Teacher Criticisms...(rant)

VegesaurusRex

you act like teachers don't already do this. most do. private tutoring on your own time is common. preparing for more than one class is common. this is not something new and innovative.

what teachers fight against are students who *choose* not to come to extra tutoring sessions because they would rather be texting their friends at lunch, fail a class because the *chose* not to complete any work, then whine to mommy and daddy about their *deserved* poor grade, who then have them come barreling in accusing you of not being available, singling out their dear heart, being unfair and wanting them to fail.

I hear you. I told you my solution to the problem. In my Latin class, those who didn't want to do the work to keep up were asked to leave. I gave tests. I flunked people. That is the only answer to the problem. However, you owe it to yourself to alert the parents when you see this coming. When I went to school, if I had ever come home with a note from my teacher saying I was a screw up, I would have been physically beaten. If you notify the parents and they don't care either, then c'est la vie. Their little darling flunks.

And PLEASE don't say you are not allowed to flunk anyone. Others have said that on this board, and I believe they believe it is true. However, I know a very good calculus teacher who has no problem flunking kids even though she is "not supposed to." She says there is a huge amount of paperwork involved, but she does it anyway. Eventually she got the reputation that if you take her course, you better want to work.

sure, there are some teachers who do a lousy job, just as in any profession, but it's the minority. we hardly need to watch a movie to know what you are talking about. and just because you have watched a movie hardly means that you know what you are talking about.

Please if you want to attack my ideas, feel free to do so. Do not attack me, saying I am not a professional teacher so I don't know what I am talking about. I have two kids that I and my wife homeschooled. My son, as I have said is a first year law student at age 19, the youngest student ever admitted to that law school. My daughter at age 16 has already earned her associates degree from Community College. She is presently taking more courses at Community College since we do not want to send her off to live in dorms until she is at least 17. She, bytheway, is working on her second novel.

I think I have some idea of what works in education.

as i said in my original post, if you haven't stood in front of a class of 20 to 30 students and taught, you really have no idea. business and capitalism be damned.

Oh, but I have. Both young kids and adults. I enjoy it. It is fun,and I wish I were doing it now.

VegesaurusRex

It's not so black and white. There is so much wrong on so many levels. SO many parents don't do their part, and So many teachers don't do there's. I'm in and out of different classrooms every day, I see many excellent teachers, and I see many horrible teachers.
To me, it's not really a matter of who's to blame. The fact is that as a nation, we are failing our students. And something different needs to be done.

I have two graduated, one graduates this year and one next year. If I had to do it again, no way in hell would my kids be in this school system.

I pulled my kids out of public school and successfully homeschooled all of them, while working a full-time job. Even the NEA estimates that actual instruction is only 20% of a teacher's day; management and administration is the other 80%. It's not the fault of individual teachers... most are dedicated, caring people. Our education system is flawed at the very premise. There is no repairing it as it is - it needs to be completely dismantled.

Boy, do I agree with you. Congratulations on your successful homeschooling. When we were homeschooling, we never had classes more than three hours per day, usually stopping at Noon. Of course there were days when we had scheduled field trips, or in the case of my homeschooling Latin class, a Saturday morning class was involved. We used the Well Trained Mind model, and it was great. Too bad the public schools don't use this for their brighter kids.

The biggest difference between homeschooling and either a public or private schooling is that in homeschooling you can pay attention to individual deficits and strengths. The public schools could do this under a different model, but they do not at present. Like I said before, kids are individuals, not beans in a bag.

Bytheway, the best way to treat kids as individuals when you have to teach a large number of them is ability grouping. This is strongly opposed by the NEA affiliate groups that I know of. Ability grouping allows you to have a large number of kids in your class while at the same time teaching at close to the exact level of ability of everyone there. This is so logical and efficient, it is unbelieveable that a special interest group can derail it. This was the system when I went to public school and it worked beautifully. Back then you had the Accelerated Group, College Group, Business Group, General Group, and Technical School (for auto mechanics, plumbers, etc) Each group rigidly segregated. And either Uncle Sam or the Reform Schools took care of the flunkies. The system worked and it was great. There was no reason ever to change it.

VegesaurusRex

I was a biology/phsyical science high school teacher here in the State of Flori-duh. Its not necessarily the teachers that are the problem its more of the Board of Education. No child left behind is a joke, it should be abolished. If a kid is 16 and is only taking learning as a joke and is more of a hands on guy, then he should be allowed to drop out. Secondly I also blame the parents. So many parents dont take part in there kids education. They expect the schools do everything.

Here in Florida, the Superintendent might last 4 to 8 years try to change the system, the look to get into politics. Then another Superintendent is hired and says I have a new path to increase learning. The cycle continues and continues.

Home schooling is okay but my big issue with it is that there are alot of errors in books and unless you are a professional in the field, you will not realize what you are reading is wrong and teach it and that can be a big issue with homeschooling. Then again there are plenty of errors in textbooks and teachers dont necessarily find them either.

I have a BS in Biology so if i see an error I can figure it out. I do not have a degree in education. I know plenty of hardworking teachers who put so much of their own money into it and dont get any rate of return on it except personal accomplishment when they actually see a student go above and beyond

Good points! I am a homeschool Dad and I do not feel competent to teach biology. Yet that is what my daughter wants to major in. Solution: she takes all her bio courses at the local community college. We gradually integrated her into the community college system, starting at age 10 with a digital photography course. Then she took French. Then remedial math (it wasn't remedial for her - it was her first course outside of homeschool. Same with remedial English - as parents we had no idea what MLA format was so we couldn't teach it. She took a large variety of courses and by the beginning of her 16th year, last August, she had earned enough credits for her Associates degree, although we held off having her graduate, because the next step is to live in a dorm. She is no genius, but she is off the scale for creative writing, and extremely good at natural sciences.

VegesaurusRex

First off, I am a teacher.

I teach in a community/technological college. I see the product of the American education system and all I can say is that if I worked on a production line and put out that kind of a product, I would be fired.

I enjoy teaching older students because they recognize the value of spelling and grammar as well as making a study schedule. They work hard and expect a lot from themselves.

The younger group, for the most part, have no clue what a study schedule is, expect to not have homework, can't spell, have no concept of capitalizing the first word of a sentence or using punctuation, and can't do simple math without a calculator. Additionally, they have no research skills, believe any of the Wiki sites are suitable for research papers, copy and paste without citations, and then wonder why I gave them an 'F' on their paper.

I have to re-teach every student who comes out of schools these days. I have to have them bring in calendars and create a study schedule. I have to explain to them how to take notes, how to do assignments, and how to study for tests. I still have students that will ask me what is on the tests because they can't seem to grasp an understanding of what is important and what isn't important, even when I stand up and say, "Now this is important, so pay attention."

They want every test to be a multiple choice test. They panic when they have to write out a paragraph for short answer essay. Half the time I have to find an interpreter to read their printing. They don't know how to write in cursive. Those that do write must be going on to be doctors because I sometimes have to ask who the paper belongs to or what it says.

They call me at all hours of the day, and sometimes at night, because everything is an 'emergency'. They can't follow the syllabus. Most don't hand in assignments on time and some even insist that the assignments are optional according to the school. If they were optional, would I have assigned them points and included the points in the final point count?

Few students coming out of school have logic or reasoning abilities. They can't read well enough to understand the material that is presented to them. Simple words stump them, so you can imagine what larger words associated with Anatomy and Physiology do to them. They can't form complete sentences and half their sentences make no sense.

I wouldn't worry so much if this was just one or two students coming out of highschool. Unfortunately, this has been about 95% of the students coming out of highschool. That's another thing: I put the number of points that they get correct on their test and they can't figure out the percentage that they got on the test. I have to do it for them!!

What people don't realize is that the ACT, PSAT, and SAT (tests used for college placement) have been dumbed-down so that the students today can get an acceptable score! Otherwise, there would only be Asian, Middle East, African, and European students in our colleges and universities.

Do I think that teachers deserve a raise? Not when they are producing the students that I have to re-teach every block.

The raises that teachers receive should be tied to how well their students do. Yes, there are students whose parents don't encourage them. Yes, there are students who don't want to crack open a book. I've had some of those as well. You motivate them. You talk with the parents and motivate them as well. If they are not interested in their child's education, then you talk to Social Service and Child Protection.

I homeschooled both my children from fifth grade on. Why? My daughter kept being passed on to the next grade even though she could not read, so I took the reins and pulled her out of school. She is an avid reader now and an electrician. My son kept getting beat up in fifth grade by a gang of girls. They didn't just beat up him, they beat up other boys as well. He ended up with a concussion and fractured ribs, so I pulled him out of school. This happened in the playground in front of playground monitors, by the way! He is now an honor student at Penn State. They both scored higher than children who went through public and private schooling on their placement tests.

We live in a society where knowledge is necessary to make a living, yet our students are not being educated well enough to prepare them well enough to make a living. They can't balance their check books, read, write, think for themselves, think logically, perform math, etc. They don't have the motivation to do anything other than what is asked of them. They need their hands held for just about everything. In Europe, adolescents are cognizant of the world and their place in it. In America, adolescents are cognizant of only themselves and what's in it for them.

I blame this on a school system who wants to make every child feel good. The every child is a winner concept is ridiculous because it makes children less motivated. Why excel if you are not going to be recognized for what you do? So every child produced will be mediocre at best and that is pretty much what I am seeing in the community colleges today.

Wow, as a teacher I am shocked half of these things even came out of your mouth. I will say I am most shocked by your lack of correct grammar. For beating up on HS grads so much you would THINK you would at least know to not end a sentence in a preposistion! You do realize we do not get to CHOOSE what we teach. It is mandated by the states. I would love to teach students to write a proper research paper with correct grammar (maybe I'll teach you one day as well). However, this is not the luxury I have in my job. While we are throwing stones, please remember you will have students who struggle more, as you teach at a community college. Students who can study for themselves and score high on college tests go to universities and state schools. You think you would at least be grateful that the students you have are looking to better themselves instead of on the streets.

Lack of correct grammar! Give me a break. Don't end a sentence with a preposition!! What nonsense. That is so passe.

The community college teacher has made lots of excellent points. Her post should be carefully looked at. (Note preposition at end.) The "remedial" couses in community colleges were a tremendous resource for our home school. They were easy, good courses that enabled my kids to integrate themselves into college, completely bypassing grade school and high school. Plus with their Associates Degree, they were able to eliminate the first two years of college, saving a ton of money which we are using and will use for graduate and professional schools. By the way, our kids did quite well with both remedial and other courses taken in community college. My son, who is in law school, graduated with honors from our state university. He finished his Associates with about a 3.5 average, graduating at age 17, and entering the university as a junior. There are dozens of home schoolers in our area who are doing or have done the same. Generally, the high school grads in community college were at the same level or lower than my kids who skipped high school. I consider that for the most part they wasted four years. Obviously they care about getting an education, or why else would they be in community college. Many of them are working multiple jobs to pay for what they should have gotten but didn't. This is shameful, and inexcusible. If teachers are not to blame for this, then who is?

rml_16

I have a BA in English literature, worked in journalism (as a reporter and editor) for several years, currently write and edit as my job and am working on writing a couple novels.

It is perfectly acceptable to end a sentence with a preposition and it is perfectly acceptable to split infinitives. Those old, archaic rules are only followed by uptight high school English teachers who have been teaching since 1960.

I would go into the history of language and why the rules existed and why they are stupid, but I don't feel like it. I'll boil it down to this: We speak English, not Latin.

ajbeans

I have a BA in English literature, worked in journalism (as a reporter and editor) for several years, currently write and edit as my job and am working on writing a couple novels.

It is perfectly acceptable to end a sentence with a preposition and it is perfectly acceptable to split infinitives. Those old, archaic rules are only followed by uptight high school English teachers who have been teaching since 1960.

I would go into the history of language and why the rules existed and why they are stupid, but I don't feel like it. I'll boil it down to this: We speak English, not Latin.

Hear, hear!

chanstriste13

I hear you. I told you my solution to the problem. In my Latin class, those who didn't want to do the work to keep up were asked to leave. I gave tests. I flunked people. That is the only answer to the problem. However, you owe it to yourself to alert the parents when you see this coming. When I went to school, if I had ever come home with a note from my teacher saying I was a screw up, I would have been physically beaten. If you notify the parents and they don't care either, then c'est la vie. Their little darling flunks.

as it doesn't seem as if you have ever taught children in a public school setting, i can see why you are so determined that this would work. unfortunately, government has money for schools directly tied into graduation rates, and when you start failing *every* student who deserves to fail, in many cases, you end up with administration breathing down your neck who in the end just change the grades as they fit - sometimes this goes all the way to the superintendent or school board. it's sad, really. i hear what you are saying about failing students. i see why high school diplomas are becoming so invaluable as school systems hand them out like candy. but you are quite mistaken to say that all of this is in the hands of individual teachers.

And PLEASE don't say you are not allowed to flunk anyone. Others have said that on this board, and I believe they believe it is true. However, I know a very good calculus teacher who has no problem flunking kids even though she is "not supposed to." She says there is a huge amount of paperwork involved, but she does it anyway. Eventually she got the reputation that if you take her course, you better want to work.

see above. unless you have been in a poor public school system grasping at straws to find money to purchase basic text books, you would have no idea. teachers are not put off by paperwork. we're put off by administration making our decisions for us.

Please if you want to attack my ideas, feel free to do so. Do not attack me, saying I am not a professional teacher so I don't know what I am talking about. I have two kids that I and my wife homeschooled. My son, as I have said is a first year law student at age 19, the youngest student ever admitted to that law school. My daughter at age 16 has already earned her associates degree from Community College. She is presently taking more courses at Community College since we do not want to send her off to live in dorms until she is at least 17. She, bytheway, is working on her second novel.

I think I have some idea of what works in education.

if you feel that this was an attack, you may need to develop a thicker skin. it was only natural to ask if you had ever taught, seeing that you seem to have all the answers but were only siting movies. also, while you are surely a professoinal teacher, you are still one of a different breed. post-graduate students, imho, don't even really count in this discussion, since they are most likely enrolled in your classes of their own accord and paying for their own education. and students being homeschoold for latin seem that they have parents very much involved and interested in their children's schooling.

you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but so am i. i think your idea of what works in education would only work for a very small percentage of privileged individuals. but that's neither here or there, really, because if there was a simple answer, the system would be fixed. and you should be very proud of your children and sing their praises, but i'm sure your results would be quite different if you were teaching 30+ chilldren who weren't your own whose only motivation to come to school was to get their free lunch because that is the only meal they receive each day.

your teaching experience sounds wonderful, but kind of in a small pond.

Oh, but I have. Both young kids and adults. I enjoy it. It is fun,and I wish I were doing it now.

same here. amazing we can see things so incredibly differently. it almost scares me.

I_give_it_2_u_str8

theres really one easy way to find out:

get rid of publicly funded education, and make it a private school system. the market will determine what your worth is.

so i guess the question is, why is public school that much different than private school? if you are a good teacher (like you say) then you will have no problem getting the kind of kids you want to teach.

chanstriste13

so i guess the question is, why is public school that much different than private school? if you are a good teacher (like you say) then you will have no problem getting the kind of kids you want to teach.

are you kidding me?

iuangina

theres really one easy way to find out:

get rid of publicly funded education, and make it a private school system. the market will determine what your worth is.

so i guess the question is, why is public school that much different than private school? if you are a good teacher (like you say) then you will have no problem getting the kind of kids you want to teach.

The difference between public school and private school is: private schools choose the type of kids that come through their doors....public school has to take whoever comes through the doors. We don't get to choose the best students with the best home lives. We also don't get to remove a student who isn't working out for our programs. It's a totally different animal.

rml_16

so i guess the question is, why is public school that much different than private school? if you are a good teacher (like you say) then you will have no problem getting the kind of kids you want to teach.

That is an absurd statement.

VegesaurusRex

I hear you. I told you my solution to the problem. In my Latin class, those who didn't want to do the work to keep up were asked to leave. I gave tests. I flunked people. That is the only answer to the problem. However, you owe it to yourself to alert the parents when you see this coming. When I went to school, if I had ever come home with a note from my teacher saying I was a screw up, I would have been physically beaten. If you notify the parents and they don't care either, then c'est la vie. Their little darling flunks.

as it doesn't seem as if you have ever taught children in a public school setting, i can see why you are so determined that this would work. unfortunately, government has money for schools directly tied into graduation rates, and when you start failing *every* student who deserves to fail, in many cases, you end up with administration breathing down your neck who in the end just change the grades as they fit - sometimes this goes all the way to the superintendent or school board. it's sad, really. i hear what you are saying about failing students. i see why high school diplomas are becoming so invaluable as school systems hand them out like candy. but you are quite mistaken to say that all of this is in the hands of individual teachers.

And PLEASE don't say you are not allowed to flunk anyone. Others have said that on this board, and I believe they believe it is true. However, I know a very good calculus teacher who has no problem flunking kids even though she is "not supposed to." She says there is a huge amount of paperwork involved, but she does it anyway. Eventually she got the reputation that if you take her course, you better want to work.

see above. unless you have been in a poor public school system grasping at straws to find money to purchase basic text books, you would have no idea. teachers are not put off by paperwork. we're put off by administration making our decisions for us.

Please if you want to attack my ideas, feel free to do so. Do not attack me, saying I am not a professional teacher so I don't know what I am talking about. I have two kids that I and my wife homeschooled. My son, as I have said is a first year law student at age 19, the youngest student ever admitted to that law school. My daughter at age 16 has already earned her associates degree from Community College. She is presently taking more courses at Community College since we do not want to send her off to live in dorms until she is at least 17. She, bytheway, is working on her second novel.

I think I have some idea of what works in education.

if you feel that this was an attack, you may need to develop a thicker skin. it was only natural to ask if you had ever taught, seeing that you seem to have all the answers but were only siting movies. also, while you are surely a professoinal teacher, you are still one of a different breed. post-graduate students, imho, don't even really count in this discussion, since they are most likely enrolled in your classes of their own accord and paying for their own education. and students being homeschoold for latin seem that they have parents very much involved and interested in their children's schooling.

you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but so am i. i think your idea of what works in education would only work for a very small percentage of privileged individuals. but that's neither here or there, really, because if there was a simple answer, the system would be fixed. and you should be very proud of your children and sing their praises, but i'm sure your results would be quite different if you were teaching 30+ chilldren who weren't your own whose only motivation to come to school was to get their free lunch because that is the only meal they receive each day.

your teaching experience sounds wonderful, but kind of in a small pond.

Oh, but I have. Both young kids and adults. I enjoy it. It is fun,and I wish I were doing it now.

same here. amazing we can see things so incredibly differently. it almost scares me.

We do see things differently, and I kind of wish I could wrap my mind around your point of view, but our experiences are so radically different, I can't. I am very seriously thinking of writing a book about my homeschooling eperiences. (One of our local homeschoolers already did - I think it's called "But What about the Prom?." ) I will certainly admit that the problems I faced educating my kids and in teaching homeschool Latin are very likely radically different from those faced by teachers in, for example, inner city schools. I have no solution to how to educate a starving, beaten down kid who lives in a neighborhood where guns and killing are normal. To be honest with you, I don't think they can be educated. I certainly don't think that if I lived in such a neighborhood, I would be interested in anything but staying alive. The only solution may be to live long enough to join the Service.

Having said that, the unfortunate conclusion is that money spent trying to educate these kids is probably wasted. Those, who despite their environment want to learn should be allowed to attend decent schools. The voucher system would probably work best. Allow them to spend their education dollars where they can get the most benefit. Those who don't care enough to exercise their voucher option, well, they got what they got.

Sadly, every progressive idea, like vouchers or ability grouping is opposed by the teachers' union. It is not a misperception that they only care about jobs and money. Education for them is an afterthoght.

chanstriste13

so i guess the question is, why is public school that much different than private school? if you are a good teacher (like you say) then you will have no problem getting the kind of kids you want to teach.

are you kidding me?

I_give_it_2_u_str8

so i guess the question is, why is public school that much different than private school? if you are a good teacher (like you say) then you will have no problem getting the kind of kids you want to teach.

are you kidding me?

hey, im just bringing up a point here - i have no quarrel with you. in fact my SO is a teacher. heres the facts:

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2011/10/assessing-the-compensation-of-public-school-teachers#_ftn3

have a read, and then let me know what part you're confused with.

iuangina

I hear you. I told you my solution to the problem. In my Latin class, those who didn't want to do the work to keep up were asked to leave. I gave tests. I flunked people. That is the only answer to the problem. However, you owe it to yourself to alert the parents when you see this coming. When I went to school, if I had ever come home with a note from my teacher saying I was a screw up, I would have been physically beaten. If you notify the parents and they don't care either, then c'est la vie. Their little darling flunks.

as it doesn't seem as if you have ever taught children in a public school setting, i can see why you are so determined that this would work. unfortunately, government has money for schools directly tied into graduation rates, and when you start failing *every* student who deserves to fail, in many cases, you end up with administration breathing down your neck who in the end just change the grades as they fit - sometimes this goes all the way to the superintendent or school board. it's sad, really. i hear what you are saying about failing students. i see why high school diplomas are becoming so invaluable as school systems hand them out like candy. but you are quite mistaken to say that all of this is in the hands of individual teachers.

And PLEASE don't say you are not allowed to flunk anyone. Others have said that on this board, and I believe they believe it is true. However, I know a very good calculus teacher who has no problem flunking kids even though she is "not supposed to." She says there is a huge amount of paperwork involved, but she does it anyway. Eventually she got the reputation that if you take her course, you better want to work.

see above. unless you have been in a poor public school system grasping at straws to find money to purchase basic text books, you would have no idea. teachers are not put off by paperwork. we're put off by administration making our decisions for us.

Please if you want to attack my ideas, feel free to do so. Do not attack me, saying I am not a professional teacher so I don't know what I am talking about. I have two kids that I and my wife homeschooled. My son, as I have said is a first year law student at age 19, the youngest student ever admitted to that law school. My daughter at age 16 has already earned her associates degree from Community College. She is presently taking more courses at Community College since we do not want to send her off to live in dorms until she is at least 17. She, bytheway, is working on her second novel.

I think I have some idea of what works in education.

if you feel that this was an attack, you may need to develop a thicker skin. it was only natural to ask if you had ever taught, seeing that you seem to have all the answers but were only siting movies. also, while you are surely a professoinal teacher, you are still one of a different breed. post-graduate students, imho, don't even really count in this discussion, since they are most likely enrolled in your classes of their own accord and paying for their own education. and students being homeschoold for latin seem that they have parents very much involved and interested in their children's schooling.

you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but so am i. i think your idea of what works in education would only work for a very small percentage of privileged individuals. but that's neither here or there, really, because if there was a simple answer, the system would be fixed. and you should be very proud of your children and sing their praises, but i'm sure your results would be quite different if you were teaching 30+ chilldren who weren't your own whose only motivation to come to school was to get their free lunch because that is the only meal they receive each day.

your teaching experience sounds wonderful, but kind of in a small pond.

Oh, but I have. Both young kids and adults. I enjoy it. It is fun,and I wish I were doing it now.

same here. amazing we can see things so incredibly differently. it almost scares me.

We do see things differently, and I kind of wish I could wrap my mind around your point of view, but our experiences are so radically different, I can't. I am very seriously thinking of writing a book about my homeschooling eperiences. (One of our local homeschoolers already did - I think it's called "But What about the Prom?." ) I will certainly admit that the problems I faced educating my kids and in teaching homeschool Latin are very likely radically different from those faced by teachers in, for example, inner city schools. I have no solution to how to educate a starving, beaten down kid who lives in a neighborhood where guns and killing are normal. To be honest with you, I don't think they can be educated. I certainly don't think that if I lived in such a neighborhood, I would be interested in anything but staying alive. The only solution may be to live long enough to join the Service.

Having said that, the unfortunate conclusion is that money spent trying to educate these kids is probably wasted. Those, who despite their environment want to learn should be allowed to attend decent schools. The voucher system would probably work best. Allow them to spend their education dollars where they can get the most benefit. Those who don't care enough to exercise their voucher option, well, they got what they got.

Sadly, every progressive idea, like vouchers or ability grouping is opposed by the teachers' union. It is not a misperception that they only care about jobs and money. Education for them is an afterthoght.

Really?!?!?!?!?!? WTH, Kids that live in bad neighborhoods can't be educated? Get a clue. Some of the most motivated kids I've ever seen have come from the worst situations.

BTW, teachers' unions are not the biggest part of the problem here. It's the way education is funded. The schools in the depressed areas get the smallest amount of money and thus have the fewest programs. The rich stay rich and the poor stay poor. That's how our system is designed.

You really think that private schools won't raise their tutition to keep the voucher kids out???? come on

I_give_it_2_u_str8

theres really one easy way to find out:

get rid of publicly funded education, and make it a private school system. the market will determine what your worth is.

so i guess the question is, why is public school that much different than private school? if you are a good teacher (like you say) then you will have no problem getting the kind of kids you want to teach.

The difference between public school and private school is: private schools choose the type of kids that come through their doors....public school has to take whoever comes through the doors. We don't get to choose the best students with the best home lives. We also don't get to remove a student who isn't working out for our programs. It's a totally different animal.

so if you dont like the public school teaching environment, and believe your value is higher - than you can teach at private school, no?

VegesaurusRex

Really?!?!?!?!?!? WTH, Kids that live in bad neighborhoods can't be educated? Get a clue. Some of the most motivated kids I've ever seen have come from the worst situations.

Actually, that was the message of STAND AND DELIVER. I have no experience teaching that population. I guess my question is then, what is the problem. In your previous post you said you couldn't get to choose your students and that most of them come to school only to get a hot meal. Now you are saying they are some of the most motivated? Which is it?

BTW, teachers' unions are not the biggest part of the problem here. It's the way education is funded. The schools in the depressed areas get the smallest amount of money and thus have the fewest programs. The rich stay rich and the poor stay poor. That's how our system is designed.

That is certainly not true in Connecticut. In Hartford, a poor district, the last time I looked the average amount spent per student was about $13k. In my town which is upscale, the average amount spent is about $9k The state pours tons of money in to Hartford. So do the Feds. However, the more money they pour in, the worse the situation is.



You really think that private schools won't raise their tutition to keep the vocher kids out???? come on


No, they won't many of the private schools in the vacinity of Hartford already offer free tuition to some disadvantaged kids. If there were actually vouchers, they could afford to take a lot more.

Oh, I see now that there were two different people on this subject. I thought it was the same one.

chanstriste13

so i guess the question is, why is public school that much different than private school? if you are a good teacher (like you say) then you will have no problem getting the kind of kids you want to teach.

are you kidding me?

hey, im just bringing up a point here - i have no quarrel with you. in fact my SO is a teacher. heres the facts:

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2011/10/assessing-the-compensation-of-public-school-teachers#_ftn3

have a read, and then let me know what part you're confused with.

you already posted this article.

your 'solution' is wrong on a lot of levels. public school is not a sparring match for the best students. we get who we get.

if you took the staff of a renowned private school or a very uppercrust public school and transplanted them to a low socioeconomic school, and vice versa, testing scores and the general makeup of those schools would stay exactly the same, because of the students there. by your theory, all the 'good' teachers from the rich schools would now be 'bad' teachers, and all of the 'bad' teachers from the poor schools would now be 'good'. it is simply not that simple.

the 'good' teachers are the ones who work with those students who live in poverty and have crack addict/prostitute mothers and never give up on them despite that their test scores are always crap. any teacher interested in teaching *only* the highest level learners should not be in the public school setting.

I_give_it_2_u_str8

so i guess the question is, why is public school that much different than private school? if you are a good teacher (like you say) then you will have no problem getting the kind of kids you want to teach.

are you kidding me?

hey, im just bringing up a point here - i have no quarrel with you. in fact my SO is a teacher. heres the facts:

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2011/10/assessing-the-compensation-of-public-school-teachers#_ftn3

have a read, and then let me know what part you're confused with.

you already posted this article.

your 'solution' is wrong on a lot of levels. public school is not a sparring match for the best students. we get who we get.

if you took the staff of a renowned private school or a very uppercrust public school and transplanted them to a low socioeconomic school, and vice versa, testing scores and the general makeup of those schools would stay exactly the same, because of the students there. by your theory, all the 'good' teachers from the rich schools would now be 'bad' teachers, and all of the 'bad' teachers from the poor schools would now be 'good'. it is simply not that simple.

the 'good' teachers are the ones who work with those students who live in poverty and have crack addict/prostitute mothers and never give up on them despite that their test scores are always crap. any teacher interested in teaching *only* the highest level learners should not be in the public school setting.

someone else posted the article, and i thought it was interesting that you conveniently overlooked it.

why would someone with more credentials be teaching in a 'low socioeconomic school' ? thats like making the CEO of Apple teach grade 10 computers. total miss-allocation of value. youre probably right tho' that they private school teachers wouldnt make much of a difference - but its not because they're not good teachers its because the students dont want to learn. so maybe we have a problem of forcing some students to learn about crap they have no problem learning. why teach violin to a student that wants to learn how to fix cars?

iuangina

theres really one easy way to find out:

get rid of publicly funded education, and make it a private school system. the market will determine what your worth is.

so i guess the question is, why is public school that much different than private school? if you are a good teacher (like you say) then you will have no problem getting the kind of kids you want to teach.

The difference between public school and private school is: private schools choose the type of kids that come through their doors....public school has to take whoever comes through the doors. We don't get to choose the best students with the best home lives. We also don't get to remove a student who isn't working out for our programs. It's a totally different animal.

so if you dont like the public school teaching environment, and believe your value is higher - than you can teach at private school, no?

Actually, I make more money as a public school teacher than I would at a private school. I love my environment and the students I teach or I wouldn't be doing it. I'm a licensed attorney who chooses to teach because I love it.

I_give_it_2_u_str8

theres really one easy way to find out:

get rid of publicly funded education, and make it a private school system. the market will determine what your worth is.

so i guess the question is, why is public school that much different than private school? if you are a good teacher (like you say) then you will have no problem getting the kind of kids you want to teach.

The difference between public school and private school is: private schools choose the type of kids that come through their doors....public school has to take whoever comes through the doors. We don't get to choose the best students with the best home lives. We also don't get to remove a student who isn't working out for our programs. It's a totally different animal.

so if you dont like the public school teaching environment, and believe your value is higher - than you can teach at private school, no?

Actually, I make more money as a public school teacher than I would at a private school. I love my environment and the students I teach or I wouldn't be doing it. I'm a licensed attorney who chooses to teach because I love it.

so you're getting paid more b/c you dont get to choose the kids you get to teach, and you're complaining because...?

chanstriste13

so i guess the question is, why is public school that much different than private school? if you are a good teacher (like you say) then you will have no problem getting the kind of kids you want to teach.

are you kidding me?

hey, im just bringing up a point here - i have no quarrel with you. in fact my SO is a teacher. heres the facts:

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2011/10/assessing-the-compensation-of-public-school-teachers#_ftn3

have a read, and then let me know what part you're confused with.

you already posted this article.

your 'solution' is wrong on a lot of levels. public school is not a sparring match for the best students. we get who we get.

if you took the staff of a renowned private school or a very uppercrust public school and transplanted them to a low socioeconomic school, and vice versa, testing scores and the general makeup of those schools would stay exactly the same, because of the students there. by your theory, all the 'good' teachers from the rich schools would now be 'bad' teachers, and all of the 'bad' teachers from the poor schools would now be 'good'. it is simply not that simple.

the 'good' teachers are the ones who work with those students who live in poverty and have crack addict/prostitute mothers and never give up on them despite that their test scores are always crap. any teacher interested in teaching *only* the highest level learners should not be in the public school setting.

someone else posted the article, and i thought it was interesting that you conveniently overlooked it.

why would someone with more credentials be teaching in a 'low socioeconomic school' ? thats like making the CEO of Apple teach grade 10 computers. total miss-allocation of value. youre probably right tho' that they private school teachers wouldnt make much of a difference - but its not because they're not good teachers its because the students dont want to learn. so maybe we have a problem of forcing some students to learn about crap they have no problem learning. why teach violin to a student that wants to learn how to fix cars?

interesting that if private school teachers are shipped to a low income school, they are still considered good teachers. but public school teachers who are already in that situation are considered bad teachers. yikes.

there are only so many credentials to get. once you get a phd, you go teach college. but there are plenty of teachers with masters and national boards under their belts that *choose* to teach at low income schools because they want to make a difference. and most of these teachers that i know don't have beef with their students, they have beef with people with your same mindset that because they want to try and make something better, they are belittled.

as for letting students learn what they want, you need to take that argument to washington. that would be 'no child left behind', in all of its glory, that made every student college bound and took trades out of the curriculum. boo. but that is also something not in individual teacher's hands.

iuangina

I'm not complaining. I actually really like my job. My response was about the difference between the types of schools. I don't think I could handle teaching in a private school environment. I don't like working with children who feel they are entitled to everything just because of their family name.

chanstriste13

I'm not complaining. I actually really like my job. My response was about the difference between the types of schools. I don't think I could handle teaching in a private school environment. I don't like working with children who feel they are entitled to everything just because of their family name.

well said!

DannyMussels

From my experiences, everyone thinks they work very hard, are underpaid and they're the best worker at their job.

This applies to every field of work on earth, and most on mars.

VegesaurusRex

Really?!?!?!?!?!? WTH, Kids that live in bad neighborhoods can't be educated? Get a clue. Some of the most motivated kids I've ever seen have come from the worst situations.

Okay, we have an interesting situation here we have two teachers, one of whom made the above comment. The other said that kids in poor neighborhoods are only in school to get a hot meal.

Now I do not know which one is right and which one is wrong, but it would seem they both can't be right. Unfortunately, when I brought this up both teachers avoided the subject and went on to something else. I would be delighted to have an answer as to which picture is accurate. And if there are highly motivated inner city kids, why are the records of districts like Hartford so dismal. Also, if this were true, what is wrong with taking these kids out of the inner city and using vouchers to send them to good schools in the suburbs?

candykay0605

i just saw on another post the mention of teachers 'snivelling' for more money when they are not getting results. this kind of thing burns just burns me up.

i can't stand it when people who have never stuck a toe in the education field go on about how teachers are lazy, get paid for nothing in the summer, and are only babysitting anyways, so how hard can it really be?

then you have the people who want to run education like a business, and if you don't get the results, you don't get the pay. if education was a business, teachers could fire and hire the students based on their performance. but no. we don't get that option.

we teach *everyone*, no matter what. even if they only show up to school once a week. even if their parents cuss us out on the phone and tell us that *their* child is *our* problem when they are at school. even if a student consistently refuses to lift a finger because they just do not care. and we are still held accountable for a student's testing scores even if they were expelled from school for 150 days out of 180.

there are always going to be teachers who drop the ball and don't do their part, but the majority of us never give up on those students who have already given up on themselves. we keep hoping that one day they might open their book, write something down and learn something.

boo to people that criticize the general educator populace without ever having taught. if you haven't stood in front of a class of 20 to 30 students and taught, you really have no idea. :grumble:

BUMP LIKE LOVE whatever else i can say about this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I would like these people to TRY and live off of a parapro's pay or even teacher's pay (if you cant tell im a parapro) and another FYI I am going to school full time on the side AND work another job!!! I was going to be a teacher but after 5 years of seeing how much teachers have to go through I have changed my degree to do somthing so i can still work with children but in a different settin!!!!

loopybec2002

so i guess the question is, why is public school that much different than private school? if you are a good teacher (like you say) then you will have no problem getting the kind of kids you want to teach.

are you kidding me?

This statement actually makes me really angry. I teach the children at the bottom of the scale that when they arrive at our school at 8-9yrs old they cannot read they leave our school with GCSE grades normally E and above what happens to these children they don't get taught because they are not the best of the best? We have some amazing teachers at our school who put in the hours and are here teaching these students because they love to make a HUGH difference. These children would be in jail if they didn't have the distraction of school. They need help and support and thats what they get. I am actually fuming that you actually suggest shutting down pulic education so there are only good students and good teachers AND WHAT ABOUT THE REST OF THE STUDENTS WHO DON'T MATCH UP TO YOUR STANDARDS?????

chanstriste13

I hear you. I told you my solution to the problem. In my Latin class, those who didn't want to do the work to keep up were asked to leave. I gave tests. I flunked people. That is the only answer to the problem. However, you owe it to yourself to alert the parents when you see this coming. When I went to school, if I had ever come home with a note from my teacher saying I was a screw up, I would have been physically beaten. If you notify the parents and they don't care either, then c'est la vie. Their little darling flunks.

as it doesn't seem as if you have ever taught children in a public school setting, i can see why you are so determined that this would work. unfortunately, government has money for schools directly tied into graduation rates, and when you start failing *every* student who deserves to fail, in many cases, you end up with administration breathing down your neck who in the end just change the grades as they fit - sometimes this goes all the way to the superintendent or school board. it's sad, really. i hear what you are saying about failing students. i see why high school diplomas are becoming so invaluable as school systems hand them out like candy. but you are quite mistaken to say that all of this is in the hands of individual teachers.

And PLEASE don't say you are not allowed to flunk anyone. Others have said that on this board, and I believe they believe it is true. However, I know a very good calculus teacher who has no problem flunking kids even though she is "not supposed to." She says there is a huge amount of paperwork involved, but she does it anyway. Eventually she got the reputation that if you take her course, you better want to work.

see above. unless you have been in a poor public school system grasping at straws to find money to purchase basic text books, you would have no idea. teachers are not put off by paperwork. we're put off by administration making our decisions for us.

Please if you want to attack my ideas, feel free to do so. Do not attack me, saying I am not a professional teacher so I don't know what I am talking about. I have two kids that I and my wife homeschooled. My son, as I have said is a first year law student at age 19, the youngest student ever admitted to that law school. My daughter at age 16 has already earned her associates degree from Community College. She is presently taking more courses at Community College since we do not want to send her off to live in dorms until she is at least 17. She, bytheway, is working on her second novel.

I think I have some idea of what works in education.

if you feel that this was an attack, you may need to develop a thicker skin. it was only natural to ask if you had ever taught, seeing that you seem to have all the answers but were only siting movies. also, while you are surely a professoinal teacher, you are still one of a different breed. post-graduate students, imho, don't even really count in this discussion, since they are most likely enrolled in your classes of their own accord and paying for their own education. and students being homeschoold for latin seem that they have parents very much involved and interested in their children's schooling.

you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but so am i. i think your idea of what works in education would only work for a very small percentage of privileged individuals. but that's neither here or there, really, because if there was a simple answer, the system would be fixed. and you should be very proud of your children and sing their praises, but i'm sure your results would be quite different if you were teaching 30+ chilldren who weren't your own whose only motivation to come to school was to get their free lunch because that is the only meal they receive each day.

your teaching experience sounds wonderful, but kind of in a small pond.

Oh, but I have. Both young kids and adults. I enjoy it. It is fun,and I wish I were doing it now.

same here. amazing we can see things so incredibly differently. it almost scares me.

We do see things differently, and I kind of wish I could wrap my mind around your point of view, but our experiences are so radically different, I can't. I am very seriously thinking of writing a book about my homeschooling eperiences. (One of our local homeschoolers already did - I think it's called "But What about the Prom?." ) I will certainly admit that the problems I faced educating my kids and in teaching homeschool Latin are very likely radically different from those faced by teachers in, for example, inner city schools. I have no solution to how to educate a starving, beaten down kid who lives in a neighborhood where guns and killing are normal. To be honest with you, I don't think they can be educated. I certainly don't think that if I lived in such a neighborhood, I would be interested in anything but staying alive. The only solution may be to live long enough to join the Service.

Having said that, the unfortunate conclusion is that money spent trying to educate these kids is probably wasted. Those, who despite their environment want to learn should be allowed to attend decent schools. The voucher system would probably work best. Allow them to spend their education dollars where they can get the most benefit. Those who don't care enough to exercise their voucher option, well, they got what they got.

Sadly, every progressive idea, like vouchers or ability grouping is opposed by the teachers' union. It is not a misperception that they only care about jobs and money. Education for them is an afterthoght.

i see where you're going with this, but it's not like all the students that don't want to learn can just stay home. it's illegal.

and there are some really intelligent, hardworking, kind and caring teachers that knowingly take on those students, even though they know there is no chance in hell that their classes will be making 'expected growth' on the end of course tests that will be reported to the state and then sent back in form letter, graphs and charts stating what a crap teacher they are.

and this was the whole point of my original post - *not* pay, which i'm not really sure how that ever really entered this thread. so many people grew up in a charmed location with upper crust everything, and now they are adults thinking that every school in the country is like that. they are sorely mistaken, and can't even begin to imagine some of the conditions that these students live in and that teacher professionals work at everyday to try and make it a little better, only to be crapped on by their administrations and given the stink eye by the general public.

it's really kind of a bummer.

I_give_it_2_u_str8

interesting that if private school teachers are shipped to a low income school, they are still considered good teachers. but public school teachers who are already in that situation are considered bad teachers. yikes.

well its hard to argue that - but its very good use of a circular argument, cheers!

i never said, btw, that teachers teaching at low-income areas are bad teachers. as iuangina pointed out, its a personal choice she has made.

all im pointing out, is that, all of capitalism is about efficiency and trying to find areas of waste. your beef isnt with people like me, its with the whole system. cuz afterall, we're all packaged into tiny little boxes and sold as a package in our own rights (i work in the private consulting business, i know this all too well)- but i can easily find out what i'm worth on the market these days by looking at the surveys. publicly funded programs are a different story, and everyone and their brother has a say :P