How to tell vegan friends to back off?!
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Vegan diets move a lot of nutritious and enjoyable food onto an imagined naughty list. It's not a superior way to eat if you consider health, convenience, and the pleasure of eating juicy beef and chicken flesh. Veganism is simply an overly restrictive diet. However, I could see adopting a vegan diet on ethical grounds, especially considering the cruel way most of our tasty, nutritious animal products are produced.
When was the last time you were actually on a farm to see how animals were treated, instead of merely reading and watching the heavily edited anti-animal agriculture propaganda put out by animal liberationists?Would you tell someone to respect a rapist's decision? No? Ok.
No, not ok. This statement does nothing to support your arguments.
You expect everyone else to respect your superior morals and eating habits, but you don't have to behave respectfully toward others, simply BECAUSE you think your views are superior.
You are exactly like a religious zealot shoving your belief system down other people's throats. Is it ok when someone does that to you? No? Ok.
I breed dogs for conformation shows and work (ratting). I also work on a goat farm. That kind of seriously damaged "ethical" vegan is the kind I typically encounter. Thus, my views on veganism. You'd be surprised how many of *that* type are out there.
That makes sense. If I encountered only the militant types, I would probably share your disdain for veganism as a whole. I've been fortunate to know many more awesome chill vegans than the crazies. Sorry that is not the case for you.0 -
http://authoritynutrition.com/top-5-reasons-why-vegan-diets-are-a-terrible-idea/
Top 5 Reasons Why Vegan Diets Are a Terrible Idea
Woman Who Does Not Like VegetablesThere is no one right way to eat for everyone.
We are all different and what works for one person may not work for the next.
I personally advocate consumption of both animals and plants and I think there is plenty of evidence that this is a reasonable way to eat.
However, I often get comments from vegans who think that people should eliminate all animal foods.
They frequently say that I’m giving out dangerous advice, that I must be corrupt and sponsored by the meat and dairy industry, or that I’m simply misinformed and need to read The China Study.
Really… I have nothing against vegans or vegetarians.
If you want to eat in this way for whatever reason and you are feeling good and improving your health, then great! Keep on doing what you’re doing.
But I do have a serious problem when proponents of this diet are using lies and fear mongering to try and convince everyone else to eat in the same way.
I’m tired of having to constantly defend my position regarding animal foods, so I decided to summarize what I think are the key problems with vegan diets.
Here are 5 reasons why I think vegan (as in no animal foods at all) diets are a bad idea
1. Vegans Are Deficient in Many Important Nutrients
Humans are omnivores. We function best eating both animals and plants.
There are some nutrients that can only be gotten from plants (like Vitamin C) and others that can only be gotten from animals.
Vitamin B12 is a water soluble vitamin that is involved in the function of every cell in the body.
It is particularly important in the formation of blood and the function of the brain.
Because B12 is critical for life and isn’t found in any amount in plants (except some types of algae), it is by far the most important nutrient that vegans must be concerned with.
In fact, B12 deficiency is very common in vegans, one study showing that a whopping 92% of vegans are deficient in this critical nutrient (1).
But B12 is just the tip of the iceberg… there are other lesser known nutrients that are only found in animal foods and are critical for optimal function of the body.
Here are a few examples:
Animal protein contains all the essential amino acids in the right ratios. It is important for muscle mass and bone health, to name a few. Vegans don’t get any animal protein, which can have negative effects on body composition (2, 3, 4, 5).
Creatine helps form an energy reservoir in cells. Studies show that vegetarians are deficient in creatine, which has harmful effects on muscle and brain function (6, 7, 8).
Carnosine is protective against various degenerative processes in the body and may protect against aging. It is found only in animal foods (9, 10, 11).
Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA) is the most active form of Omega-3 fatty acids in the body and primarily found in animal foods. The plant form of Omega-3s, ALA, is inefficiently converted to DHA in the body (12, 13, 14).
Two other nutrients that have been demonized by vegan proponents are saturated fat and cholesterol.
Cholesterol is a crucial molecule in the body and is part of every cell membrane. It is also used to make steroid hormones like testosterone. Studies show that saturated fat intake correlates with increased testosterone levels (15).
Not surprisingly, vegans and vegetarians have much lower testosterone levels than meat eaters (16, 17, 18, 19).
Bottom Line: Vegans are deficient in many important nutrients, including Vitamin B12 and Creatine. Studies show that vegans have much lower testosterone levels than their meat-eating counterparts.
2. There Are No Studies Showing That They’re Better Than Other Diets
Despite what vegan proponents often claim, there are no controlled trials showing that these diets are any better than other diets.
They often claim that low-carb, high-fat diets (the opposite of vegan diets) are dangerous and that the evidence clearly shows vegan diets to be superior.
I disagree.
This has actually been studied in a high quality randomized controlled trial (the gold standard of science).
The A to Z study compared the Atkins (low-carb, high-fat) diet to the Ornish (low-fat, near-vegan) diet (20).
This study clearly shows that the Atkins diet causes greater improvements in pretty much all health markers, although not all of them were statistically significant:
The Atkins group lost more weight, 10.4 lbs, while the Ornish group lost only 5.6 lbs.
The Atkins group had greater decreases in blood pressure.
The Atkins group had greater increases in HDL (the “good”) cholesterol.
The Atkins group had greater decreases in Triglycerides. They went down by 29.3 mg/dL on Atkins, only 14.9 mg/dL on Ornish.
Then the Atkins dieters were about twice as likely to make it to the end of the study, indicating that the Atkins diet was easier to follow.
Put simply, the Atkins diet had several important advantages while the Ornish diet performed poorly for all health markers measured.
Now, there are some studies showing health benefits and lower mortality in vegetarians and vegans, such as the Seventh-Day Adventist Studies (21, 22).
The problem with these studies is that they are so-called observational studies. These types of studies can only demonstrate correlation, not causation.
The vegetarians are probably healthier because they are more health conscious overall, eat more vegetables, are less likely to smoke, more likely to exercise, etc. It has nothing to do with avoiding animal foods.
In another study of 10,000 individuals, where both the vegetarians and non-vegetarians were health conscious, there was no difference in mortality between groups (23).
One controlled trial showed that a vegan diet was more effective against diabetes than the official diet recommended by the American Diabetes Association (24).
However, a low-carb diet has also been studied for this purpose and led to much more powerful beneficial effects (25).
A vegan diet may be better than the typical low-fat diet recommended by the mainstream nutrition organizations, but pretty much any diet fits that description.
Bottom Line: Despite all the propaganda, there isn’t any evidence that vegan diets are any better than other diets. Most of the studies are observational in nature.
3. Proponents of Vegan Diets Use Lies and Fear Mongering to Promote Their Cause
Some vegan proponents aren’t very honest when they try to convince others of the virtues of the vegan diet.
They actively use lies and fear mongering to scare people away from fat and animal foods.
Despite all the propaganda, there really isn’t any evidence that meat, eggs, or animal-derived nutrients like saturated fat and cholesterol cause harm.
People who promote vegan diets should be more honest and not use scare tactics and lies to make people feel guilty about eating animal foods, which are perfectly healthy (if unprocessed and naturally fed).
I’d also like to briefly mention The China Study… which is the holy bible of veganism and apparently “proves” that vegan diets are the way to go.
This was an observational study performed by a scientist who was madly in love with his theories. He cherry picked the data from the study to support his conclusions and ignored the data that didn’t fit.
The main findings of the China study have been thoroughly debunked.
I recommend you look at these two critiques:
Denise Minger: The China Study – Fact or Fallacy
Chris Masterjohn: What Dr. Campbell Won’t Tell You About The China Study
Also… a new study from China came out very recently, directly contradicting the findings of the China study.
According to this study, men eating red meat had a lower risk of cardiovascular disease and women eating red meat had a lower risk of cancer (26).
Bottom Line: Vegan proponents often use fear mongering and scare tactics in order to convince people not to eat animal foods. They frequently cite The China Study as evidence, which has been thoroughly debunked.
4. Vegan Diets May Work in The Short Term, For Other Reasons
If you look at vegan message boards, you will quickly find stories of people who have seen amazing health benefits on a vegan diet.
I’ve got no reason to believe that these people are lying.
But it’s important to keep in mind that this is anecdotal evidence, which isn’t science.
You will find the same kinds of success stories for pretty much any diet.
Then you’ll also find tons of people saying they got terrible results on a vegan diet.
Personally, I think that vegan diets can have health benefits for a lot of people… at least in the short term, before the nutrient deficiencies kick in (which can be partly circumvented by supplementation).
However, I don’t think this has anything to do with avoiding animal foods!
Vegan diets don’t just recommend that people avoid animal foods. They also recommend that people avoid added sugars, refined carbohydrates, processed vegetable oils and trans fats.
Then they suggest that people stop smoking and start exercising. There are so many confounders here that can easily explain all the beneficial effects.
These are extremely unhealthy foods, that’s something the vegans and I agree on. I personally think that avoiding these foods is what is causing the apparent benefits.
I am 100% certain that a plant-based diet that includes at least a little bit of animals (the occasional whole egg or fatty fish, for example) will be much healthier in the long-term than a diet that eliminates animal foods completely.
Bottom Line: Vegan diets also recommend that people shun added sugar, refined carbohydrates, vegetable oils and trans fats. This is probably the reason for any health benefits, not the removal of unprocessed animal foods.
5. There is NO Health Reason to Completely Avoid Animal Foods
Humans have been eating meat for hundreds of thousands (or millions) of years.
We evolved this way.
Our bodies are perfectly capable of digesting, absorbing and making full use of the many beneficial nutrients found in animal foods.
It is true that processed meat causes harm and that it’s disgusting the way “conventionally raised” animals are treated these days.
However, animals that are fed natural diets (like grass-fed cows) and given access to the outdoors are completely different.
Even though processed meat causes harm, which is supported by many studies, the same does NOT apply to natural, unprocessed meat.
Unprocessed red meat, which has been demonized in the past, really doesn’t have any association with cardiovascular disease, diabetes or the risk of death (27, 28).
It has only a very weak link with an increased risk of cancer and this is probably caused by excessive cooking, not the meat itself (29, 30, 31).
Saturated fat has also never been proven to lead to heart disease. A study of almost 350 thousand individuals found literally no association between saturated fat consumption and cardiovascular disease (32, 33, 34).
Studies on eggs show no effect either. Multiple long-term studies have been conducted on egg consumption, which are very rich in cholesterol, and found no negative effects (35, 36).
The thing is that animal foods… meat, fish, eggs and dairy products for those who can tolerate them, are extremely nutritious.
They are loaded with high quality protein, healthy fats, vitamins, minerals and various lesser known nutrients that have important effects on health.
There may be ethical or religious reasons not to eat animals… I get it. But there is no scientifically valid health reason to completely eliminate animal foods.
Take Home Message
At the end of the day, the optimal diet for any one person depends on a lot of things.
This includes age, gender, activity levels, current metabolic health, food culture and personal preference.
Vegan diets may be appropriate for some people, not others. Different strokes for different folks.
If you want to eat a vegan diet, then make sure to be prudent about your diet. Take the necessary supplements and read some of the books by the vegan docs, I’m sure they at least know how to safely apply a vegan diet.
If you’re getting results, feeling good and are managing to stick to your healthy lifestyle, then that’s great. If it ain’t broken, don’t fix it.
But don’t use fear mongering and scare tactics to persuade people to join your cause and scare them away from perfectly healthy animal foods. That ain’t cool.0 -
Tell them to bugger off.0
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Please, put yourself on a deserted island without modern agriculture or modern science and see how long you can go without eating meat. Not enough roots, tubers, fruits and berries will be found just growing wild to sustain life for an extended period of time. I would impose my desire to live by consuming the flesh, just like our ancient ancestors did and the reason you are here now.For all the people saying the OPs friend needs to respect their choice. Eating meet is not a personal choice when it ends the life of another living being. You are imposing your desires on someone else. Would you tell someone to respect a rapist's decision? No? Ok.0 -
For all the people saying the OPs friend needs to respect their choice. Eating meet is not a personal choice when it ends the life of another living being. You are imposing your desires on someone else. Would you tell someone to respect a rapist's decision? No? Ok.
Please keep up this line of argumentation as it definitely demonstrates the level headed and calm approach to debate of vegans everywhere . . .0 -
... and animal agriculture is cruel. if you feel bad then that's on you.
This is ridiculous...0 -
"No other animal drinks milk into adulthood!"
"That's because no other animal is smart enough to figure out how to milk a cow."
The Red Billed Oxpecker, a bird that perches on the udders of an Impala just to drink its milk. Elsewhere, in Isla de Guadalupe, feral cats, seagulls, and sheathbills have been observed stealing the milk directly from the teats of elephant seals.
this is the second thread i posted in insisting that cats love cow milk. they just love it.0 -
So, basically, if you spend even more time eating your special diet and obsessing about the food that goes in your mouth, you can avoid putting a capsule in your mouth--but you have to know what you're doing and be dedicated to it? Do vegans ever stop worrying about eating? Thanks, but no. You can stop trying to justify your diet to me now. I'm really not all that invested in your dietary choices and remain convinced that there are some things about it that saying would probably get me banned from the forums.
You say you're not invested, and yet you keep responding and knocking people who eat a vegan diet. Seems inconsistent.
I wouldn't say adding two tablespoons of nutritional yeast to my dinner is "obsessing". Even so, what's so wrong about being dedicated to something you care about? There are people who spend hours and hours in the gym, prepping food for the week, researching recipes - and they don't have to be vegans. It doesn't even have to be about food. People spend time and energy on things that are important to them.
Just because you don't like it or don't want to do it doesn't mean it doesn't work for others. You may view it as obsessing, but I find a lot of joy in staying healthy while eating a diet that's in line with my morals.
I like you.
I wish vegan threads would stop popping up....it's hard not to respond and they are super frustrating. must. resist. responding......0 -
Vegan diets move a lot of nutritious and enjoyable food onto an imagined naughty list. It's not a superior way to eat if you consider health, convenience, and the pleasure of eating juicy beef and chicken flesh. Veganism is simply an overly restrictive diet. However, I could see adopting a vegan diet on ethical grounds, especially considering the cruel way most of our tasty, nutritious animal products are produced.
When was the last time you were actually on a farm to see how animals were treated, instead of merely reading and watching the heavily edited anti-animal agriculture propaganda put out by animal liberationists?Would you tell someone to respect a rapist's decision? No? Ok.
No, not ok. This statement does nothing to support your arguments.
You expect everyone else to respect your superior morals and eating habits, but you don't have to behave respectfully toward others, simply BECAUSE you think your views are superior.
You are exactly like a religious zealot shoving your belief system down other people's throats. Is it ok when someone does that to you? No? Ok.
I breed dogs for conformation shows and work (ratting). I also work on a goat farm. That kind of seriously damaged "ethical" vegan is the kind I typically encounter. Thus, my views on veganism. You'd be surprised how many of *that* type are out there.
As with any moral code, there are a majority of completely calm, cool, collected people and a few bad apples that ruin the whole bunch. This goes for members of different religions, crossfitters, mothers, every group has its incredibly vocal extremists that the rest of the group is embarrassed of and wishes would just be quiet.
It's unfair to hold the vocal and extreme minority against a group as a whole, is all.0 -
For all the people saying the OPs friend needs to respect their choice. Eating meet is not a personal choice when it ends the life of another living being. You are imposing your desires on someone else. Would you tell someone to respect a rapist's decision? No? Ok.
Oh dear. I typed up a whole paragraph last night, about my research on B12 and the need for supplementation in a variety of diets, to share. I’m so glad I didn’t! It would have been terribly embarrassing for me to appear aligned with this type of thinking.0 -
For all the people saying the OPs friend needs to respect their choice. Eating meet is not a personal choice when it ends the life of another living being. You are imposing your desires on someone else. Would you tell someone to respect a rapist's decision? No? Ok.
Oh dear. I typed up a whole paragraph last night, about my research on B12 and the need for supplementation in a variety of diets, to share. I’m so glad I didn’t! It would have been terribly embarrassing for me to appear aligned with this type of thinking.
No one is ever going to confuse you with that. Contrary to even my own *****ing and complaining above . . .0 -
Um.... we weren't even talking about B12 on that comment so not sure where that came from? And where did I say not to supplement B12 anyway? We were discussing plant proteins...these are two different things. Unfortunately it looks like you're having an argument with what you think I could be saying, but am actually not saying. And FYI my B12 has always solidly been in the healthy range. Also, I don't think anyone's trying to take away your rights, so relax.
Yes, that's why I said chimpanzees are mostly vegetarian, because they are not fully. They eat mostly greens and fruits, with some insects/small animals on the side. When you say "we're omnivores, face it", I'm a little confused- I never said we weren't designed to be able to digest meat. I said we're not obligate omnivores... meaning, we don't *have* to, we're just able to. Difference.Point taken with the koala bear--however, it is an entirely different type of herbivore--not a hoofed herbivore, lives in trees, etc. They are not representative of herbivores and neither are pandas.
On the contrary, chimpanzees are omnivores. The large incisors on most carnivores are not used for tearing. They are used for gripping. We're omnivores, face it. That's what "eat(ing) whatever is convenient" is all about. Human beings did not start developing the brains of modern humans until they began eating an omnivorous diet--so, yes, it was necessary for us to eat meat to become us. We also thrive when we eat meat and receive sufficient nutrition without supplements. Don't preach at me about plant proteins. They are not sufficient. If they were, then there would not be so many vegans on supplements.
Now, I'm a bit concerned why you would state your view on meat proteins, but then tell me I'd be "preaching" if I said anything about plant proteins. It sounds like you are prejudging anything I could say by calling it just preaching. I could tell you that you're inaccurate, and that you can 100% get all your protein needs met by plant proteins. But I doubt you will listen. Perhaps look up on any website that uses scientific basis/research studies and you will find I am correct. Or, the fact that I'm not having muscle atrophy issues despite being a vegetarian for 11 years?
Fine. Become a vegan, then go ahead and eat your plant proteins and don't supplement. Let me know how that works for you. Virtually everyone else says that a vegan needs to supplement to get his/her B12, but obviously you know much better.
A chimpanzee is an omnivore. If it's "mostly a vegetarian," but it eats meat, it's an omnivore--chimpanzees have never heard of flexitarian eating.
I have nothing to say, really, to vegans, particularly "ethical" vegans who would like to end all animal agriculture. Nothing any of them can say will change my mind about my way of life and *no one* who has a disordered manner of thinking about the human/animal relationship should even think s/he has the right to take away *my* rights. If a vegan wants to go ahead and eat nothing but plant matter and processed food and then suffer from a B12 deficiency, that's fine. But it won't be because of anything I said or did; rather it would be because they fooled themselves into believing that their physiology was special.0 -
That guy does not know what he's talking about, nor is he a nutrition expert.http://authoritynutrition.com/top-5-reasons-why-vegan-diets-are-a-terrible-idea/
Top 5 Reasons Why Vegan Diets Are a Terrible Idea
A rebuttal:
http://www.theveganrd.com/2014/04/paleo-advocates-get-vegan-diets-and-saturated-fat-wrong-2.html0 -
this topic is so stupid. All the responses are stupider. People need to do more research than going on one or two websites.0
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Are you saying you can't be a healthy vegan? Yeah, fruits, veggies, beans, whole grains....they're so NOT healthy. Give me a break.0
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What is it with vegans having blue, pink and magenta hair? Around these parts they have gray or mousy brown hair, use no makeup and wear hippie attire. I guess it's a regional thing.
or maybe they dont all fit any particular stereotype?0 -
How to tell a vegan friend to back off?
The same way I deal with anyone imposing their eating styles (any eating style) on my own:
"No thank you and I'd appreciate it if this didn't become a regular or even rare topic of conversation between us. Love you, thanks."0 -
Tell em to stop harrassing you about it, and if they bring it up again, remove yourself from the conversation.0
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What is it with vegans having blue, pink and magenta hair? Around these parts they have gray or mousy brown hair, use no makeup and wear hippie attire. I guess it's a regional thing.
or maybe they dont all fit any particular stereotype?
Okay Officer Paperpudding of the International Headquarters of Political Correctness, Dietary Diversity Department. I've received your citation but I refuse to sign it.
I didn't say all of them.
But I did notice more than 2 self described vegans in this thread with hair color of the rainbow variety. And a few that seem to favor the Morticia/Elvira/Judy Jetson look.
This is a benign observation.
I've known scores of vegans in my general location and the look is much different. Regionally. Yes.
Perhaps the retro Sex Pistols adaptation and the Gothic bend is explained by the possibility that Veganism is countercultural and a countercultural look is compatible with it. Would make sense. And if I'm wrong I'll allow the vegans with adventurous style in personal appearance to correct me.
You seem fun!0 -
You could try something I blurted out in a cafeteria line when someone complained about the food:
"You know, give me enough bbq sauce and I'll eat anything that used to have a face."0 -
Oh and then look them up and down like youre measuring them for the grill.0
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Was a benign observation of mine too newmeadow, that all vegans, like all other random group of x people, won't fit a stereotype.
Not sure how their hair colour is relevant anyway but way to go with your silly OTT response. :laugh:0 -
<>0
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Are you saying you can't be a healthy vegan? Yeah, fruits, veggies, beans, whole grains....they're so NOT healthy. Give me a break.
It's not that simple. The overall diet often lacks sufficient protein and will lack B12 without supplementation.0 -
One word: MarmiteAre you saying you can't be a healthy vegan? Yeah, fruits, veggies, beans, whole grains....they're so NOT healthy. Give me a break.
It's not that simple. The overall diet often lacks sufficient protein and will lack B12 without supplementation.0 -
One word: MarmiteAre you saying you can't be a healthy vegan? Yeah, fruits, veggies, beans, whole grains....they're so NOT healthy. Give me a break.
It's not that simple. The overall diet often lacks sufficient protein and will lack B12 without supplementation.
That is a valid solution to a very restrictive diet. Sounds delicious0 -
Are you saying you can't be a healthy vegan? Yeah, fruits, veggies, beans, whole grains....they're so NOT healthy. Give me a break.
It's not that simple. The overall diet often lacks sufficient protein and will lack B12 without supplementation.
I'll give you that B12 can be difficult to obtain to those who don't plan, but with all the vegan products available in 2014, as well as the abundance of protein options from tofu, tempeh, seitan, etc., protein isn't really an issue in the modern vegan diet.0 -
One word: MarmiteAre you saying you can't be a healthy vegan? Yeah, fruits, veggies, beans, whole grains....they're so NOT healthy. Give me a break.
It's not that simple. The overall diet often lacks sufficient protein and will lack B12 without supplementation.
That is a valid solution to a very restrictive diet. Sounds delicious
Have you *eaten* Marmite?0 -
I'm not a vegan but I have eaten Marmite. Is similar to Vegemite which is very common in Australia, many people eat it in sandwiches, on toast or crumpets or cracker biscuits.
Not sure what point you are making about it?0 -
Are you saying you can't be a healthy vegan? Yeah, fruits, veggies, beans, whole grains....they're so NOT healthy. Give me a break.
It's not that simple. The overall diet often lacks sufficient protein and will lack B12 without supplementation.
I'll give you that B12 can be difficult to obtain to those who don't plan, but with all the vegan products available in 2014, as well as the abundance of protein options from tofu, tempeh, seitan, etc., protein isn't really an issue in the modern vegan diet.
It still takes a good deal of planning and cooking. Unless you're living in a place like Manitou Springs, CO, most restaurants' options will have little to no protein. The point is that you don't simply eat fruits, veggies, and grains and have a healthy diet. I'm not saying that it can't be done.0
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