Dairy Alarmism
Replies
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I can't find it anywhere, but he has this whole scale that literally had "gross looking things" on the bottom that listed out the ethics he identified with each category of being. It was so on the mark that it almost wasn't funny...just like 90% of his "life is hell" stuff.
Yeah, I tried to Google it too with no luck. If you find it, post it to my profile page. I love Matt Groening!0 -
And that was my point.
I have only had chicken, turkey, and duck, but would try robins or quail. Honestly, I'd eat any bird if it was cooked right, or I'm hungry.
According to Audubon, robins are delicious.
Cows are yummy. And even though I put pigs with cats & dogs, so far as intelligence goes, I eat them too. Because bacon.
Today I learned that cows are smarter than crows...For me it goes like this:
Humans > Primates & Dolphins > dogs & cats & pigs & horses > other mammals > birds, fish reptiles > insects and gross-looking creatures
Why?
Intelligence/Reason
For me there is no distinction, a different species is a different species. We humans reign over them, if we want their flesh or milk for our food we'll take it.
However, there is such a thing as reigning gently and without abusing our privilege. I believe in that too...
Yummy or not (probably not), the intelligence of crows has been estimated as being comparable to that of great apes and are among the few non-human species to use tools.
So, would you still eat them?0 -
Not you, WendyTerry. The idea that humans have dominion over animals and that human life is more precious is a very Biblical idea.
I agree with that. It's relative and subjective.We are people, so we decide. Human lives are precious.
I never really understood why human lives are precious and other lives aren't ...
It is not (imho) a black and white precious vs not precious. Rather, I think in terms of a sliding scale of "preciousness", even within the class of "humans". Myself and my immediate family are most precious to me, closely followed by extended family and close friends, then even more extended family, distant friends, friends of friends etc etc... Animals come in at various places on the scale depending on if they are my dog, if they are intelligent (primates and dolphins rate high, for example), if they are cute (
), if they are bred for food (i.e cows and pigs) etc. Some bacteria are beneficial (we don't want to kill those) while others cause disease (kill 'em!).
So all life has some level of preciousness. But sometimes our needs/desires will put their perceived importance below a threshold where we think it OK to kill them. Even in war or self defense, we (as a society, in general) think it OK to kill other humans. That threshold will be different for different individuals: some of us think killing cows for food is acceptable to satisfy our need for food; others think we should not do so. My personal threshold on this issue has changed at least twice, from becoming vegetarian many years ago, and switching back to meat eating 8 years later.
tl;dr: it's complicated!
What I don't and will never agree with is the objective statement that one species is more precious than another.
As to whether I would save the cow or owl, I don't know. It would break my heart to not save them both. I don't believe one more important than the other and I don't know any way I could make that decision. So instead of letting both die I guess I'd just have to flip a coin and live with it. I hope I will never have to make such a decision.
And as I said above, despite being a vegetarian myself, I'm not saying humans shouldn't eat meat. It's natural and it's a valid dietary choice. That doesn't mean we're somehow more precious than the animals we eat any more than a crocodile is more precious than a bird it makes its snack. It's just the hard truth of the food chain.
I think it's funny that an atheist is using something that comes from the Bible, though. :-)
Which bit of that came from the Bible? I don't remember too much emphasis on fuzzy logic in there.0 -
Not you, WendyTerry. The idea that humans have dominion over animals and that human life is more precious is a very Biblical idea.
I agree with that. It's relative and subjective.We are people, so we decide. Human lives are precious.
I never really understood why human lives are precious and other lives aren't ...
It is not (imho) a black and white precious vs not precious. Rather, I think in terms of a sliding scale of "preciousness", even within the class of "humans". Myself and my immediate family are most precious to me, closely followed by extended family and close friends, then even more extended family, distant friends, friends of friends etc etc... Animals come in at various places on the scale depending on if they are my dog, if they are intelligent (primates and dolphins rate high, for example), if they are cute ( ), if they are bred for food (i.e cows and pigs) etc. Some bacteria are beneficial (we don't want to kill those) while others cause disease (kill 'em!).
So all life has some level of preciousness. But sometimes our needs/desires will put their perceived importance below a threshold where we think it OK to kill them. Even in war or self defense, we (as a society, in general) think it OK to kill other humans. That threshold will be different for different individuals: some of us think killing cows for food is acceptable to satisfy our need for food; others think we should not do so. My personal threshold on this issue has changed at least twice, from becoming vegetarian many years ago, and switching back to meat eating 8 years later.
tl;dr: it's complicated!
What I don't and will never agree with is the objective statement that one species is more precious than another.
As to whether I would save the cow or owl, I don't know. It would break my heart to not save them both. I don't believe one more important than the other and I don't know any way I could make that decision. So instead of letting both die I guess I'd just have to flip a coin and live with it. I hope I will never have to make such a decision.
And as I said above, despite being a vegetarian myself, I'm not saying humans shouldn't eat meat. It's natural and it's a valid dietary choice. That doesn't mean we're somehow more precious than the animals we eat any more than a crocodile is more precious than a bird it makes its snack. It's just the hard truth of the food chain.
I think it's funny that an atheist is using something that comes from the Bible, though. :-)
Which bit of that came from the Bible? I don't remember too much emphasis on fuzzy logic in there.
I always took the Bible to support a more stewardship relationship. After all, Noah took all the animals. Not just the cute, sentient ones.0 -
And that was my point.
I have only had chicken, turkey, and duck, but would try robins or quail. Honestly, I'd eat any bird if it was cooked right, or I'm hungry.
According to Audubon, robins are delicious.
Cows are yummy. And even though I put pigs with cats & dogs, so far as intelligence goes, I eat them too. Because bacon.
Today I learned that cows are smarter than crows...For me it goes like this:
Humans > Primates & Dolphins > dogs & cats & pigs & horses > other mammals > birds, fish reptiles > insects and gross-looking creatures
Why?
Intelligence/Reason
For me there is no distinction, a different species is a different species. We humans reign over them, if we want their flesh or milk for our food we'll take it.
However, there is such a thing as reigning gently and without abusing our privilege. I believe in that too...
Yummy or not (probably not), the intelligence of crows has been estimated as being comparable to that of great apes and are among the few non-human species to use tools.
So, would you still eat them?
I would be leary of crows for a variety of reasons. Honestly, I forgot about crows. Yeah, to me they should be up there with dogs and cats. But if I were in a life and death situation, I would probably eat any animal other than a dolphin or an ape. I think those are where I'd draw the line. But even that line might move if it were someone else that dressed the animal and cooked the meat.
FWIW, my list was not intended to be exhaustive. I am definitely open to making amendments if provided additional information.
Hell, TBH, I'd have survived the Donner party even. 0 -
what about the animals that only lived in north america? how'd he get those ones?
Not you, WendyTerry. The idea that humans have dominion over animals and that human life is more precious is a very Biblical idea.
I agree with that. It's relative and subjective.We are people, so we decide. Human lives are precious.
I never really understood why human lives are precious and other lives aren't ...
It is not (imho) a black and white precious vs not precious. Rather, I think in terms of a sliding scale of "preciousness", even within the class of "humans". Myself and my immediate family are most precious to me, closely followed by extended family and close friends, then even more extended family, distant friends, friends of friends etc etc... Animals come in at various places on the scale depending on if they are my dog, if they are intelligent (primates and dolphins rate high, for example), if they are cute ( ), if they are bred for food (i.e cows and pigs) etc. Some bacteria are beneficial (we don't want to kill those) while others cause disease (kill 'em!).
So all life has some level of preciousness. But sometimes our needs/desires will put their perceived importance below a threshold where we think it OK to kill them. Even in war or self defense, we (as a society, in general) think it OK to kill other humans. That threshold will be different for different individuals: some of us think killing cows for food is acceptable to satisfy our need for food; others think we should not do so. My personal threshold on this issue has changed at least twice, from becoming vegetarian many years ago, and switching back to meat eating 8 years later.
tl;dr: it's complicated!
What I don't and will never agree with is the objective statement that one species is more precious than another.
As to whether I would save the cow or owl, I don't know. It would break my heart to not save them both. I don't believe one more important than the other and I don't know any way I could make that decision. So instead of letting both die I guess I'd just have to flip a coin and live with it. I hope I will never have to make such a decision.
And as I said above, despite being a vegetarian myself, I'm not saying humans shouldn't eat meat. It's natural and it's a valid dietary choice. That doesn't mean we're somehow more precious than the animals we eat any more than a crocodile is more precious than a bird it makes its snack. It's just the hard truth of the food chain.
I think it's funny that an atheist is using something that comes from the Bible, though. :-)
Which bit of that came from the Bible? I don't remember too much emphasis on fuzzy logic in there.
I always took the Bible to support a more stewardship relationship. After all, Noah took all the animals. Not just the cute, sentient ones.0 -
Not you, WendyTerry. The idea that humans have dominion over animals and that human life is more precious is a very Biblical idea.
I agree with that. It's relative and subjective.We are people, so we decide. Human lives are precious.
I never really understood why human lives are precious and other lives aren't ...
It is not (imho) a black and white precious vs not precious. Rather, I think in terms of a sliding scale of "preciousness", even within the class of "humans". Myself and my immediate family are most precious to me, closely followed by extended family and close friends, then even more extended family, distant friends, friends of friends etc etc... Animals come in at various places on the scale depending on if they are my dog, if they are intelligent (primates and dolphins rate high, for example), if they are cute ( ), if they are bred for food (i.e cows and pigs) etc. Some bacteria are beneficial (we don't want to kill those) while others cause disease (kill 'em!).
So all life has some level of preciousness. But sometimes our needs/desires will put their perceived importance below a threshold where we think it OK to kill them. Even in war or self defense, we (as a society, in general) think it OK to kill other humans. That threshold will be different for different individuals: some of us think killing cows for food is acceptable to satisfy our need for food; others think we should not do so. My personal threshold on this issue has changed at least twice, from becoming vegetarian many years ago, and switching back to meat eating 8 years later.
tl;dr: it's complicated!
What I don't and will never agree with is the objective statement that one species is more precious than another.
As to whether I would save the cow or owl, I don't know. It would break my heart to not save them both. I don't believe one more important than the other and I don't know any way I could make that decision. So instead of letting both die I guess I'd just have to flip a coin and live with it. I hope I will never have to make such a decision.
And as I said above, despite being a vegetarian myself, I'm not saying humans shouldn't eat meat. It's natural and it's a valid dietary choice. That doesn't mean we're somehow more precious than the animals we eat any more than a crocodile is more precious than a bird it makes its snack. It's just the hard truth of the food chain.
I think it's funny that an atheist is using something that comes from the Bible, though. :-)
Which bit of that came from the Bible? I don't remember too much emphasis on fuzzy logic in there.
I always took the Bible to support a more stewardship relationship. After all, Noah took all the animals. Not just the cute, sentient ones.
But he left out the unicorns and the dinosaurs. :sad:0 -
The interpretations I've seen from devout religious people of Genesis is that humans are more important and the animals exist for us to use as we see fit. There are two creation stories, but they both kind of support this view.
Not you, WendyTerry. The idea that humans have dominion over animals and that human life is more precious is a very Biblical idea.
I agree with that. It's relative and subjective.We are people, so we decide. Human lives are precious.
I never really understood why human lives are precious and other lives aren't ...
It is not (imho) a black and white precious vs not precious. Rather, I think in terms of a sliding scale of "preciousness", even within the class of "humans". Myself and my immediate family are most precious to me, closely followed by extended family and close friends, then even more extended family, distant friends, friends of friends etc etc... Animals come in at various places on the scale depending on if they are my dog, if they are intelligent (primates and dolphins rate high, for example), if they are cute ( ), if they are bred for food (i.e cows and pigs) etc. Some bacteria are beneficial (we don't want to kill those) while others cause disease (kill 'em!).
So all life has some level of preciousness. But sometimes our needs/desires will put their perceived importance below a threshold where we think it OK to kill them. Even in war or self defense, we (as a society, in general) think it OK to kill other humans. That threshold will be different for different individuals: some of us think killing cows for food is acceptable to satisfy our need for food; others think we should not do so. My personal threshold on this issue has changed at least twice, from becoming vegetarian many years ago, and switching back to meat eating 8 years later.
tl;dr: it's complicated!
What I don't and will never agree with is the objective statement that one species is more precious than another.
As to whether I would save the cow or owl, I don't know. It would break my heart to not save them both. I don't believe one more important than the other and I don't know any way I could make that decision. So instead of letting both die I guess I'd just have to flip a coin and live with it. I hope I will never have to make such a decision.
And as I said above, despite being a vegetarian myself, I'm not saying humans shouldn't eat meat. It's natural and it's a valid dietary choice. That doesn't mean we're somehow more precious than the animals we eat any more than a crocodile is more precious than a bird it makes its snack. It's just the hard truth of the food chain.
I think it's funny that an atheist is using something that comes from the Bible, though. :-)
Which bit of that came from the Bible? I don't remember too much emphasis on fuzzy logic in there.
I always took the Bible to support a more stewardship relationship. After all, Noah took all the animals. Not just the cute, sentient ones.
I've actually heard people say you can't be a good Christian is you are vegetarian and refuse to wear fur and leather.0 -
Yeah my cat will drink milk if it is available (among other things) lol, but afterwards she ends up sick with diarrhea.
We had some kittens when I was a kid. They'd been off the teet for a couple of months. My brother and I thought it would be nice to give them some milk so we went to the refrigerator and poured a nice cold saucer of milk for them. All five kittens enjoyed the hell out of it. It was a warm spring day, so my brother and I left them to their adorable kitten devices while we went off to do whatever my brother and I found amusing at 4 and 7.
An hour or so later, we came back to see how the kittens were because... kids love kittens and checking up on them is what we did often. Something else that we did often was give them hugs because... kitten hugs are awesome and our kittens liked us.
They turned out the be the grossest hugs that ever my brother and I had experienced to date or ever after (at least I hope my brother isn't into that sort of thing but if he is... it's not my place to determine what is right and wrong for another grown adult to do in the bedroom... or bathroom but I digress).
What happened next left our shirts sodden and horribly smells. We had literally hugged the poo right out of our little kittens. Now were weren't some Rockwellian type kids, we were gross and often had an antagonistic relationship. Much to the horror of my now adult sensibilities, we turned those little kittens into the worst kind of squirt guns you can imagine (at least I hope it's the worst kind you can imagine...).
Yeah, it was gross but I learned an important science lesson that day. Some mammals stop producing the lactase enzyme and what will happen to their digestive system can become rather horrific. I'm glad I still produce it. I like milk, cheese, ice cream and even the Gelato that I tried for the first time yesterday due to constantly seeing the "Gelato cleanse" thread.
Moral of the story: Some lessons that you learn if life are just downright sh***y.
(no kittens were harmed 30 years ago, the lived to be great mousers, only a year ago did the last one die as a three legged, one eyed female that hunted up until her very last summer. Love you pebbles.)0 -
Yeah my cat will drink milk if it is available (among other things) lol, but afterwards she ends up sick with diarrhea.
We had some kittens when I was a kid. They'd been off the teet for a couple of months. My brother and I thought it would be nice to give them some milk so we went to the refrigerator and poured a nice cold saucer of milk for them. All five kittens enjoyed the hell out of it. It was a warm spring day, so my brother and I left them to their adorable kitten devices while we went off to do whatever my brother and I found amusing at 4 and 7.
An hour or so later, we came back to see how the kittens were because... kids love kittens and checking up on them is what we did often. Something else that we did often was give them hugs because... kitten hugs are awesome and our kittens liked us.
They turned out the be the grossest hugs that ever my brother and I had experienced to date or ever after (at least I hope my brother isn't into that sort of thing but if he is... it's not my place to determine what is right and wrong for another grown adult to do in the bedroom... or bathroom but I digress).
What happened next left our shirts sodden and horribly smells. We had literally hugged the poo right out of our little kittens. Now were weren't some Rockwellian type kids, we were gross and often had an antagonistic relationship. Much to the horror of my now adult sensibilities, we turned those little kittens into the worst kind of squirt guns you can imagine (at least I hope it's the worst kind you can imagine...).
Yeah, it was gross but I learned an important science lesson that day. Some mammals stop producing the lactase enzyme and what will happen to their digestive system can become rather horrific. I'm glad I still produce it. I like milk, cheese, ice cream and even the Gelato that I tried for the first time yesterday due to constantly seeing the "Gelato cleanse" thread.
Moral of the story: Some lessons that you learn if life are just downright sh***y.
(no kittens were harmed 30 years ago, the lived to be great mousers, only a year ago did the last one die as a three legged, one eyed female that hunted up until her very last summer. Love you pebbles.)
Nutrition scientists do not often use a feline model....
LOL.0 -
Milk:
White People: Most of you can drink milk. If you like it and don't experience negative effects, go for it.
Every other kind of people: Most of you are lactose intolerant so milk can cause negative effects. If you experience those effects, don't drink it. Otherwise, go for it.
Very simple.0 -
Milk:
White People: Most of you can drink milk. If you like it and don't experience negative effects, go for it.
Every other kind of people: Most of you are lactose intolerant so milk can cause negative effects. If you experience those effects, don't drink it. Otherwise, go for it.
Very simple.
:drinker:0 -
Christians come up with all sorts of things in the Bible to support whatever:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_vegetarianism0 -
In to read later when I have popcorn.0
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Not you, WendyTerry. The idea that humans have dominion over animals and that human life is more precious is a very Biblical idea.
I agree with that. It's relative and subjective.We are people, so we decide. Human lives are precious.
I never really understood why human lives are precious and other lives aren't ...
It is not (imho) a black and white precious vs not precious. Rather, I think in terms of a sliding scale of "preciousness", even within the class of "humans". Myself and my immediate family are most precious to me, closely followed by extended family and close friends, then even more extended family, distant friends, friends of friends etc etc... Animals come in at various places on the scale depending on if they are my dog, if they are intelligent (primates and dolphins rate high, for example), if they are cute ( ), if they are bred for food (i.e cows and pigs) etc. Some bacteria are beneficial (we don't want to kill those) while others cause disease (kill 'em!).
So all life has some level of preciousness. But sometimes our needs/desires will put their perceived importance below a threshold where we think it OK to kill them. Even in war or self defense, we (as a society, in general) think it OK to kill other humans. That threshold will be different for different individuals: some of us think killing cows for food is acceptable to satisfy our need for food; others think we should not do so. My personal threshold on this issue has changed at least twice, from becoming vegetarian many years ago, and switching back to meat eating 8 years later.
tl;dr: it's complicated!
What I don't and will never agree with is the objective statement that one species is more precious than another.
As to whether I would save the cow or owl, I don't know. It would break my heart to not save them both. I don't believe one more important than the other and I don't know any way I could make that decision. So instead of letting both die I guess I'd just have to flip a coin and live with it. I hope I will never have to make such a decision.
And as I said above, despite being a vegetarian myself, I'm not saying humans shouldn't eat meat. It's natural and it's a valid dietary choice. That doesn't mean we're somehow more precious than the animals we eat any more than a crocodile is more precious than a bird it makes its snack. It's just the hard truth of the food chain.
I think it's funny that an atheist is using something that comes from the Bible, though. :-)
Which bit of that came from the Bible? I don't remember too much emphasis on fuzzy logic in there.
No, it's really not. It's innate nature. Every animal species believes its own species to be dominant. That's how the organization of animals have established themselves. A pack of coyotes could overpower a few grey wolves, but the grey wolves pack together and hunt down coyotes to establish grey wolf dominance over them.
Humans are no different. Our intelligence and evolutionary advantages for tool creation have enabled us to establish ourselves as the dominant species on Earth. Therefore, humans are number one (or most precious, if you prefer,) while every other species is lower on the list. Maybe the Bible made reference to it, but it's certainly not a "biblical concept," as it's ingrained in human nature, and a part of the 6 billion other people on the planet that have neither read, nor follow the Christian Bible.0 -
Not you, WendyTerry. The idea that humans have dominion over animals and that human life is more precious is a very Biblical idea.
I agree with that. It's relative and subjective.We are people, so we decide. Human lives are precious.
I never really understood why human lives are precious and other lives aren't ...
It is not (imho) a black and white precious vs not precious. Rather, I think in terms of a sliding scale of "preciousness", even within the class of "humans". Myself and my immediate family are most precious to me, closely followed by extended family and close friends, then even more extended family, distant friends, friends of friends etc etc... Animals come in at various places on the scale depending on if they are my dog, if they are intelligent (primates and dolphins rate high, for example), if they are cute ( ), if they are bred for food (i.e cows and pigs) etc. Some bacteria are beneficial (we don't want to kill those) while others cause disease (kill 'em!).
So all life has some level of preciousness. But sometimes our needs/desires will put their perceived importance below a threshold where we think it OK to kill them. Even in war or self defense, we (as a society, in general) think it OK to kill other humans. That threshold will be different for different individuals: some of us think killing cows for food is acceptable to satisfy our need for food; others think we should not do so. My personal threshold on this issue has changed at least twice, from becoming vegetarian many years ago, and switching back to meat eating 8 years later.
tl;dr: it's complicated!
What I don't and will never agree with is the objective statement that one species is more precious than another.
As to whether I would save the cow or owl, I don't know. It would break my heart to not save them both. I don't believe one more important than the other and I don't know any way I could make that decision. So instead of letting both die I guess I'd just have to flip a coin and live with it. I hope I will never have to make such a decision.
And as I said above, despite being a vegetarian myself, I'm not saying humans shouldn't eat meat. It's natural and it's a valid dietary choice. That doesn't mean we're somehow more precious than the animals we eat any more than a crocodile is more precious than a bird it makes its snack. It's just the hard truth of the food chain.
I think it's funny that an atheist is using something that comes from the Bible, though. :-)
Which bit of that came from the Bible? I don't remember too much emphasis on fuzzy logic in there.
No, it's really not. It's innate nature. Every animal species believes its own species to be dominant. That's how the organization of animals have established themselves. A pack of coyotes could overpower a few grey wolves, but the grey wolves pack together and hunt down coyotes to establish grey wolf dominance over them.
Humans are no different. Our intelligence and evolutionary advantages for tool creation have enabled us to establish ourselves as the dominant species on Earth. Therefore, humans are number one (or most precious, if you prefer,) while every other species is lower on the list. Maybe the Bible made reference to it, but it's certainly not a "biblical concept," as it's ingrained in human nature, and a part of the 6 billion other people on the planet that have neither read, nor follow the Christian Bible.
This.
We're apex predators due to the evolution of our species. It's not a moral or religious position, it's a fact of life position.
The same even happens in the plant world. Imagine a tree that falls in a dense forest. For a short time, there will be a break in the canopy and all the plants will race to fill it. The one that grows the fastest will survive, the rest will perish, starved of light. Some even resort to chemical warfare against their competitors. Pine tree needles have a growth inhibitor in them that many plants won't be able to germinate through. This way the pine will have fewer competitors for water and other nutrients.
It's just how life works and it has its brutal aspects at all levels, from the microscopic to the macroscopic.0 -
Not you, WendyTerry. The idea that humans have dominion over animals and that human life is more precious is a very Biblical idea.
I agree with that. It's relative and subjective.We are people, so we decide. Human lives are precious.
I never really understood why human lives are precious and other lives aren't ...
It is not (imho) a black and white precious vs not precious. Rather, I think in terms of a sliding scale of "preciousness", even within the class of "humans". Myself and my immediate family are most precious to me, closely followed by extended family and close friends, then even more extended family, distant friends, friends of friends etc etc... Animals come in at various places on the scale depending on if they are my dog, if they are intelligent (primates and dolphins rate high, for example), if they are cute ( ), if they are bred for food (i.e cows and pigs) etc. Some bacteria are beneficial (we don't want to kill those) while others cause disease (kill 'em!).
So all life has some level of preciousness. But sometimes our needs/desires will put their perceived importance below a threshold where we think it OK to kill them. Even in war or self defense, we (as a society, in general) think it OK to kill other humans. That threshold will be different for different individuals: some of us think killing cows for food is acceptable to satisfy our need for food; others think we should not do so. My personal threshold on this issue has changed at least twice, from becoming vegetarian many years ago, and switching back to meat eating 8 years later.
tl;dr: it's complicated!
What I don't and will never agree with is the objective statement that one species is more precious than another.
As to whether I would save the cow or owl, I don't know. It would break my heart to not save them both. I don't believe one more important than the other and I don't know any way I could make that decision. So instead of letting both die I guess I'd just have to flip a coin and live with it. I hope I will never have to make such a decision.
And as I said above, despite being a vegetarian myself, I'm not saying humans shouldn't eat meat. It's natural and it's a valid dietary choice. That doesn't mean we're somehow more precious than the animals we eat any more than a crocodile is more precious than a bird it makes its snack. It's just the hard truth of the food chain.
I think it's funny that an atheist is using something that comes from the Bible, though. :-)
Which bit of that came from the Bible? I don't remember too much emphasis on fuzzy logic in there.
No, it's really not. It's innate nature. Every animal species believes its own species to be dominant. That's how the organization of animals have established themselves. A pack of coyotes could overpower a few grey wolves, but the grey wolves pack together and hunt down coyotes to establish grey wolf dominance over them.
Humans are no different. Our intelligence and evolutionary advantages for tool creation have enabled us to establish ourselves as the dominant species on Earth. Therefore, humans are number one (or most precious, if you prefer,) while every other species is lower on the list. Maybe the Bible made reference to it, but it's certainly not a "biblical concept," as it's ingrained in human nature, and a part of the 6 billion other people on the planet that have neither read, nor follow the Christian Bible.
I wouldn't say it's innate. I mean, if you count number one a different way, beetles or turtles could beat us. And I'm sure that bonobos would point to human and dolphin pan-sexuality as one of the reasons why we're almost as important as them.0 -
In to read later when I have popcorn.
Skip the part about the kittens if you're eating.0 -
In to read later when I have popcorn.
Skip the part about the kittens if you're eating.
But be sure to come back to it later after your food has had some time to move out of your stomach.0 -
Well that's the point, every species see itself as dominant. Different ways of looking at it show different concepts. It's honestly very hard not to argue that ants are the dominant creature on earth. Or tardigrades for that matter. But we aren't ants, or tardigrades, so we see ourselves as dominant. Just as wolves see themselves as dominant. And tigers, and sharks, and elephants. We are (as far as I know) the only species that takes an active role in protecting other species. And then spend the rest of our time thinking about how we can destroy ourselves instead.
Not you, WendyTerry. The idea that humans have dominion over animals and that human life is more precious is a very Biblical idea.
I agree with that. It's relative and subjective.We are people, so we decide. Human lives are precious.
I never really understood why human lives are precious and other lives aren't ...
It is not (imho) a black and white precious vs not precious. Rather, I think in terms of a sliding scale of "preciousness", even within the class of "humans". Myself and my immediate family are most precious to me, closely followed by extended family and close friends, then even more extended family, distant friends, friends of friends etc etc... Animals come in at various places on the scale depending on if they are my dog, if they are intelligent (primates and dolphins rate high, for example), if they are cute ( ), if they are bred for food (i.e cows and pigs) etc. Some bacteria are beneficial (we don't want to kill those) while others cause disease (kill 'em!).
So all life has some level of preciousness. But sometimes our needs/desires will put their perceived importance below a threshold where we think it OK to kill them. Even in war or self defense, we (as a society, in general) think it OK to kill other humans. That threshold will be different for different individuals: some of us think killing cows for food is acceptable to satisfy our need for food; others think we should not do so. My personal threshold on this issue has changed at least twice, from becoming vegetarian many years ago, and switching back to meat eating 8 years later.
tl;dr: it's complicated!
What I don't and will never agree with is the objective statement that one species is more precious than another.
As to whether I would save the cow or owl, I don't know. It would break my heart to not save them both. I don't believe one more important than the other and I don't know any way I could make that decision. So instead of letting both die I guess I'd just have to flip a coin and live with it. I hope I will never have to make such a decision.
And as I said above, despite being a vegetarian myself, I'm not saying humans shouldn't eat meat. It's natural and it's a valid dietary choice. That doesn't mean we're somehow more precious than the animals we eat any more than a crocodile is more precious than a bird it makes its snack. It's just the hard truth of the food chain.
I think it's funny that an atheist is using something that comes from the Bible, though. :-)
Which bit of that came from the Bible? I don't remember too much emphasis on fuzzy logic in there.
No, it's really not. It's innate nature. Every animal species believes its own species to be dominant. That's how the organization of animals have established themselves. A pack of coyotes could overpower a few grey wolves, but the grey wolves pack together and hunt down coyotes to establish grey wolf dominance over them.
Humans are no different. Our intelligence and evolutionary advantages for tool creation have enabled us to establish ourselves as the dominant species on Earth. Therefore, humans are number one (or most precious, if you prefer,) while every other species is lower on the list. Maybe the Bible made reference to it, but it's certainly not a "biblical concept," as it's ingrained in human nature, and a part of the 6 billion other people on the planet that have neither read, nor follow the Christian Bible.
I wouldn't say it's innate. I mean, if you count number one a different way, beetles or turtles could beat us. And I'm sure that bonobos would point to human and dolphin pan-sexuality as one of the reasons why we're almost as important as them.0 -
Well that's the point, every species see itself as dominant. Different ways of looking at it show different concepts. It's honestly very hard not to argue that ants are the dominant creature on earth. Or tardigrades for that matter. But we aren't ants, or tardigrades, so we see ourselves as dominant. Just as wolves see themselves as dominant. And tigers, and sharks, and elephants. We are (as far as I know) the only species that takes an active role in protecting other species. And then spend the rest of our time thinking about how we can destroy ourselves instead.
Not you, WendyTerry. The idea that humans have dominion over animals and that human life is more precious is a very Biblical idea.
I agree with that. It's relative and subjective.We are people, so we decide. Human lives are precious.
I never really understood why human lives are precious and other lives aren't ...
It is not (imho) a black and white precious vs not precious. Rather, I think in terms of a sliding scale of "preciousness", even within the class of "humans". Myself and my immediate family are most precious to me, closely followed by extended family and close friends, then even more extended family, distant friends, friends of friends etc etc... Animals come in at various places on the scale depending on if they are my dog, if they are intelligent (primates and dolphins rate high, for example), if they are cute ( ), if they are bred for food (i.e cows and pigs) etc. Some bacteria are beneficial (we don't want to kill those) while others cause disease (kill 'em!).
So all life has some level of preciousness. But sometimes our needs/desires will put their perceived importance below a threshold where we think it OK to kill them. Even in war or self defense, we (as a society, in general) think it OK to kill other humans. That threshold will be different for different individuals: some of us think killing cows for food is acceptable to satisfy our need for food; others think we should not do so. My personal threshold on this issue has changed at least twice, from becoming vegetarian many years ago, and switching back to meat eating 8 years later.
tl;dr: it's complicated!
What I don't and will never agree with is the objective statement that one species is more precious than another.
As to whether I would save the cow or owl, I don't know. It would break my heart to not save them both. I don't believe one more important than the other and I don't know any way I could make that decision. So instead of letting both die I guess I'd just have to flip a coin and live with it. I hope I will never have to make such a decision.
And as I said above, despite being a vegetarian myself, I'm not saying humans shouldn't eat meat. It's natural and it's a valid dietary choice. That doesn't mean we're somehow more precious than the animals we eat any more than a crocodile is more precious than a bird it makes its snack. It's just the hard truth of the food chain.
I think it's funny that an atheist is using something that comes from the Bible, though. :-)
Which bit of that came from the Bible? I don't remember too much emphasis on fuzzy logic in there.
No, it's really not. It's innate nature. Every animal species believes its own species to be dominant. That's how the organization of animals have established themselves. A pack of coyotes could overpower a few grey wolves, but the grey wolves pack together and hunt down coyotes to establish grey wolf dominance over them.
Humans are no different. Our intelligence and evolutionary advantages for tool creation have enabled us to establish ourselves as the dominant species on Earth. Therefore, humans are number one (or most precious, if you prefer,) while every other species is lower on the list. Maybe the Bible made reference to it, but it's certainly not a "biblical concept," as it's ingrained in human nature, and a part of the 6 billion other people on the planet that have neither read, nor follow the Christian Bible.
I wouldn't say it's innate. I mean, if you count number one a different way, beetles or turtles could beat us. And I'm sure that bonobos would point to human and dolphin pan-sexuality as one of the reasons why we're almost as important as them.
Have you read that ****enson (I think) poem that tells the story of God being created in our image? All I can remember is how black were the stripes of God as conceived of by tigers, but I couldn't find it on the internet anywhere.
On NPR, I once heard somebody say "Monkeys don't imagine what it would be like to be a jaguar." And I thought that was a cool perspective on being human.0 -
"Dominant" and "precious" are NOT the same thing.
Not you, WendyTerry. The idea that humans have dominion over animals and that human life is more precious is a very Biblical idea.
I agree with that. It's relative and subjective.We are people, so we decide. Human lives are precious.
I never really understood why human lives are precious and other lives aren't ...
It is not (imho) a black and white precious vs not precious. Rather, I think in terms of a sliding scale of "preciousness", even within the class of "humans". Myself and my immediate family are most precious to me, closely followed by extended family and close friends, then even more extended family, distant friends, friends of friends etc etc... Animals come in at various places on the scale depending on if they are my dog, if they are intelligent (primates and dolphins rate high, for example), if they are cute ( ), if they are bred for food (i.e cows and pigs) etc. Some bacteria are beneficial (we don't want to kill those) while others cause disease (kill 'em!).
So all life has some level of preciousness. But sometimes our needs/desires will put their perceived importance below a threshold where we think it OK to kill them. Even in war or self defense, we (as a society, in general) think it OK to kill other humans. That threshold will be different for different individuals: some of us think killing cows for food is acceptable to satisfy our need for food; others think we should not do so. My personal threshold on this issue has changed at least twice, from becoming vegetarian many years ago, and switching back to meat eating 8 years later.
tl;dr: it's complicated!
What I don't and will never agree with is the objective statement that one species is more precious than another.
As to whether I would save the cow or owl, I don't know. It would break my heart to not save them both. I don't believe one more important than the other and I don't know any way I could make that decision. So instead of letting both die I guess I'd just have to flip a coin and live with it. I hope I will never have to make such a decision.
And as I said above, despite being a vegetarian myself, I'm not saying humans shouldn't eat meat. It's natural and it's a valid dietary choice. That doesn't mean we're somehow more precious than the animals we eat any more than a crocodile is more precious than a bird it makes its snack. It's just the hard truth of the food chain.
I think it's funny that an atheist is using something that comes from the Bible, though. :-)
Which bit of that came from the Bible? I don't remember too much emphasis on fuzzy logic in there.
No, it's really not. It's innate nature. Every animal species believes its own species to be dominant. That's how the organization of animals have established themselves. A pack of coyotes could overpower a few grey wolves, but the grey wolves pack together and hunt down coyotes to establish grey wolf dominance over them.
Humans are no different. Our intelligence and evolutionary advantages for tool creation have enabled us to establish ourselves as the dominant species on Earth. Therefore, humans are number one (or most precious, if you prefer,) while every other species is lower on the list. Maybe the Bible made reference to it, but it's certainly not a "biblical concept," as it's ingrained in human nature, and a part of the 6 billion other people on the planet that have neither read, nor follow the Christian Bible.
This.
We're apex predators due to the evolution of our species. It's not a moral or religious position, it's a fact of life position.
The same even happens in the plant world. Imagine a tree that falls in a dense forest. For a short time, there will be a break in the canopy and all the plants will race to fill it. The one that grows the fastest will survive, the rest will perish, starved of light. Some even resort to chemical warfare against their competitors. Pine tree needles have a growth inhibitor in them that many plants won't be able to germinate through. This way the pine will have fewer competitors for water and other nutrients.
It's just how life works and it has its brutal aspects at all levels, from the microscopic to the macroscopic.0 -
"Dominant" and "precious" are NOT the same thing.
Not you, WendyTerry. The idea that humans have dominion over animals and that human life is more precious is a very Biblical idea.
I agree with that. It's relative and subjective.We are people, so we decide. Human lives are precious.
I never really understood why human lives are precious and other lives aren't ...
It is not (imho) a black and white precious vs not precious. Rather, I think in terms of a sliding scale of "preciousness", even within the class of "humans". Myself and my immediate family are most precious to me, closely followed by extended family and close friends, then even more extended family, distant friends, friends of friends etc etc... Animals come in at various places on the scale depending on if they are my dog, if they are intelligent (primates and dolphins rate high, for example), if they are cute ( ), if they are bred for food (i.e cows and pigs) etc. Some bacteria are beneficial (we don't want to kill those) while others cause disease (kill 'em!).
So all life has some level of preciousness. But sometimes our needs/desires will put their perceived importance below a threshold where we think it OK to kill them. Even in war or self defense, we (as a society, in general) think it OK to kill other humans. That threshold will be different for different individuals: some of us think killing cows for food is acceptable to satisfy our need for food; others think we should not do so. My personal threshold on this issue has changed at least twice, from becoming vegetarian many years ago, and switching back to meat eating 8 years later.
tl;dr: it's complicated!
What I don't and will never agree with is the objective statement that one species is more precious than another.
As to whether I would save the cow or owl, I don't know. It would break my heart to not save them both. I don't believe one more important than the other and I don't know any way I could make that decision. So instead of letting both die I guess I'd just have to flip a coin and live with it. I hope I will never have to make such a decision.
And as I said above, despite being a vegetarian myself, I'm not saying humans shouldn't eat meat. It's natural and it's a valid dietary choice. That doesn't mean we're somehow more precious than the animals we eat any more than a crocodile is more precious than a bird it makes its snack. It's just the hard truth of the food chain.
I think it's funny that an atheist is using something that comes from the Bible, though. :-)
Which bit of that came from the Bible? I don't remember too much emphasis on fuzzy logic in there.
No, it's really not. It's innate nature. Every animal species believes its own species to be dominant. That's how the organization of animals have established themselves. A pack of coyotes could overpower a few grey wolves, but the grey wolves pack together and hunt down coyotes to establish grey wolf dominance over them.
Humans are no different. Our intelligence and evolutionary advantages for tool creation have enabled us to establish ourselves as the dominant species on Earth. Therefore, humans are number one (or most precious, if you prefer,) while every other species is lower on the list. Maybe the Bible made reference to it, but it's certainly not a "biblical concept," as it's ingrained in human nature, and a part of the 6 billion other people on the planet that have neither read, nor follow the Christian Bible.
This.
We're apex predators due to the evolution of our species. It's not a moral or religious position, it's a fact of life position.
The same even happens in the plant world. Imagine a tree that falls in a dense forest. For a short time, there will be a break in the canopy and all the plants will race to fill it. The one that grows the fastest will survive, the rest will perish, starved of light. Some even resort to chemical warfare against their competitors. Pine tree needles have a growth inhibitor in them that many plants won't be able to germinate through. This way the pine will have fewer competitors for water and other nutrients.
It's just how life works and it has its brutal aspects at all levels, from the microscopic to the macroscopic.
Thank you for pointing this out?0 -
"Dominant" and "precious" are NOT the same thing.
Not you, WendyTerry. The idea that humans have dominion over animals and that human life is more precious is a very Biblical idea.
I agree with that. It's relative and subjective.We are people, so we decide. Human lives are precious.
I never really understood why human lives are precious and other lives aren't ...
It is not (imho) a black and white precious vs not precious. Rather, I think in terms of a sliding scale of "preciousness", even within the class of "humans". Myself and my immediate family are most precious to me, closely followed by extended family and close friends, then even more extended family, distant friends, friends of friends etc etc... Animals come in at various places on the scale depending on if they are my dog, if they are intelligent (primates and dolphins rate high, for example), if they are cute ( ), if they are bred for food (i.e cows and pigs) etc. Some bacteria are beneficial (we don't want to kill those) while others cause disease (kill 'em!).
So all life has some level of preciousness. But sometimes our needs/desires will put their perceived importance below a threshold where we think it OK to kill them. Even in war or self defense, we (as a society, in general) think it OK to kill other humans. That threshold will be different for different individuals: some of us think killing cows for food is acceptable to satisfy our need for food; others think we should not do so. My personal threshold on this issue has changed at least twice, from becoming vegetarian many years ago, and switching back to meat eating 8 years later.
tl;dr: it's complicated!
What I don't and will never agree with is the objective statement that one species is more precious than another.
As to whether I would save the cow or owl, I don't know. It would break my heart to not save them both. I don't believe one more important than the other and I don't know any way I could make that decision. So instead of letting both die I guess I'd just have to flip a coin and live with it. I hope I will never have to make such a decision.
And as I said above, despite being a vegetarian myself, I'm not saying humans shouldn't eat meat. It's natural and it's a valid dietary choice. That doesn't mean we're somehow more precious than the animals we eat any more than a crocodile is more precious than a bird it makes its snack. It's just the hard truth of the food chain.
I think it's funny that an atheist is using something that comes from the Bible, though. :-)
Which bit of that came from the Bible? I don't remember too much emphasis on fuzzy logic in there.
No, it's really not. It's innate nature. Every animal species believes its own species to be dominant. That's how the organization of animals have established themselves. A pack of coyotes could overpower a few grey wolves, but the grey wolves pack together and hunt down coyotes to establish grey wolf dominance over them.
Humans are no different. Our intelligence and evolutionary advantages for tool creation have enabled us to establish ourselves as the dominant species on Earth. Therefore, humans are number one (or most precious, if you prefer,) while every other species is lower on the list. Maybe the Bible made reference to it, but it's certainly not a "biblical concept," as it's ingrained in human nature, and a part of the 6 billion other people on the planet that have neither read, nor follow the Christian Bible.
This.
We're apex predators due to the evolution of our species. It's not a moral or religious position, it's a fact of life position.
The same even happens in the plant world. Imagine a tree that falls in a dense forest. For a short time, there will be a break in the canopy and all the plants will race to fill it. The one that grows the fastest will survive, the rest will perish, starved of light. Some even resort to chemical warfare against their competitors. Pine tree needles have a growth inhibitor in them that many plants won't be able to germinate through. This way the pine will have fewer competitors for water and other nutrients.
It's just how life works and it has its brutal aspects at all levels, from the microscopic to the macroscopic.
Thank you for pointing this out?
It's often said that people who have little to say quote a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote .
And you may quote me.0 -
It's often said that people who have little to say quote a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote .
And you may quote me.
What?0 -
"History is written by the victors"0
-
"History is written by the victors"
That is one of my favorites, and so true.
"If you don't know history, than you don't know anything. You are a leaf that doesn't know it is part of a tree."0 -
"History is written by the victors"
Victor is given far too much credit. Bob was a ghost writer for Victor.0 -
Jesus christ.0
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Jesus christ.
...Superstar!
0
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