Dairy Alarmism
Replies
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Honestly, I actively try not to step on aunts.We are people, so we decide. Human lives are precious.
I never really understood why human lives are precious and other lives aren't ...
Other lives are precious, just not as precious as humans. And honestly, some lives aren't so precious, imo. If you step on an ant, do you hold a funeral?
And, again, why is human life more precious? What is so special about human life? If we were out in the wild, we would not be the top of the food chain ...
I'm not saying no one should eat meat, since that's the cycle of life and all, but human life is no more precious than any other life. We just have the means to protect ourselves with houses and guns. And even those things aren't always enough. People in the Orlando area lately are being mauled left and right by bears.
Every life is precious. That doesn't mean that lions should stop eating meat.
However, the moral question of which lives are more valuable is an interesting one. Let's say you have an owl and a crow that are both injured. Neither species are endangered. You have the resources to save one. Which do you save?0 -
Then you've completely missed the point. Wild boar and antelopes are both natural prey for tigers. A tiger that's hungry won't watch a wild boar go by and remain hungry because it's waiting for an antelope. When they are hungry they will eat the first food that they find that they normally eat. I find it weird that humans will stay hungry and bypass food that humans naturally and normally eat for purely arbitrary reasons.
Yeah my cat will drink milk if it is available (among other things) lol, but afterwards she ends up sick with diarrhea. Now that she isn't a kitten it's not part of her normal diet. And for most of the world's population who are lactose intolerant dairy is not something they can tolerate either without getting sick so I would hardly call it a necessary food group. Their bodies sure don't want it lol. I fail to see the big deal about a tiger eating wild boar vs antelope. They're carnivores they eat flesh.
It's not weird. It's also not weird to drink milk. It's not weird when humans do it, and it's not weird when other animals do it (and plenty of other animals will drink milk if it's available, even from other types of animals.)
Just because we do it and make it normal doesn't negate the whole weirdness of the whole thing lol. Milk is meant for babies and when they grow up practically all mammals aside from those humans with the lactose tolerance mutation lose the ability to digest lactose. So yes being able to drink milk beyond infancy isn't the norm and is weird. And from another species...yeah. If there was a story about a mother breast feeding her 13 year old son that would make the news, but a cow nope lol. I`m not saying we shouldn't have dairy because it's weird just that it's weird lol. And humans are omnivores why would it be weird to eat meat and plants?
Why is it strange? We eat all manners of different species, and all different parts of those species. We are humans, we are the apex predators, due to the fact that we've developed technology to overcome our inherent weaknesses. We eat honey, which is bee vomit. We drink milk from cows, goats, yaks, and pretty much any animal that can be milked. Buffalo mozzarella isn't called that because it's from New York, it's because it's made from buffalo milk. We eat what we can derive nourishment from, which in the case of our incredibly adaptable system, is pretty much anything we can get our hands on.
I agree but have to admit it's really strange to be using the milk of another species. No one would want to drink human milk beyond infancy but no one bats an eye about cows milk that's considered totally normal lolDairy is fine if your body produces the enzyme lactase. The very recent evolution of the ability to digest dairy products in adulthood is fascinating... this trait has evolved in populations with a long history of dairy farming/herding, e.g. Europeans, Masai (in Africa)... what's most interesting is that this trait evolved at least twice, i.e. separately in both those populations, and it may be the case that it's evolved separately in other dairy/herding populations (the alternative is that gene flow between populations resulted in the trait spreading from one population to another,but it's been demonstrated in scientific studies that the European mutation and Masai mutation for digesting dairy as adults are different and arose separately).
Anyway, whether you find that kind of thing interesting or not, the ability to digest lactose is quite closely tied to ethnic origin (although it's not 100% because of gene flow and archaic genes sticking around) so if your ancestors over the last few thousand years were dairy farmers or herders, chances are you can digest dairy just fine, and there's no reason to avoid it. If your ancestors from this time period didn't have anything to do with dairy, then there's a high probability that you can't digest dairy and in that case you should avoid it. But usually people who are lactose intolerant know about it without being told this information due to getting sick when they eat dairy.
Dairy allergy is separate to lactose intolerance and while I'd love to know the evolutionary history of allergy (which is probably a defence against parasitic infection) I don't know much about it or examples of any particular populations it evolved in. But if you're allergic to milk that's another reason not to drink it.
Unfortunately there's a lot of pseudoscience against milk because both the vegan crowd and the paleo crowd hate on it. There are few things that these two groups agree on, but hatred of dairy products is one. And both groups will tell you "milk is for baby cows not for humans" they also both tend to ignore or be unaware of the fact that humans are highly adaptable in terms of diet, and the ability to digest dairy products has evolved in populations with a long enough history of dairy farming/herding.
I, personally, am from the British Isles and the Britain a history of dairy farming going back at least 5000 years; I can digest dairy just fine and will continue to consume dairy products
:drinker: @ dairy products and the lactase persistence gene
tl;dr: if dairy makes you sick don't eat/drink it, if it doesn't and you like it then eat/drink it
What's weird is when humans arbitrarily cut out specific foods or food groups that are part of our natural diet. That you don't see in any other species. You never see a tiger pass up a meal because it's an antelope instead of a wild boar. They don't pick and choose.
Like insect larva. We've historically eaten quite a bit of those.0 -
Honestly, I actively try not to step on aunts.We are people, so we decide. Human lives are precious.
I never really understood why human lives are precious and other lives aren't ...
Other lives are precious, just not as precious as humans. And honestly, some lives aren't so precious, imo. If you step on an ant, do you hold a funeral?
And, again, why is human life more precious? What is so special about human life? If we were out in the wild, we would not be the top of the food chain ...
I'm not saying no one should eat meat, since that's the cycle of life and all, but human life is no more precious than any other life. We just have the means to protect ourselves with houses and guns. And even those things aren't always enough. People in the Orlando area lately are being mauled left and right by bears.
For me it goes like this:
Humans > Primates & Dolphins > dogs & cats & pigs & horses > other mammals > birds, fish reptiles > insects and gross-looking creatures
Why?
Intelligence/Reason0 -
Speaking of that same tiger lol...The tiger would only hunt and eat when it's actually hungry. If it wasn't hungry it would let that wild boar go by. Humans on the other hand will eat for a whole bunch of reasons that have nothing to do with actual hunger. Yeah humans have weird dietary habits in general that's for sure.
Then you've completely missed the point. Wild boar and antelopes are both natural prey for tigers. A tiger that's hungry won't watch a wild boar go by and remain hungry because it's waiting for an antelope. When they are hungry they will eat the first food that they find that they normally eat. I find it weird that humans will stay hungry and bypass food that humans naturally and normally eat for purely arbitrary reasons.
Yeah my cat will drink milk if it is available (among other things) lol, but afterwards she ends up sick with diarrhea. Now that she isn't a kitten it's not part of her normal diet. And for most of the world's population who are lactose intolerant dairy is not something they can tolerate either without getting sick so I would hardly call it a necessary food group. Their bodies sure don't want it lol. I fail to see the big deal about a tiger eating wild boar vs antelope. They're carnivores they eat flesh.
It's not weird. It's also not weird to drink milk. It's not weird when humans do it, and it's not weird when other animals do it (and plenty of other animals will drink milk if it's available, even from other types of animals.)
Just because we do it and make it normal doesn't negate the whole weirdness of the whole thing lol. Milk is meant for babies and when they grow up practically all mammals aside from those humans with the lactose tolerance mutation lose the ability to digest lactose. So yes being able to drink milk beyond infancy isn't the norm and is weird. And from another species...yeah. If there was a story about a mother breast feeding her 13 year old son that would make the news, but a cow nope lol. I`m not saying we shouldn't have dairy because it's weird just that it's weird lol. And humans are omnivores why would it be weird to eat meat and plants?
Why is it strange? We eat all manners of different species, and all different parts of those species. We are humans, we are the apex predators, due to the fact that we've developed technology to overcome our inherent weaknesses. We eat honey, which is bee vomit. We drink milk from cows, goats, yaks, and pretty much any animal that can be milked. Buffalo mozzarella isn't called that because it's from New York, it's because it's made from buffalo milk. We eat what we can derive nourishment from, which in the case of our incredibly adaptable system, is pretty much anything we can get our hands on.
I agree but have to admit it's really strange to be using the milk of another species. No one would want to drink human milk beyond infancy but no one bats an eye about cows milk that's considered totally normal lolDairy is fine if your body produces the enzyme lactase. The very recent evolution of the ability to digest dairy products in adulthood is fascinating... this trait has evolved in populations with a long history of dairy farming/herding, e.g. Europeans, Masai (in Africa)... what's most interesting is that this trait evolved at least twice, i.e. separately in both those populations, and it may be the case that it's evolved separately in other dairy/herding populations (the alternative is that gene flow between populations resulted in the trait spreading from one population to another,but it's been demonstrated in scientific studies that the European mutation and Masai mutation for digesting dairy as adults are different and arose separately).
Anyway, whether you find that kind of thing interesting or not, the ability to digest lactose is quite closely tied to ethnic origin (although it's not 100% because of gene flow and archaic genes sticking around) so if your ancestors over the last few thousand years were dairy farmers or herders, chances are you can digest dairy just fine, and there's no reason to avoid it. If your ancestors from this time period didn't have anything to do with dairy, then there's a high probability that you can't digest dairy and in that case you should avoid it. But usually people who are lactose intolerant know about it without being told this information due to getting sick when they eat dairy.
Dairy allergy is separate to lactose intolerance and while I'd love to know the evolutionary history of allergy (which is probably a defence against parasitic infection) I don't know much about it or examples of any particular populations it evolved in. But if you're allergic to milk that's another reason not to drink it.
Unfortunately there's a lot of pseudoscience against milk because both the vegan crowd and the paleo crowd hate on it. There are few things that these two groups agree on, but hatred of dairy products is one. And both groups will tell you "milk is for baby cows not for humans" they also both tend to ignore or be unaware of the fact that humans are highly adaptable in terms of diet, and the ability to digest dairy products has evolved in populations with a long enough history of dairy farming/herding.
I, personally, am from the British Isles and the Britain a history of dairy farming going back at least 5000 years; I can digest dairy just fine and will continue to consume dairy products
:drinker: @ dairy products and the lactase persistence gene
tl;dr: if dairy makes you sick don't eat/drink it, if it doesn't and you like it then eat/drink it
What's weird is when humans arbitrarily cut out specific foods or food groups that are part of our natural diet. That you don't see in any other species. You never see a tiger pass up a meal because it's an antelope instead of a wild boar. They don't pick and choose.
A lot of animals will eat from boredom, zoo tigers among them.0 -
Honestly, I actively try not to step on aunts.We are people, so we decide. Human lives are precious.
I never really understood why human lives are precious and other lives aren't ...
Other lives are precious, just not as precious as humans. And honestly, some lives aren't so precious, imo. If you step on an ant, do you hold a funeral?
And, again, why is human life more precious? What is so special about human life? If we were out in the wild, we would not be the top of the food chain ...
I'm not saying no one should eat meat, since that's the cycle of life and all, but human life is no more precious than any other life. We just have the means to protect ourselves with houses and guns. And even those things aren't always enough. People in the Orlando area lately are being mauled left and right by bears.
For me it goes like this:
Humans > Primates & Dolphins > dogs & cats & pigs & horses > other mammals > birds, fish reptiles > insects and gross-looking creatures
Why?
Intelligence/Reason
That looks an awful lot like Matt Groening's "looks like me" ethical map.0 -
This content has been removed.
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Today I learned that cows are smarter than crows...For me it goes like this:
Humans > Primates & Dolphins > dogs & cats & pigs & horses > other mammals > birds, fish reptiles > insects and gross-looking creatures
Why?
Intelligence/Reason
For me there is no distinction, a different species is a different species. We humans reign over them, if we want their flesh or milk for our food we'll take it.
However, there is such a thing as reigning gently and without abusing our privilege. I believe in that too...0 -
We are people, so we decide. Human lives are precious.
I never really understood why human lives are precious and other lives aren't ...
It is not (imho) a black and white precious vs not precious. Rather, I think in terms of a sliding scale of "preciousness", even within the class of "humans". Myself and my immediate family are most precious to me, closely followed by extended family and close friends, then even more extended family, distant friends, friends of friends etc etc... Animals come in at various places on the scale depending on if they are my dog, if they are intelligent (primates and dolphins rate high, for example), if they are cute (
), if they are bred for food (i.e cows and pigs) etc. Some bacteria are beneficial (we don't want to kill those) while others cause disease (kill 'em!).
So all life has some level of preciousness. But sometimes our needs/desires will put their perceived importance below a threshold where we think it OK to kill them. Even in war or self defense, we (as a society, in general) think it OK to kill other humans. That threshold will be different for different individuals: some of us think killing cows for food is acceptable to satisfy our need for food; others think we should not do so. My personal threshold on this issue has changed at least twice, from becoming vegetarian many years ago, and switching back to meat eating 8 years later.
tl;dr: it's complicated!0 -
This content has been removed.
-
Honestly, I actively try not to step on aunts.We are people, so we decide. Human lives are precious.
I never really understood why human lives are precious and other lives aren't ...
Other lives are precious, just not as precious as humans. And honestly, some lives aren't so precious, imo. If you step on an ant, do you hold a funeral?
And, again, why is human life more precious? What is so special about human life? If we were out in the wild, we would not be the top of the food chain ...
I'm not saying no one should eat meat, since that's the cycle of life and all, but human life is no more precious than any other life. We just have the means to protect ourselves with houses and guns. And even those things aren't always enough. People in the Orlando area lately are being mauled left and right by bears.
For me it goes like this:
Humans > Primates & Dolphins > dogs & cats & pigs & horses > other mammals > birds, fish reptiles > insects and gross-looking creatures
Why?
Intelligence/Reason
That looks an awful lot like Matt Groening's "looks like me" ethical map.
Are you saying I look like a dolphin? :laugh:0 -
Today I learned that cows are smarter than crows...For me it goes like this:
Humans > Primates & Dolphins > dogs & cats & pigs & horses > other mammals > birds, fish reptiles > insects and gross-looking creatures
Why?
Intelligence/Reason
For me there is no distinction, a different species is a different species. We humans reign over them, if we want their flesh or milk for our food we'll take it.
However, there is such a thing as reigning gently and without abusing our privilege. I believe in that too...
Cows are yummy. And even though I put pigs with cats & dogs, so far as intelligence goes, I eat them too. Because bacon.0 -
Today I learned that cows are smarter than crows...For me it goes like this:
Humans > Primates & Dolphins > dogs & cats & pigs & horses > other mammals > birds, fish reptiles > insects and gross-looking creatures
Why?
Intelligence/Reason
For me there is no distinction, a different species is a different species. We humans reign over them, if we want their flesh or milk for our food we'll take it.
However, there is such a thing as reigning gently and without abusing our privilege. I believe in that too...
Cows are yummy. And even though I put pigs with cats & dogs, so far as intelligence goes, I eat them too. Because bacon.
According to Audubon, robins are delicious.0 -
Honestly, I actively try not to step on aunts.We are people, so we decide. Human lives are precious.
I never really understood why human lives are precious and other lives aren't ...
Other lives are precious, just not as precious as humans. And honestly, some lives aren't so precious, imo. If you step on an ant, do you hold a funeral?
And, again, why is human life more precious? What is so special about human life? If we were out in the wild, we would not be the top of the food chain ...
I'm not saying no one should eat meat, since that's the cycle of life and all, but human life is no more precious than any other life. We just have the means to protect ourselves with houses and guns. And even those things aren't always enough. People in the Orlando area lately are being mauled left and right by bears.
For me it goes like this:
Humans > Primates & Dolphins > dogs & cats & pigs & horses > other mammals > birds, fish reptiles > insects and gross-looking creatures
Why?
Intelligence/Reason
That looks an awful lot like Matt Groening's "looks like me" ethical map.
Are you saying I look like a dolphin? :laugh:
I can't find it anywhere, but he has this whole scale that literally had "gross looking things" on the bottom that listed out the ethics he identified with each category of being. It was so on the mark that it almost wasn't funny...just like 90% of his "life is hell" stuff.0 -
A few more to peruse:High fat dairy consumption is actually linked to some types of cancer.
http://www.oncologynutrition.org/erfc/healthy-nutrition-now/dairy-and-ovarian-cancer/
Here's a direct quote from the article you linked:
Does dairy increase or decrease the risk? There is no clear answer
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/74/4/549.abstract
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/86/6/1722.abstract
http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/content/97/23/1768.long
Read them before this comment disappears. MFP tends to censor certain things.
Bwahahaha.0 -
I agree with that. It's relative and subjective.We are people, so we decide. Human lives are precious.
I never really understood why human lives are precious and other lives aren't ...
It is not (imho) a black and white precious vs not precious. Rather, I think in terms of a sliding scale of "preciousness", even within the class of "humans". Myself and my immediate family are most precious to me, closely followed by extended family and close friends, then even more extended family, distant friends, friends of friends etc etc... Animals come in at various places on the scale depending on if they are my dog, if they are intelligent (primates and dolphins rate high, for example), if they are cute ( ), if they are bred for food (i.e cows and pigs) etc. Some bacteria are beneficial (we don't want to kill those) while others cause disease (kill 'em!).
So all life has some level of preciousness. But sometimes our needs/desires will put their perceived importance below a threshold where we think it OK to kill them. Even in war or self defense, we (as a society, in general) think it OK to kill other humans. That threshold will be different for different individuals: some of us think killing cows for food is acceptable to satisfy our need for food; others think we should not do so. My personal threshold on this issue has changed at least twice, from becoming vegetarian many years ago, and switching back to meat eating 8 years later.
tl;dr: it's complicated!
What I don't and will never agree with is the objective statement that one species is more precious than another.
As to whether I would save the cow or owl, I don't know. It would break my heart to not save them both. I don't believe one more important than the other and I don't know any way I could make that decision. So instead of letting both die I guess I'd just have to flip a coin and live with it. I hope I will never have to make such a decision.
And as I said above, despite being a vegetarian myself, I'm not saying humans shouldn't eat meat. It's natural and it's a valid dietary choice. That doesn't mean we're somehow more precious than the animals we eat any more than a crocodile is more precious than a bird it makes its snack. It's just the hard truth of the food chain.
I think it's funny that an atheist is using something that comes from the Bible, though. :-)0 -
This content has been removed.
-
Today I learned that cows are smarter than crows...For me it goes like this:
Humans > Primates & Dolphins > dogs & cats & pigs & horses > other mammals > birds, fish reptiles > insects and gross-looking creatures
Why?
Intelligence/Reason
For me there is no distinction, a different species is a different species. We humans reign over them, if we want their flesh or milk for our food we'll take it.
However, there is such a thing as reigning gently and without abusing our privilege. I believe in that too...
Cows are yummy. And even though I put pigs with cats & dogs, so far as intelligence goes, I eat them too. Because bacon.
According to Audubon, robins are delicious.
I have only had chicken, turkey, and duck, but would try robins or quail. Honestly, I'd eat any bird if it was cooked right, or I'm hungry.0 -
I agree with that. It's relative and subjective.We are people, so we decide. Human lives are precious.
I never really understood why human lives are precious and other lives aren't ...
It is not (imho) a black and white precious vs not precious. Rather, I think in terms of a sliding scale of "preciousness", even within the class of "humans". Myself and my immediate family are most precious to me, closely followed by extended family and close friends, then even more extended family, distant friends, friends of friends etc etc... Animals come in at various places on the scale depending on if they are my dog, if they are intelligent (primates and dolphins rate high, for example), if they are cute ( ), if they are bred for food (i.e cows and pigs) etc. Some bacteria are beneficial (we don't want to kill those) while others cause disease (kill 'em!).
So all life has some level of preciousness. But sometimes our needs/desires will put their perceived importance below a threshold where we think it OK to kill them. Even in war or self defense, we (as a society, in general) think it OK to kill other humans. That threshold will be different for different individuals: some of us think killing cows for food is acceptable to satisfy our need for food; others think we should not do so. My personal threshold on this issue has changed at least twice, from becoming vegetarian many years ago, and switching back to meat eating 8 years later.
tl;dr: it's complicated!
What I don't and will never agree with is the objective statement that one species is more precious than another.
As to whether I would save the cow or owl, I don't know. It would break my heart to not save them both. I don't believe one more important than the other and I don't know any way I could make that decision. So instead of letting both die I guess I'd just have to flip a coin and live with it. I hope I will never have to make such a decision.
And as I said above, despite being a vegetarian myself, I'm not saying humans shouldn't eat meat. It's natural and it's a valid dietary choice. That doesn't mean we're somehow more precious than the animals we eat any more than a crocodile is more precious than a bird it makes its snack. It's just the hard truth of the food chain.
I think it's funny that an atheist is using something that comes from the Bible, though. :-)
Which bit of that came from the Bible? I don't remember too much emphasis on fuzzy logic in there.0 -
I can't find it anywhere, but he has this whole scale that literally had "gross looking things" on the bottom that listed out the ethics he identified with each category of being. It was so on the mark that it almost wasn't funny...just like 90% of his "life is hell" stuff.
Yeah, I tried to Google it too with no luck. If you find it, post it to my profile page. I love Matt Groening!0 -
And that was my point.
I have only had chicken, turkey, and duck, but would try robins or quail. Honestly, I'd eat any bird if it was cooked right, or I'm hungry.
According to Audubon, robins are delicious.
Cows are yummy. And even though I put pigs with cats & dogs, so far as intelligence goes, I eat them too. Because bacon.
Today I learned that cows are smarter than crows...For me it goes like this:
Humans > Primates & Dolphins > dogs & cats & pigs & horses > other mammals > birds, fish reptiles > insects and gross-looking creatures
Why?
Intelligence/Reason
For me there is no distinction, a different species is a different species. We humans reign over them, if we want their flesh or milk for our food we'll take it.
However, there is such a thing as reigning gently and without abusing our privilege. I believe in that too...
Yummy or not (probably not), the intelligence of crows has been estimated as being comparable to that of great apes and are among the few non-human species to use tools.
So, would you still eat them?0 -
Not you, WendyTerry. The idea that humans have dominion over animals and that human life is more precious is a very Biblical idea.
I agree with that. It's relative and subjective.We are people, so we decide. Human lives are precious.
I never really understood why human lives are precious and other lives aren't ...
It is not (imho) a black and white precious vs not precious. Rather, I think in terms of a sliding scale of "preciousness", even within the class of "humans". Myself and my immediate family are most precious to me, closely followed by extended family and close friends, then even more extended family, distant friends, friends of friends etc etc... Animals come in at various places on the scale depending on if they are my dog, if they are intelligent (primates and dolphins rate high, for example), if they are cute ( ), if they are bred for food (i.e cows and pigs) etc. Some bacteria are beneficial (we don't want to kill those) while others cause disease (kill 'em!).
So all life has some level of preciousness. But sometimes our needs/desires will put their perceived importance below a threshold where we think it OK to kill them. Even in war or self defense, we (as a society, in general) think it OK to kill other humans. That threshold will be different for different individuals: some of us think killing cows for food is acceptable to satisfy our need for food; others think we should not do so. My personal threshold on this issue has changed at least twice, from becoming vegetarian many years ago, and switching back to meat eating 8 years later.
tl;dr: it's complicated!
What I don't and will never agree with is the objective statement that one species is more precious than another.
As to whether I would save the cow or owl, I don't know. It would break my heart to not save them both. I don't believe one more important than the other and I don't know any way I could make that decision. So instead of letting both die I guess I'd just have to flip a coin and live with it. I hope I will never have to make such a decision.
And as I said above, despite being a vegetarian myself, I'm not saying humans shouldn't eat meat. It's natural and it's a valid dietary choice. That doesn't mean we're somehow more precious than the animals we eat any more than a crocodile is more precious than a bird it makes its snack. It's just the hard truth of the food chain.
I think it's funny that an atheist is using something that comes from the Bible, though. :-)
Which bit of that came from the Bible? I don't remember too much emphasis on fuzzy logic in there.0 -
Not you, WendyTerry. The idea that humans have dominion over animals and that human life is more precious is a very Biblical idea.
I agree with that. It's relative and subjective.We are people, so we decide. Human lives are precious.
I never really understood why human lives are precious and other lives aren't ...
It is not (imho) a black and white precious vs not precious. Rather, I think in terms of a sliding scale of "preciousness", even within the class of "humans". Myself and my immediate family are most precious to me, closely followed by extended family and close friends, then even more extended family, distant friends, friends of friends etc etc... Animals come in at various places on the scale depending on if they are my dog, if they are intelligent (primates and dolphins rate high, for example), if they are cute ( ), if they are bred for food (i.e cows and pigs) etc. Some bacteria are beneficial (we don't want to kill those) while others cause disease (kill 'em!).
So all life has some level of preciousness. But sometimes our needs/desires will put their perceived importance below a threshold where we think it OK to kill them. Even in war or self defense, we (as a society, in general) think it OK to kill other humans. That threshold will be different for different individuals: some of us think killing cows for food is acceptable to satisfy our need for food; others think we should not do so. My personal threshold on this issue has changed at least twice, from becoming vegetarian many years ago, and switching back to meat eating 8 years later.
tl;dr: it's complicated!
What I don't and will never agree with is the objective statement that one species is more precious than another.
As to whether I would save the cow or owl, I don't know. It would break my heart to not save them both. I don't believe one more important than the other and I don't know any way I could make that decision. So instead of letting both die I guess I'd just have to flip a coin and live with it. I hope I will never have to make such a decision.
And as I said above, despite being a vegetarian myself, I'm not saying humans shouldn't eat meat. It's natural and it's a valid dietary choice. That doesn't mean we're somehow more precious than the animals we eat any more than a crocodile is more precious than a bird it makes its snack. It's just the hard truth of the food chain.
I think it's funny that an atheist is using something that comes from the Bible, though. :-)
Which bit of that came from the Bible? I don't remember too much emphasis on fuzzy logic in there.
I always took the Bible to support a more stewardship relationship. After all, Noah took all the animals. Not just the cute, sentient ones.0 -
And that was my point.
I have only had chicken, turkey, and duck, but would try robins or quail. Honestly, I'd eat any bird if it was cooked right, or I'm hungry.
According to Audubon, robins are delicious.
Cows are yummy. And even though I put pigs with cats & dogs, so far as intelligence goes, I eat them too. Because bacon.
Today I learned that cows are smarter than crows...For me it goes like this:
Humans > Primates & Dolphins > dogs & cats & pigs & horses > other mammals > birds, fish reptiles > insects and gross-looking creatures
Why?
Intelligence/Reason
For me there is no distinction, a different species is a different species. We humans reign over them, if we want their flesh or milk for our food we'll take it.
However, there is such a thing as reigning gently and without abusing our privilege. I believe in that too...
Yummy or not (probably not), the intelligence of crows has been estimated as being comparable to that of great apes and are among the few non-human species to use tools.
So, would you still eat them?
I would be leary of crows for a variety of reasons. Honestly, I forgot about crows. Yeah, to me they should be up there with dogs and cats. But if I were in a life and death situation, I would probably eat any animal other than a dolphin or an ape. I think those are where I'd draw the line. But even that line might move if it were someone else that dressed the animal and cooked the meat.
FWIW, my list was not intended to be exhaustive. I am definitely open to making amendments if provided additional information.
Hell, TBH, I'd have survived the Donner party even. 0 -
what about the animals that only lived in north america? how'd he get those ones?
Not you, WendyTerry. The idea that humans have dominion over animals and that human life is more precious is a very Biblical idea.
I agree with that. It's relative and subjective.We are people, so we decide. Human lives are precious.
I never really understood why human lives are precious and other lives aren't ...
It is not (imho) a black and white precious vs not precious. Rather, I think in terms of a sliding scale of "preciousness", even within the class of "humans". Myself and my immediate family are most precious to me, closely followed by extended family and close friends, then even more extended family, distant friends, friends of friends etc etc... Animals come in at various places on the scale depending on if they are my dog, if they are intelligent (primates and dolphins rate high, for example), if they are cute ( ), if they are bred for food (i.e cows and pigs) etc. Some bacteria are beneficial (we don't want to kill those) while others cause disease (kill 'em!).
So all life has some level of preciousness. But sometimes our needs/desires will put their perceived importance below a threshold where we think it OK to kill them. Even in war or self defense, we (as a society, in general) think it OK to kill other humans. That threshold will be different for different individuals: some of us think killing cows for food is acceptable to satisfy our need for food; others think we should not do so. My personal threshold on this issue has changed at least twice, from becoming vegetarian many years ago, and switching back to meat eating 8 years later.
tl;dr: it's complicated!
What I don't and will never agree with is the objective statement that one species is more precious than another.
As to whether I would save the cow or owl, I don't know. It would break my heart to not save them both. I don't believe one more important than the other and I don't know any way I could make that decision. So instead of letting both die I guess I'd just have to flip a coin and live with it. I hope I will never have to make such a decision.
And as I said above, despite being a vegetarian myself, I'm not saying humans shouldn't eat meat. It's natural and it's a valid dietary choice. That doesn't mean we're somehow more precious than the animals we eat any more than a crocodile is more precious than a bird it makes its snack. It's just the hard truth of the food chain.
I think it's funny that an atheist is using something that comes from the Bible, though. :-)
Which bit of that came from the Bible? I don't remember too much emphasis on fuzzy logic in there.
I always took the Bible to support a more stewardship relationship. After all, Noah took all the animals. Not just the cute, sentient ones.0 -
Not you, WendyTerry. The idea that humans have dominion over animals and that human life is more precious is a very Biblical idea.
I agree with that. It's relative and subjective.We are people, so we decide. Human lives are precious.
I never really understood why human lives are precious and other lives aren't ...
It is not (imho) a black and white precious vs not precious. Rather, I think in terms of a sliding scale of "preciousness", even within the class of "humans". Myself and my immediate family are most precious to me, closely followed by extended family and close friends, then even more extended family, distant friends, friends of friends etc etc... Animals come in at various places on the scale depending on if they are my dog, if they are intelligent (primates and dolphins rate high, for example), if they are cute ( ), if they are bred for food (i.e cows and pigs) etc. Some bacteria are beneficial (we don't want to kill those) while others cause disease (kill 'em!).
So all life has some level of preciousness. But sometimes our needs/desires will put their perceived importance below a threshold where we think it OK to kill them. Even in war or self defense, we (as a society, in general) think it OK to kill other humans. That threshold will be different for different individuals: some of us think killing cows for food is acceptable to satisfy our need for food; others think we should not do so. My personal threshold on this issue has changed at least twice, from becoming vegetarian many years ago, and switching back to meat eating 8 years later.
tl;dr: it's complicated!
What I don't and will never agree with is the objective statement that one species is more precious than another.
As to whether I would save the cow or owl, I don't know. It would break my heart to not save them both. I don't believe one more important than the other and I don't know any way I could make that decision. So instead of letting both die I guess I'd just have to flip a coin and live with it. I hope I will never have to make such a decision.
And as I said above, despite being a vegetarian myself, I'm not saying humans shouldn't eat meat. It's natural and it's a valid dietary choice. That doesn't mean we're somehow more precious than the animals we eat any more than a crocodile is more precious than a bird it makes its snack. It's just the hard truth of the food chain.
I think it's funny that an atheist is using something that comes from the Bible, though. :-)
Which bit of that came from the Bible? I don't remember too much emphasis on fuzzy logic in there.
I always took the Bible to support a more stewardship relationship. After all, Noah took all the animals. Not just the cute, sentient ones.
But he left out the unicorns and the dinosaurs. :sad:0 -
The interpretations I've seen from devout religious people of Genesis is that humans are more important and the animals exist for us to use as we see fit. There are two creation stories, but they both kind of support this view.
Not you, WendyTerry. The idea that humans have dominion over animals and that human life is more precious is a very Biblical idea.
I agree with that. It's relative and subjective.We are people, so we decide. Human lives are precious.
I never really understood why human lives are precious and other lives aren't ...
It is not (imho) a black and white precious vs not precious. Rather, I think in terms of a sliding scale of "preciousness", even within the class of "humans". Myself and my immediate family are most precious to me, closely followed by extended family and close friends, then even more extended family, distant friends, friends of friends etc etc... Animals come in at various places on the scale depending on if they are my dog, if they are intelligent (primates and dolphins rate high, for example), if they are cute ( ), if they are bred for food (i.e cows and pigs) etc. Some bacteria are beneficial (we don't want to kill those) while others cause disease (kill 'em!).
So all life has some level of preciousness. But sometimes our needs/desires will put their perceived importance below a threshold where we think it OK to kill them. Even in war or self defense, we (as a society, in general) think it OK to kill other humans. That threshold will be different for different individuals: some of us think killing cows for food is acceptable to satisfy our need for food; others think we should not do so. My personal threshold on this issue has changed at least twice, from becoming vegetarian many years ago, and switching back to meat eating 8 years later.
tl;dr: it's complicated!
What I don't and will never agree with is the objective statement that one species is more precious than another.
As to whether I would save the cow or owl, I don't know. It would break my heart to not save them both. I don't believe one more important than the other and I don't know any way I could make that decision. So instead of letting both die I guess I'd just have to flip a coin and live with it. I hope I will never have to make such a decision.
And as I said above, despite being a vegetarian myself, I'm not saying humans shouldn't eat meat. It's natural and it's a valid dietary choice. That doesn't mean we're somehow more precious than the animals we eat any more than a crocodile is more precious than a bird it makes its snack. It's just the hard truth of the food chain.
I think it's funny that an atheist is using something that comes from the Bible, though. :-)
Which bit of that came from the Bible? I don't remember too much emphasis on fuzzy logic in there.
I always took the Bible to support a more stewardship relationship. After all, Noah took all the animals. Not just the cute, sentient ones.
I've actually heard people say you can't be a good Christian is you are vegetarian and refuse to wear fur and leather.0 -
Yeah my cat will drink milk if it is available (among other things) lol, but afterwards she ends up sick with diarrhea.
We had some kittens when I was a kid. They'd been off the teet for a couple of months. My brother and I thought it would be nice to give them some milk so we went to the refrigerator and poured a nice cold saucer of milk for them. All five kittens enjoyed the hell out of it. It was a warm spring day, so my brother and I left them to their adorable kitten devices while we went off to do whatever my brother and I found amusing at 4 and 7.
An hour or so later, we came back to see how the kittens were because... kids love kittens and checking up on them is what we did often. Something else that we did often was give them hugs because... kitten hugs are awesome and our kittens liked us.
They turned out the be the grossest hugs that ever my brother and I had experienced to date or ever after (at least I hope my brother isn't into that sort of thing but if he is... it's not my place to determine what is right and wrong for another grown adult to do in the bedroom... or bathroom but I digress).
What happened next left our shirts sodden and horribly smells. We had literally hugged the poo right out of our little kittens. Now were weren't some Rockwellian type kids, we were gross and often had an antagonistic relationship. Much to the horror of my now adult sensibilities, we turned those little kittens into the worst kind of squirt guns you can imagine (at least I hope it's the worst kind you can imagine...).
Yeah, it was gross but I learned an important science lesson that day. Some mammals stop producing the lactase enzyme and what will happen to their digestive system can become rather horrific. I'm glad I still produce it. I like milk, cheese, ice cream and even the Gelato that I tried for the first time yesterday due to constantly seeing the "Gelato cleanse" thread.
Moral of the story: Some lessons that you learn if life are just downright sh***y.
(no kittens were harmed 30 years ago, the lived to be great mousers, only a year ago did the last one die as a three legged, one eyed female that hunted up until her very last summer. Love you pebbles.)0 -
Yeah my cat will drink milk if it is available (among other things) lol, but afterwards she ends up sick with diarrhea.
We had some kittens when I was a kid. They'd been off the teet for a couple of months. My brother and I thought it would be nice to give them some milk so we went to the refrigerator and poured a nice cold saucer of milk for them. All five kittens enjoyed the hell out of it. It was a warm spring day, so my brother and I left them to their adorable kitten devices while we went off to do whatever my brother and I found amusing at 4 and 7.
An hour or so later, we came back to see how the kittens were because... kids love kittens and checking up on them is what we did often. Something else that we did often was give them hugs because... kitten hugs are awesome and our kittens liked us.
They turned out the be the grossest hugs that ever my brother and I had experienced to date or ever after (at least I hope my brother isn't into that sort of thing but if he is... it's not my place to determine what is right and wrong for another grown adult to do in the bedroom... or bathroom but I digress).
What happened next left our shirts sodden and horribly smells. We had literally hugged the poo right out of our little kittens. Now were weren't some Rockwellian type kids, we were gross and often had an antagonistic relationship. Much to the horror of my now adult sensibilities, we turned those little kittens into the worst kind of squirt guns you can imagine (at least I hope it's the worst kind you can imagine...).
Yeah, it was gross but I learned an important science lesson that day. Some mammals stop producing the lactase enzyme and what will happen to their digestive system can become rather horrific. I'm glad I still produce it. I like milk, cheese, ice cream and even the Gelato that I tried for the first time yesterday due to constantly seeing the "Gelato cleanse" thread.
Moral of the story: Some lessons that you learn if life are just downright sh***y.
(no kittens were harmed 30 years ago, the lived to be great mousers, only a year ago did the last one die as a three legged, one eyed female that hunted up until her very last summer. Love you pebbles.)
Nutrition scientists do not often use a feline model....
LOL.0 -
Milk:
White People: Most of you can drink milk. If you like it and don't experience negative effects, go for it.
Every other kind of people: Most of you are lactose intolerant so milk can cause negative effects. If you experience those effects, don't drink it. Otherwise, go for it.
Very simple.0 -
Milk:
White People: Most of you can drink milk. If you like it and don't experience negative effects, go for it.
Every other kind of people: Most of you are lactose intolerant so milk can cause negative effects. If you experience those effects, don't drink it. Otherwise, go for it.
Very simple.
:drinker:0
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