Dairy Alarmism
Replies
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As to the common argument that we are the only species that consume milk from other species, there's also some evidence to refute that as well: http://www.mastozoologiamexicana.org/doi/10.12933/therya-10-14/therya-10-14
That is fascinating. I've not heard of that before. Thanks for posting.0 -
Besides lactose intolerances and allergies (which is a legit nutritional reason to avoid dairy) this recent paper dispels the other myth that has tried to be fabricated to support stances against milk.
Again, science...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22081694/0 -
Dairy is fine if your body produces the enzyme lactase. The very recent evolution of the ability to digest dairy products in adulthood is fascinating... this trait has evolved in populations with a long history of dairy farming/herding, e.g. Europeans, Masai (in Africa)... what's most interesting is that this trait evolved at least twice, i.e. separately in both those populations, and it may be the case that it's evolved separately in other dairy/herding populations (the alternative is that gene flow between populations resulted in the trait spreading from one population to another,but it's been demonstrated in scientific studies that the European mutation and Masai mutation for digesting dairy as adults are different and arose separately).
Anyway, whether you find that kind of thing interesting or not, the ability to digest lactose is quite closely tied to ethnic origin (although it's not 100% because of gene flow and archaic genes sticking around) so if your ancestors over the last few thousand years were dairy farmers or herders, chances are you can digest dairy just fine, and there's no reason to avoid it. If your ancestors from this time period didn't have anything to do with dairy, then there's a high probability that you can't digest dairy and in that case you should avoid it. But usually people who are lactose intolerant know about it without being told this information due to getting sick when they eat dairy.
Dairy allergy is separate to lactose intolerance and while I'd love to know the evolutionary history of allergy (which is probably a defence against parasitic infection) I don't know much about it or examples of any particular populations it evolved in. But if you're allergic to milk that's another reason not to drink it.
Unfortunately there's a lot of pseudoscience against milk because both the vegan crowd and the paleo crowd hate on it. There are few things that these two groups agree on, but hatred of dairy products is one. And both groups will tell you "milk is for baby cows not for humans" they also both tend to ignore or be unaware of the fact that humans are highly adaptable in terms of diet, and the ability to digest dairy products has evolved in populations with a long enough history of dairy farming/herding.
I, personally, am from the British Isles and the Britain a history of dairy farming going back at least 5000 years; I can digest dairy just fine and will continue to consume dairy products
:drinker: @ dairy products and the lactase persistence gene
tl;dr: if dairy makes you sick don't eat/drink it, if it doesn't and you like it then eat/drink it
In to say thank you for sharing this. How fascinating! I'm a big 'ol Eastern and Western European mutt. I'm sure my ancestors from Ireland, Scotland and probably Poland were farmers. No one in my family has ever had a problem with dairy.
Also, if ice cream is wrong I don't ever want to be right.0 -
There are limits on how much pus, blood and fecal bacteria is allowed in milk. Beneficial bacteria exists in milk, as well. Bacteria exists in so many foods...sour dough bread, cheese, alcohol, kimchi, ham, yogurt, etc. Chug a glass of milk, fresh from the cow, or pass, to each his/her own.0
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This whole post makes me want a 1/3 lb bacon cheeseburger that gets washed down with a giant glass of ice cold cow's milk, preferable stolen from a hungry calf. Because I'm at the top of the food chain.
Oddly, i have no desire to eat fruit...0 -
Besides lactose intolerances and allergies (which is a legit nutritional reason to avoid dairy) this recent paper dispels the other myth that has tried to be fabricated to support stances against milk.
Again, science...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22081694/
Bookmarked! I
science SO much... 0 -
I'm not aware of any evidence that dairy is arbitrarily bad for people who can tolerate it.
I'm aware of multiple sources of evidence that it may be beneficial, some of which has been posted earlier in this thread.
However as with pretty much any individual food source, you can freely select foods that fit your preferences and/or ethics as long as you can find a way to meet your nutrient needs.
Just be careful not to make stuff up about that food item just because it doesn't fit your code of ethics.
As to the common argument that we are the only species that consume milk from other species, there's also some evidence to refute that as well: http://www.mastozoologiamexicana.org/doi/10.12933/therya-10-14/therya-10-14
Although it is not dairy the ants are receiving, some have a very similar relationship to aphids that humans and dairy cattle have.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071009212548.htm0 -
Note: Soy milk was supposed to be good for you until it was supposed to be bad for you but now it's supposed to be good for you again unless maybe you're a female in which case it might still be bad for you. Unless it's not.
Lol...I swear every other day on Yahoo health or whatever they call it, they have this kind of contradicting information. One day eggs will kill you, the next day they make you live forever. I just don't care anymore. I'll do what I want, see how it affects me, and go from there.0 -
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HIgh five for the Tim Curry gif. I needed that this morning.0 -
I eat cheese every day and incorporate heavy cream into a lot of my recipes. I also use real butter (is that considered dairy?). Hasn't posed a problem yet unless I go way overboard on the dairy for the day which is very rare.0
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As to the common argument that we are the only species that consume milk from other species, there's also some evidence to refute that as well: http://www.mastozoologiamexicana.org/doi/10.12933/therya-10-14/therya-10-14
Wow! Thanks for the link.
I think the most fascinating bit of that paper was that not only were the feral cats stealing the milk, but also that gulls had been observed doing the same!0 -
Dairy isn't NEEDED in the human diet. Calcium and other nutrients can be attained through other sources. That said, there's no ****ing way I'm giving up cheese, yogurt, and ice cream.
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
Dairy isn't NEEDED in the human diet. Calcium and other nutrients can be attained through other sources. That said, there's no ****ing way I'm giving up cheese, yogurt, and ice cream.
Yeah, it's very "neutral" in the diet, which neither "side" really wants to admit.0 -
Why not try a month without dairy, and decide for yourself?
I did this, for about 3 months when I was dating a guy who thought drinking milk was tantamount to clubbing baby seals. I started drinking it again the day we broke up*. I felt good before the milk drinking stopped, I felt good while I wasn't drinking it and I felt good when I started drinking it again. My cereal, however, was much better post breakup. I'll continue to drink it because I like it the exact same way I continue to eat all the foods I like, just less of them as I move more.
*Though my sample size is ridiculously small, I will not be dating anyone else that has an unhealthy 'Spanish Inquisitor' approach to any food.
No specific food is NEEDED for the diet but variety IS the spice of life.0 -
No specific food is NEEDED for the diet but variety IS the spice of life.
^^This...0 -
That's just downright logical. How dare you bring logic into a MFP forum. Be prepared, the dairy industry plants are about to try and discredit you......My only question about dairy (and I am a huge ice cream lover) is that, at its foremost, it is food intended for a baby cow. Humans, as should come as no surprise, have nutrition requirements that are MILES away from a cow. Take a look at the constituents of bovine milk vs. human milk. It is pretty interesting. Is it the best thing to use dairy products formulated for a species so vastly different from our own? That is what makes me wonder. Of course, not when I eat my appropriate serving of Ben & Jerry's ice cream!
Edited to add: be wary when using the UDSA to evaluate meat and milk. The USDA's mission (at least one of them) is to promote our over-consumption of meat and dairy. That is why our food pyramids, for so long, has pushed meat, dairy, and cheese as particularly healthy. They are all loaded with saturated fats! There is a really good study out there about dairy, but I don't have my notes in front of me. I think it was the Nurses Heart research study or something like that. Try googling it. It is a real an eye opener about dairy.
The "dairy industry plants" Oh my gosh I am dying right now. Seriously, this is solid gold, the word logic next to such blatant conspiracy nonsense. God, I wish I was being paid by big dairy to sit around reading this crap on MFP.0 -
Help a man out. Are there any legitimate dairy concerns, backed by a consensus of good research?
Unless you have an intolerance, no. I haven't seen anything beyond alarmism and agenda-pushing.
^ This. The arguments against dairy seem to range from the mildly amusing to the truly laughable.
+1
milk, cheese, yogurt, ice cream....what's NOT to like?0 -
I've heard a lot of the arguments against dairy milk, and I think some of them make sense. But I'm not so sure. So I started drinking less dairy milk. Instead of 3 to 5 cups daily, I now drink 1.5 cups in my morning smoothie. I then drink almond milk, coconut milk and soy milk the rest of the day.
Note: Soy milk was supposed to be good for you until it was supposed to be bad for you but now it's supposed to be good for you again unless maybe you're a female in which case it might still be bad for you. Unless it's not.
I don't want to drink too much of a bad thing. I would rather drink a little bit of a bad thing here and a little bit of a bad thing there.
Another note: The argument that dairy milk was intended for baby cows does make some sense to me, and that gets compounded when you consider the treatment of factory farmed animals. What I'm not clear on is coconut milk. Was my coconut milk supposed to go to baby coconuts?
I love chocolate soy milk, but discovered I can't digest it. Apparently that's a big problem for a lot of people.
Almond milk is low calorie but doesn't have the protein of dairy -- it's okay if you just want some liquid on your cereal, etc.
I don't have problems digesting dairy milk, but stopped drinking it because Georgetown Hospital doctors said a longterm diet raised your cancer risk (detailed in my post above).
I also agree with the baby cow statements -- dairy contains hormones intended for animals, plus I don't like the way factory farm animals are treated. I don't have to consume dairy. There are plenty of other foods out there.
If you can't go dairy, chocolate hemp milk FTW!0 -
If we're plants, doesn't that mean we're on the payroll? WHERE'S MY MONEY????
That's just downright logical. How dare you bring logic into a MFP forum. Be prepared, the dairy industry plants are about to try and discredit you......My only question about dairy (and I am a huge ice cream lover) is that, at its foremost, it is food intended for a baby cow. Humans, as should come as no surprise, have nutrition requirements that are MILES away from a cow. Take a look at the constituents of bovine milk vs. human milk. It is pretty interesting. Is it the best thing to use dairy products formulated for a species so vastly different from our own? That is what makes me wonder. Of course, not when I eat my appropriate serving of Ben & Jerry's ice cream!
Edited to add: be wary when using the UDSA to evaluate meat and milk. The USDA's mission (at least one of them) is to promote our over-consumption of meat and dairy. That is why our food pyramids, for so long, has pushed meat, dairy, and cheese as particularly healthy. They are all loaded with saturated fats! There is a really good study out there about dairy, but I don't have my notes in front of me. I think it was the Nurses Heart research study or something like that. Try googling it. It is a real an eye opener about dairy.
The "dairy industry plants" Oh my gosh I am dying right now. Seriously, this is solid gold, the word logic next to such blatant conspiracy nonsense. God, I wish I was being paid by big dairy to sit around reading this crap on MFP.0 -
Irony so heavy, even Sidesteel couldn't lift it.
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I suppose, if you're ok with enslaving hemps and stealing their baby's food.I've heard a lot of the arguments against dairy milk, and I think some of them make sense. But I'm not so sure. So I started drinking less dairy milk. Instead of 3 to 5 cups daily, I now drink 1.5 cups in my morning smoothie. I then drink almond milk, coconut milk and soy milk the rest of the day.
Note: Soy milk was supposed to be good for you until it was supposed to be bad for you but now it's supposed to be good for you again unless maybe you're a female in which case it might still be bad for you. Unless it's not.
I don't want to drink too much of a bad thing. I would rather drink a little bit of a bad thing here and a little bit of a bad thing there.
Another note: The argument that dairy milk was intended for baby cows does make some sense to me, and that gets compounded when you consider the treatment of factory farmed animals. What I'm not clear on is coconut milk. Was my coconut milk supposed to go to baby coconuts?
I love chocolate soy milk, but discovered I can't digest it. Apparently that's a big problem for a lot of people.
Almond milk is low calorie but doesn't have the protein of dairy -- it's okay if you just want some liquid on your cereal, etc.
I don't have problems digesting dairy milk, but stopped drinking it because Georgetown Hospital doctors said a longterm diet raised your cancer risk (detailed in my post above).
I also agree with the baby cow statements -- dairy contains hormones intended for animals, plus I don't like the way factory farm animals are treated. I don't have to consume dairy. There are plenty of other foods out there.
If you can't go dairy, chocolate hemp milk FTW!0 -
I suppose, if you're ok with enslaving hemps and stealing their baby's food.I've heard a lot of the arguments against dairy milk, and I think some of them make sense. But I'm not so sure. So I started drinking less dairy milk. Instead of 3 to 5 cups daily, I now drink 1.5 cups in my morning smoothie. I then drink almond milk, coconut milk and soy milk the rest of the day.
Note: Soy milk was supposed to be good for you until it was supposed to be bad for you but now it's supposed to be good for you again unless maybe you're a female in which case it might still be bad for you. Unless it's not.
I don't want to drink too much of a bad thing. I would rather drink a little bit of a bad thing here and a little bit of a bad thing there.
Another note: The argument that dairy milk was intended for baby cows does make some sense to me, and that gets compounded when you consider the treatment of factory farmed animals. What I'm not clear on is coconut milk. Was my coconut milk supposed to go to baby coconuts?
I love chocolate soy milk, but discovered I can't digest it. Apparently that's a big problem for a lot of people.
Almond milk is low calorie but doesn't have the protein of dairy -- it's okay if you just want some liquid on your cereal, etc.
I don't have problems digesting dairy milk, but stopped drinking it because Georgetown Hospital doctors said a longterm diet raised your cancer risk (detailed in my post above).
I also agree with the baby cow statements -- dairy contains hormones intended for animals, plus I don't like the way factory farm animals are treated. I don't have to consume dairy. There are plenty of other foods out there.
If you can't go dairy, chocolate hemp milk FTW!
I club baby hemp seeds with a rubber mallet!0 -
Note: Soy milk was supposed to be good for you until it was supposed to be bad for you but now it's supposed to be good for you again unless maybe you're a female in which case it might still be bad for you. Unless it's not.
Lol...I swear every other day on Yahoo health or whatever they call it, they have this kind of contradicting information. One day eggs will kill you, the next day they make you live forever. I just don't care anymore. I'll do what I want, see how it affects me, and go from there.
The media often misrepresents what studies actually say. It is best to investigate any such 'new' claims by looking at the primary research, or meta analysis addressing an issue to get a better idea. You can wait until it starts effecting you, but that might take years. :frown:0 -
See, and here I tried to start a thread last night about the evils of potatoes being forced on me by dairy queen and no one would listen! Clearly evil dairy conspiracies are just more fun! Now to guzzle my coffee with a liberal addition of half and half.0
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That's just downright logical. How dare you bring logic into a MFP forum. Be prepared, the dairy industry plants are about to try and discredit you......My only question about dairy (and I am a huge ice cream lover) is that, at its foremost, it is food intended for a baby cow. Humans, as should come as no surprise, have nutrition requirements that are MILES away from a cow. Take a look at the constituents of bovine milk vs. human milk. It is pretty interesting. Is it the best thing to use dairy products formulated for a species so vastly different from our own? That is what makes me wonder. Of course, not when I eat my appropriate serving of Ben & Jerry's ice cream!
Edited to add: be wary when using the UDSA to evaluate meat and milk. The USDA's mission (at least one of them) is to promote our over-consumption of meat and dairy. That is why our food pyramids, for so long, has pushed meat, dairy, and cheese as particularly healthy. They are all loaded with saturated fats! There is a really good study out there about dairy, but I don't have my notes in front of me. I think it was the Nurses Heart research study or something like that. Try googling it. It is a real an eye opener about dairy.
The "dairy industry plants" Oh my gosh I am dying right now. Seriously, this is solid gold, the word logic next to such blatant conspiracy nonsense. God, I wish I was being paid by big dairy to sit around reading this crap on MFP.
That's not all. He also accused us of not having critical thinking skills, while posting a link to blatant anti-dairy propaganda.
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I haven't seen anything beyond alarmism and agenda-pushing.
it is in fact the dairy industry that is agenda-pushing by making people believe dairy is good for them. oh the money that can be made off gambling with other peoples health!0 -
it is in fact the dairy industry that is agenda-pushing by making people believe dairy is good for them. oh the money that can be made off gambling with other peoples health!
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it is in fact the dairy industry that is agenda-pushing by making people believe dairy is good for them. oh the money that can be made off gambling with other peoples health!
*giggles*
in all seriousness though, people will always have different opinions, people will always put their trust and believes in different things. i can accept that and live with it so long as noone offends others too much!
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it is in fact the dairy industry that is agenda-pushing by making people believe dairy is good for them. oh the money that can be made off gambling with other peoples health!
*giggles*
in all seriousness though, people will always have different opinions, people will always put their trust and believes in different things. i can accept that and live with it so long as noone offends others too much!
i wouldn't worry so much about Big Dairy...
...however, if you want to be worried, be worried about Big Brussels Sprouts. now *THAT* is a cabal with truly evil intentions.
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...however, if you want to be worried, be worried about Big Brussels Sprouts. now *THAT* is a cabal with truly evil intentions.
thats why we need to eat them quickly before they eat us!0
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