How much protein do you really need?

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  • liftingbro
    liftingbro Posts: 2,029 Member
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    WhyDidIComeToThisThread.gif

    If I comment on the misguidedbutwellmeant comments (you translate that) by the anti-protein folks here I will be banned.
  • MaitreyeeMAYHEM
    MaitreyeeMAYHEM Posts: 559 Member
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    what if u don't eat meat? I need protein too! I am tired of eating nuts all day long. lol
  • eviltwinkie
    eviltwinkie Posts: 153
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    Interesting... but I find the whole meat/protein thing comes down to what works best for an individual.

    That said, it can be akin to touching on religion or politics. People can feel really strongly about it and be intractible in their viewpoints, for deeply felt reasons.

    Best to leave it at 'eat the amount that seems best for you, based on expert opinion and your own careful observations, don't fall under this minimum, and it's best to stick to lean sources of protein.'

    And heck, why not just focus on the portion size and the sheer amount of fat that's likely in that cheeseburger and milkshake? My cheeseburgers at home are pretty darn healthy. You can make 96/4 burger taste pretty flavorful, you just have to be more careful with it. Wouldn't it be awesome if we could get that lean of hamburger as a choice at a burger place? And a smaller, whole grain bun?

    I know, I know, dream on... at least I can make it at home.
  • ATT949
    ATT949 Posts: 1,245 Member
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    I can't believe I didn't see this statement from the article:
    Eating large amounts of red and processed meats is associated with higher rates of heart disease and cancer, and most nutritionists such as Marion Nestle recommend cutting back on meat, especially on fatty cuts.

    So untrue. Dietary cholesterol does not have anything to do with blood serum cholesterol.

    Food is not even one of the proven causes of CVD and/or CHD.

    1. Being morbidly obese and lack of exercise
    2. Smoking
    3. Diabetes
    4. Genetics

    Just to name a few.

    Joe:

    You've hit the key point in that article and, the way I'd put it, is that the article is true but misleading.

    "associated with" means whatever the author of the article wants it to mean.

    To me, there's very little validity in the article, from top to bottom and the "associated with" is just an "escape clause" that sounds like something but, since there's no definition, it has no meaning.

    Unfortunately, most of the articles that I've read on the web are similarly lacking in specificity but, because so many people don't exercise critical thinking skills, those articles are believed.
  • joejccva71
    joejccva71 Posts: 2,985 Member
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    I'm not anti-vegan. Honestly I could care less, but when people start bringing starving children or animal cruelty into the discussion, it gets a bit ridiculous.

    It is very hard for a bodybuilder that is serious about bulking and getting their protein intake to eat protein from veggies only. It's almost impossible. They have to consume alot of shakes to get their intake.

    Vegetables do not exaclty have enormous amounts of protein. Some bodybuilders that bulk 5-6 months out of the year ingest in upwards of 300-350g of protein per day. Thats ALOT of vegetables.
  • liftingbro
    liftingbro Posts: 2,029 Member
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    Interesting... but I find the whole meat/protein thing comes down to what works best for an individual.

    That said, it can be akin to touching on religion or politics. People can feel really strongly about it and be intractible in their viewpoints, for deeply felt reasons.

    Best to leave it at 'eat the amount that seems best for you, based on expert opinion and your own careful observations, don't fall under this minimum, and it's best to stick to lean sources of protein.'

    And heck, why not just focus on the portion size and the sheer amount of fat that's likely in that cheeseburger and milkshake? My cheeseburgers at home are pretty darn healthy. You can make 96/4 burger taste pretty flavorful, you just have to be more careful with it. Wouldn't it be awesome if we could get that lean of hamburger as a choice at a burger place? And a smaller, whole grain bun?

    I know, I know, dream on... at least I can make it at home.

    Part of the problem is people don't consider goals.

    Can you live on 40g of protein? Probably, but are you really going to be healthy? Hard to say, no valid research has been done on what is the minimum levels are.

    However, the the vast majority of research does show that as much as 1g of protein per pound of bodyweight is OPTIMAL for building muscle.

    Also, Protein has a higher TEF than other macros and thus increases metabolism by as much as 30% over Carbs and Fats.

    As far as creating all that extra polution to supply all of the meat. What do you think the levels chemicals used would be if they instead produced the same amount of nutrients in veggies and fruits that would feed the same number of people? I don't think there would be much of an improvement because the reality is most people could give a crap if they eat organic and I question how many large"organic" produce suppliers are actually organic.
  • bcattoes
    bcattoes Posts: 17,299 Member
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    I'm not anti-vegan. Honestly I could care less, but when people start bringing starving children or animal cruelty into the discussion, it gets a bit ridiculous.

    It is very hard for a bodybuilder that is serious about bulking and getting their protein intake to eat protein from veggies only. It's almost impossible. They have to consume alot of shakes to get their intake.

    Vegetables do not exaclty have enormous amounts of protein. Some bodybuilders that bulk 5-6 months out of the year ingest in upwards of 300-350g of protein per day. Thats ALOT of vegetables.

    But do bodybuilders really "need" that much protein??

    http://www.dietitian.com/protein.html
  • joejccva71
    joejccva71 Posts: 2,985 Member
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    I'm not anti-vegan. Honestly I could care less, but when people start bringing starving children or animal cruelty into the discussion, it gets a bit ridiculous.

    It is very hard for a bodybuilder that is serious about bulking and getting their protein intake to eat protein from veggies only. It's almost impossible. They have to consume alot of shakes to get their intake.

    Vegetables do not exaclty have enormous amounts of protein. Some bodybuilders that bulk 5-6 months out of the year ingest in upwards of 300-350g of protein per day. Thats ALOT of vegetables.

    But do bodybuilders really "need" that much protein??

    http://www.dietitian.com/protein.html

    Bcat are you really going to go there with me and start quoting links? *think about that for a minute* =)

    Actually I dont even need to quote links. I'll just mention names.

    Alan Aragon
    Lyle McDonald
    Martin Berkhan

    Start reading.
  • liftingbro
    liftingbro Posts: 2,029 Member
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    I'm not anti-vegan. Honestly I could care less, but when people start bringing starving children or animal cruelty into the discussion, it gets a bit ridiculous.

    It is very hard for a bodybuilder that is serious about bulking and getting their protein intake to eat protein from veggies only. It's almost impossible. They have to consume alot of shakes to get their intake.

    Vegetables do not exaclty have enormous amounts of protein. Some bodybuilders that bulk 5-6 months out of the year ingest in upwards of 300-350g of protein per day. Thats ALOT of vegetables.

    But do bodybuilders really "need" that much protein??

    http://www.dietitian.com/protein.html

    Joe, don't bother responding to her. I have vowed to no longer even respond to her anymore. Seriously, you can speak all of the scientific facts you want and it will not penetrate this one's mind one bit.
  • bcattoes
    bcattoes Posts: 17,299 Member
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    I'm not anti-vegan. Honestly I could care less, but when people start bringing starving children or animal cruelty into the discussion, it gets a bit ridiculous.

    It is very hard for a bodybuilder that is serious about bulking and getting their protein intake to eat protein from veggies only. It's almost impossible. They have to consume alot of shakes to get their intake.

    Vegetables do not exaclty have enormous amounts of protein. Some bodybuilders that bulk 5-6 months out of the year ingest in upwards of 300-350g of protein per day. Thats ALOT of vegetables.

    But do bodybuilders really "need" that much protein??

    http://www.dietitian.com/protein.html

    Bcat are you really going to go there with me and start quoting links? *think about that for a minute* =)

    Sure, if you want. I don't care how much protein people eat, but I've never seen any conclusive or even pervasive medical evidence that mass protein is needed for bodybuilding. (just for the record I do not see bodybuilding sites as medical)
  • Teemo
    Teemo Posts: 338
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    But do bodybuilders really "need" that much protein??

    http://www.dietitian.com/protein.html

    You should read it. You might find it good for a laugh as the dietician completely misrepresents the questions asked of her in order to make her point.
  • songbyrdsweet
    songbyrdsweet Posts: 5,691 Member
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    I'm not anti-vegan. Honestly I could care less, but when people start bringing starving children or animal cruelty into the discussion, it gets a bit ridiculous.

    It is very hard for a bodybuilder that is serious about bulking and getting their protein intake to eat protein from veggies only. It's almost impossible. They have to consume alot of shakes to get their intake.

    Vegetables do not exaclty have enormous amounts of protein. Some bodybuilders that bulk 5-6 months out of the year ingest in upwards of 300-350g of protein per day. Thats ALOT of vegetables.

    But do bodybuilders really "need" that much protein??

    http://www.dietitian.com/protein.html

    Bcat are you really going to go there with me and start quoting links? *think about that for a minute* =)

    Actually I dont even need to quote links. I'll just mention names.

    Alan Aragon
    Lyle McDonald
    Martin Berkhan

    Start reading.

    While I respect a lot of your information, I disagree with the idea that a BBer would need 300-350g of protein per day for muscle growth. The reason they eat so much protein is to fill caloric needs while avoiding fat and carbohydrates. I'm sure you know that glucogenic amino acid backbones are easily utilized in gluconeogenesis when carbohydrate levels are too low, as is the case with most BBers who purposely limit carbohydrate intake. The reason we don't really know how much protein people need is that it is near impossible to measure absorption in humans because at this point we'd need to implant and ostomy, and no one really wants to do that in the name of science. The highest recorded level of protein that correlated at all with muscle repair was in Russian athletes back in the 80's, and it was 2.7g/kg.

    Arguing about protein requirements is fairly silly since there's actually no way to measure absorption (and therefor, utilization).
  • liftingbro
    liftingbro Posts: 2,029 Member
    Options
    I'm not anti-vegan. Honestly I could care less, but when people start bringing starving children or animal cruelty into the discussion, it gets a bit ridiculous.

    It is very hard for a bodybuilder that is serious about bulking and getting their protein intake to eat protein from veggies only. It's almost impossible. They have to consume alot of shakes to get their intake.

    Vegetables do not exaclty have enormous amounts of protein. Some bodybuilders that bulk 5-6 months out of the year ingest in upwards of 300-350g of protein per day. Thats ALOT of vegetables.

    But do bodybuilders really "need" that much protein??

    http://www.dietitian.com/protein.html

    Bcat are you really going to go there with me and start quoting links? *think about that for a minute* =)

    Actually I dont even need to quote links. I'll just mention names.

    Alan Aragon
    Lyle McDonald
    Martin Berkhan

    Start reading.

    While I respect a lot of your information, I disagree with the idea that a BBer would need 300-350g of protein per day for muscle growth. The reason they eat so much protein is to fill caloric needs while avoiding fat and carbohydrates. I'm sure you know that glucogenic amino acid backbones are easily utilized in gluconeogenesis when carbohydrate levels are too low, as is the case with most BBers who purposely limit carbohydrate intake. The reason we don't really know how much protein people need is that it is near impossible to measure absorption in humans because at this point we'd need to implant and ostomy, and no one really wants to do that in the name of science. The highest recorded level of protein that correlated at all with muscle repair was in Russian athletes back in the 80's, and it was 2.7g/kg.

    Arguing about protein requirements is fairly silly since there's actually no way to measure absorption (and therefor, utilization).

    Right, but some BBers are so huge they need that 350-400g. Also, years and years of BBers having success while increasing protein intake can't be discounted. How much is needed is very much debatable but the best science we have on the subject says aroung 0.8-1g per pound or 2.7g/kg. That's better, IMO, that just saying eff protein and get 40g per day. The TEF of protein makes it better if you are losing weight and it's difficult to get too much protein. So, IMO, even if you are getting more than is needed it's better than not getting enough.
  • joejccva71
    joejccva71 Posts: 2,985 Member
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    Do you agree that bodybuilders should consume 1-1.5g of protein per lb of bodyweight if they are very lean or 1-1.5g of protein per lb of LBM if they have a high bf%?

    Yes or No.

    Also, you do understand that if you don't get your minimum required protein amount that there WILL in fact be muscle breakdown...yes?

    I would love to see a scientist, a dietician, and a nutritionist all stand in the same room with a Strongman athlete whom weighs over 300 lbs in which alot is muscle and tell him he should only be eating 100g of protein per day.

    I would LOVE to video tape that conversation.
  • songbyrdsweet
    songbyrdsweet Posts: 5,691 Member
    Options
    I'm not anti-vegan. Honestly I could care less, but when people start bringing starving children or animal cruelty into the discussion, it gets a bit ridiculous.

    It is very hard for a bodybuilder that is serious about bulking and getting their protein intake to eat protein from veggies only. It's almost impossible. They have to consume alot of shakes to get their intake.

    Vegetables do not exaclty have enormous amounts of protein. Some bodybuilders that bulk 5-6 months out of the year ingest in upwards of 300-350g of protein per day. Thats ALOT of vegetables.

    But do bodybuilders really "need" that much protein??

    http://www.dietitian.com/protein.html

    Bcat are you really going to go there with me and start quoting links? *think about that for a minute* =)

    Actually I dont even need to quote links. I'll just mention names.

    Alan Aragon
    Lyle McDonald
    Martin Berkhan

    Start reading.

    While I respect a lot of your information, I disagree with the idea that a BBer would need 300-350g of protein per day for muscle growth. The reason they eat so much protein is to fill caloric needs while avoiding fat and carbohydrates. I'm sure you know that glucogenic amino acid backbones are easily utilized in gluconeogenesis when carbohydrate levels are too low, as is the case with most BBers who purposely limit carbohydrate intake. The reason we don't really know how much protein people need is that it is near impossible to measure absorption in humans because at this point we'd need to implant and ostomy, and no one really wants to do that in the name of science. The highest recorded level of protein that correlated at all with muscle repair was in Russian athletes back in the 80's, and it was 2.7g/kg.

    Arguing about protein requirements is fairly silly since there's actually no way to measure absorption (and therefor, utilization).

    Right, but some BBers are so huge they need that 350-400g. Also, years and years of BBers having success while increasing protein intake can't be discounted. How much is needed is very much debatable but the best science we have on the subject says aroung 0.8-1g per pound or 2.7g/kg. That's better, IMO, that just saying eff protein and get 40g per day. The TEF of protein makes it better if you are losing weight and it's difficult to get too much protein. So, IMO, even if you are getting more than is needed it's better than not getting enough.

    Actually it's not as simple as .8-1g/lb. There are ranges for different athletes, life stages, etc. TEF of protein is the same as anything....10-15% total calories consumed. Not sure how that makes a difference for weight loss.
  • bcattoes
    bcattoes Posts: 17,299 Member
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    I'm not anti-vegan. Honestly I could care less, but when people start bringing starving children or animal cruelty into the discussion, it gets a bit ridiculous.

    It is very hard for a bodybuilder that is serious about bulking and getting their protein intake to eat protein from veggies only. It's almost impossible. They have to consume alot of shakes to get their intake.

    Vegetables do not exaclty have enormous amounts of protein. Some bodybuilders that bulk 5-6 months out of the year ingest in upwards of 300-350g of protein per day. Thats ALOT of vegetables.

    But do bodybuilders really "need" that much protein??

    http://www.dietitian.com/protein.html

    Bcat are you really going to go there with me and start quoting links? *think about that for a minute* =)

    Actually I dont even need to quote links. I'll just mention names.

    Alan Aragon
    Lyle McDonald
    Martin Berkhan

    Start reading.

    I'll try to remember those names, but honestly since I'm always over on protein anyway I don't know that I'll read them. I just always see people on this site saying how body builders "need" mass protein but I've never seen any medical organization recommend it. I have to wonder if it isn't all pushed by the protein supplement companies. When you follow links to those body building sites there are always ads galore for protein supplements.
  • 123456654321
    123456654321 Posts: 1,311 Member
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    Curious as to why people seem to be so concerned about what bodybuilders are doing? It seems like these conversations always end up in an argument about what bodybuilders need/don't need.
  • joejccva71
    joejccva71 Posts: 2,985 Member
    Options
    I'm not anti-vegan. Honestly I could care less, but when people start bringing starving children or animal cruelty into the discussion, it gets a bit ridiculous.

    It is very hard for a bodybuilder that is serious about bulking and getting their protein intake to eat protein from veggies only. It's almost impossible. They have to consume alot of shakes to get their intake.

    Vegetables do not exaclty have enormous amounts of protein. Some bodybuilders that bulk 5-6 months out of the year ingest in upwards of 300-350g of protein per day. Thats ALOT of vegetables.

    But do bodybuilders really "need" that much protein??

    http://www.dietitian.com/protein.html

    Bcat are you really going to go there with me and start quoting links? *think about that for a minute* =)

    Actually I dont even need to quote links. I'll just mention names.

    Alan Aragon
    Lyle McDonald
    Martin Berkhan

    Start reading.

    While I respect a lot of your information, I disagree with the idea that a BBer would need 300-350g of protein per day for muscle growth. The reason they eat so much protein is to fill caloric needs while avoiding fat and carbohydrates. I'm sure you know that glucogenic amino acid backbones are easily utilized in gluconeogenesis when carbohydrate levels are too low, as is the case with most BBers who purposely limit carbohydrate intake. The reason we don't really know how much protein people need is that it is near impossible to measure absorption in humans because at this point we'd need to implant and ostomy, and no one really wants to do that in the name of science. The highest recorded level of protein that correlated at all with muscle repair was in Russian athletes back in the 80's, and it was 2.7g/kg.

    Arguing about protein requirements is fairly silly since there's actually no way to measure absorption (and therefor, utilization).

    Right, but some BBers are so huge they need that 350-400g. Also, years and years of BBers having success while increasing protein intake can't be discounted. How much is needed is very much debatable but the best science we have on the subject says aroung 0.8-1g per pound or 2.7g/kg. That's better, IMO, that just saying eff protein and get 40g per day. The TEF of protein makes it better if you are losing weight and it's difficult to get too much protein. So, IMO, even if you are getting more than is needed it's better than not getting enough.

    Actually it's not as simple as .8-1g/lb. There are ranges for different athletes, life stages, etc. TEF of protein is the same as anything....10-15% total calories consumed. Not sure how that makes a difference for weight loss.

    There is no difference for athletes or "life stages". lol. It depends on your LBM. Do you even have a clue what you are talking about?
  • liftingbro
    liftingbro Posts: 2,029 Member
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    I'm not anti-vegan. Honestly I could care less, but when people start bringing starving children or animal cruelty into the discussion, it gets a bit ridiculous.

    It is very hard for a bodybuilder that is serious about bulking and getting their protein intake to eat protein from veggies only. It's almost impossible. They have to consume alot of shakes to get their intake.

    Vegetables do not exaclty have enormous amounts of protein. Some bodybuilders that bulk 5-6 months out of the year ingest in upwards of 300-350g of protein per day. Thats ALOT of vegetables.

    But do bodybuilders really "need" that much protein??

    http://www.dietitian.com/protein.html

    Bcat are you really going to go there with me and start quoting links? *think about that for a minute* =)

    Actually I dont even need to quote links. I'll just mention names.

    Alan Aragon
    Lyle McDonald
    Martin Berkhan

    Start reading.

    While I respect a lot of your information, I disagree with the idea that a BBer would need 300-350g of protein per day for muscle growth. The reason they eat so much protein is to fill caloric needs while avoiding fat and carbohydrates. I'm sure you know that glucogenic amino acid backbones are easily utilized in gluconeogenesis when carbohydrate levels are too low, as is the case with most BBers who purposely limit carbohydrate intake. The reason we don't really know how much protein people need is that it is near impossible to measure absorption in humans because at this point we'd need to implant and ostomy, and no one really wants to do that in the name of science. The highest recorded level of protein that correlated at all with muscle repair was in Russian athletes back in the 80's, and it was 2.7g/kg.

    Arguing about protein requirements is fairly silly since there's actually no way to measure absorption (and therefor, utilization).

    Right, but some BBers are so huge they need that 350-400g. Also, years and years of BBers having success while increasing protein intake can't be discounted. How much is needed is very much debatable but the best science we have on the subject says aroung 0.8-1g per pound or 2.7g/kg. That's better, IMO, that just saying eff protein and get 40g per day. The TEF of protein makes it better if you are losing weight and it's difficult to get too much protein. So, IMO, even if you are getting more than is needed it's better than not getting enough.

    Actually it's not as simple as .8-1g/lb. There are ranges for different athletes, life stages, etc. TEF of protein is the same as anything....10-15% total calories consumed. Not sure how that makes a difference for weight loss.

    I don't know what you're reading but it's pretty well known fact that protein has a higher TEF.
  • rachelleh09
    rachelleh09 Posts: 35
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    as a woman, if i only need 55 grams of protein a day. why is mfp giving me a goal of over 100? is mfp measured in grams? im confused

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