StrongLifts 5x5
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If you're following a straight powerlifting routine and you don't want to do bicep work that's fine, not a problem but DON'T kid yourself into thinking that deadlifts alone will do it.
I'm still scouring this thread, since the curls/deadlift "debate" began to find where someone has said "deadlifts ALONE will build huge biceps." I can't find it. Who the heck is ONLY going to do deadlifts?0 -
If you're following a straight powerlifting routine and you don't want to do bicep work that's fine, not a problem but DON'T kid yourself into thinking that deadlifts alone will do it.
I'm still scouring this thread, since the curls/deadlift "debate" began to find where someone has said "deadlifts ALONE will build huge biceps." I can't find it. Who the heck is ONLY going to do deadlifts?
No-one said that deads or anything else will build “bigger” arms than curls, we said that it is a better “mass” builder. - Grglander
He states that deadlifts are a better mass builder which is about the most ridiculous thing I've ever read in my life. Will deadlifts help improve strength in your biceps? Definitely! Will it help you build mass? Not unless you include some direct bicep work or a lot of back work that involves contraction of the bicep.0 -
If you're following a straight powerlifting routine and you don't want to do bicep work that's fine, not a problem but DON'T kid yourself into thinking that deadlifts alone will do it.
I'm still scouring this thread, since the curls/deadlift "debate" began to find where someone has said "deadlifts ALONE will build huge biceps." I can't find it. Who the heck is ONLY going to do deadlifts?
No-one said that deads or anything else will build “bigger” arms than curls, we said that it is a better “mass” builder. - Grglander
He states that deadlifts are a better mass builder which is about the most ridiculous thing I've ever read in my life. Will deadlifts help improve strength in your biceps? Definitely! Will it help you build mass? Not unless you include some direct bicep work or a lot of back work that involves contraction of the bicep.
They DO contract during a deadlift it is an isometric contraction (i.e. the joint angle doesn’t change yet the muscle still has to tighten, stabalize and function)0 -
If you're following a straight powerlifting routine and you don't want to do bicep work that's fine, not a problem but DON'T kid yourself into thinking that deadlifts alone will do it.
I'm still scouring this thread, since the curls/deadlift "debate" began to find where someone has said "deadlifts ALONE will build huge biceps." I can't find it. Who the heck is ONLY going to do deadlifts?
No-one said that deads or anything else will build “bigger” arms than curls, we said that it is a better “mass” builder. - Grglander
He states that deadlifts are a better mass builder which is about the most ridiculous thing I've ever read in my life. Will deadlifts help improve strength in your biceps? Definitely! Will it help you build mass? Not unless you include some direct bicep work or a lot of back work that involves contraction of the bicep.
So you're trying to say that a kid just starting out, or a newbie, can't build significant arm size by just doing compound lifts (bent rows, deadlifts, pullups, bench, etc) and NO isolation work (bicep curls, tricep extensions, pushdowns, etc)? Keep in mind, nobody on this thread has said that "deadlifts alone will build huge biceps."0 -
Keep in mind this thread is about SL 5X5, this is not a bodybuilding thread, or a Xfit thread, it is about SL 5x5. So while some of the comments here might be applicable to another style or theology of lifting it’s not here. Carry on.0
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So you're trying to say that a kid just starting out, or a newbie, can't build significant arm size by just doing compound lifts (bent rows, deadlifts, pullups, bench, etc) and NO isolation work (bicep curls, tricep extensions, pushdowns, etc)? Keep in mind, nobody on this thread has said that "deadlifts alone will build huge biceps."
He stated mass which indicates size, so yeah that was stated. Define significant, perhaps we have different views on significant.
True story...
So, my 15-year old is getting ready for varsity football. In December he started lifting with me and I was current utilizing a method that includes neural ramping and a wave loading rep schema. Each week you added sets instead of weight for 3 weeks and then after 3 weeks you started at the rep scheme of week 1 but added 5 to 10lbs depending on your progress.
- Upper body day 1 with his stats as of the first week in which we tested his strength.
a1. Standing Overhead Press - 60lb 3RM
b1. Floor Bench Press - 80lb 3RM
c1. Flat Bench Press - 90lb 3RM
d1. Sumo Deadlift (easier on the lower back) - 110 3RM
- Upper Body day 2
*same upper body exercises as
d1. Back Squat - 120 3RM
- Lower body day 1
a1. Back Squat
b1. Sumo Deadlift
c1. Standing Overhead Pres
- Lower body day 2
*same as above
c1. Flat Bench Press
Day 5 was an active rest day where we did activation training, aka dynamic lifting, aka neural charge training.
Day 6 was a Lats / Biceps day - I will admit here that at first we had little progress on biceps and it was because I was applying the same method of the upper / lower body rep / weight schema to biceps, basically HEAVY and it did not work.
Day 7 Rest or do a Day 5 routine if we felt like it.
In March, 3 months, I retested his 3RM
- Bench Press - 130lbs
- OHP - 100lbs
- Back Squat - 180lbs
- Deadlift - 200lbs (not sure why so much stronger here, he loves the exercise and I think just puts more effort into it)
I don't have him Power Clean from the floor at the gym but he does it at school for football, 180lb Power Clean at 15 years old and only 3 months of training. Today he actually started a new phase and DL'd 230lbs 3 times for his new 3RM, I'm not even sure what his 1RM is, probably 240/245.
We didn't do any of this start with the bar BS. We found what his TRUE 3RM (the method works off the 3RM) and adjusted down to be appropriate for this methodology. During that short time his strenght went ape-**** but his bicep mass did not change much. I noticed some noticeable mass improvement in his trap's, thighs, and pecs but nothing much going on in his arms. I have since better educated myself on arm training and both of us have seen noticeable improvement in our Bicep strength, definition, and overall size.
So... to make a long story short. No, I do not believe that even a noobie is going to build significant BICEP MASS by doing compound movements alone. I do believe that anybody CAN build pectoral, trap, thigh, hamstring MASS and strength by doing compound movements. Assuming the diet is in order of course. I'm a believer in lifting heavy for OHP, BP, DL, Squats and I believe that you gain better performance, strength, and mass from lifting heavy on those lifts. However, Biceps is not one of those muscle groups that you will build MASS with by doing deadlifts alone. I've learned this by reading, failing at employing a method, reading and educating myself more, and now succeeding in improving my biceps.
Just focusing on arms... Conversely, I do believe that the compound movements can help you to build tricep mass because they are so involved in OHP and BP. Triceps are what, 2/3's of the muscle mass in your arm, so yes your arms will look bigger from improving the tri's. Prior to using some of the current methods I currently use, I did follow Wendler's 5/3/1 and 5x5 as written in Poliquin's "Modern Trends in Strength Training." I did quite a bit of direct Tricep work. Now that I follow methods with a lot of emphasis on pressing, I've learned that my Triceps are actually overactive in my presses. It's been recommended to me by a strength trainer to drop direct tricep work (extensions and stuff) and add some accessory chest lifts in to help improve my strength imbalance.
Anyway... long story short0 -
Dude, Matt Kroczaleski is a friggin' BEAST!!! Ever see the video of him doing one-arm DB rows with 200lbs on the DB? He did a set of 20 reps I believe, so much for not doing volume, eh? I believe he trains at EFS to right? Even the EFS guys, professional powerlifters, do some isolation work. Jim Wendler's 5/3/1 manual specifically advocates doing assistance work. I haven't read it in a few months but I believe he advocated 5 sets of 10 reps or something like that.
And to quote Wendler on assistance work:
“The biggest problem I’ve seen with this is people doing way too much. They do too many sets, or too many exercises. These lifts should compliment the training, not detract from it. People choose exercises for every body part, train them excessively, then wonder why they’re overtrained and not making any progress. When you’re choosing your assistance exercises, do yourself a favor and justify why you’re doing them. Don’t bull**** yourself. You must have a very strong reason for doing an exercise. If you don’t, scrap it and move on. Sometimes, instead of what you do in the weight room, it’s what you don’t do that will lead to success.”
On his program using no assistance work:
“I do this fairly often, and I’m sure it seems odd. I recently went to a commercial gym, warmed up, did my working sets and set a huge PR. I sat there for a little while, then decided to leave. As I was walking out, I looked around at the other people training, and I wondered whether anyone else had set a personal record that day. For my part, I know I walked out of there better than I did when I walked in.”
In all cases the primary focus is the core lift and he recommends a max of two to three assistance exercises (none of which out of his entire e-book are bicep curls by the way) that compliment the core lift. They are called assistance exercise because they're less effective and less important than the core lifts.
And let’s not forget the fact that 5/3/1 is an intermediate to advanced program, and advanced trainees need to train differently using more assistance work, periodization, longer progression schedules, etc… If you are not squatting and deadlifting above your bodyweight at an absolute minimum (ideally 1.5 to 2x BW, because you would be stupid to settle for monthly increases when you could still make daily or weekly increases), then you should not be doing 5/3/1 and if you do, then it proves you have no clue about training programming and progression.
Again, you're only focusing on the powerlifting aspect. Not everybody is into powerlifting. I have the book and he doesn't really address biceps and that's fine because that's not the goal of his book. He does say not to overdo Assistance work but he definitely doesn't say not to do it and he definitely does not indicate go heavy on the assistance work.
The point of our statement was addressing biceps and that deadlifts alone will not stimulate appreciable bicep growth. If you're following a straight powerlifting routine and you don't want to do bicep work that's fine, not a problem but DON'T kid yourself into thinking that deadlifts alone will do it. Now, Jim does advocate pull-ups / chin-ups and if you combine that with various back exercises that involves biceps then you might gain some bicep mass. If you want biceps in addition to the powerlifting then you need to take one of the days you're not doing 5/3/1 and do biceps. Don't need to do a ton, but some.
I did 5/3/1 for three months and it's a fine program but I found that it's not challenging enough for me. Based on this discussion I doubt you could match my work capacity in the gym.
You say I don't have a clue... All I see you do is regurgitate crap that's on the front page of the Stronglifts. I've spent 10 years reading books by Charles Poliquin, Eric Cressy, Chad Waterbury, Jim Wendler, Dave Tate, Louie Simmons, Christian Thibideau. I promise you I have a clue and I think it's you that are tunnel-visioned yourself into one aspect of training and refuse to look past what you know and learn more.
I don’t even do StrongLifts anymore ( I do Madcow), I am beyond all that SL can offer me. Do I advocate it for beginners, yes, the same way I advocate Starting Strength for beginners and the same way I advocate Madcow and Texas Method for intermediates and Pendlay/Starr 5x5, SL Advanced and 5/3/1 for advanced lifters, they are all great programs that produce superior strength than any bodybuilding program ever could. I take content from the SL website at times because it is well thought out and most of the content is to the point, but trust me I know plenty. I have read the works of Ripptoe, Pendlay, Wendler, Starr, Tate, Arnold etc… as well the texts for the CSCS certification (which FYI, is not powerlifting focused at all).
I am also not tunnel-visioned into powerlifting; I am not a powerlifter, nor do I have a desire to be one. I am tunnel-visioned into strength and conditioning (i.e. functional training) and compound lifts are a more functional form of training for the entire body than isolation exercises are, because in reality your body works as a single functioning unit, not separate parts.
I also did not say you had no clue; that is unless you fall into the category of attempting 5/3/1 with substandard lifts. However, if you only did 5/3/1 for three months then you missed the point of the program, and I will now state directly that you have a lack of understanding in strength programming, sorry.
I do not care if “I can match your work capacity in the gym”; WTH that means. Maybe you are stronger than me, congratulations <clapping>. But I am not sure what that has to do with anything other than fluffing you ego.
Whatever, I concede, you win. You can't make people smarter. You can expose them to information, but your responsibility stops there.0 -
Good point. There is far too much nonsense going on this thread. Enjoy spewing more...0
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So you're trying to say that a kid just starting out, or a newbie, can't build significant arm size by just doing compound lifts (bent rows, deadlifts, pullups, bench, etc) and NO isolation work (bicep curls, tricep extensions, pushdowns, etc)? Keep in mind, nobody on this thread has said that "deadlifts alone will build huge biceps."
He stated mass which indicates size, so yeah that was stated. Define significant, perhaps we have different views on significant.
Holy F’ing crap I feel like I am talking to my 2 year old; MASS AND SIZE ARE NOT THE SAME THING, and mass does not “indicate” size either. Size refers to the visible appearance of the muscle while mass refers to the density/weight of the muscle. A simple understanding of hypertrophy would eliminate this confusion.
Myofibrillar hypertrophy results in the building of new muscle fibers creating denser and somewhat larger muscles. Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy results in the buildup of sarcoplasmic fluid in the muscle cells (the cytoplasm of muscle cells) and creates larger but less dense muscle. While these two forms of hypertrophy do not occur independent of one another they also do not often occur equally with one another, which means that a lifter will typically have one primary result over another (i.e. mass/density OR size) however they will overlap slightly.0 -
So you're trying to say that a kid just starting out, or a newbie, can't build significant arm size by just doing compound lifts (bent rows, deadlifts, pullups, bench, etc) and NO isolation work (bicep curls, tricep extensions, pushdowns, etc)? Keep in mind, nobody on this thread has said that "deadlifts alone will build huge biceps."
He stated mass which indicates size, so yeah that was stated. Define significant, perhaps we have different views on significant.
Holy F’ing crap I feel like I am talking to my 2 year old; MASS AND SIZE ARE NOT THE SAME THING, and mass does not “indicate” size either. Size refers to the visible appearance of the muscle while mass refers to the density/weight of the muscle. A simple understanding of hypertrophy would eliminate this confusion.
Myofibrillar hypertrophy results in the building of new muscle fibers creating denser and somewhat larger muscles. Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy results in the buildup of sarcoplasmic fluid in the muscle cells (the cytoplasm of muscle cells) and creates larger but less dense muscle. While these two forms of hypertrophy do not occur independent of one another they also do not often occur equally with one another, which means that a lifter will typically have one primary result over another (i.e. mass/density OR size) however they will overlap slightly.
Greg you obviously know the science behind mass vs size, but i'm willing to bet if you went into the average gym and asked any number of guys working out if mass and size are the same thing they would say yes. this is where the confusion started in the thread.0 -
If you're following a straight powerlifting routine and you don't want to do bicep work that's fine, not a problem but DON'T kid yourself into thinking that deadlifts alone will do it.
I'm still scouring this thread, since the curls/deadlift "debate" began to find where someone has said "deadlifts ALONE will build huge biceps." I can't find it. Who the heck is ONLY going to do deadlifts?
No-one said that deads or anything else will build “bigger” arms than curls, we said that it is a better “mass” builder. - Grglander
He states that deadlifts are a better mass builder which is about the most ridiculous thing I've ever read in my life. Will deadlifts help improve strength in your biceps? Definitely! Will it help you build mass? Not unless you include some direct bicep work or a lot of back work that involves contraction of the bicep.
So you're trying to say that a kid just starting out, or a newbie, can't build significant arm size by just doing compound lifts (bent rows, deadlifts, pullups, bench, etc) and NO isolation work (bicep curls, tricep extensions, pushdowns, etc)? Keep in mind, nobody on this thread has said that "deadlifts alone will build huge biceps."
you're the one throwing out 'curls are for girls'
tell us what bicep work you do then to build 'huge biceps'0 -
To bring this thread back to a more positive tone...
I will be starting the StrongLifts 5x5 program tomorrow. I intend to start at the recommended weight (bar only) since I am new to most of the compound lifts that make up the SL 5x5 program so I'm essentially a beginner. I will also start with just the bar on the rows too as I don't think I can do 65 lbs for 5 reps. I will follow a Tuesday/Thursday/Saturday lifting routine and also run for about 30-40 minutes after lifting (depending on the time). In addition to that I will also run an additional day of the week for about an hour, most likely Sundays. This will give me 3 days of weight training while still maintaining a 15-20 mile/week running base. My goal with this program is to improve my overall strength. I have been lifting weights on and off for years, but my focus has mostly been geared towards weight loss and fitness so I'm not nearly as strong as I'd like to be. After reading up on the SL 5x5 program, it seemed like a good option for me to build strength. I will keep you guys updated on my progress.0 -
To bring this thread back to a more positive tone...
I will be starting the StrongLifts 5x5 program tomorrow. I intend to start at the recommended weight (bar only) since I am new to most of the compound lifts that make up the SL 5x5 program so I'm essentially a beginner. I will also start with just the bar on the rows too as I don't think I can do 65 lbs for 5 reps. I will follow a Tuesday/Thursday/Saturday lifting routine and also run for about 30-40 minutes after lifting (depending on the time). In addition to that I will also run an additional day of the week for about an hour, most likely Sundays. This will give me 3 days of weight training while still maintaining a 15-20 mile/week running base. My goal with this program is to improve my overall strength. I have been lifting weights on and off for years, but my focus has mostly been geared towards weight loss and fitness so I'm not nearly as strong as I'd like to be. After reading up on the SL 5x5 program, it seemed like a good option for me to build strength. I will keep you guys updated on my progress.
To do rows without a starting weight, use plates to lift the bar up to where it normally would be. Good luck.0 -
Merely a bunch of attention-worshiping topic-leaving ego-satisfying time-wasting idiots (mostly).
Grow up.
I had to get this off my chest since almost everyone on this messed up place wasted my time. So yeah, don't cry just yet.
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If you're following a straight powerlifting routine and you don't want to do bicep work that's fine, not a problem but DON'T kid yourself into thinking that deadlifts alone will do it.
I'm still scouring this thread, since the curls/deadlift "debate" began to find where someone has said "deadlifts ALONE will build huge biceps." I can't find it. Who the heck is ONLY going to do deadlifts?
No-one said that deads or anything else will build “bigger” arms than curls, we said that it is a better “mass” builder. - Grglander
He states that deadlifts are a better mass builder which is about the most ridiculous thing I've ever read in my life. Will deadlifts help improve strength in your biceps? Definitely! Will it help you build mass? Not unless you include some direct bicep work or a lot of back work that involves contraction of the bicep.
So you're trying to say that a kid just starting out, or a newbie, can't build significant arm size by just doing compound lifts (bent rows, deadlifts, pullups, bench, etc) and NO isolation work (bicep curls, tricep extensions, pushdowns, etc)? Keep in mind, nobody on this thread has said that "deadlifts alone will build huge biceps."
you're the one throwing out 'curls are for girls'
tell us what bicep work you do then to build 'huge biceps'
I would recommend weighted chin-ups over bicep culrs any day of the week. You will get direct bicep work (flexing contraction) as well as the added back work. Since many on this topic are concerned with their appearance over functional strength, think of it this way; you will look a lot cooler doing chin-ups with 90lbs chained to a belt then doing bicep curls and it is a more functional exercise.
And for triceps instead of skull crushers, extensions and kick-backs, do weighted dips. Do them vertical for more tricep focus and lean forward for more pec activation (although both engage to varying degrees regardless.)… and the looking cooler premise still applies. Forward leaning dips are also a better and safer exercise then decline bench.
Pull/Chin-ups and dips are without a doubt the two most beneficial assistance exercises that one can do. When you weight them, because they are compound movements, the 5x5/3x5 approach and progressive loading can be used where as this is next to impossible on singe muscle/joint movements. People tend to be attracted to the isolation exercises over these for two primary reasons; bro-science/magazines and because chins and dips are harder and people suck at them.0 -
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Merely a bunch of attention-worshiping topic-leaving ego-satisfying time-wasting idiots (mostly).
Grow up.
I had to get this off my chest since almost everyone on this messed up place wasted my time. So yeah, don't cry just yet.
This from a 23 yr pencil neck that hasn’t filled out his profile and wants to gain 50lb. LOL0 -
Merely a bunch of attention-worshiping topic-leaving ego-satisfying time-wasting idiots (mostly).
Grow up.
I had to get this off my chest since almost everyone on this messed up place wasted my time. So yeah, don't cry just yet.
This from a 23 yr pencil neck that hasn’t filled out his profile and wants to gain 50lb. LOL
I'll be honest, I didn't respond because a) I'm not going to get drawn into these urinating matches anymore and b) he has issues forming complete, coherent sentences.0 -
Merely a bunch of attention-worshiping topic-leaving ego-satisfying time-wasting idiots (mostly).
Grow up.
I had to get this off my chest since almost everyone on this messed up place wasted my time. So yeah, don't cry just yet.
This from a 23 yr pencil neck that hasn’t filled out his profile and wants to gain 50lb. LOL
I'll be honest, I didn't respond because a) I'm not going to get drawn into these urinating matches anymore and b) he has issues forming complete, coherent sentences.
Don't feed the trolls people. It is what they want.0
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