Dairy Alarmism

jim180155

My only question about dairy (and I am a huge ice cream lover) is that, at its foremost, it is food intended for a baby cow. Humans, as should come as no surprise, have nutrition requirements that are MILES away from a cow. Take a look at the constituents of bovine milk vs. human milk. It is pretty interesting. Is it the best thing to use dairy products formulated for a species so vastly different from our own? That is what makes me wonder. Of course, not when I eat my appropriate serving of Ben & Jerry's ice cream!

Edited to add: be wary when using the UDSA to evaluate meat and milk. The USDA's mission (at least one of them) is to promote our over-consumption of meat and dairy. That is why our food pyramids, for so long, has pushed meat, dairy, and cheese as particularly healthy. They are all loaded with saturated fats! There is a really good study out there about dairy, but I don't have my notes in front of me. I think it was the Nurses Heart research study or something like that. Try googling it. It is a real an eye opener about dairy.

That's just downright logical. How dare you bring logic into a MFP forum. Be prepared, the dairy industry plants are about to try and discredit you......

you are the most ridiculous person on this entire site.

Nice. I'll be sending you a friend request soon. Please hold your breath in the meantime.

HollisGrant

I've heard a lot of the arguments against dairy milk, and I think some of them make sense. But I'm not so sure. So I started drinking less dairy milk. Instead of 3 to 5 cups daily, I now drink 1.5 cups in my morning smoothie. I then drink almond milk, coconut milk and soy milk the rest of the day.

Note: Soy milk was supposed to be good for you until it was supposed to be bad for you but now it's supposed to be good for you again unless maybe you're a female in which case it might still be bad for you. Unless it's not.

I don't want to drink too much of a bad thing. I would rather drink a little bit of a bad thing here and a little bit of a bad thing there.


Another note: The argument that dairy milk was intended for baby cows does make some sense to me, and that gets compounded when you consider the treatment of factory farmed animals. What I'm not clear on is coconut milk. Was my coconut milk supposed to go to baby coconuts?

I love chocolate soy milk, but discovered I can't digest it. Apparently that's a big problem for a lot of people.

Almond milk is low calorie but doesn't have the protein of dairy -- it's okay if you just want some liquid on your cereal, etc.

I don't have problems digesting dairy milk, but stopped drinking it because Georgetown Hospital doctors said a longterm diet raised your cancer risk (detailed in my post above).

I also agree with the baby cow statements -- dairy contains hormones intended for animals, plus I don't like the way factory farm animals are treated. I don't have to consume dairy. There are plenty of other foods out there.

Rocbola

you are the most ridiculous person on this entire site.

Nice. I'll be sending you a friend request soon. Please hold your breath in the meantime.

Well said, Jim. That comment didn't even show up on my end; whoever it was who said that is already on my ignore list. Gee, i wonder why....

lemurcat12

My only question about dairy (and I am a huge ice cream lover) is that, at its foremost, it is food intended for a baby cow.

This is why my family has invested in a lactating chimp. More genetic similarities and all.

Kidding, obviously.

I seriously don't get this idea that natural items used for food are designed for a particular purpose or not. Just because cow milk is suited for the nutritional needs of a baby cow says nothing about whether it also fits human nutritional needs. My avatar's nutritional needs are well met with poultry, but that doesn't mean that poultry was designed for cats to eat and not humans (or "designed" to be nutrition at all, really). People mostly seem to do this with milk, and I don't get it.

Anyway, as others have said, lots of people have issues, physical or ethical, with dairy and so they probably shouldn't drink milk. Since I don't (ancestors from NW Europe, so not surprising), I don't see why I shouldn't.

jim180155

I've heard a lot of the arguments against dairy milk, and I think some of them make sense. But I'm not so sure. So I started drinking less dairy milk. Instead of 3 to 5 cups daily, I now drink 1.5 cups in my morning smoothie. I then drink almond milk, coconut milk and soy milk the rest of the day.

Note: Soy milk was supposed to be good for you until it was supposed to be bad for you but now it's supposed to be good for you again unless maybe you're a female in which case it might still be bad for you. Unless it's not.

I don't want to drink too much of a bad thing. I would rather drink a little bit of a bad thing here and a little bit of a bad thing there.


Another note: The argument that dairy milk was intended for baby cows does make some sense to me, and that gets compounded when you consider the treatment of factory farmed animals. What I'm not clear on is coconut milk. Was my coconut milk supposed to go to baby coconuts?

I love chocolate soy milk, but discovered I can't digest it. Apparently that's a big problem for a lot of people.

Almond milk is low calorie but doesn't have the protein of dairy -- it's okay if you just want some liquid on your cereal, etc.

I don't have problems digesting dairy milk, but stopped drinking it because Georgetown Hospital doctors said a longterm diet raised your cancer risk (detailed in my post above).

I also agree with the baby cow statements -- dairy contains hormones intended for animals, plus I don't like the way factory farm animals are treated. I don't have to consume dairy. There are plenty of other foods out there.

You and I have similar opinions and see similar drawbacks. The difference seems to be that you went further with the info than I did.

Last year I read that the typical American diet requires the slaughter of 100 animals annually. That bothered me. It took a while for me to take action, but I eventually tried a vegan lifestyle. That lasted just a little over 3 months, and then I started adding meat and dairy back in to my diet. My diet is now mostly whole food plant based. I eat much less meat and dairy than I did a year ago.

If 100 animals were dying annually on my behalf before, it's probably only about 30 animals now. I try not to think about the 30 animals. I think instead of the 70 animals I'm saving each year.

Manda86

This is why my family has invested in a lactating chimp. More genetic similarities and all.

My brain knows this is a joke, but my stomach (which is getting over a bug) feels more like ...

Rocbola

This is why my family has invested in a lactating chimp. More genetic similarities and all.

My brain knows this is a joke, but my stomach (which is getting over a bug) feels more like ...

Oh, come on, why is the milk of one species good, but the other invokes the immediate response of disgust?

kgeyser

My only question about dairy (and I am a huge ice cream lover) is that, at its foremost, it is food intended for a baby cow. Humans, as should come as no surprise, have nutrition requirements that are MILES away from a cow. Take a look at the constituents of bovine milk vs. human milk. It is pretty interesting. Is it the best thing to use dairy products formulated for a species so vastly different from our own?

I'm an extended breastfeeding mom, going on 23 months with this kiddo, and to be honest, people would have the same issues with human breastmilk if it were used in foods as they do with cow, sheep, goat, buffalo, and any other kind of animal milk. Some people are repulsed that I'm nursing a child who walks, talks, and has a full set of teeth because apparently breastmilk is only for teeny tiny babies.

Most, if not all, of the things we eat in this world (save breastmilk) were not formulated specifically for us, that doesn't necessarily make consuming them a bad thing. If someone doesn't want to eat dairy, that's fine, I just don't see any validity in the "not for humans" claims that people make from their soapboxes.*

*Not you, I know that you were contributing a thought to the discussion and not being preachy.

jmv7117

Maybe this has been around for a very long time, but I am starting to notice that many people regard milk and dairy as unhealthy. Considering that I do consume quite a bit of dairy, I spent a little time digging for information on why dairy is so bad for me.

With a quick web search, one can find numerous supposed reasons that dairy is terrible for you. However, after looking into many of the reasons, I feel that there is little to no scientific reason for me to avoid dairy. Everything seemed to either be a complete joke or at best lacking good support.

Help a man out. Are there any legitimate dairy concerns, backed by a consensus of good research?

Legitimate concerns ==> lactose intolerance, milk allergy, simply don't like the taste

I don't drink milk and never had must to the dismay of my doctor when I was expecting. All the kids were born healthy without the benefit of cow's milk during pregnancy and all are lactose intolerant. I am lactose intolerant but can tolerate some cheeses and yogurt without a problem. Hard cheeses are least problematic. As far as alarmism, you can find that with just about anything you eat although there is more research supporting that alarm with some foods than others.

Manda86

This is why my family has invested in a lactating chimp. More genetic similarities and all.

My brain knows this is a joke, but my stomach (which is getting over a bug) feels more like ...

Oh, come on, why is the milk of one species good, but the other invokes the immediate response of disgust?

I apologize if I've offended your delicate sensibilities. If you enjoy chimp milk, by all means, please continue to do so, I give you my blessing (which is to say, lighten up, I never intended to disparage the chimp-milking industry... the juxtaposition of lactating and chimp makes my primitive, unenlightened stomach do flip-flops after 48 hours of constant nausea).

susannamarie

*shrugs*

If you don't like milk, don't drink it.

If you like milk but think that it's making you sick, try a month without it and see if you feel better.

In the interests of science, I went a month without it a while back. I did not notice a difference in health at all, either after removing it or after re-adding it. I did notice the absence of yummy in my tummy, so re-added it. I have friends, though, who have reported significant health benefits from removing it from their diet, even though they had not realized they were having a problem with it. It's worth trying.

The "wasn't designed for us" is a ridiculous argument, though. No food was designed for us -- everything we eat was designed (by evolution) for the species it came from. We said "hey, that tastes good" and selectively bred it to get more of what we liked. Consider some vegetables - http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/IIIE4Evochange.shtml - these are parts of plants designed to either absorb sunlight (leaves) or attract fertilizing insects for reproduction (flowers), not dropped from the sky to be eaten by humans. The only place where you might have a point would be fruits, which have evolved to be tasty so that animals will eat them and spread the seeds, thus allowing the plant to reproduce. However, fruits in the wild are far smaller and less sugary than most of the fruits we eat now (think berries vs. bananas and grapes), so you can't really say that that's what we're "supposed" to be eating either. We've been modifying our food sources and adapting to what was around us for a long, long time.

I would argue that if drinking milk were seriously the net negative that some claim it is, lactase tolerance wouldn't have evolved so many different times (is it three or four?) and spread through the population so rapidly (it's a very recent evolution).

craftywitch_63

The dairy conspiracy started a very long time ago on a small dairy farm in Switzerland and after getting the local population hooked on icecream and chocolate milk has spread around the world.......be very weary of any person, place or gov't that offers it for sale......keep away for older people and small children especially. Thank you.

Oh cr@p, does that mean I have to give back all of the government cheese?:sad:

Achrya

This is why my family has invested in a lactating chimp. More genetic similarities and all.

My brain knows this is a joke, but my stomach (which is getting over a bug) feels more like ...

Oh, come on, why is the milk of one species good, but the other invokes the immediate response of disgust?

I apologize if I've offended your delicate sensibilities. If you enjoy chimp milk, by all means, please continue to do so, I give you my blessing (which is to say, lighten up, I never intended to disparage the chimp-milking industry... the juxtaposition of lactating and chimp makes my primitive, unenlightened stomach do flip-flops after 48 hours of constant nausea).

That doesn't even make sense. If you laid off the milk, chimp or otherwise, you'd probably gain some of your senses back.

I actually understood it without issue.

Maybe a lack of milk is messing with your comprehension skills?

wheird

My only question about dairy (and I am a huge ice cream lover) is that, at its foremost, it is food intended for a baby cow. Humans, as should come as no surprise, have nutrition requirements that are MILES away from a cow. Take a look at the constituents of bovine milk vs. human milk. It is pretty interesting. Is it the best thing to use dairy products formulated for a species so vastly different from our own? That is what makes me wonder. Of course, not when I eat my appropriate serving of Ben & Jerry's ice cream!

Edited to add: be wary when using the UDSA to evaluate meat and milk. The USDA's mission (at least one of them) is to promote our over-consumption of meat and dairy. That is why our food pyramids, for so long, has pushed meat, dairy, and cheese as particularly healthy. They are all loaded with saturated fats! There is a really good study out there about dairy, but I don't have my notes in front of me. I think it was the Nurses Heart research study or something like that. Try googling it. It is a real an eye opener about dairy.

I'm sorry, but this is the most asinine argument that I've ever heard. Apples were not intended for human consumption either, they were intended as a medium to house, nurture, and fertilize the apple seeds within them. Eggs were meant to house avian embryos. Almond milk was meant for baby almonds.

See how this can go?

Manda86

That doesn't even make sense. If you laid off the milk, chimp or otherwise, you'd probably gain some of your senses back.

Rocbola

I'm sorry, but this is the most asinine argument that I've ever heard. Apples were not intended for human consumption either, they were intended as a medium to house, nurture, and fertilize the apple seeds within them.

The apple tree's intent is to plant it's seeds, i agree with that, but without interaction from frugivores, the fruit tree's seed would rarely ever make it farther than the base of the tree.

Apples started in central Asia, and because of humans, they are now grown all over the world. Humans, and other frugivores, have a symbiotic relationship with fruit. They give us delicious food, and we spread their seed far and wide.

TO THE APPLE TREE: You're welcome. Sincerely, the human race.

TO THE COW: My deepest apologies about the whole enslavement thing. Our bad. We had bad nutritional info.

Otterluv

I'm sorry, but this is the most asinine argument that I've ever heard. Apples were not intended for human consumption either, they were intended as a medium to house, nurture, and fertilize the apple seeds within them.

The apple tree's intent is to plant it's seeds, i agree with that, but without interaction from frugivores, the fruit tree's seed would rarely ever make it farther than the base of the tree.

Apples started in central Asia, and because of humans, they are now grown all over the world. Humans, and other frugivores, have a symbiotic relationship with fruit. They give us delicious food, and we spread their seed far and wide.

TO THE APPLE TREE: You're welcome. Sincerely, the human race.

TO THE COW: My deepest apologies about the whole enslavement thing. Our bad. We had bad nutritional info.

Now you are intertwining the moral/ethical issue with bad nutritional info. I'm sorry, there may be an ethical argument to be made, but you clouding it with bad science by trying to make the argument against drinking milk about nutrition is not helping your case. It just makes it sound ridiculous.

Please note that I am not encouraging a discussion on the ethics of dairy. MFP is not the place for it, it can only go down in a fiery storm. It's a very complex discussion to have, and is one that is not black and white in the least.

OP: even for those of us who are lactose intolerant, there is lactose free milk (which I drink), so that's not even always a problem. There are those who are allergic to dairy, but they are the exception and not the rule.

Otterluv

Now you are intertwining the moral/ethical issue with bad nutritional info. I'm sorry, there may be an ethical argument to be made, but you clouding it with bad science by trying to make the argument against drinking milk about nutrition is not helping your case. It just makes it sound ridiculous.

What bad science did use? Dairy is TERRIBLE for you. That is why i talk most about the health aspects of it. If you want to focus in on one sentence where i touched upon the ethics with part of the sentence, that makes you ridiculous.

**sigh

If the zillions of times that you have had this argument with people and they have given you solid, cited info has had no impact on your narrow view on this topic, my getting into a discussion with you about this is absolutely pointless. Just take the knowledgeable folks off of ignore and read through your post history to see it all.

I will go back to memorizing the periods of Japanese Art history, which I will forget the day after my quiz (because, memorization). But, even that seems more production.

kjw0528

Why does anyone care what other people eat and drink?