If cutting cal= losing,y do people want ketosis?

danimalkeys

Deek.

Absolutely.

albertabeefy

Wow, you're a jerk.

I'd rather listen to someone who's still overweight and losing than an idiot that posts things with no basis in reality like:

Ketogenic diet is not about cutting on calories.... you gonna loose weight even by eating more calories then your bmr+actv requires.

... Which is absolutely false ... Or this gem:

keto diet = about 10-15g carbs a day MAX

... also completely untrue. A ketogenic diet is any carbohydrate amount that keeps one in ketosis. Typically under 50g a day, but in many cases up to 100g or more. It depends on the individual and their metabolism.

You further state this kind of brilliance:

Again, the real Keto diet is pretty much zero Carbs. You are left with eating:

-Eggs
-Meat
-Fish
-Cheddar Cheese

... which again, is an incredibly simplistic and ignorant opinion/view of the diet. There are many more fat choices than those, and a healthy ketogenic diet includes abundant vegetable sources.

It doesnt work because you eat less, it works because your Body, specially your brain needs Carbohydrates to function properly.

Not quite true again. In the non-keto-adapted individual the body/brain rely on GLUCOSE (which the body eventually converts all dietary carbohydrate to) but in a keto-adapted individual it prefers ketones and needs roughly 10-15g of glucose to function, which it can obtain in the absence of dietary carbohydrate via gluconeogenesis.

In short, your body is gonna start burning fat super SUPER fast because there are no Carbs to burn.

Your body will burn fat only marginally-faster than with the same caloric deficit from any other diet, in all honesty. It's just often easier for a keto-adapted individual to reduce calories as they're often more-satiated. It is, however, protein-sparing - as such research indicates it burns less lean-muscle while in a deficit than a non-keto caloric deficit might.

Of course, it shouldn`t surprise me that you make a jerk comment like the above when your idea of dietary advice is:

Just stop being lazy and change that and you will loose weight much faster.

asieo

"As far back as the 1950s researchers learned that high-protein and especially high-fat diets promote weight loss better than high-carbohydrate diets. Researchers Alan Kekwick and Gaston Pawan found that when obese subjects were given diets that consisted of the same number of calories but differed in the amount of fat, protein, and carbohydrate, that those with the fat- or protein-rich diets lost weight while those on the carbohydrate-rich diets didn't.

In a follow-up study Kekwick and Pawan compared the weight loss of obese subjects on a high-carbohydrate diet with a high-fat diet. Subjects on a high-carbohydrate, 2000-calorie diet failed to lose weight. The same subjects on a high-fat diet not only lost weight at 2000 calories but lost weight even when calorie consumption increased to 2600! A typical example of the subjects in the study was BJ. After eight days on the high-carbohydrate, 2000-calorie diet, BJ didn't lose an ounce, but lost 9 pounds in 3 weeks on the 2600-calorie, high-fat diet."

(from http://books.google.com/books?id=rFF30fhh7SoC&pg=PA21&lpg=PA21&dq=alan+kekwick+and+gaston+pawan&source=bl&ots=gUy9LDuH5F&sig=0jZGReHew4oJ6jUSFyz9lupv6J0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=gUw4U4q7A5DMsQST4YJY&sqi=2&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=alan kekwick and gaston pawan&f=false)

I first read about this study in Living Low Carb by Jonny Bowden:

"In one study, they put obese subjects on a 1000-calorie diet but varied the percentages of protein, carbs, and fat. Some subjects were on a diet of 90% protein, some 90% fat, and some 90% carbs. The subjects on the 90% protein diet lost 0.6 pounds per day, the ones on the 90% fat diet lost 0.9 pounds per day, and the ones on 90% carbs actually gained a bit."

tennisdude2004

ITT whales giving nutrition advices on how to loose weight

Wow, you're a jerk.

I'd rather listen to someone who's still overweight and losing than an idiot that posts things with no basis in reality like:

Ketogenic diet is not about cutting on calories.... you gonna loose weight even by eating more calories then your bmr+actv requires.

... Which is absolutely false ... Or this gem:

keto diet = about 10-15g carbs a day MAX

... also completely untrue. A ketogenic diet is any carbohydrate amount that keeps one in ketosis. Typically under 50g a day, but in many cases up to 100g or more. It depends on the individual and their metabolism.

You further state this kind of brilliance:

Again, the real Keto diet is pretty much zero Carbs. You are left with eating:

-Eggs
-Meat
-Fish
-Cheddar Cheese

... which again, is an incredibly simplistic and ignorant opinion/view of the diet. There are many more fat choices than those, and a healthy ketogenic diet includes abundant vegetable sources.

It doesnt work because you eat less, it works because your Body, specially your brain needs Carbohydrates to function properly.

Not quite true again. In the non-keto-adapted individual the body/brain rely on GLUCOSE (which the body eventually converts all dietary carbohydrate to) but in a keto-adapted individual it prefers ketones and needs roughly 10-15g of glucose to function, which it can obtain in the absence of dietary carbohydrate via gluconeogenesis.

In short, your body is gonna start burning fat super SUPER fast because there are no Carbs to burn.

Your body will burn fat only marginally-faster than with the same caloric deficit from any other diet, in all honesty. It's just often easier for a keto-adapted individual to reduce calories as they're often more-satiated. It is, however, protein-sparing - as such research indicates it burns less lean-muscle while in a deficit than a non-keto caloric deficit might.

Of course, it shouldn`t surprise me that you make a jerk comment like the above when your idea of dietary advice is:

Just stop being lazy and change that and you will loose weight much faster.

Lol - great post.

psuLemon

In for the science.

heybales

I just started trying Keto a few weeks ago. My husband has been using it off and on for a couple years and he has lost roughly 50 lbs. I'm not trying to lose weight, but rather build muscle. I don't know all the details of this diet...I'm still researching/learning. Basically, when you're in ketosis, your body burns fat for energy instead of carbs. This makes the amount of fat your body retains decrease. When you eat carbs, your body burns those first and stores the fat. You still want to keep your calories under control with keto, but you will want to eat more fat as that is what you are using for energy. Like I said, I'm pretty new to it so I'm definitely not an expert. I just know it seems to be working really well for my husband. I think it's important to remember that everybody is different as as metabolism etc, so what works really well for one person may not work at all for someone else.

if you eat carbs and are in a deficit they do not get stored as fat…why does everyone think that carbs magically turn into fat..???

I would question going almost zero carb and trying to build muscles at the same time, as that sounds counter productive to me …but I am sure some have accomplished it...

Plus the often quoted idea that unless in that state, you don't burn primarily fat.

Most don't realize that you burn primarily fat until you get up to mid-aerobic level where 50% of carbs is used, and during exercise that ratio isn't going to change because of what you eat anyway.

Or the idea that after a meal, the fat is auto-stored rather than used for immediate energy use.

GuyIncognito123

You'll find the ones most vocal about it and have everything negative to say - have never done it properly.
It just works, that's why people continue to do it.

MFP (the loudest message board members) are against low carb diets and are quick to jump in telling you not to do it (as they struggle to lose a pound a week). And will try and scare you into changing your mind.

It's a diet, not a life style. If you want to lose up to a pound a day, I say go for it - but not on your own. But talk to your doctor, get a coach and do it properly.

If you want to change your life style you need to stop dieting, count your calories and get active.

heybales

And I'd like to add, the part that I was confused about is whether the body burns carb or fat on just calorie deficit and not ketosis... you get what I mean? Just like how I always hear people say that exercising less than 30 min is useless and practically does nothing for fat burning because the body is just using up glycogen stores in the first 30 mins. But then what about the theories of 'move more' and 'any exercise is good'? Yeah that's pretty much the confusion I'm talking about.

Body keeps burning fat and carbs on calorie deficit.

Mainly fat when at rest, and increasing amount of carbs as exercise intensity goes up.

Usually about first 30 min of real exercise is slightly more carb ratio burn then what eventually it lowers to - but it is NOT total carb burn. It may be 50% fat / carbs, lowering to eventually 60% fat / 40% carbs doing the same effort.

Going in fasted or in ketosis usually means you start out at the 60/40 ratio - but you really aren't changing that ratio in any meaningful way by your diet. And you add up the difference is fat burned and it's ain't much.

What happens though is when you eat your next meal, the carbs are sent off to fill those stores in the muscle (after liver is topped off).
If you are in a deficit, there is less food to fill those stores with, so that process of elevated insulin to get those carbs to the muscles stops sooner than when not in a diet, because you are eating less.

Now you've gone back in to normal resting fat burning mode sooner than you would have eating at maintenance.

In ketosis though, there isn't much of any carbs to send off to muscles, so you are back quicker. Slowly but surely though the excess unused protein is converted to glycogen and then stored off in the muscles.
Eat too much in ketosis though and top those off, and that excess would be stored as fat too.

ndj1979

You'll find the ones most vocal about it and have everything negative to say - have never done it properly.
It just works, that's why people continue to do it.

MFP (the loudest message board members) are against low carb diets and are quick to jump in telling you not to do it (as they struggle to lose a pound a week). And will try and scare you into changing your mind.

It's a diet, not a life style. If you want to lose up to a pound a day, I say go for it - but not on your own. But talk to your doctor, get a coach and do it properly.

If you want to change your life style you need to stop dieting, count your calories and get active.

so low carb is the only way to lose a pound per week?

I think what people are saying is that you can lose a pound per week and eat all the foods that you want, and not restrict anything...

tennisdude2004

You'll find the ones most vocal about it and have everything negative to say - have never done it properly.
It just works, that's why people continue to do it.

MFP (the loudest message board members) are against low carb diets and are quick to jump in telling you not to do it (as they struggle to lose a pound a week). And will try and scare you into changing your mind.

It's a diet, not a life style. If you want to lose up to a pound a day, I say go for it - but not on your own. But talk to your doctor, get a coach and do it properly.

If you want to change your life style you need to stop dieting, count your calories and get active.

so low carb is the only way to lose a pound per week?

I think what people are saying is that you can lose a pound per week and eat all the foods that you want, and not restrict anything...

Yes you are right you can do it both ways (equally as effective) consciously restrict carbs or consciously restrict calories.

albertabeefy

Body keeps burning fat and carbs on calorie deficit.

Mainly fat when at rest, and increasing amount of carbs as exercise intensity goes up.

Usually about first 30 min of real exercise is slightly more carb ratio burn then what eventually it lowers to - but it is NOT total carb burn. It may be 50% fat / carbs, lowering to eventually 60% fat / 40% carbs doing the same effort.

Going in fasted or in ketosis usually means you start out at the 60/40 ratio - but you really aren't changing that ratio in any meaningful way by your diet. And you add up the difference is fat burned and it's ain't much.

What happens though is when you eat your next meal, the carbs are sent off to fill those stores in the muscle (after liver is topped off).
If you are in a deficit, there is less food to fill those stores with, so that process of elevated insulin to get those carbs to the muscles stops sooner than when not in a diet, because you are eating less.

Now you've gone back in to normal resting fat burning mode sooner than you would have eating at maintenance.

In ketosis though, there isn't much of any carbs to send off to muscles, so you are back quicker. Slowly but surely though the excess unused protein is converted to glycogen and then stored off in the muscles.
Eat too much in ketosis though and top those off, and that excess would be stored as fat too.

This isn't entirely true - the physiology/biochemsitry changes IF the person is keto-adapted vs. just being in ketosis.

When keto-adapted the body utilizes primarily ketolysis/lipolysis for cellular respiration, NOT glycolysis.

However the problem comes if you try a low-carb diet for weight loss, enter ketosis, but do NOT become keto-adapted. Which happens when people carb-up, cheat, etc.

Myself - I lost 70lbs of FAT in the first three months of a ketogenic diet without being able to exercise much at all. The first two weeks was NO exercise. Then 2 minutes a day, then 2 minutes twice a day, then after 3 months I was up to 10 minutes, twice a day. And at 2,800 calories daily I lost 70lbs in three months. Why? Because I was keto-adapted and the diet itself gave me a big metabolic advantage compared to what I'd been eating.

Research shows that ketogenic diets provide just as much or more weight-loss as low-fat or low-calorie diets, but also improve triglycerides more than low-fat diets, are protein/muscle-sparing and in many cases result in greater weight-loss and better overall body composition. The research shows the diet is more successful for those who are insulin-resistant as well.

psuLemon

Body keeps burning fat and carbs on calorie deficit.

Mainly fat when at rest, and increasing amount of carbs as exercise intensity goes up.

Usually about first 30 min of real exercise is slightly more carb ratio burn then what eventually it lowers to - but it is NOT total carb burn. It may be 50% fat / carbs, lowering to eventually 60% fat / 40% carbs doing the same effort.

Going in fasted or in ketosis usually means you start out at the 60/40 ratio - but you really aren't changing that ratio in any meaningful way by your diet. And you add up the difference is fat burned and it's ain't much.

What happens though is when you eat your next meal, the carbs are sent off to fill those stores in the muscle (after liver is topped off).
If you are in a deficit, there is less food to fill those stores with, so that process of elevated insulin to get those carbs to the muscles stops sooner than when not in a diet, because you are eating less.

Now you've gone back in to normal resting fat burning mode sooner than you would have eating at maintenance.

In ketosis though, there isn't much of any carbs to send off to muscles, so you are back quicker. Slowly but surely though the excess unused protein is converted to glycogen and then stored off in the muscles.
Eat too much in ketosis though and top those off, and that excess would be stored as fat too.

This isn't entirely true - the physiology/biochemsitry changes IF the person is keto-adapted vs. just being in ketosis.

When keto-adapted the body utilizes primarily ketolysis/lipolysis for cellular respiration, NOT glycolysis.

However the problem comes if you try a low-carb diet for weight loss, enter ketosis, but do NOT become keto-adapted. Which happens when people carb-up, cheat, etc.

Myself - I lost 70lbs of FAT in the first three months of a ketogenic diet without being able to exercise much at all. The first two weeks was NO exercise. Then 2 minutes a day, then 2 minutes twice a day, then after 3 months I was up to 10 minutes, twice a day. And at 2,800 calories daily I lost 70lbs in three months. Why? Because I was keto-adapted and the diet itself gave me a big metabolic advantage compared to what I'd been eating.

Research shows that ketogenic diets provide just as much or more weight-loss as low-fat or low-calorie diets, but also improve triglycerides more than low-fat diets, are protein/muscle-sparing and in many cases result in greater weight-loss and better overall body composition. The research shows the diet is more successful for those who are insulin-resistant as well.

Your telling me that you lose ~ 6 lbs of fat a week? That would mean your weekly deficit would 21,000 over your TDEE. That equates you burning around 5800 calories a day. Can I ask if you have dexa, hydro static or another various of proof to back that claim? I am intrigued.

psuLemon

You'll find the ones most vocal about it and have everything negative to say - have never done it properly.
It just works, that's why people continue to do it.

MFP (the loudest message board members) are against low carb diets and are quick to jump in telling you not to do it (as they struggle to lose a pound a week). And will try and scare you into changing your mind.

It's a diet, not a life style. If you want to lose up to a pound a day, I say go for it - but not on your own. But talk to your doctor, get a coach and do it properly.

If you want to change your life style you need to stop dieting, count your calories and get active.

I am not against low-carb if there is a requirement for it or it will increase diet adherence. The issue I have and many others have, is when people talk about low carb like it defies science. Regardless if you do low carb or moderate carb, it still takes a deficit of 3500 calories to lose 1 lb a week. If you are not losing 1 lb a week, then there is a calculation issue or other issue. In many cases, people change several things at once and it's hard to correlation what was the improvement. Common issues are not using a food scale, not consistent, over estimating calories burn, or not estimating TDEE correctly... and more.

Personally, my wife has to be low carb and gluten free. It comes with her medical condition (POTS). But just because she has this issue, doesn't mean the same program will apply for the rest of our community. Personally, if I do not eat 200gs of carbs a day, my workouts highly suffer. I feel like crap and overall performance goes in the crapper. I chose a moderate carb approach, as well as a moderate calorie deficit. I eat 2500 calories, with macros at 40% carbs, 30% protein and 30% fats.

What I would like to see more is if you maintain protein, what is the difference between low carb/high fat vs moderate fat/moderate carbs. The few studies I have seen, which I will see if I can provide, have suggested muscle retention is virtually the same.

tennisdude2004

You'll find the ones most vocal about it and have everything negative to say - have never done it properly.
It just works, that's why people continue to do it.

MFP (the loudest message board members) are against low carb diets and are quick to jump in telling you not to do it (as they struggle to lose a pound a week). And will try and scare you into changing your mind.

It's a diet, not a life style. If you want to lose up to a pound a day, I say go for it - but not on your own. But talk to your doctor, get a coach and do it properly.

If you want to change your life style you need to stop dieting, count your calories and get active.

I am not against low-carb if there is a requirement for it or it will increase diet adherence. The issue I have and many others have, is when people talk about low carb like it defies science. Regardless if you do low carb or moderate carb, it still takes a deficit of 3500 calories to lose 1 lb a week. If you are not losing 1 lb a week, then there is a calculation issue or other issue. In many cases, people change several things at once and it's hard to correlation what was the improvement. Common issues are not using a food scale, not consistent, over estimating calories burn, or not estimating TDEE correctly... and more.

Personally, my wife has to be low carb and gluten free. It comes with her medical condition (POTS). But just because she has this issue, doesn't mean the same program will apply for the rest of our community. Personally, if I do not eat 200gs of carbs a day, my workouts highly suffer. I feel like crap and overall performance goes in the crapper. I chose a moderate carb approach, as well as a moderate calorie deficit. I eat 2500 calories, with macros at 40% carbs, 30% protein and 30% fats.

What I would like to see more is if you maintain protein, what is the difference between low carb/high fat vs moderate fat/moderate carbs. The few studies I have seen, which I will see if I can provide, have suggested muscle retention is virtually the same.

I really love the fact that some people have issues with diets they do not follow themselves. I don't personally follow calorie counting but I would never have an issue with other people following it.

Low carb diets don't deify science in any way - not sure what your source of information is (I hope it's not some of the other members on this forum). Lol

If anything low carb diets follow science the same as moderation eating (calorie deficit). My personal view is for me LCHF is a calorie controlled hack. My appetite is controlled I rarely eat over calories (without having to count them) and have lost about 6 - 8 lbs a month (a little slower the last month as I have not been training much).

I eat meat, veg, a little fruit. I get all of my micro nutrients and if I fancy a treat I'll have it.

Maybe a better understanding of the benefit of low carbs for each individual will help you stress less about people eating them.

Acg67

Myself - I lost 70lbs of FAT in the first three months of a ketogenic diet without being able to exercise much at all. The first two weeks was NO exercise. Then 2 minutes a day, then 2 minutes twice a day, then after 3 months I was up to 10 minutes, twice a day. And at 2,800 calories daily I lost 70lbs in three months. Why? Because I was keto-adapted and the diet itself gave me a big metabolic advantage compared to what I'd been eating.

Research shows that ketogenic diets provide just as much or more weight-loss as low-fat or low-calorie diets, but also improve triglycerides more than low-fat diets, are protein/muscle-sparing and in many cases result in greater weight-loss and better overall body composition. The research shows the diet is more successful for those who are insulin-resistant as well.

Hmmm how did you measure the composition of weightloss to determine you lost 70lbs of fat in 3 months? What was your total weightloss over that time period?

Leonidas_meets_Spartacus

I lost about 36 lbs of fat in 3 months being in state of ketosis and after getting Keto adapted. I ate way more calories than what MFP was recommending me to do lose 1.5 lbs a week. All the stuff you see on the internet is generic formulas. Does people following Keto are magically different? No. But does body use a different mechanism to expend energy? Absolutely. The stuff you see here, is mostly from people who have no interest in low carbs/ ketosis and assume things. I am a firm believer in "you should do what works for you" and do your own experiments with different food groups. I don't recommend strangers on internet what to do or not to do with out knowing their history or body. I work closely with the guys who train NFL players in the off season, getting tested for various health and fitness indicators every two weeks. I am not sure if others will get same results as me, but it does help me and I can't be happier about the results I got.

likitisplit

I lost about 36 lbs of fat in 3 months being in state of ketosis and after getting Keto adapted. I ate way more calories than what MFP was recommending me to do lose 1.5 lbs a week. All the stuff you see on the internet is generic formulas.

Yeah. so did I. I just cut calories though.

For the first 4-6 weeks, I was losing around 4 pounds a week, though I was set to lose 0.5 pounds a week.

Leonidas_meets_Spartacus

I lost about 36 lbs of fat in 3 months being in state of ketosis and after getting Keto adapted. I ate way more calories than what MFP was recommending me to do lose 1.5 lbs a week. All the stuff you see on the internet is generic formulas.

Yeah. so did I. I just cut calories though.

For the first 4-6 weeks, I was losing around 4 pounds a week, though I was set to lose 0.5 pounds a week.

Good for you, if you lost all the fat. Congrats. Do what works for you.

psuLemon

I really love the fact that some people have issues with diets they do not follow themselves. I don't personally follow calorie counting but I would never have an issue with other people following it.

Low carb diets don't deify science in any way - not sure what your source of information is (I hope it's not some of the other members on this forum). Lol

If anything low carb diets follow science the same as moderation eating (calorie deficit). My personal view is for me LCHF is a calorie controlled hack. My appetite is controlled I rarely eat over calories (without having to count them) and have lost about 6 - 8 lbs a month (a little slower the last month as I have not been training much).

I eat meat, veg, a little fruit. I get all of my micro nutrients and if I fancy a treat I'll have it.

Maybe a better understanding of the benefit of low carbs for each individual will help you stress less about people eating them.

I fully understand the benefits of low carb. In fact, I have helped my wife to get set up on a low carb diet. Where I have issue is when other members, swear XX diet is better than XX other diet because "insert reason". The best diet or lifestyle for one person is the diet they can adhere to. Low carb is not better than any other approach, outside of an individuals need. Like i mentioned, if we are going to compares two diets, lets look at low carb/high fat vs moderate fat/moderate carb and sustain protein levels. It's very well known that protein + resistance training = muscle retention. No one is going to dispute that.

tennisdude2004

I really love the fact that some people have issues with diets they do not follow themselves. I don't personally follow calorie counting but I would never have an issue with other people following it.

Low carb diets don't deify science in any way - not sure what your source of information is (I hope it's not some of the other members on this forum). Lol

If anything low carb diets follow science the same as moderation eating (calorie deficit). My personal view is for me LCHF is a calorie controlled hack. My appetite is controlled I rarely eat over calories (without having to count them) and have lost about 6 - 8 lbs a month (a little slower the last month as I have not been training much).

I eat meat, veg, a little fruit. I get all of my micro nutrients and if I fancy a treat I'll have it.

Maybe a better understanding of the benefit of low carbs for each individual will help you stress less about people eating them.

I fully understand the benefits of low carb. In fact, I have helped my wife to get set up on a low carb diet. Where I have issue is when other members, swear XX diet is better than XX other diet because "insert reason". The best diet or lifestyle for one person is the diet they can adhere to Low carb is not better than any other approach, outside of an individuals need. Like i mentioned, if we are going to compares two diets, lets look at low carb/high fat vs moderate fat/moderate carb and sustain protein levels. It's very well known that protein + resistance training = muscle retention. No one is going to dispute that.

On this point we agree 100%.

What annoys me is when someone has made the choice of LCHF and people try and talk them out of it claiming LCHF is not as good as moderation or calorie counting, because they tried it and it didn't work for them.

Personally I find it a bit desperate. I certainly would not push LCHF on someone who is asking for advice on moderate to high carb diets. In fact quite the opposite.

We also agree on protein / resistance training for muscle retention.

In fact the only difference is that if we were out for lunch, you'd have the last muffin and I'll finish the bowl of cashews. Lol