How much protein do you really need?
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To build muscle you need protein. So not only do you have to retain what you have, but ingest more protein to build more muscle. If every gram went to muscle building, that would be fine, but some gets stored, some gets excreted and some gets burned as fuel (especially if you low carb).0 -
I'm not anti-vegan. Honestly I could care less, but when people start bringing starving children or animal cruelty into the discussion, it gets a bit ridiculous.
It is very hard for a bodybuilder that is serious about bulking and getting their protein intake to eat protein from veggies only. It's almost impossible. They have to consume alot of shakes to get their intake.
Vegetables do not exaclty have enormous amounts of protein. Some bodybuilders that bulk 5-6 months out of the year ingest in upwards of 300-350g of protein per day. Thats ALOT of vegetables.
But do bodybuilders really "need" that much protein??
http://www.dietitian.com/protein.html
Bcat are you really going to go there with me and start quoting links? *think about that for a minute*
Actually I dont even need to quote links. I'll just mention names.
Alan Aragon
Lyle McDonald
Martin Berkhan
Start reading.
While I respect a lot of your information, I disagree with the idea that a BBer would need 300-350g of protein per day for muscle growth. The reason they eat so much protein is to fill caloric needs while avoiding fat and carbohydrates. I'm sure you know that glucogenic amino acid backbones are easily utilized in gluconeogenesis when carbohydrate levels are too low, as is the case with most BBers who purposely limit carbohydrate intake. The reason we don't really know how much protein people need is that it is near impossible to measure absorption in humans because at this point we'd need to implant and ostomy, and no one really wants to do that in the name of science. The highest recorded level of protein that correlated at all with muscle repair was in Russian athletes back in the 80's, and it was 2.7g/kg.
Arguing about protein requirements is fairly silly since there's actually no way to measure absorption (and therefor, utilization).
Right, but some BBers are so huge they need that 350-400g. Also, years and years of BBers having success while increasing protein intake can't be discounted. How much is needed is very much debatable but the best science we have on the subject says aroung 0.8-1g per pound or 2.7g/kg. That's better, IMO, that just saying eff protein and get 40g per day. The TEF of protein makes it better if you are losing weight and it's difficult to get too much protein. So, IMO, even if you are getting more than is needed it's better than not getting enough.
Actually it's not as simple as .8-1g/lb. There are ranges for different athletes, life stages, etc. TEF of protein is the same as anything....10-15% total calories consumed. Not sure how that makes a difference for weight loss.
I don't know what you're reading but it's pretty well known fact that protein has a higher TEF.
I think you're thinking of bioavailability. Put protein into a bomb calorimeter, and it will put out 7 cal/gram. Put it into your body, and it will put out 4 cal/gram. Not the same as TEF.
No, incorrect.
I don't generally quote wikipedia but
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermic_effect_of_food
http://www.caloriesperhour.com/tutorial_thermic.php
This study should show you everything you need to know about why a higher protein intake is good:
http://www.jacn.org/content/23/5/373.full.pdf+html
OH JOY AND RAPTURE A STUDY ON PROTEIN!!!!
I read 18 research articles and wrote a short lit review before I went on vacation 2 weeks ago. Give me a break. Please.0 -
Are people's ego's really in the way now? I mean seriously.
I definitely have a bit of an ego. I can because this is my livelihood. I am formally educated, I am running two projects focused on skeletal muscle metabolism, I teach it, I work 6-7 days a week and I know my ****.
But you show up with your damn broscience and ignorance and your head is so far up your poohole you want to challenge ME with it and ask if I know what I'm talking about. YES SIR I DO.
For someone with the degrees you state in your profile, you are very uninformed about the subject. I find that odd. Seriuously, with that education you have no idea about TEF?0 -
So what research are you doing songbyrd?0
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You mean schooling me like this?J Sports Sci. 2004 Jan;22(1):65-79.
Protein and amino acids for athletes.
Tipton KD, Wolfe RR.
SourceDepartment of Surgery, University of Texas Medical Branch, Shriner's Hospital for Children, 815 Market Street, Galveston, TX 77550, USA. ktipton@utmb.edu
Abstract
The main determinants of an athlete's protein needs are their training regime and habitual nutrient intake. Most athletes ingest sufficient protein in their habitual diet. Additional protein will confer only a minimal, albeit arguably important, additional advantage. Given sufficient energy intake, lean body mass can be maintained within a wide range of protein intakes. Since there is limited evidence for harmful effects of a high protein intake and there is a metabolic rationale for the efficacy of an increase in protein, if muscle hypertrophy is the goal, a higher protein intake within the context of an athlete's overall dietary requirements may be beneficial. However, there are few convincing outcome data to indicate that the ingestion of a high amount of protein (2-3 g x kg(-1) BW x day(-1), where BW = body weight) is necessary. Current literature suggests that it may be too simplistic to rely on recommendations of a particular amount of protein per day. Acute studies suggest that for any given amount of protein, the metabolic response is dependent on other factors, including the timing of ingestion in relation to exercise and/or other nutrients, the composition of ingested amino acids and the type of protein.
PMID:14971434[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14971434
And this?Dietary protein to support anabolism with resistance exercise in young men.
Phillips SM, Hartman JW, Wilkinson SB.
SourceExercise Metabolism Research Group, Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, 1280 Main St. West, Hamilton, ON L8S 4K1 CANADA. phillis@mcmaster.ca
Abstract
Resistance exercise is fundamentally anabolic and as such stimulates the process of skeletal muscle protein synthesis (MPS) in an absolute sense and relative to skeletal muscle protein breakdown (MPB). However, the net effect of resistance exercise is to shift net protein balance (NPB = MPS - MPB) to a more positive value; however, in the absence of feeding NPB remains negative. Feeding stimulates MPS to an extent where NPB becomes positive, for a transient time. When combined, resistance exercise and feeding synergistically interact to result in NPB being greater than with feeding alone. This feeding- and exercise-induced stimulation of NPB is what, albeit slowly, results in muscle hypertrophy. With this rudimentary knowledge we are now at the point where we can manipulate variables within the system to see what impact these interventions have on the processes of MPS, MPB, and NPB and ultimately and perhaps most importantly, muscle hypertrophy and strength. We used established models of skeletal muscle amino acid turnover to examine how protein source (milk versus soy) acutely affects the processes of MPS and MPB after resistance exercise. Our findings revealed that even when balanced quantities of total protein and energy are consumed that milk proteins are more effective in stimulating amino acid uptake and net protein deposition in skeletal muscle after resistance exercise than are hydrolyzed soy proteins. Importantly, the finding of increased amino acid uptake would be independent of the differences in amino acid composition of the two proteins. We propose that the improved net protein deposition with milk protein consumption is also not due to differences in amino acid composition, but is due to a different pattern of amino acid delivery associated with milk versus hydrolyzed soy proteins. If our acute findings are accurate then we hypothesized that chronically the greater net protein deposition associated with milk protein consumption post-resistance exercise would eventually lead to greater net protein accretion (i.e., muscle fiber hypertrophy), over a longer time period. In young men completing 12 weeks of resistance training (5d/wk) we observed a tendency (P = 0.11) for greater gains in whole body lean mass and whole as greater muscle fiber hypertrophy with consumption of milk. While strength gains were not different between the soy and milk-supplemented groups we would argue that the true significance of a greater increase in lean mass that we observed with milk consumption may be more important in groups of persons with lower initial lean mass and strength such as the elderly.
PMID:15798080[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Free full text
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15798080
Need more?Sports Med. 1991 Nov;12(5):313-25.
Protein intake and athletic performance.
Lemon PW, Proctor DN.
SourceApplied Physiology Research Laboratory, School of Biomedical Sciences, Kent State University, Ohio.
Abstract
For most of the current century, exercise/nutritional scientists have generally accepted the belief that exercise has little effect on protein/amino acid requirements. However, during the same time period many athletes (especially strength athletes) have routinely consumed diets high in protein. In recent years, the results of a number of investigations involving both strength and endurance athletes indicate that, in fact, exercise does increase protein/amino acid need. For endurance athletes, regular exercise may increase protein need by 50 to 100%. For strength athletes, the data are less clear; however, protein intakes in excess of sedentary needs may enhance muscle development. Despite these observations increased protein intake may not improve athletic performance because many athletes routinely consume 150 to 200% of sedentary protein requirements. Assuming total energy intake is sufficient to cover the high expenditures caused by daily training, a diet containing 12 to 15% of its energy from protein should be adequate for both types of athletes.
PMID:1763249[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1763249
Do you even do research from reputable and legitimate sources? Increase in endurance and/or strength training needs additional protien intake.J Am Coll Nutr. 2000 Oct;19(5 Suppl):513S-521S.
Beyond the zone: protein needs of active individuals.
Lemon PW.
SourceExercise Nutrition Research Laboratory, The University of Western Ontario, London, Canada. plemon@julian.uwo.ca
Abstract
There has been debate among athletes and nutritionists regarding dietary protein needs for centuries. Although contrary to traditional belief, recent scientific information collected on physically active individuals tends to indicate that regular exercise increases daily protein requirements; however, the precise details remain to be worked out. Based on laboratory measures, daily protein requirements are increased by perhaps as much as 100% vs. recommendations for sedentary individuals (1.6-1.8 vs. 0.8 g/kg). Yet even these intakes are much less than those reported by most athletes. This may mean that actual requirements are below what is needed to optimize athletic performance, and so the debate continues. Numerous interacting factors including energy intake, carbohydrate availability, exercise intensity, duration and type, dietary protein quality, training history, gender, age, timing of nutrient intake and the like make this topic extremely complex. Many questions remain to be resolved. At the present time, substantial data indicate that the current recommended protein intake should be adjusted upward for those who are physically active, especially in populations whose needs are elevated for other reasons, e.g., growing individuals, dieters, vegetarians, individuals with muscle disease-induced weakness and the elderly. For these latter groups, specific supplementation may be appropriate, but for most North Americans who consume a varied diet, including complete protein foods (meat, eggs, fish and dairy products), and sufficient energy the increased protein needs induced by a regular exercise program can be met in one's diet.
PMID:11023001[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Free full text
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11023001
I really need to keep going I guess.BACKGROUND
Amino acids are the building blocks of protein in the body; assuch they are essential for the synthesis of structural proteins,enzymes, and some hormones and neurotransmitters. Amino acids arealso involved in numerous metabolic pathways that affect exercisemetabolism. Consequently, it has been suggested that athletesinvolved in intense training require additional protein in the dietor that they should supplement their diet with specific amino acids.I review here the rationale and the evidence for the potentialergogenic effect of short-term supplementation with protein and aminoacids and the evidence for the potential anabolic effect oflonger-term use when supplementation is combined with training. Ideal first with protein, then with the amino acids under thefollowing headings: the potentially anabolic amino acids; thebranched-chain amino acids, which have a somewhat different role inmetabolism and in their potential effect on performance; glutamine,which is in a class of its own for its effects on the immune system;creatine, an amino acid that is not one of the building blocks ofprotein but is involved in short-term energy production in muscle;and hydroxymethylbutyrate (HMB), a potentially anabolic metabolite ofthe amino acid leucine.
LITERATURE
This review is an update rather than an exhaustive account of allpublished works on the topic. I have cited two books, 60 researcharticles, 10 published abstracts, and 18 review articles/bookchapters from my own database of references. In my database there area further 97 research articles, 78 abstracts, and 38 reviewarticles/book chapters on the topic. These additional references arereviewed elsewhere (Kreider, 1999; Kreider,1998; Williams et al., 1999). Downloadthe complete list as a Word 97 file by clicking on thislink.
FINDINGS
Protein
A considerable amount of research has evaluated dietaryprotein needs of athletes. Although there is some debate, moststudies indicate that in order to maintain protein balance duringintense resistance and/or endurance training, athletes should ingestapproximately 1.3 to 1.8 g protein per kg body mass per day(Butterfield, 1991; Lemon,1998; Kreider et al., 1993; Kreider,1999). Athletes training at high-altitude may need as much as 2.2g protein per kg per day in order to maintain protein balance(Butterfield, 1991). This protein intakeis about 1.5 to 2 times the recommended dietary allowance (RDA) forthe normal adult. In most instances an iso-energetic diet can providethe required protein, but athletes who maintain hypo-energetic diets,do not ingest enough quality protein in their diet, and/or train ataltitude may be susceptible to protein malnutrition (Kreider,1999). In theory, this state could slow tissue growth and/orrecovery from training. On the other hand, ingesting more proteinthan necessary to maintain protein balance during training (e.g.,> 1.8 g/kg/d) does not promote greater gains in strength orfat-free mass (Lemon et al., 1992;Tarnopolsky et al., 1992). Thesefindings indicate that athletes typically do not need to supplementtheir normal diets with protein, provided they ingest enough qualityprotein to maintain protein balance.
http://sportsci.org/jour/9901/rbk.htmlNutrition. 2004 Jul-Aug;20(7-8):689-95.
Protein requirements and supplementation in strength sports.
Phillips SM.
SourceExercise Metabolism Research Group, Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. phillis@mcmaster.ca
Abstract
Daily requirements for protein are set by the amount of amino acids that is irreversibly lost in a given day. Different agencies have set requirement levels for daily protein intakes for the general population; however, the question of whether strength-trained athletes require more protein than the general population is one that is difficult to answer. At a cellular level, an increased requirement for protein in strength-trained athletes might arise due to the extra protein required to support muscle protein accretion through elevated protein synthesis. Alternatively, an increased requirement for protein may come about in this group of athletes due to increased catabolic loss of amino acids associated with strength-training activities. A review of studies that have examined the protein requirements of strength-trained athletes, using nitrogen balance methodology, has shown a modest increase in requirements in this group. At the same time, several studies have shown that strength training, consistent with the anabolic stimulus for protein synthesis it provides, actually increases the efficiency of use of protein, which reduces dietary protein requirements. Various studies have shown that strength-trained athletes habitually consume protein intakes higher than required. A positive energy balance is required for anabolism, so a requirement for "extra" protein over and above normal values also appears not to be a critical issue for competitive athletes because most would have to be in positive energy balance to compete effectively. At present there is no evidence to suggest that supplements are required for optimal muscle growth or strength gain. Strength-trained athletes should consume protein consistent with general population guidelines, or 12% to 15% of energy from protein.
PMID:15212752[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15212752
Ok ok ok ok...I'll stop. But ya see...you don't have any backed up research defending your statements. You just throw more insults out to try to make a point.
Interesting.0 -
I'm not anti-vegan. Honestly I could care less, but when people start bringing starving children or animal cruelty into the discussion, it gets a bit ridiculous.
It is very hard for a bodybuilder that is serious about bulking and getting their protein intake to eat protein from veggies only. It's almost impossible. They have to consume alot of shakes to get their intake.
Vegetables do not exaclty have enormous amounts of protein. Some bodybuilders that bulk 5-6 months out of the year ingest in upwards of 300-350g of protein per day. Thats ALOT of vegetables.
But do bodybuilders really "need" that much protein??
http://www.dietitian.com/protein.html
Bcat are you really going to go there with me and start quoting links? *think about that for a minute*
Actually I dont even need to quote links. I'll just mention names.
Alan Aragon
Lyle McDonald
Martin Berkhan
Start reading.
While I respect a lot of your information, I disagree with the idea that a BBer would need 300-350g of protein per day for muscle growth. The reason they eat so much protein is to fill caloric needs while avoiding fat and carbohydrates. I'm sure you know that glucogenic amino acid backbones are easily utilized in gluconeogenesis when carbohydrate levels are too low, as is the case with most BBers who purposely limit carbohydrate intake. The reason we don't really know how much protein people need is that it is near impossible to measure absorption in humans because at this point we'd need to implant and ostomy, and no one really wants to do that in the name of science. The highest recorded level of protein that correlated at all with muscle repair was in Russian athletes back in the 80's, and it was 2.7g/kg.
Arguing about protein requirements is fairly silly since there's actually no way to measure absorption (and therefor, utilization).
Right, but some BBers are so huge they need that 350-400g. Also, years and years of BBers having success while increasing protein intake can't be discounted. How much is needed is very much debatable but the best science we have on the subject says aroung 0.8-1g per pound or 2.7g/kg. That's better, IMO, that just saying eff protein and get 40g per day. The TEF of protein makes it better if you are losing weight and it's difficult to get too much protein. So, IMO, even if you are getting more than is needed it's better than not getting enough.
Actually it's not as simple as .8-1g/lb. There are ranges for different athletes, life stages, etc. TEF of protein is the same as anything....10-15% total calories consumed. Not sure how that makes a difference for weight loss.
I don't know what you're reading but it's pretty well known fact that protein has a higher TEF.
I think you're thinking of bioavailability. Put protein into a bomb calorimeter, and it will put out 7 cal/gram. Put it into your body, and it will put out 4 cal/gram. Not the same as TEF.
No, incorrect.
I don't generally quote wikipedia but
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermic_effect_of_food
http://www.caloriesperhour.com/tutorial_thermic.php
This study should show you everything you need to know about why a higher protein intake is good:
http://www.jacn.org/content/23/5/373.full.pdf+html
OH JOY AND RAPTURE A STUDY ON PROTEIN!!!!
I read 18 research articles and wrote a short lit review before I went on vacation 2 weeks ago. Give me a break. Please.
Funny, the this really isn't a study, it's a review. Obviously you have not read it since it summarizes about 15 studies. All of the longterm studies show that protein is key in weight loss.0 -
To build muscle you need protein. So not only do you have to retain what you have, but ingest more protein to build more muscle. If every gram went to muscle building, that would be fine, but some gets stored, some gets excreted and some gets burned as fuel (especially if you low carb).
Yes, protein builds muscle (never said it didn't). Yes, you need more protein if you are eating low carb than if you aren't. I just questioned whether bodybuilders really need the massive amounts they think they do. And I posted a link to a dietician's blog that I thought was interesting (never even said whether I agreed with it and certainly never offered is as "fact" or proof of anything). And then panties started bunching.0 -
Are people's ego's really in the way now? I mean seriously.
I definitely have a bit of an ego. I can because this is my livelihood. I am formally educated, I am running two projects focused on skeletal muscle metabolism, I teach it, I work 6-7 days a week and I know my ****.
But you show up with your damn broscience and ignorance and your head is so far up your poohole you want to challenge ME with it and ask if I know what I'm talking about. YES SIR I DO.
For someone with the degrees you state in your profile, you are very uninformed about the subject. I find that odd. Seriuously, with that education you have no idea about TEF?
No. You just don't know enough about it to know what I'm talking about.0 -
Nitrogen balance techniques suggest that the protein requirements to attain zero nitrogen balance in those that engage in resistance training range from 1.2–2.2 grams of protein per kg of bodyweight [1-6]. FYI: 1.2 grams per kg = 0.54 grams per pound and 2.2 grams per kg = 1 gram per pound of bodyweight.
Read the NIH studies I posted above.0 -
Are people's ego's really in the way now? I mean seriously.
I definitely have a bit of an ego. I can because this is my livelihood. I am formally educated, I am running two projects focused on skeletal muscle metabolism, I teach it, I work 6-7 days a week and I know my ****.
But you show up with your damn broscience and ignorance and your head is so far up your poohole you want to challenge ME with it and ask if I know what I'm talking about. YES SIR I DO.
For someone with the degrees you state in your profile, you are very uninformed about the subject. I find that odd. Seriuously, with that education you have no idea about TEF?
No. You just don't know enough about it to know what I'm talking about.
Really? At least I know what TEF is. I also happen to have a fancy degree too but that's not really important here now is it?0 -
Where are your posted studies at song? I posted about 6 of them or so. Do you have any or just "articles" from wikipedia? LOL.0
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You mean schooling me like this?J Sports Sci. 2004 Jan;22(1):65-79.
Protein and amino acids for athletes.
Tipton KD, Wolfe RR.
SourceDepartment of Surgery, University of Texas Medical Branch, Shriner's Hospital for Children, 815 Market Street, Galveston, TX 77550, USA. ktipton@utmb.edu
Abstract
The main determinants of an athlete's protein needs are their training regime and habitual nutrient intake. Most athletes ingest sufficient protein in their habitual diet. Additional protein will confer only a minimal, albeit arguably important, additional advantage. Given sufficient energy intake, lean body mass can be maintained within a wide range of protein intakes. Since there is limited evidence for harmful effects of a high protein intake and there is a metabolic rationale for the efficacy of an increase in protein, if muscle hypertrophy is the goal, a higher protein intake within the context of an athlete's overall dietary requirements may be beneficial. However, there are few convincing outcome data to indicate that the ingestion of a high amount of protein (2-3 g x kg(-1) BW x day(-1), where BW = body weight) is necessary. Current literature suggests that it may be too simplistic to rely on recommendations of a particular amount of protein per day. Acute studies suggest that for any given amount of protein, the metabolic response is dependent on other factors, including the timing of ingestion in relation to exercise and/or other nutrients, the composition of ingested amino acids and the type of protein.
PMID:14971434[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14971434
And this?Dietary protein to support anabolism with resistance exercise in young men.
Phillips SM, Hartman JW, Wilkinson SB.
SourceExercise Metabolism Research Group, Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, 1280 Main St. West, Hamilton, ON L8S 4K1 CANADA. phillis@mcmaster.ca
Abstract
Resistance exercise is fundamentally anabolic and as such stimulates the process of skeletal muscle protein synthesis (MPS) in an absolute sense and relative to skeletal muscle protein breakdown (MPB). However, the net effect of resistance exercise is to shift net protein balance (NPB = MPS - MPB) to a more positive value; however, in the absence of feeding NPB remains negative. Feeding stimulates MPS to an extent where NPB becomes positive, for a transient time. When combined, resistance exercise and feeding synergistically interact to result in NPB being greater than with feeding alone. This feeding- and exercise-induced stimulation of NPB is what, albeit slowly, results in muscle hypertrophy. With this rudimentary knowledge we are now at the point where we can manipulate variables within the system to see what impact these interventions have on the processes of MPS, MPB, and NPB and ultimately and perhaps most importantly, muscle hypertrophy and strength. We used established models of skeletal muscle amino acid turnover to examine how protein source (milk versus soy) acutely affects the processes of MPS and MPB after resistance exercise. Our findings revealed that even when balanced quantities of total protein and energy are consumed that milk proteins are more effective in stimulating amino acid uptake and net protein deposition in skeletal muscle after resistance exercise than are hydrolyzed soy proteins. Importantly, the finding of increased amino acid uptake would be independent of the differences in amino acid composition of the two proteins. We propose that the improved net protein deposition with milk protein consumption is also not due to differences in amino acid composition, but is due to a different pattern of amino acid delivery associated with milk versus hydrolyzed soy proteins. If our acute findings are accurate then we hypothesized that chronically the greater net protein deposition associated with milk protein consumption post-resistance exercise would eventually lead to greater net protein accretion (i.e., muscle fiber hypertrophy), over a longer time period. In young men completing 12 weeks of resistance training (5d/wk) we observed a tendency (P = 0.11) for greater gains in whole body lean mass and whole as greater muscle fiber hypertrophy with consumption of milk. While strength gains were not different between the soy and milk-supplemented groups we would argue that the true significance of a greater increase in lean mass that we observed with milk consumption may be more important in groups of persons with lower initial lean mass and strength such as the elderly.
PMID:15798080[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Free full text
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15798080
Need more?Sports Med. 1991 Nov;12(5):313-25.
Protein intake and athletic performance.
Lemon PW, Proctor DN.
SourceApplied Physiology Research Laboratory, School of Biomedical Sciences, Kent State University, Ohio.
Abstract
For most of the current century, exercise/nutritional scientists have generally accepted the belief that exercise has little effect on protein/amino acid requirements. However, during the same time period many athletes (especially strength athletes) have routinely consumed diets high in protein. In recent years, the results of a number of investigations involving both strength and endurance athletes indicate that, in fact, exercise does increase protein/amino acid need. For endurance athletes, regular exercise may increase protein need by 50 to 100%. For strength athletes, the data are less clear; however, protein intakes in excess of sedentary needs may enhance muscle development. Despite these observations increased protein intake may not improve athletic performance because many athletes routinely consume 150 to 200% of sedentary protein requirements. Assuming total energy intake is sufficient to cover the high expenditures caused by daily training, a diet containing 12 to 15% of its energy from protein should be adequate for both types of athletes.
PMID:1763249[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1763249
Do you even do research from reputable and legitimate sources? Increase in endurance and/or strength training needs additional protien intake.J Am Coll Nutr. 2000 Oct;19(5 Suppl):513S-521S.
Beyond the zone: protein needs of active individuals.
Lemon PW.
SourceExercise Nutrition Research Laboratory, The University of Western Ontario, London, Canada. plemon@julian.uwo.ca
Abstract
There has been debate among athletes and nutritionists regarding dietary protein needs for centuries. Although contrary to traditional belief, recent scientific information collected on physically active individuals tends to indicate that regular exercise increases daily protein requirements; however, the precise details remain to be worked out. Based on laboratory measures, daily protein requirements are increased by perhaps as much as 100% vs. recommendations for sedentary individuals (1.6-1.8 vs. 0.8 g/kg). Yet even these intakes are much less than those reported by most athletes. This may mean that actual requirements are below what is needed to optimize athletic performance, and so the debate continues. Numerous interacting factors including energy intake, carbohydrate availability, exercise intensity, duration and type, dietary protein quality, training history, gender, age, timing of nutrient intake and the like make this topic extremely complex. Many questions remain to be resolved. At the present time, substantial data indicate that the current recommended protein intake should be adjusted upward for those who are physically active, especially in populations whose needs are elevated for other reasons, e.g., growing individuals, dieters, vegetarians, individuals with muscle disease-induced weakness and the elderly. For these latter groups, specific supplementation may be appropriate, but for most North Americans who consume a varied diet, including complete protein foods (meat, eggs, fish and dairy products), and sufficient energy the increased protein needs induced by a regular exercise program can be met in one's diet.
PMID:11023001[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Free full text
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11023001
I really need to keep going I guess.BACKGROUND
Amino acids are the building blocks of protein in the body; assuch they are essential for the synthesis of structural proteins,enzymes, and some hormones and neurotransmitters. Amino acids arealso involved in numerous metabolic pathways that affect exercisemetabolism. Consequently, it has been suggested that athletesinvolved in intense training require additional protein in the dietor that they should supplement their diet with specific amino acids.I review here the rationale and the evidence for the potentialergogenic effect of short-term supplementation with protein and aminoacids and the evidence for the potential anabolic effect oflonger-term use when supplementation is combined with training. Ideal first with protein, then with the amino acids under thefollowing headings: the potentially anabolic amino acids; thebranched-chain amino acids, which have a somewhat different role inmetabolism and in their potential effect on performance; glutamine,which is in a class of its own for its effects on the immune system;creatine, an amino acid that is not one of the building blocks ofprotein but is involved in short-term energy production in muscle;and hydroxymethylbutyrate (HMB), a potentially anabolic metabolite ofthe amino acid leucine.
LITERATURE
This review is an update rather than an exhaustive account of allpublished works on the topic. I have cited two books, 60 researcharticles, 10 published abstracts, and 18 review articles/bookchapters from my own database of references. In my database there area further 97 research articles, 78 abstracts, and 38 reviewarticles/book chapters on the topic. These additional references arereviewed elsewhere (Kreider, 1999; Kreider,1998; Williams et al., 1999). Downloadthe complete list as a Word 97 file by clicking on thislink.
FINDINGS
Protein
A considerable amount of research has evaluated dietaryprotein needs of athletes. Although there is some debate, moststudies indicate that in order to maintain protein balance duringintense resistance and/or endurance training, athletes should ingestapproximately 1.3 to 1.8 g protein per kg body mass per day(Butterfield, 1991; Lemon,1998; Kreider et al., 1993; Kreider,1999). Athletes training at high-altitude may need as much as 2.2g protein per kg per day in order to maintain protein balance(Butterfield, 1991). This protein intakeis about 1.5 to 2 times the recommended dietary allowance (RDA) forthe normal adult. In most instances an iso-energetic diet can providethe required protein, but athletes who maintain hypo-energetic diets,do not ingest enough quality protein in their diet, and/or train ataltitude may be susceptible to protein malnutrition (Kreider,1999). In theory, this state could slow tissue growth and/orrecovery from training. On the other hand, ingesting more proteinthan necessary to maintain protein balance during training (e.g.,> 1.8 g/kg/d) does not promote greater gains in strength orfat-free mass (Lemon et al., 1992;Tarnopolsky et al., 1992). Thesefindings indicate that athletes typically do not need to supplementtheir normal diets with protein, provided they ingest enough qualityprotein to maintain protein balance.
http://sportsci.org/jour/9901/rbk.htmlNutrition. 2004 Jul-Aug;20(7-8):689-95.
Protein requirements and supplementation in strength sports.
Phillips SM.
SourceExercise Metabolism Research Group, Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. phillis@mcmaster.ca
Abstract
Daily requirements for protein are set by the amount of amino acids that is irreversibly lost in a given day. Different agencies have set requirement levels for daily protein intakes for the general population; however, the question of whether strength-trained athletes require more protein than the general population is one that is difficult to answer. At a cellular level, an increased requirement for protein in strength-trained athletes might arise due to the extra protein required to support muscle protein accretion through elevated protein synthesis. Alternatively, an increased requirement for protein may come about in this group of athletes due to increased catabolic loss of amino acids associated with strength-training activities. A review of studies that have examined the protein requirements of strength-trained athletes, using nitrogen balance methodology, has shown a modest increase in requirements in this group. At the same time, several studies have shown that strength training, consistent with the anabolic stimulus for protein synthesis it provides, actually increases the efficiency of use of protein, which reduces dietary protein requirements. Various studies have shown that strength-trained athletes habitually consume protein intakes higher than required. A positive energy balance is required for anabolism, so a requirement for "extra" protein over and above normal values also appears not to be a critical issue for competitive athletes because most would have to be in positive energy balance to compete effectively. At present there is no evidence to suggest that supplements are required for optimal muscle growth or strength gain. Strength-trained athletes should consume protein consistent with general population guidelines, or 12% to 15% of energy from protein.
PMID:15212752[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15212752
Ok ok ok ok...I'll stop. But ya see...you don't have any backed up research defending your statements. You just throw more insults out to try to make a point.
Interesting.
Wow Joe, great job copying and pasting. Did you actually read any of those abstracts? Here, I'll copy and paste too.
However, there are few convincing outcome data to indicate that the ingestion of a high amount of protein (2-3 g x kg(-1) BW x day(-1), where BW = body weight) is necessary.
In young men completing 12 weeks of resistance training (5d/wk) we observed a tendency (P = 0.11) for greater gains in whole body lean mass and whole as greater muscle fiber hypertrophy with consumption of milk. <<This is just comparing milk to soy, and it's not significant.
Despite these observations increased protein intake may not improve athletic performance because many athletes routinely consume 150 to 200% of sedentary protein requirements. Assuming total energy intake is sufficient to cover the high expenditures caused by daily training, a diet containing 12 to 15% of its energy from protein should be adequate for both types of athletes. <<12-15%....hm.
Although there is some debate, moststudies indicate that in order to maintain protein balance duringintense resistance and/or endurance training, athletes should ingestapproximately 1.3 to 1.8 g protein per kg body mass per day(Butterfield, 1991; Lemon,1998; Kreider et al., 1993; Kreider,1999). Athletes training at high-altitude may need as much as 2.2g protein per kg per day in order to maintain protein balance(Butterfield, 1991). <<< Note that this is per KILOGRAM...not gram.
At present there is no evidence to suggest that supplements are required for optimal muscle growth or strength gain. Strength-trained athletes should consume protein consistent with general population guidelines, or 12% to 15% of energy from protein.
SO Joe...what are you trying to say here?0 -
TEF:
TEF (Thermic effect of feeding): The calorie expenditure associated with eating. REGARDLESS of what myths you have been told - this is NOT dependent on MEAL FREQUENCY. It is a % of TOTAL CALORIES CONSUMED (and 15% of 3 x 600 cal meals is the same as 15% of 6 x 300 cal meals). It varies according to MACRONUTRIENT content and FIBER content. For most mixed diets, it is something around 15%. Protein is higher (up to 25%), carbs are variable (between 5-25%), and fats are low (usually less than 5%). So -> More protein and more carbs and more fiber = HIGHER TEF. More FAT = LOWER TEF.0 -
Nitrogen balance techniques suggest that the protein requirements to attain zero nitrogen balance in those that engage in resistance training range from 1.2–2.2 grams of protein per kg of bodyweight [1-6]. FYI: 1.2 grams per kg = 0.54 grams per pound and 2.2 grams per kg = 1 gram per pound of bodyweight.
Read the NIH studies I posted above.
I'm about to give on this discussion because not only do we have one of the usual suspects but we also have a new grad who thinks she knows everything.
Again, we have certain people here who spit in the face of real science because they have some agenda, in this case it's the vegan lifestyle apparently.0 -
Are people's ego's really in the way now? I mean seriously.
I definitely have a bit of an ego. I can because this is my livelihood. I am formally educated, I am running two projects focused on skeletal muscle metabolism, I teach it, I work 6-7 days a week and I know my ****.
But you show up with your damn broscience and ignorance and your head is so far up your poohole you want to challenge ME with it and ask if I know what I'm talking about. YES SIR I DO.
For someone with the degrees you state in your profile, you are very uninformed about the subject. I find that odd. Seriuously, with that education you have no idea about TEF?
No. You just don't know enough about it to know what I'm talking about.
Really? At least I know what TEF. I also happen to have a fancy degree too but that's not really important here now is it?
Well gosh, good for you. Why don't you tell me all about the TEF since I'm sooooo clueless.0 -
Song if you actually read the ENTIRE study I posted it to show what the protein requirement was. Read it again.0
-
Nitrogen balance techniques suggest that the protein requirements to attain zero nitrogen balance in those that engage in resistance training range from 1.2–2.2 grams of protein per kg of bodyweight [1-6]. FYI: 1.2 grams per kg = 0.54 grams per pound and 2.2 grams per kg = 1 gram per pound of bodyweight.
Read the NIH studies I posted above.
People unqualified to properly interpret scientific studies are better off reading the recommendations of organizations such as the NIH, rather than picking individual studies to read.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002467.htm0 -
Nitrogen balance techniques suggest that the protein requirements to attain zero nitrogen balance in those that engage in resistance training range from 1.2–2.2 grams of protein per kg of bodyweight [1-6]. FYI: 1.2 grams per kg = 0.54 grams per pound and 2.2 grams per kg = 1 gram per pound of bodyweight.
Read the NIH studies I posted above.
I'm about to give on this discussion because not only do we have one of the usual suspects but we also have a new grad who thinks she knows everything.
Again, we have certain people here who spit in the face of real science because they have some agenda, in this case it's the vegan lifestyle apparently.
Yea I know. LOL. People think that just because they have a college degree that they know everything.
Amazing.0 -
Are people's ego's really in the way now? I mean seriously.
I definitely have a bit of an ego. I can because this is my livelihood. I am formally educated, I am running two projects focused on skeletal muscle metabolism, I teach it, I work 6-7 days a week and I know my ****.
But you show up with your damn broscience and ignorance and your head is so far up your poohole you want to challenge ME with it and ask if I know what I'm talking about. YES SIR I DO.
For someone with the degrees you state in your profile, you are very uninformed about the subject. I find that odd. Seriuously, with that education you have no idea about TEF?
No. You just don't know enough about it to know what I'm talking about.
Really? At least I know what TEF. I also happen to have a fancy degree too but that's not really important here now is it?
Well gosh, good for you. Why don't you tell me all about the TEF since I'm sooooo clueless.
I just posted some links for you to read yourself. Apparently you paid good money to be taught by qualified experts, perhaps you should ask for some of your money back?0 -
Song if you actually read the ENTIRE study I posted it to show what the protein requirement was. Read it again.
You posted the abstract....are you telling me the information in the abstract doesn't match the information in the results?0
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