Chivalry is dead?

SunofaBeach14 · June 2014

I may get som flack for saying this as a woman but I just had this conversation with a friend of mine yesterday. Her kids are mostly grown ( in their) 20's. My son is 8 and my daughter nearly 10. We were talking about puberty starting and soon having "the talk". I felt she gave me the best advice ever when she said don't forget to teach Chris the important parts about dating a girl. That when he takes her out, that should be viewed as a gift from her parents. They are allowing him to take out what they hold dearest to them. He should respect that and treat her as precious as they view her and she is his ultimate responsibility and he should treat her with the utmost respect. This includes holding doors and all things mentioned in this thread. Why is it so wrong for a woman to be treated with respect? Hopefully then if he respects her and holds her high he won't be trying so hard to get in her pants. Too many young girls now don't realize how they should be treated and give everything up so easily.

My kids also are taught manners because it's respectful, both of them boy and girl help out others.

I think there is a balance to be found in all of this, somewhere between the extremes of "we're all exactly the same" and "women are weak" and it's not going to be the same for all people. I'm particularly attracted to my wife because she is intelligent, strong (both in will and increasingly physically), and quite capable of being independent (we've had to live in different cities and even countries on occasion through some of the hardest times of our lives and her determination and fight through chemo was awe inspiring), but she's also very feminine and when she bats her eyelashes my heart melts. Yea, I know it's playful and that's the point, and yea, I know she can kill her own spiders (shhh, just don't tell her I know). She worked professionally for several years before coming home to concentrate on raising our girls and built a fierce reputation in the process. Our relationship works for us but I don't pretend that it's one size fits all. And, I certainly don't pretend to know the "right" way or even the "best" way, just that I adore my wife and love what we have. I hope our girls can find relationships that bring them this much happiness, and yes, I'll be there when the girls are older and dating to put the fear of god in the boys and to help ensure that our daughters are treated with respect. It takes teaching them to love and respect themselves, and being over-protective doesn't help, but again there's a balance to be found.

nickylee76 · June 2014

I may get som flack for saying this as a woman but I just had this conversation with a friend of mine yesterday. Her kids are mostly grown ( in their) 20's. My son is 8 and my daughter nearly 10. We were talking about puberty starting and soon having "the talk". I felt she gave me the best advice ever when she said don't forget to teach Chris the important parts about dating a girl. That when he takes her out, that should be viewed as a gift from her parents. They are allowing him to take out what they hold dearest to them. He should respect that and treat her as precious as they view her and she is his ultimate responsibility and he should treat her with the utmost respect. This includes holding doors and all things mentioned in this thread. Why is it so wrong for a woman to be treated with respect? Hopefully then if he respects her and holds her high he won't be trying so hard to get in her pants. Too many young girls now don't realize how they should be treated and give everything up so easily.

My kids also are taught manners because it's respectful, both of them boy and girl help out others.

I think there is a balance to be found in all of this, somewhere between the extremes of "we're all exactly the same" and "women are weak" and it's not going to be the same for all people. I'm particularly attracted to my wife because she is intelligent, strong (both in will and increasingly physically), and quite capable of being independent (we've had to live in different cities and even countries on occasion through some of the hardest times of our lives and her determination and fight through chemo was awe inspiring), but she's also very feminine and when she bats her eyelashes my heart melts. Yea, I know it's playful and that's the point, and yea, I know she can kill her own spiders (shhh, just don't tell her I know). She worked professionally for several years before coming home to concentrate on raising our girls and built a fierce reputation in the process. Our relationship works for us but I don't pretend that it's one size fits all. And, I certainly don't pretend to know the "right" way or even the "best" way, just that I adore my wife and love what we have. I hope our girls can find relationships that bring them this much happiness, and yes, I'll be there when the girls are older and dating to put the fear of god in the boys and to help ensure that our daughters are treated with respect. It takes teaching them to love and respect themselves, and being over-protective doesn't help, but again there's a balance to be found.

So awesome!! And so true.

paperpudding · June 2014

LOL. I knew this would turn into some huge deal.

It is not sexist for a guy to treat me like a lady because I am ....wait for it....a lady ...

(Ok, so maybe a lady with a sailor's mouth who can burp really loudly, but whatever.)

(And by a "treat me like a lady" I mean be a little more polite to me than if I was some dude.....don't scratch your balls in front of me and I won't burp really loudly in front of you).

ETA---my husband gets the burps. Sorry, honey.

My college Gender Studies classes consistently held that treating you differently because of your gender is the very essence of sexism. Could you clarify why treating different sexes differently is not, in fact, sexism?

Yes, yes. Men and women are exactly the same, and should always be treated, and expected to perform, exactly the same. No biological differences at all, it's society man, society. No need to study actual people, instead we'll create an ideology and make the world fit it. Even when it doesn't.

You could treat people based on their needs rather than making assumptions about them based on gender.

So, he should take a survey before he opens the door for you?

You clearly live in the real world. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure she's printing survey forms.

Or he could just hold the door open for anyone of any gender coming in behind him and open the door for anyone of any gender who looks like they might need a hand - eg a person in a wheelchair or with their hands full or with a pram etc.

IME this works pretty well in the real world

Treating people based on their needs comes down to opening doors.

Yes I agree - but women don't need doors to be opened for them just because they are women.
Open doors for anyone in need of help, regardless of gender.

SunofaBeach14 · June 2014

LOL. I knew this would turn into some huge deal.

It is not sexist for a guy to treat me like a lady because I am ....wait for it....a lady ...

(Ok, so maybe a lady with a sailor's mouth who can burp really loudly, but whatever.)

(And by a "treat me like a lady" I mean be a little more polite to me than if I was some dude.....don't scratch your balls in front of me and I won't burp really loudly in front of you).

ETA---my husband gets the burps. Sorry, honey.

My college Gender Studies classes consistently held that treating you differently because of your gender is the very essence of sexism. Could you clarify why treating different sexes differently is not, in fact, sexism?

Yes, yes. Men and women are exactly the same, and should always be treated, and expected to perform, exactly the same. No biological differences at all, it's society man, society. No need to study actual people, instead we'll create an ideology and make the world fit it. Even when it doesn't.

You could treat people based on their needs rather than making assumptions about them based on gender.

So, he should take a survey before he opens the door for you?

You clearly live in the real world. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure she's printing survey forms.

Or he could just hold the door open for anyone of any gender coming in behind him and open the door for anyone of any gender who looks like they might need a hand - eg a person in a wheelchair or with their hands full or with a pram etc.

IME this works pretty well in the real world

Treating people based on their needs comes down to opening doors.

Yes I agree - but women don't need doors to be opened for them just because they are women.
Open doors for anyone in need of help, regardless of gender.

I don't pretend to speak for all men, I'd be cautious about speaking for all women

Michelle_Padgett13 · June 2014

I'm all for manners and helping the weak. But isn't it condescending to put half the human race into the "weak" category, just because of their sex?

who are these weak people of whom you speak and aren't you being a bit patronizing by helping them?

The OP used the term "weak" in the definition of chivalry. I was referring to that. Sorry, should have quoted.

nancy10272004 · June 2014

Radical Feminists and the far left are trying desperately to kill Chivalry. On of the many ways they are doing this is by pushing the very dangerous notion that women should be serving in direct combat units.
If they actually believed men and women are the exactly the same, they would not advocate for, and support, different physical fitness standards for women i law enforcement, fire departments, and the military.
The majority of men (myself included) can't pass the FBI fitness standards to become an agent. Less than 1% of women would pass if they had to pass the same standard.
Chivalry is not about believing a woman is too weak to open a door. It is about respect. A society that values women, values chivalry too. No society that values women puts them in combat.
By the way,, the hoopla over the women that supposedly passed combat school ignored the fact that they passed under a lower standard than the men. It was all politics.
Men and women are different in was meant to compliment each other. No amount of wishful thinking and brainwashing will ever change that.
Fun fact from the Law Enforcement statistics, Female police officers are over represented in officer involved shootings. SIze matters.

Your last statement seems to have a tinge of disrespect of women. I guess chivalry is dead.

justanotherloser007 · June 2014

My college Gender Studies classes consistently held that treating you differently because of your gender is the very essence of sexism. Could you clarify why treating different sexes differently is not, in fact, sexism?

Because the sexes are completely different AND equal in dignity. So it looks like you didn't really understand the actual definition of sexism. Sexism is NOT that the sexes are the same, the definition of sexism is: prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

I hope that clears it up a bit for you, I know it confuses my 6th graders as well. I think it is a common misconception. But your gender studies professor should have been clearer.

likitisplit · June 2014

LOL. I knew this would turn into some huge deal.

It is not sexist for a guy to treat me like a lady because I am ....wait for it....a lady ...

(Ok, so maybe a lady with a sailor's mouth who can burp really loudly, but whatever.)

(And by a "treat me like a lady" I mean be a little more polite to me than if I was some dude.....don't scratch your balls in front of me and I won't burp really loudly in front of you).

ETA---my husband gets the burps. Sorry, honey.

My college Gender Studies classes consistently held that treating you differently because of your gender is the very essence of sexism. Could you clarify why treating different sexes differently is not, in fact, sexism?

Yes, yes. Men and women are exactly the same, and should always be treated, and expected to perform, exactly the same. No biological differences at all, it's society man, society. No need to study actual people, instead we'll create an ideology and make the world fit it. Even when it doesn't.

You could treat people based on their needs rather than making assumptions about them based on gender.

So, he should take a survey before he opens the door for you?

You clearly live in the real world. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure she's printing survey forms.

I'm confused. Do you really find it that difficult to identify when somebody needs help with a heavy door or a tall shelf or something in the real world? Do you really need gender cues to tell you when common courtesy would be appreciated?

All I'm saying is that I'd like people to say "thank you" when I change the water cooler instead of questions about my physical ability based on my gender?

SunofaBeach14 · June 2014

LOL. I knew this would turn into some huge deal.

It is not sexist for a guy to treat me like a lady because I am ....wait for it....a lady ...

(Ok, so maybe a lady with a sailor's mouth who can burp really loudly, but whatever.)

(And by a "treat me like a lady" I mean be a little more polite to me than if I was some dude.....don't scratch your balls in front of me and I won't burp really loudly in front of you).

ETA---my husband gets the burps. Sorry, honey.

My college Gender Studies classes consistently held that treating you differently because of your gender is the very essence of sexism. Could you clarify why treating different sexes differently is not, in fact, sexism?

Yes, yes. Men and women are exactly the same, and should always be treated, and expected to perform, exactly the same. No biological differences at all, it's society man, society. No need to study actual people, instead we'll create an ideology and make the world fit it. Even when it doesn't.

You could treat people based on their needs rather than making assumptions about them based on gender.

So, he should take a survey before he opens the door for you?

You clearly live in the real world. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure she's printing survey forms.

I'm confused. Do you really find it that difficult to identify when somebody needs help with a heavy door or a tall shelf or something in the real world? Do you really need gender cues to tell you when common courtesy would be appreciated?

All I'm saying is that I'd like people to say "thank you" when I change the water cooler instead of questions about my physical ability based on my gender?

Yes, I'm generally a bit more courteous with women. My behavior also adjusts slightly if I'm in Japan, New York, or the southern US. If that upsets you that's not my problem. It's yours. As I said before, I don't speak for all men, I wouldn't expect you to be capable of speaking for all women, and I'll add that I base my behavior more on real world experience rather than Internet people who have demonstrated to me directly to have boundary issues.

RllyGudTweetr · June 2014

My college Gender Studies classes consistently held that treating you differently because of your gender is the very essence of sexism. Could you clarify why treating different sexes differently is not, in fact, sexism?

Because the sexes are completely different AND equal in dignity. So it looks like you didn't really understand the actual definition of sexism. Sexism is NOT that the sexes are the same, the definition of sexism is: prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

I hope that clears it up a bit for you, I know it confuses my 6th graders as well. I think it is a common misconception. But your gender studies professor should have been clearer.

So, you think that I had the level of comprehension - in college - that you commonly find in your 6th graders, and don't see any potential offense in that comparison? Fascinating.

paperpudding · June 2014

LOL. I knew this would turn into some huge deal.

It is not sexist for a guy to treat me like a lady because I am ....wait for it....a lady ...

(Ok, so maybe a lady with a sailor's mouth who can burp really loudly, but whatever.)

(And by a "treat me like a lady" I mean be a little more polite to me than if I was some dude.....don't scratch your balls in front of me and I won't burp really loudly in front of you).

ETA---my husband gets the burps. Sorry, honey.

My college Gender Studies classes consistently held that treating you differently because of your gender is the very essence of sexism. Could you clarify why treating different sexes differently is not, in fact, sexism?

Yes, yes. Men and women are exactly the same, and should always be treated, and expected to perform, exactly the same. No biological differences at all, it's society man, society. No need to study actual people, instead we'll create an ideology and make the world fit it. Even when it doesn't.

You could treat people based on their needs rather than making assumptions about them based on gender.

So, he should take a survey before he opens the door for you?

You clearly live in the real world. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure she's printing survey forms.

Or he could just hold the door open for anyone of any gender coming in behind him and open the door for anyone of any gender who looks like they might need a hand - eg a person in a wheelchair or with their hands full or with a pram etc.

IME this works pretty well in the real world

Treating people based on their needs comes down to opening doors.

Yes I agree - but women don't need doors to be opened for them just because they are women.
Open doors for anyone in need of help, regardless of gender.

I don't pretend to speak for all men, I'd be cautious about speaking for all women

I'm not getting how my post was purporting to be "speaking for all women" Where or how did I say such a thing?

My post was speaking to how I think - as shown by the words "I agree" - I guess I could put IMO after every sentence but that seems pedantic and silly.

Women don't need doors opened for them just because they are women ( some might like it, some might not, you might think it is a sign of respect etc - but they dont need it) - they are perfectly capable of opening doors themselves unless they have their hands full, have a pram, have a disability etc - the same as men.

I think courtesy is to hold a door open for the person coming in behind you or to help anyone of any gender who looks like they need help - a man rushing ahead of me (me as an able bodied female, with no hands full, no pram etc) to open a door because I am a woman - sorry I don't find that respectful, I find it silly.
Sure, I would say Thank you and not something rude - because I am polite. But I would think it unneccesary and silly.

Whereas if somebody helped me get something down from a high shelf I would find that helpful because I am short - the taller person could be a man or a woman -the situation is based on a height difference not a gender difference.

MhariDubh · June 2014

My college Gender Studies classes consistently held that treating you differently because of your gender is the very essence of sexism. Could you clarify why treating different sexes differently is not, in fact, sexism?

Because the sexes are completely different AND equal in dignity. So it looks like you didn't really understand the actual definition of sexism. Sexism is NOT that the sexes are the same, the definition of sexism is: prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

I hope that clears it up a bit for you, I know it confuses my 6th graders as well. I think it is a common misconception. But your gender studies professor should have been clearer.

Actually, it looks like you are unclear about what RllyGudTweetr said. My women's studies classes were the same as described. I'm clear about what sexism is - problem is angry women tend to call everything they find slightly offensive "SEXISM". As a teacher of grades 6,7, & 8 I find your comparison of what "confuses your 6th graders" to a person's college experience pretty rude.

SunofaBeach14 · June 2014

LOL. I knew this would turn into some huge deal.

It is not sexist for a guy to treat me like a lady because I am ....wait for it....a lady ...

(Ok, so maybe a lady with a sailor's mouth who can burp really loudly, but whatever.)

(And by a "treat me like a lady" I mean be a little more polite to me than if I was some dude.....don't scratch your balls in front of me and I won't burp really loudly in front of you).

ETA---my husband gets the burps. Sorry, honey.

My college Gender Studies classes consistently held that treating you differently because of your gender is the very essence of sexism. Could you clarify why treating different sexes differently is not, in fact, sexism?

Yes, yes. Men and women are exactly the same, and should always be treated, and expected to perform, exactly the same. No biological differences at all, it's society man, society. No need to study actual people, instead we'll create an ideology and make the world fit it. Even when it doesn't.

You could treat people based on their needs rather than making assumptions about them based on gender.

So, he should take a survey before he opens the door for you?

You clearly live in the real world. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure she's printing survey forms.

Or he could just hold the door open for anyone of any gender coming in behind him and open the door for anyone of any gender who looks like they might need a hand - eg a person in a wheelchair or with their hands full or with a pram etc.

IME this works pretty well in the real world

Treating people based on their needs comes down to opening doors.

Yes I agree - but women don't need doors to be opened for them just because they are women.
Open doors for anyone in need of help, regardless of gender.

I don't pretend to speak for all men, I'd be cautious about speaking for all women

I'm not getting how my post was purporting to be "speaking for all women" Where or how did I say such a thing?

My post was speaking to how I think - as shown by the words "I agree" - I guess I could put IMO after every sentence but that seems pedantic and silly.

Women don't need doors opened for them just because they are women ( some might like it, some might not, you might think it is a sign of respect etc - but they dont need it) - they are perfectly capable of opening doors themselves unless they have their hands full, have a pram, have a disability etc - the same as men.

I think courtesy is to hold a door open for the person coming in behind you or to help anyone of any gender who looks like they need help - a man rushing ahead of me (me as an able bodied female, with no hands full, no pram etc) to open a door because I am a woman - sorry I don't find that respectful, I find it silly.
Sure, I would say Thank you and not something rude - because I am polite. But I would think it unneccesary and silly.

Whereas if somebody helped me get something down from a high shelf I would find that helpful because I am short - the taller person could be a man or a woman -the situation is based on a height difference not a gender difference.

There you go again. I'm guessing the size of the woman and the weight of the door have some impact on this analysis. Some may, some prefer gentlemen, and I'll leave it to them to decide. If you dislike me because I show a certain courtesy when a lady is present, then that's okay. I'd rather that than be damned for ungentlemanly behavior in social situations. When the 3.5 billion women on this planet* get together and agree to change the social rules/guidelines then I'll adapt.

* of course if you treat a woman like a man in some cultures you'll find yourself in real trouble.

paperpudding · June 2014

Of course the size of the woman and the weight of the door would come into it - same as the size (or age) and the weight of a man could - but that is a size/weight issue, not a gender issue.
Like my example about reaching things from high shelves is a height issue, not a gender issue.

I didn't say or mean I would dislike you if you showed a "certain courtesy" - but I would find it silly and unneccesary, like I said - that is, if it was unneccesary - if I were small and elderly and frail and the door were heavy, then help might be necessary and that is fine - just as it would be fine if I were a young strong woman opening the door for an elderly frail man.
ie the 'neccesary' part is based on physical need, not gender.

Yes of course in some cultures these things would be different - but I am assuming people are talking about the modern western cultures in which we live - or at least I am talking about the modern western culture in which I live.

SunofaBeach14 · June 2014

Of course the size of the woman and the weight of the door would come into it - same as the size (or age) and the weight of a man could - but that is a size/weight issue, not a gender issue.
Like my example about reaching things from high shelves is a height issue, not a gender issue.

I didn't say or mean I would dislike you if you showed a "certain courtesy" - but I would find it silly and unneccesary , like I said - that is, if it was unneccesary - if I were small and elderly and frail and the door were heavy, then help might be necessary and that is fine - just as it would be fine if I were a young strong woman opening the door for an elderly frail man.
ie the 'neccesary' part is based on physical need, not gender.

Yes of course in some cultures these things would be different - but I am assuming people are talking about the modern western cultures in which we live - or at least I am talking about the modern western culture in which I live.

And even there, all women will not agree with you. You see as a man, I know I will interact with women of a variety of opinions on this subject and, as I stated above, I'd rather be thought silly by you then ungentlemanly by other women.

32sami · June 2014

Chivalry is my fav quality in a guy. I was brought up with manners and my parents were both big on having respect for people especially your elders. We were taught to say Mr or Mrs, never use a first name. I wish more parents taught it and more kids used it.

justanotherloser007 · June 2014

My college Gender Studies classes consistently held that treating you differently because of your gender is the very essence of sexism. Could you clarify why treating different sexes differently is not, in fact, sexism?

Because the sexes are completely different AND equal in dignity. So it looks like you didn't really understand the actual definition of sexism. Sexism is NOT that the sexes are the same, the definition of sexism is: prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

I hope that clears it up a bit for you, I know it confuses my 6th graders as well. I think it is a common misconception. But your gender studies professor should have been clearer.

Actually, it looks like you are unclear about what RllyGudTweetr said. My women's studies classes were the same as described. I'm clear about what sexism is - problem is angry women tend to call everything they find slightly offensive "SEXISM". As a teacher of grades 6,7, & 8 I find your comparison of what "confuses your 6th graders" to a person's college experience pretty rude.

Okay, let me try this again: Take out the statement " I know it confuses my 6th graders as well." I did not mean that the educational experience was the same in college as middle school, it was my mistake that I said it. I was just speaking about what I know. I am not a college professor - I teach 6th graders. I didn't mean any offense. I do think people in general should understand that the sexes are DIFFERENT and I think that is what "chivalry" in this sense is about. Did not mean to be rude, I am sorry. :flowerforyou:

paperpudding · June 2014

Of course the size of the woman and the weight of the door would come into it - same as the size (or age) and the weight of a man could - but that is a size/weight issue, not a gender issue.
Like my example about reaching things from high shelves is a height issue, not a gender issue.

I didn't say or mean I would dislike you if you showed a "certain courtesy" - but I would find it silly and unneccesary , like I said - that is, if it was unneccesary - if I were small and elderly and frail and the door were heavy, then help might be necessary and that is fine - just as it would be fine if I were a young strong woman opening the door for an elderly frail man.
ie the 'neccesary' part is based on physical need, not gender.

Yes of course in some cultures these things would be different - but I am assuming people are talking about the modern western cultures in which we live - or at least I am talking about the modern western culture in which I live.

And even there, all women will not agree with you. You see as a man, I know I will interact with women of a variety of opinions on this subject and, as I stated above, I'd rather be thought silly by you then ungentlemanly by other women.

Of course all women will not agree with me.
I would never expect all the billions of women in the world to have uniform agreement about any topic.

However that doesn't change what I think about this topic - and I don't think my opinion is by any means unique on this.

kendall916 · June 2014

Chivalry is my fav quality in a guy. I was brought up with manners and my parents were both big on having respect for people especially your elders. We were taught to say Mr or Mrs, never use a first name. I wish more parents taught it and more kids used it.

I agree 100%! If only there were more parents who brought up their kids in a loving/respectful environment. -long daydream sigh-

SunofaBeach14 · June 2014

Of course the size of the woman and the weight of the door would come into it - same as the size (or age) and the weight of a man could - but that is a size/weight issue, not a gender issue.
Like my example about reaching things from high shelves is a height issue, not a gender issue.

I didn't say or mean I would dislike you if you showed a "certain courtesy" - but I would find it silly and unneccesary , like I said - that is, if it was unneccesary - if I were small and elderly and frail and the door were heavy, then help might be necessary and that is fine - just as it would be fine if I were a young strong woman opening the door for an elderly frail man.
ie the 'neccesary' part is based on physical need, not gender.

Yes of course in some cultures these things would be different - but I am assuming people are talking about the modern western cultures in which we live - or at least I am talking about the modern western culture in which I live.

And even there, all women will not agree with you. You see as a man, I know I will interact with women of a variety of opinions on this subject and, as I stated above, I'd rather be thought silly by you then ungentlemanly by other women.

Of course all women will not agree with me.
I would never expect all the billions of women in the world to have uniform agreement about any topic.

However that doesn't change what I think about this topic - and I don't think my opinion is by any means unique on this.

See. That wasn't so hard. Now, you're talking about your personal preferences. And, that's fine, I know there are a handful of women out there that at least voice the opinion that they want to be treated by men exactly as men treat men. All I can say, is that I have my doubts and I know, for me, I don't want women treating me exacty the way they treat other women. That said, if that's your preference then go with it. I'm not trying to change anyone else's behavior, I'm just navigating the world I live in. I'll leave it at that.

paperpudding · June 2014

Of course the size of the woman and the weight of the door would come into it - same as the size (or age) and the weight of a man could - but that is a size/weight issue, not a gender issue.
Like my example about reaching things from high shelves is a height issue, not a gender issue.

I didn't say or mean I would dislike you if you showed a "certain courtesy" - but I would find it silly and unneccesary , like I said - that is, if it was unneccesary - if I were small and elderly and frail and the door were heavy, then help might be necessary and that is fine - just as it would be fine if I were a young strong woman opening the door for an elderly frail man.
ie the 'neccesary' part is based on physical need, not gender.

Yes of course in some cultures these things would be different - but I am assuming people are talking about the modern western cultures in which we live - or at least I am talking about the modern western culture in which I live.

And even there, all women will not agree with you. You see as a man, I know I will interact with women of a variety of opinions on this subject and, as I stated above, I'd rather be thought silly by you then ungentlemanly by other women.

Of course all women will not agree with me.
I would never expect all the billions of women in the world to have uniform agreement about any topic.

However that doesn't change what I think about this topic - and I don't think my opinion is by any means unique on this.

See. That wasn't so hard. Now, you're talking about your personal preferences. And, that's fine, I know there are a handful of women out there that at least voice the opinion that they want to be treated by men exactly as men treat men. All I can say, is that I have my doubts and I know, for me, I don't want women treating me exacty the way they treat other women. I'll leave it at that.

I was talking about my opinion/preferences all along. Of course it is only opinion and preferences, given this is about subjective expectations of courtesy, not objective scientific facts - not sure how you have read my posts otherwise.

and No, I did not say I think women, on the whole, or me individually, want to be treated exactly the same as men in all situations - not sure how you got that from what I wrote either.

What I did say, on the topic of opening doors, was that I think everybody should hold a door open for a person coming behind them and open doors for people of either gender who look like they may need a hand - ie they are elderly, frail, disabled, have a pram, their hands full etc. I think that is courteous and helpful.
I don't find a man rushing ahead of me, as opposed to being there first and holding the door open as you would for anybody coming in behind you, (me, an able bodied woman without a pram, hands full etc) to open a door which is not heavy and which there is nothing to suggest I cannot open myself, as courteous or helpful.

SunofaBeach14 · June 2014

Of course the size of the woman and the weight of the door would come into it - same as the size (or age) and the weight of a man could - but that is a size/weight issue, not a gender issue.
Like my example about reaching things from high shelves is a height issue, not a gender issue.

I didn't say or mean I would dislike you if you showed a "certain courtesy" - but I would find it silly and unneccesary , like I said - that is, if it was unneccesary - if I were small and elderly and frail and the door were heavy, then help might be necessary and that is fine - just as it would be fine if I were a young strong woman opening the door for an elderly frail man.
ie the 'neccesary' part is based on physical need, not gender.

Yes of course in some cultures these things would be different - but I am assuming people are talking about the modern western cultures in which we live - or at least I am talking about the modern western culture in which I live.

And even there, all women will not agree with you. You see as a man, I know I will interact with women of a variety of opinions on this subject and, as I stated above, I'd rather be thought silly by you then ungentlemanly by other women.

Of course all women will not agree with me.
I would never expect all the billions of women in the world to have uniform agreement about any topic.

However that doesn't change what I think about this topic - and I don't think my opinion is by any means unique on this.

See. That wasn't so hard. Now, you're talking about your personal preferences. And, that's fine, I know there are a handful of women out there that at least voice the opinion that they want to be treated by men exactly as men treat men. All I can say, is that I have my doubts and I know, for me, I don't want women treating me exacty the way they treat other women. I'll leave it at that.

I was talking about my opinion/preferences all along. Of course it is only opinion and preferences, given this is about subjective expectations of courtesy, not objective scientific facts - not sure how you have read my posts otherwise.

and No, I did not say I think women, on the whole, or me individually, want to be treated exactly the same as men in all situations - not sure how you got that from what I wrote either.

What I did say, on the topic of opening doors, was that I think everybody should hold a door open for a person coming behind them and open doors for people of either gender who look like they may need a hand - ie they are elderly, frail, disabled, have a pram, their hands full etc. I think that is courteous and helpful.
I don't find a man rushing ahead of me, as opposed to being there first and holding the door open as you would for anybody coming in behind you, (me, an able bodied woman without a pram, hands full etc) to open a door which is not heavy and which there is nothing to suggest I cannot open myself, as courteous or helpful.

round and round we go again. lol

lisalsd1 · June 2014

I was going to add an update to this thread. My five year old son (without being prompted) opened and held the door open for an older man at Starbucks yesterday. I don't think that my husband or I have ever TOLD the kid to open doors for people...this is something he just picked up on from seeing us (and other people do it).

I read some of the previous posts...I think the "door holding" thing has a LOT to do with where you live. Where I live (it's a more rural suburb of DC...but there is also a rather large military base here), most men open doors for women in public (or at least hold them open), most women will wait/hold the door open for the people behind them.

People still wave to passing vehicles (with strangers) on some of the back roads. My husband always asks, "do you know that person?" when I wave back. No, that's just something us country-folk do.

nancy10272004 · June 2014

Chivalry is my fav quality in a guy. I was brought up with manners and my parents were both big on having respect for people especially your elders. We were taught to say Mr or Mrs, never use a first name. I wish more parents taught it and more kids used it.

Chivalry is not the same as having manners, being polite or having respect for others. That's what half of this thread is about.

airbearlover · June 2014

Chivalry is my fav quality in a guy. I was brought up with manners and my parents were both big on having respect for people especially your elders. We were taught to say Mr or Mrs, never use a first name. I wish more parents taught it and more kids used it.

Chivalry is not the same as having manners, being polite or having respect for others. That's what half of this thread is about.

I think Chivalry is a dying art. And when mixed with rudness it stings. When I was at college I had doors shut in my face by guys alll the time. I was either too fat to deserve the door held open or they simply didn't care to realize their suroundings. Of course now that I've lost some weight the doors stay open. But it feels hollow and not like they are proforming Chivalry And on that note I will die alone or go join the Nuns. lol

justanotherloser007 · June 2014

I think Chivalry is a dying art. And when mixed with rudness it stings. When I was at college I had doors shut in my face by guys alll the time. I was either too fat to deserve the door held open or they simply didn't care to realize their suroundings. Of course now that I've lost some weight the doors stay open. But it feels hollow and not like they are proforming Chivalry And on that note I will die alone or go join the Nuns. lol

((((((hugs)))))) You were, and always are worthy of kindness and respect. Not to say that we don't always need some new awesome nuns! If I had a dollar for every time I went to a parish and heard, "What this parish needs is some nuns." I would be a billionaire.