other 'good science', I'll not only be investigating, but likely propagating the same advice.
Cutting grains and simple carbs has worked for you.
Cutting out protein powder works for me. But I advice people TO have protein powder, because I know other people are unlikely to have the same intolerances as me.
Too often anecdotes are taken as evidence without a decent understanding of what is going on, to my mind.
The leap from eliminating things which may cause some problems improving their well being to it being generically 'healthy' is a good example.
I don't do a massive amount of serious endurance stuff at the moment (most runs are under an hour and a half), with the Saturday gone by far the most serious I've done.
I do try and keep the weights up and so am happy to have carbs to fuel my body for that and the rest of life generally.0 -
He has a podcast where he talks about his as well - if your still questioning the 80/20 principle have a listen - although still not sure why you and others are so hung up on it.
If you don't get it, repeating it won't help you understand. I have the same interest in semantics for vegan and vegetarian diets. I'd have the same interest in other diets that promote this idea.
But I will say that the theory in the link I posted is sensible to me. I also don't think it much resembles some of what has been suggested in these threads over the last few months.0 -
I can't speak for anyone else but I tend to follow my LCHF quite strictly. I think where the confusion has come in is that some people mistake the food diaries of people following primal for people that follow strict paleo (big difference).0
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Paleo is stupid, uneccessary, potentially unhealthy and as an idea it is utterly fallicious.
Clean eating is on the same boat, but the level of negatives is dependant on how obsessive you are about what specific foods you're eating or not.
I don't understand why people can't accept that fact that the healthiest way to diet is to track your calories, track your macros, hit your goals, get in sufficient micronutrients and phytonutrients and be sane. Processed foods and whole foods.
Chemicals in foods =/= always bad for you
Natural =/= always good for you
Processed =/= always bad for you
I've never once seed a justified response to someone avoiding "processed foods", as if all processed foods are processed in one way, at one level.
Ummmm, you think writing down every single morsel of food/drink and adding up every single calorie, carb or protein you eat for the rest of your life is healthy or sane?!? Seriously WTF?
Eat healthy, non processed foods and excersise and you won't need to - simple.0
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