How much protein do you really need?

liftingbro

I'm not anti-vegan. Honestly I could care less, but when people start bringing starving children or animal cruelty into the discussion, it gets a bit ridiculous.

It is very hard for a bodybuilder that is serious about bulking and getting their protein intake to eat protein from veggies only. It's almost impossible. They have to consume alot of shakes to get their intake.

Vegetables do not exaclty have enormous amounts of protein. Some bodybuilders that bulk 5-6 months out of the year ingest in upwards of 300-350g of protein per day. Thats ALOT of vegetables.

But do bodybuilders really "need" that much protein??

http://www.dietitian.com/protein.html

Bcat are you really going to go there with me and start quoting links? *think about that for a minute*

Actually I dont even need to quote links. I'll just mention names.

Alan Aragon
Lyle McDonald
Martin Berkhan

Start reading.

While I respect a lot of your information, I disagree with the idea that a BBer would need 300-350g of protein per day for muscle growth. The reason they eat so much protein is to fill caloric needs while avoiding fat and carbohydrates. I'm sure you know that glucogenic amino acid backbones are easily utilized in gluconeogenesis when carbohydrate levels are too low, as is the case with most BBers who purposely limit carbohydrate intake. The reason we don't really know how much protein people need is that it is near impossible to measure absorption in humans because at this point we'd need to implant and ostomy, and no one really wants to do that in the name of science. The highest recorded level of protein that correlated at all with muscle repair was in Russian athletes back in the 80's, and it was 2.7g/kg.

Arguing about protein requirements is fairly silly since there's actually no way to measure absorption (and therefor, utilization).

Right, but some BBers are so huge they need that 350-400g. Also, years and years of BBers having success while increasing protein intake can't be discounted. How much is needed is very much debatable but the best science we have on the subject says aroung 0.8-1g per pound or 2.7g/kg. That's better, IMO, that just saying eff protein and get 40g per day. The TEF of protein makes it better if you are losing weight and it's difficult to get too much protein. So, IMO, even if you are getting more than is needed it's better than not getting enough.

Actually it's not as simple as .8-1g/lb. There are ranges for different athletes, life stages, etc. TEF of protein is the same as anything....10-15% total calories consumed. Not sure how that makes a difference for weight loss.

There is no difference for athletes or "life stages". lol. It depends on your LBM. Do you even have a clue what you are talking about?

Watch it Joe, I got a warning already once from the mods for saying someone didn't have a clue.

joejccva71

I'm not anti-vegan. Honestly I could care less, but when people start bringing starving children or animal cruelty into the discussion, it gets a bit ridiculous.

It is very hard for a bodybuilder that is serious about bulking and getting their protein intake to eat protein from veggies only. It's almost impossible. They have to consume alot of shakes to get their intake.

Vegetables do not exaclty have enormous amounts of protein. Some bodybuilders that bulk 5-6 months out of the year ingest in upwards of 300-350g of protein per day. Thats ALOT of vegetables.

But do bodybuilders really "need" that much protein??

http://www.dietitian.com/protein.html

Bcat are you really going to go there with me and start quoting links? *think about that for a minute*

Actually I dont even need to quote links. I'll just mention names.

Alan Aragon
Lyle McDonald
Martin Berkhan

Start reading.

I'll try to remember those names, but honestly since I'm always over on protein anyway I don't know that I'll read them. I just always see people on this site saying how body builders "need" mass protein but I've never seen any medical organization recommend it. I have to wonder if it isn't all pushed by the protein supplement companies. When you follow links to those body building sites there are always ads galore for protein supplements.

Incorrect, because alot of the bodybuilding sites, forums, and bodybuilding nutritionist/dieticians will tell you to NOT eat or drink the supplements and to get your protein from whole foods.

Try again Bcatt.

songbyrdsweet

Do you agree that bodybuilders should consume 1-1.5g of protein per lb of bodyweight if they are very lean or 1-1.5g of protein per lb of LBM if they have a high bf%?

Yes or No.

Also, you do understand that if you don't get your minimum required protein amount that there WILL in fact be muscle breakdown...yes?

No to the first question.

Sort of yes to the 2nd question....but not exactly. You are in a constant state of breakdown. Your amino acid pool is dynamic and has a short half-life in the body. We don't measure protein levels, we measure nitrogen balance. We technically don't actually need protein, just a few amino acids. What we consider essential nutritionally is not essential physiologically. You could feed a person certain alpha-ketoacids, methionine, and betaine and they'd be fine without any protein (plant or animal) in the diet. People associate protein with food, but the body does a fine job of making it from its constituent parts and recycling bacteria and tissues from the gut.

songbyrdsweet

I'm not anti-vegan. Honestly I could care less, but when people start bringing starving children or animal cruelty into the discussion, it gets a bit ridiculous.

It is very hard for a bodybuilder that is serious about bulking and getting their protein intake to eat protein from veggies only. It's almost impossible. They have to consume alot of shakes to get their intake.

Vegetables do not exaclty have enormous amounts of protein. Some bodybuilders that bulk 5-6 months out of the year ingest in upwards of 300-350g of protein per day. Thats ALOT of vegetables.

But do bodybuilders really "need" that much protein??

http://www.dietitian.com/protein.html

Bcat are you really going to go there with me and start quoting links? *think about that for a minute*

Actually I dont even need to quote links. I'll just mention names.

Alan Aragon
Lyle McDonald
Martin Berkhan

Start reading.

While I respect a lot of your information, I disagree with the idea that a BBer would need 300-350g of protein per day for muscle growth. The reason they eat so much protein is to fill caloric needs while avoiding fat and carbohydrates. I'm sure you know that glucogenic amino acid backbones are easily utilized in gluconeogenesis when carbohydrate levels are too low, as is the case with most BBers who purposely limit carbohydrate intake. The reason we don't really know how much protein people need is that it is near impossible to measure absorption in humans because at this point we'd need to implant and ostomy, and no one really wants to do that in the name of science. The highest recorded level of protein that correlated at all with muscle repair was in Russian athletes back in the 80's, and it was 2.7g/kg.

Arguing about protein requirements is fairly silly since there's actually no way to measure absorption (and therefor, utilization).

Right, but some BBers are so huge they need that 350-400g. Also, years and years of BBers having success while increasing protein intake can't be discounted. How much is needed is very much debatable but the best science we have on the subject says aroung 0.8-1g per pound or 2.7g/kg. That's better, IMO, that just saying eff protein and get 40g per day. The TEF of protein makes it better if you are losing weight and it's difficult to get too much protein. So, IMO, even if you are getting more than is needed it's better than not getting enough.

Actually it's not as simple as .8-1g/lb. There are ranges for different athletes, life stages, etc. TEF of protein is the same as anything....10-15% total calories consumed. Not sure how that makes a difference for weight loss.

There is no difference for athletes or "life stages". lol. It depends on your LBM. Do you even have a clue what you are talking about?

WOW hahahah...read the ACSM guidelines.

And yea, I already have my BS and I'm in my second year of my PhD in skeletal muscle physiology at a prominent research institute and university. So you can suck it.

Teemo

When you follow links to those body building sites there are always ads galore for protein supplements.

Because who would else would advertise on a bodybuilding site?

bcattoes

I'm not anti-vegan. Honestly I could care less, but when people start bringing starving children or animal cruelty into the discussion, it gets a bit ridiculous.

It is very hard for a bodybuilder that is serious about bulking and getting their protein intake to eat protein from veggies only. It's almost impossible. They have to consume alot of shakes to get their intake.

Vegetables do not exaclty have enormous amounts of protein. Some bodybuilders that bulk 5-6 months out of the year ingest in upwards of 300-350g of protein per day. Thats ALOT of vegetables.

But do bodybuilders really "need" that much protein??

http://www.dietitian.com/protein.html

Bcat are you really going to go there with me and start quoting links? *think about that for a minute*

Actually I dont even need to quote links. I'll just mention names.

Alan Aragon
Lyle McDonald
Martin Berkhan

Start reading.

I'll try to remember those names, but honestly since I'm always over on protein anyway I don't know that I'll read them. I just always see people on this site saying how body builders "need" mass protein but I've never seen any medical organization recommend it. I have to wonder if it isn't all pushed by the protein supplement companies. When you follow links to those body building sites there are always ads galore for protein supplements.

Incorrect, because alot of the bodybuilding sites, forums, and bodybuilding nutritionist/dieticians will tell you to NOT eat or drink the supplements and to get your protein from whole foods.

Try again Bcatt.

What part is incorrect?

liftingbro

Curious as to why people seem to be so concerned about what bodybuilders are doing? It seems like these conversations always end up in an argument about what bodybuilders need/don't need.

Bodybuilders are human. Studies show that higher protein intake increases muscle mass when paired with lifting. That's a fact and that wasn't done on body builders. So, people follow body builder's nutrition plans because they work, just look at them. Sure, you have to scale it to your size because the average joe can't eat the same amount of stuff as a body builder but you take the same ratios and types of foods.

This works equally well for the average Joe, natural body builders, and Steroided Body Builders. Obviously on different scales but it does work well for all.

songbyrdsweet

I'm not anti-vegan. Honestly I could care less, but when people start bringing starving children or animal cruelty into the discussion, it gets a bit ridiculous.

It is very hard for a bodybuilder that is serious about bulking and getting their protein intake to eat protein from veggies only. It's almost impossible. They have to consume alot of shakes to get their intake.

Vegetables do not exaclty have enormous amounts of protein. Some bodybuilders that bulk 5-6 months out of the year ingest in upwards of 300-350g of protein per day. Thats ALOT of vegetables.

But do bodybuilders really "need" that much protein??

http://www.dietitian.com/protein.html

Bcat are you really going to go there with me and start quoting links? *think about that for a minute*

Actually I dont even need to quote links. I'll just mention names.

Alan Aragon
Lyle McDonald
Martin Berkhan

Start reading.

While I respect a lot of your information, I disagree with the idea that a BBer would need 300-350g of protein per day for muscle growth. The reason they eat so much protein is to fill caloric needs while avoiding fat and carbohydrates. I'm sure you know that glucogenic amino acid backbones are easily utilized in gluconeogenesis when carbohydrate levels are too low, as is the case with most BBers who purposely limit carbohydrate intake. The reason we don't really know how much protein people need is that it is near impossible to measure absorption in humans because at this point we'd need to implant and ostomy, and no one really wants to do that in the name of science. The highest recorded level of protein that correlated at all with muscle repair was in Russian athletes back in the 80's, and it was 2.7g/kg.

Arguing about protein requirements is fairly silly since there's actually no way to measure absorption (and therefor, utilization).

Right, but some BBers are so huge they need that 350-400g. Also, years and years of BBers having success while increasing protein intake can't be discounted. How much is needed is very much debatable but the best science we have on the subject says aroung 0.8-1g per pound or 2.7g/kg. That's better, IMO, that just saying eff protein and get 40g per day. The TEF of protein makes it better if you are losing weight and it's difficult to get too much protein. So, IMO, even if you are getting more than is needed it's better than not getting enough.

Actually it's not as simple as .8-1g/lb. There are ranges for different athletes, life stages, etc. TEF of protein is the same as anything....10-15% total calories consumed. Not sure how that makes a difference for weight loss.

I don't know what you're reading but it's pretty well known fact that protein has a higher TEF.

I think you're thinking of bioavailability. Put protein into a bomb calorimeter, and it will put out 7 cal/gram. Put it into your body, and it will put out 4 cal/gram. Not the same as TEF.

liftingbro

I'm not anti-vegan. Honestly I could care less, but when people start bringing starving children or animal cruelty into the discussion, it gets a bit ridiculous.

It is very hard for a bodybuilder that is serious about bulking and getting their protein intake to eat protein from veggies only. It's almost impossible. They have to consume alot of shakes to get their intake.

Vegetables do not exaclty have enormous amounts of protein. Some bodybuilders that bulk 5-6 months out of the year ingest in upwards of 300-350g of protein per day. Thats ALOT of vegetables.

But do bodybuilders really "need" that much protein??

http://www.dietitian.com/protein.html

Bcat are you really going to go there with me and start quoting links? *think about that for a minute*

Actually I dont even need to quote links. I'll just mention names.

Alan Aragon
Lyle McDonald
Martin Berkhan

Start reading.

I'll try to remember those names, but honestly since I'm always over on protein anyway I don't know that I'll read them. I just always see people on this site saying how body builders "need" mass protein but I've never seen any medical organization recommend it. I have to wonder if it isn't all pushed by the protein supplement companies. When you follow links to those body building sites there are always ads galore for protein supplements.

Incorrect, because alot of the bodybuilding sites, forums, and bodybuilding nutritionist/dieticians will tell you to NOT eat or drink the supplements and to get your protein from whole foods.

Try again Bcatt.

What part is incorrect?

Oh for God's sake bcattoes. You know, the part where you say they all advertise supplements. The people Joe quoted above largely don't advertise those sort of things. They also suggest getting your protein from real food.

joejccva71

You know what I find funny.

Every day I come on these boards, and every single day I see countless upon countless of posts where people's weight loss has stopped or plateau'd, or worse...they gained weight.

I've created countless posts and guides. I always ALWAYS talk about calories in vs calories out, and to HIT YOUR MACROS. Do you honestly think I'm just saying that to make myself look good? No, it's for a reason. MACROS MATTER. Your protein count and your fat count MATTER. Why is this is so difficult to understand?

Bcatt I know you are in your own little world over there always contradicting people, but ya know there are people on this forum that know what they are talking about. Alot of us have been there, and have watched not only our own transformations but alot of other people that are dedicated. We know what works and what doesn't.

Are people's ego's really in the way now? I mean seriously.

songbyrdsweet

Are people's ego's really in the way now? I mean seriously.

I definitely have a bit of an ego. I can because this is my livelihood. I am formally educated, I am running two projects focused on skeletal muscle metabolism, I teach it, I work 6-7 days a week and I know my ****.

But you show up with your damn broscience and ignorance and your head is so far up your poohole you want to challenge ME with it and ask if I know what I'm talking about. YES SIR I DO.

joejccva71

Are people's ego's really in the way now? I mean seriously.

I definitely have a bit of an ego. I can because this is my livelihood. I am formally educated, I am running two projects focused on skeletal muscle metabolism, I teach it, I work 6-7 days a week and I know my ****.

But you show up with your damn broscience and ignorance and your head is so far up your poohole you want to challenge ME with it and ask if I know what I'm talking about. YES SIR I DO.

Hahah...my broscience?

songbyrdsweet

Are people's ego's really in the way now? I mean seriously.

I definitely have a bit of an ego. I can because this is my livelihood. I am formally educated, I am running two projects focused on skeletal muscle metabolism, I teach it, I work 6-7 days a week and I know my ****.

But you show up with your damn broscience and ignorance and your head is so far up your poohole you want to challenge ME with it and ask if I know what I'm talking about. YES SIR I DO.

Hahah...my broscience?

Yea, crap that's either pulled out of thin air, speculated, or some bastardized form of a research article someone skimmed for 5 minutes. Then it's shared among the masses who are thankful that they didn't have to use any of their precious time doing any actual research. I can admit when I'm wrong, or when I don't know something. But in this case, I am not wrong, and you are rude and ignorant. You actually friended me a while back saying I really knew what I was talking about, so I find this situation pretty humorous.

songbyrdsweet

Furthermore, I invite you and the other guy who has no idea what he's talking about to rebut my previous statement so I can continue schooling you.

ninerbuff

There are many people who eat not only a vegan diet but a RAW vegan diet and are also athletes and body builders.

Must not be athletes and body builders I know about.

heathersmilez

There are many people who eat not only a vegan diet but a RAW vegan diet and are also athletes and body builders.

I know quite a few bodybuilders as well as IFBB bodybuilding competitors and almost every one of them eat some kind of meat to get their protein, and do not ONLY eat RAW veggies.

I would also be willing to bet that almost ALL players in the NFL eat some kind of meat, and don't get their protein from just veggies.

Superhero vegans are definitely in the minority but there are many and very successful. Read The Kind Life.

bcattoes

You know what I find funny.

Every day I come on these boards, and every single day I see countless upon countless of posts where people's weight loss has stopped or plateau'd, or worse...they gained weight.

I've created countless posts and guides. I always ALWAYS talk about calories in vs calories out, and to HIT YOUR MACROS. Do you honestly think I'm just saying that to make myself look good? No, it's for a reason. MACROS MATTER. Your protein count and your fat count MATTER. Why is this is so difficult to understand?

Bcatt I know you are in your own little world over there always contradicting people, but ya know there are people on this forum that know what they are talking about. Alot of us have been there, and have watched not only our own transformations but alot of other people that are dedicated. We know what works and what doesn't.

Are people's ego's really in the way now? I mean seriously.

I go by the national standards. I don't read one study and think it's just proved something because it's findings contradict the national standards. There are thousands of people doing research, studying and comparing others research, analysing past and present results to detemine what it all means. They spend their lives doing it and stake their reputations on their advice. So, I choose to follow thier advice here in my own little world.

songbyrdsweet

There are many people who eat not only a vegan diet but a RAW vegan diet and are also athletes and body builders.

I know quite a few bodybuilders as well as IFBB bodybuilding competitors and almost every one of them eat some kind of meat to get their protein, and do not ONLY eat RAW veggies.

I would also be willing to bet that almost ALL players in the NFL eat some kind of meat, and don't get their protein from just veggies.

Superhero vegans are definitely in the minority but there are many and very successful. Read The Kind Life.

Aw, man!! Can I be a superhero pescetarian? :frown:

liftingbro

I'm not anti-vegan. Honestly I could care less, but when people start bringing starving children or animal cruelty into the discussion, it gets a bit ridiculous.

It is very hard for a bodybuilder that is serious about bulking and getting their protein intake to eat protein from veggies only. It's almost impossible. They have to consume alot of shakes to get their intake.

Vegetables do not exaclty have enormous amounts of protein. Some bodybuilders that bulk 5-6 months out of the year ingest in upwards of 300-350g of protein per day. Thats ALOT of vegetables.

But do bodybuilders really "need" that much protein??

http://www.dietitian.com/protein.html

Bcat are you really going to go there with me and start quoting links? *think about that for a minute*

Actually I dont even need to quote links. I'll just mention names.

Alan Aragon
Lyle McDonald
Martin Berkhan

Start reading.

While I respect a lot of your information, I disagree with the idea that a BBer would need 300-350g of protein per day for muscle growth. The reason they eat so much protein is to fill caloric needs while avoiding fat and carbohydrates. I'm sure you know that glucogenic amino acid backbones are easily utilized in gluconeogenesis when carbohydrate levels are too low, as is the case with most BBers who purposely limit carbohydrate intake. The reason we don't really know how much protein people need is that it is near impossible to measure absorption in humans because at this point we'd need to implant and ostomy, and no one really wants to do that in the name of science. The highest recorded level of protein that correlated at all with muscle repair was in Russian athletes back in the 80's, and it was 2.7g/kg.

Arguing about protein requirements is fairly silly since there's actually no way to measure absorption (and therefor, utilization).

Right, but some BBers are so huge they need that 350-400g. Also, years and years of BBers having success while increasing protein intake can't be discounted. How much is needed is very much debatable but the best science we have on the subject says aroung 0.8-1g per pound or 2.7g/kg. That's better, IMO, that just saying eff protein and get 40g per day. The TEF of protein makes it better if you are losing weight and it's difficult to get too much protein. So, IMO, even if you are getting more than is needed it's better than not getting enough.

Actually it's not as simple as .8-1g/lb. There are ranges for different athletes, life stages, etc. TEF of protein is the same as anything....10-15% total calories consumed. Not sure how that makes a difference for weight loss.

I don't know what you're reading but it's pretty well known fact that protein has a higher TEF.

I think you're thinking of bioavailability. Put protein into a bomb calorimeter, and it will put out 7 cal/gram. Put it into your body, and it will put out 4 cal/gram. Not the same as TEF.

No, incorrect.
I don't generally quote wikipedia but

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermic_effect_of_food
http://www.caloriesperhour.com/tutorial_thermic.php

This study should show you everything you need to know about why a higher protein intake is good:
http://www.jacn.org/content/23/5/373.full.pdf+html

songbyrdsweet

You know what I find funny.

Every day I come on these boards, and every single day I see countless upon countless of posts where people's weight loss has stopped or plateau'd, or worse...they gained weight.

I've created countless posts and guides. I always ALWAYS talk about calories in vs calories out, and to HIT YOUR MACROS. Do you honestly think I'm just saying that to make myself look good? No, it's for a reason. MACROS MATTER. Your protein count and your fat count MATTER. Why is this is so difficult to understand?

Bcatt I know you are in your own little world over there always contradicting people, but ya know there are people on this forum that know what they are talking about. Alot of us have been there, and have watched not only our own transformations but alot of other people that are dedicated. We know what works and what doesn't.

Are people's ego's really in the way now? I mean seriously.

I go by the national standards. I don't read one study and think it's just proved something because it's findings contradict the national standards. There are thousands of people doing research, studying and comparing others research, analysing past and present results to detemine what it all means. They spend their lives doing it and stake their reputations on their advice. So, I choose to follow thier advice here in my own little world.

I don't know if I agree with anything else you've said, but I agree with this. :drinker: