I'm confused weight lifting/cardio/muscle question...

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  • nsblue
    nsblue Posts: 331 Member
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    Well I know I am not knowlegeable in muscle building by any means, but I know what I have done is working for me.
    Since Feb 25th of this year I have been walking to get my cardio...eating 1200 most days and different times 600-800 cal by direction of my doc. I now am on 600-800 cal for 4 weeks. I now have 196.7 pounds off. (and with what i lost before that date a total of 316.7 pounds.
    I have lifted 8lb weights daily..only 2 sets of 20 of bicept curls, tricept extensions, and dumbell lifts...also used 2.5lbs weights on each wrist when walking. My shoulders are forming and bicepts have "popped up" ... IMO they have been increasing some by doing this in deficit.
  • Dave198lbs
    Dave198lbs Posts: 8,810 Member
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    OMG STFU, this thread is still going? What are you, a bunch of 12 year olds? Disagreements, they happen. No one is changing anyone else's mind here, so just move on! Your penises are all the same size as they were before this thread started, I promise.

    Run along now, the grown-ups are talking.

    In circles.




    also, BWAHAHAHAHAHHAAA

    no offense to the debaters but this is damn funny!
  • Helloitsdan
    Helloitsdan Posts: 5,564 Member
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    MAGIC!!!

    I just want to know why you are so quick to believe what a random person on the internet says over centuries of scientific fact.

    I think the term you're looking for is "Cognitive Dissonance"
    LOL!!!
    This made my night!
  • Jeff92se
    Jeff92se Posts: 3,369 Member
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    You posted images of him. Are you trying to imply that those pictures show him as being overfat? If he's in a bodybuilding competition, you can guarantee his body fat % is below 10. Also, I believe you were the one who first threw out the 10% number.

    I posted pictures of him to illustrate before/after while on a specific diet. I also mentioned his weight before/after.

    You mentioned 10% as some dviding line.

    I even went to Norton's websdite and he advocates bulking on a surplus. If that's your sepcific goal. But it's interesting to see he advocates not getting too fat while bulking. But this is a bit off topic.

    From his results and from the answers to my questions, he appeared to gained a slight amount of muscle while at a calorie deficit. I specially asked him. I don't' think he as trying specifically to do that. But it seems to be one of the results.

    You seem to be interested in this subject right up until it requires you to actually ask him about it.
  • tigersword
    tigersword Posts: 8,059 Member
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    You're the only one going on and on about him. I'm speaking of general science, not story from a guy on the internet.
  • Helloitsdan
    Helloitsdan Posts: 5,564 Member
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    I'm with the other guy on this!
    MAGIC!
  • Jeff92se
    Jeff92se Posts: 3,369 Member
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    You're the only one going on and on about him. I'm speaking of general science, not story from a guy on the internet.

    Sure. I think he's the exception. As mentioned from the article that Ronswanson used as evidence.
  • zipnguyen
    zipnguyen Posts: 990 Member
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    Ok, so I've been reading about the muscle not increasing when eating a deficit, and that when you lift you burn fat which makes your existing muscles more visible (in essence toning up, due to visibility of muscle). Does that mean the only way that I'll actually make my muscles bigger, or that I'll be able to lift more, or do more reps is by not eating a caloric deficit?

    I've been lifting now for only about 3 weeks (3x lifting a week full body routine in my blog, and 2x a week cardio 30-45 minutes of recumbent bike and HIIT running). I'm not expecting results over night, and it took me about a week to hone in on what my rep weight should be. I'm shooting for 8 reps, 3 sets of a higher weight to make bigger muscles to burn more calories through existance. I've gotten a ton of info from a lot of my friends, and I understand what they're saying, I guess I'm just looking for clarification on the increase in rep weight while eating a deficit.

    Thanks in advance!

    wow Jax - quite a thread you started. I know it's old and pretty much dead, but oh lord it's a long thread and I don't even know if you got your answer or not. :bigsmile:
  • snookumss
    snookumss Posts: 1,451 Member
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    bump :)
  • zipnguyen
    zipnguyen Posts: 990 Member
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    You can build muscle at deficit.

    Only if you're
    Overweight
    New to training
    or regaining after a long break from training.


    Mine was a long 6-8 year break from intense training to a more off again and on again training whilst eating the same as if I "was" training intensely. But I have to clarify it was more "off" than "on" :wink:
  • zipnguyen
    zipnguyen Posts: 990 Member
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    Jeff92se and RonSwanson66 need to work out their sexual tension.

    ^^^^^^ that was hilarious :laugh:
  • zipnguyen
    zipnguyen Posts: 990 Member
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    You repeat yourself but don't address any of the points I bring up. Might as well put your hands over your ears and scream the same thing over and over again

    You want to find out once and for all? Hop into that thread and ask the exact same things you just mentioned here. Convince him he's doing it wrong and I''ll be convinced right along with him. Deal?

    Learn to read.

    Just because he CLAIMS to be in a caloric deficit, that doesn't mean he IS. What part of that did you fail to understand???

    That's very true...
  • zipnguyen
    zipnguyen Posts: 990 Member
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    You repeat yourself but don't address any of the points I bring up. Might as well put your hands over your ears and scream the same thing over and over again

    You want to find out once and for all? Hop into that thread and ask the exact same things you just mentioned here. Convince him he's doing it wrong and I''ll be convinced right along with him. Deal?

    Learn to read.

    Just because he CLAIMS to be in a caloric deficit, that doesn't mean he IS. What part of that did you fail to understand???

    Learn to read. Why not ASK him yourself?

    Do you think he's flat out lying?(why would he do that?) Or miscalculting his calories? (seems to be keeping a pretty strict log)


    and I eat the same or similar foods every damn day :grumble:
  • zipnguyen
    zipnguyen Posts: 990 Member
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    Math is a very clear victor in this situation. You CANNOT physically gain MASS while consuming a DEFICIT of calories vs expenditure. It's one of the fundamental laws of physics. You CAN engorge existing muscles, reduce the fat around them, and other biological effects that can give the ILLUSION of added mass, but it is quite simply physically impossible to build something out of nothing. It's like trying to build a pile of coal in the middle of a fire. Unless you pile more coal on than the fire can consume, it just keeps burning it up.

    If someone claims to have added muscle mass while consuming a deficit of calories, they are not correct. Whether they are lying or simply uninformed/misinformed is another discussion.

    Not lying... Probably misinformed. I have a Ph.D. In finance and not certifications in nutrition nor have degrees in that field. So for chrimeny sakes no new thread is needed.
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
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    How do you build muscle while losing fat on a caloric deficit diet?

    The excess energy comes from using the stored fat for your energy needs, and the protein intake for muscle building.
    So you might picture it this way. You are deficit by 500 cal/day, but because of your fat burning to supply most energy needs, while your muscles get the best of everything, you are like 750 cal/day from the point of view of your fat systems. Made up figures BTW, but that's the point, it's not zero-sum gain within the system of your body. You can get your muscles what they want to grow, you just make sure your fat loses out more.
    It's not like all your energy needs are taken care of by what you eat.

    An already lean muscular body type would be difficult/impossible, not probably the majority using this site - who are here to lose weight, dare I say fat weight.

    Studies you want, sure, here are a few. If a weight lifter, might enjoy a site that might be called home.

    http://www.musclehack.com/how-to-build-muscle-and-lose-fat-at-the-same-time/

    http://www.exrx.net/FatLoss/DietExStudy.html

    http://www.exrx.net/FatLoss/WTCalLBWStudy.html

    http://www.exrx.net/FatLoss/WT&End.html

    Each of those synopsis pages has the study at the bottom.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez/12077732?dopt=Abstract&holding=f1000,f1000m,isrctn
    Thus, we conclude that a carbohydrate-restricted diet resulted in a significant reduction in fat mass and a concomitant increase in lean body mass in normal-weight men, which may be partially mediated by the reduction in circulating insulin concentrations.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez/9417152?dopt=Abstract&holding=f1000,f1000m,isrctn

    Are these overweight folks, new to weight lifting? Of course!

    But if you lost 10 lbs weight, and 13 lbs was fat, and you gained 3lbs lean body weight, that ain't water and it ain't bone.

    But I'm sorry about bringing this up again - who exactly thinks this site is inhabited by weight lifters? Might be a few after they lost weight and moved on to other goals, but lets be real about when that question is asked on this site.

    good grief.
  • zipnguyen
    zipnguyen Posts: 990 Member
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    Jeff92se and RonSwanson66 need to work out their sexual tension.
    :)


    @jsuaccounting - hilarious wasn't it?
  • zipnguyen
    zipnguyen Posts: 990 Member
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    As stated, noobie lifters can make muscle gains on a deficit because their muscles are completely untrained and easy to build. You will also get rapid strength gains (assuming you are training properly) compared to that of someone with trained muscles. Enjoy it while it lasts! I am personally still experiencing noob gains I think - my measurements and bf% are shrinking while I stay the same weight (muscle building very slowly).

    In general, though, you must eat a caloric surplus to build muscle, that is correct. Otherwise, where is your body going to get the material and energy to create entirely new matter? Out of thin air? :P


    SugarBine is right about newbie lifters. I am not new to lifting though. Nutrition on the other hand I've just barely nailed down a few years back.
  • zipnguyen
    zipnguyen Posts: 990 Member
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    Self reported as in what? Logs, scales, pictures, history, calorie history?

    Are you serious? Do you understand the difference between self-reported and objectively observed data?

    Have you ever taken a science class?

    Seriously? Why haven't you jumped into that guy's thread and tell he's full of crap??? Tell him to take a science class right?

    I assume his training is based on Layne Norton's advice. Which as you probably have ignored:
    currently working on my PhD at university of Illinois specializing in skeletal muscle protein metabolism. The purpose of this site is to provide information about bodybuilding and also to provide information about myself

    If you are implying that his training is based on flying blind, it's not. It's also backed up by the article I just posted.

    But I love the nosensical sematics batlle. Like your less than whitty quips really quantify anything resembling a debatable point.

    He does mention a bulking session coming up. I'll assume he'll go into a carefully planned calorie surplus then. BUT it doesn't discount what he just accomplished and the methods he did to achieve them.

    Uh Jeff, I believe Layne finished his Ph.D. So it should be Dr. Norton technically speaking. :wink:
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
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    In general, though, you must eat a caloric surplus to build muscle, that is correct. Otherwise, where is your body going to get the material and energy to create entirely new matter? Out of thin air? :P

    I love this theory of how can the body build muscle if you are taking in less calories than it needs? Get real folks. And this quote used was merely the nice concise way of saying it, so it was used over the others.

    Lets think about this for a minute. With that theory, then how exactly can anyone live on a calorie deficit at all? Your body is rebuilding cells all the time, growing hair (maybe), nails, replacing skin.

    There are new things being built ALL THE TIME in your body on a calorie deficit diet.

    HOW? Because you are hopefully eating/exercising in a way that you are using your extra fat stores for energy use, while the new stuff you take in is used for all the normal functions of the body.

    Building muscle at a deficit is NO DIFFERENT. You just need the excess fat such that the body doesn't feel threatened by it being used for energy, while the protein you take in is used to build muscle.

    And you don't have to be obese for that to work. But the closer you get to bodies fail safe for fat storage, the more careful you have to be so it doesn't start keeping the fat and using the food you eat.
  • zipnguyen
    zipnguyen Posts: 990 Member
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    How do you build muscle while losing fat on a caloric deficit diet?

    The excess energy comes from using the stored fat for your energy needs, and the protein intake for muscle building.
    So you might picture it this way. You are deficit by 500 cal/day, but because of your fat burning to supply most energy needs, while your muscles get the best of everything, you are like 750 cal/day from the point of view of your fat systems. Made up figures BTW, but that's the point, it's not zero-sum gain within the system of your body. You can get your muscles what they want to grow, you just make sure your fat loses out more.
    It's not like all your energy needs are taken care of by what you eat.

    An already lean muscular body type would be difficult/impossible, not probably the majority using this site - who are here to lose weight, dare I say fat weight.

    Studies you want, sure, here are a few. If a weight lifter, might enjoy a site that might be called home.

    http://www.musclehack.com/how-to-build-muscle-and-lose-fat-at-the-same-time/

    http://www.exrx.net/FatLoss/DietExStudy.html

    http://www.exrx.net/FatLoss/WTCalLBWStudy.html

    http://www.exrx.net/FatLoss/WT&End.html

    Each of those synopsis pages has the study at the bottom.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez/12077732?dopt=Abstract&holding=f1000,f1000m,isrctn
    Thus, we conclude that a carbohydrate-restricted diet resulted in a significant reduction in fat mass and a concomitant increase in lean body mass in normal-weight men, which may be partially mediated by the reduction in circulating insulin concentrations.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez/9417152?dopt=Abstract&holding=f1000,f1000m,isrctn

    Are these overweight folks, new to weight lifting? Of course!

    But if you lost 10 lbs weight, and 13 lbs was fat, and you gained 3lbs lean body weight, that ain't water and it ain't bone.

    But I'm sorry about bringing this up again - who exactly thinks this site is inhabited by weight lifters? Might be a few after they lost weight and moved on to other goals, but lets be real about when that question is asked on this site.

    good grief.

    High-fiving heybales right now, don't know if we connected though...:laugh:

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