Language Does Matter!

pastryari

I happen to think that was a joke because I have not found it to not be true at all.

So, you DO think it's true. Double negative. Woops.

Exactly. Now the intended meaning of her statement has changed. Why don't people get this?

Yes, I made a typo and now the whole world is going to end because you're on the internet and making an assumption from a typo. Hmm, what's that saying about assumptions.........

It wasn't a typo, it was a grammatical error. I make them all of the time. Humans are flawed and have room for improvement. I personally would prefer someone to point it out to me. Maybe I don't know any better. Maybe I have been using a word in the wrong way. The bottom line is that you are judged by what you say. Even in writing. You don't have to like it. In fact you can continue to be defensive about it. Although I am not sure why. I would rather grow and improve. It seems more productive that getting angry.

Haha. Are you really going to TELL me that I didn't make a typo? Is it just that you don't believe in a typo or what? Because I know that was a typo considering that I'M the one who wrote it. Thanks. I am not angry, just really disgusted with how far people are willing to go to make themselves feel better and superior.

Fine. A typo. The point is that no one is pointing it out to feel superior. I feel superior for other reasons. It is being pointed out because like it or not you are judged on the way you communicate. I have also chosen not to hire people based on poor communication skills. In my line of work we submit reports to various government agencies around the world. If English is their second language (agency) they can not always understand grammatical error and typos. I don't have time to translate the reports for my German collegues.

But where you people are wrong is in judging people for their language skills on the internet, which has NOTHING to do with work. There are tons of people who can communicate just fine at work or in "real" life but don't choose to be so picky when they are on the internet. You're making assumptions that people who don't take the time to look over what they wrote to be sure it's correct when posting on forums/internet are not capable of doing so in the real world. THAT is my point.

Im sorry, where exactly did I say that?

Since I wrote a lot, I'm not too sure what you're refering to? Where did you say what?

Where did I mention anything about judging people based on what they write on the internet? I did agree with the blog in that language is important and I stand by that. And since this post is specifically about grammar it would apply here. And I don't recall judging anyone. Simply stating that we are judged based on communication skills. That is a simple fact. Not liking the truth doesn't change it. You seem to have taken my general statement very personally.

Because you were using a typo as an example. If you were not talking about writing on the internet then a typo should never have been used as an example. As I said in a previous post somewhere, we all have our own opinions. Mine never said that language is unimportant. Now I'm back to work. See ya, folks.]

Just_Dot

I personally don't feel that my "unnecessary grammar lesson" was out of line, or context. There might be some people that truly have a hard time remembering and if that helps, well...yay!

As far as "people like me" being the downfall of the polite world as we know it (yes, I know this isn't what was said...I'm too lazy to sift through 3 pages and see where I was quoted) and how a certain poster here is going to teach her children to be empathetic, and kind, and rainbows and glitter...well, you are more than welcome to your opinion. I happen to know that not only do I teach my own children kindness and empathy but I try to instill this in my students, as well as giving them a rock-solid education.

Since we're generalizing, it's people like "you" that pull out the "it's just the internet...it doesn't matter!" card and helping perpetuate the idea that we will just have to deal with people not knowing how to write and speak properly...it's the internet yo...get used to it!

Later "you" mentioned, "of course, in a resume or paper, my grammar is sparkly and fresh!" I made my original comments before that was even mentioned...but I digress. Of course we would hope that in an academic or professional setting, grammar, spelling, etc. would be correct, however, if we don't expect students to write like this now, when will they have the practice time *to* write correctly?

In the shiny, happy world of MFP, people come here for different reasons. Some, like me, come for the calorie tracker, stay for the friends; some come for exercise, menu, nutrition advice; others come to tout the benefits of Tae Bo. In the Chit-Chat section, as long as I can read a post, I'm good. However, if someone is either asking for advice--or giving it--you bet your sweet bippy that I don't read/don't put much stock into what's being said if there are numerous typos, spelling errors, grammatical errors, and so on. I guess for me, this falls into the category of a "professional" writing--despite the fact that it's been written by some imaginary person that lives in my computer. I understand that not everyone thinks of it that way, but why not? Once it's here...it's for-frelling-ever...do you want people in the future to think we were imbeciles?

Of course, there are exceptions to every rule--I have friends from other countries or friends with learning issues where it's virtually impossible for them to write correctly. I'm cool with that. But, for people to come on here and spouting that it's okay to type like you're ignorant is not only insulting to the people that legitimately can't, it's insulting to the people that take pride in what they write. I don't think I'm "better" than anyone because I'm a decent writer, or that I know how to spell, or I can, for the most part, correctly apply grammar rules. But I do take pride in my skills, much like a runner takes pride in a PR time, or a weight lifter takes pride in increasing weight. I won't apologize for it. :flowerforyou:

/rant

erikblock

I'm an English/Communications/Writing instructor, and I tell my students this all the time. I always hear the complaint that they shouldn't have to take this class because writing isn't going to be a major part of their professional future. My response: In many situations in life, your writing will precede you, and you will be judged according to it. It's not necessarily FAIR...but it's the way it is. Whenever someone is confronted with something you have written before they have met you face-to-face, they will make judgments about who you are as a person--your intelligence, your education, your level of motivation and dedication--based on your writing.

And then I ask them: Think about a time that you read something that someone had written and thought to yourself, "Wow...this person must be really stupid if they can't even spell <blank> correctly or put together a proper sentence (or whatever the situation may have been."

Do people's judgments of you on an online forum REALLY matter? Is a misspelled word or improperly punctuated sentence on MFP or Facebook going to cause you to lose out on a job promotion? No. But why not foster the habit of communicating as clearly, properly, and effectively as possible, so that you're able to do so more easily when it really DOES matter?

_binary_jester_

Some people just suck at grammar and spelling. Some people don't. I don't see the big deal and I'm tired of people always complaining about it! There are better things to spend your time worrying about.

Nothing wrong with raising the bar.

...and for people who think this is an "attack"...please. Can I move to the land of rainbows and unicorns also?

Ever consider how rants and judgments like these might feel to people who truly do struggle with grammar and spelling and might be self-conscious about it?

Thank you for making my point. Say hello to the unicorn for me.

All this soft and squishy stuff is nuts. Gosh should I say this just in case someone is offended? If I worried about that...well I guess I would never post.

Like I stated earlier, there is nothing wrong with attempting to raise the bar in terms of discourse. Since this site is based on self improvement, I simply fail to grasp why this topic should fall by the wayside.

Is it overdone? Perhaps. Does that make it any less valid? Absolutely not.

Okay. No sense in arguing with you. Some people lack the ability to put them selves in another person's shoes for even just a moment.
Let's try not to pretend that the judgmental "I'm better than you" blogs and internet rants are making a difference or raising the bar. It's nothing more than a platform for making yourself feel better compared to others over trivial nonsense.

Or...Or...we can just revel in our mediocrity! So much better because everyone will be alike and no one will be all judgmental and stuff because that's bad.
The way I see it is, if one person says, "You know what, she is right and maybe I'll work on that a little" then the battle is won.

Contrarian

I do struggle with grammar and spelling. I'm not sure why. English was my best subject as a child, but as an adult, I find it slipping away, which is kind of scary. Plus, I am super sensitive about it.

I do read quite a bit. Always have. It's weird. I will be typing and suddenly I will forget how to spell a very simple word and I have to google it. This is coming from the 4th grade class spelling bee champion. I guess maybe technology has contributed to it. Almost everything has spell check or auto correct.

It's true. Having spell check as a crutch is a great tool, but it really doesn't force us to retain it. I think our brains just don't think it's necessary to hold on to information that we can easily have handed to us again.

TDGee

I have noticed in this thread a tendency by some to defend a tenuous position. :huh: I really hope you aren't in charge of anything important. Reminds me of Custer at Little Bighorn.

what do you mean by "a tendency by some to defend a tenuous position"? Wordy phrasing, but doesn't really say much at all.

How about boneheadedly sticking to a poor argument? I was trying to be polite.

IpuffyheartHeelsinthegym

if it's not already, that blog should be #1. I'm sorry, not to be insensitive, but sometimes trying to figure out what someone is saying is ridiculous.

I would agree technology plays a slight role in this, but that should not be an excuse. We're not texting each other on here....

Contrarian

Some people just suck at grammar and spelling. Some people don't. I don't see the big deal and I'm tired of people always complaining about it! There are better things to spend your time worrying about.

Nothing wrong with raising the bar.

...and for people who think this is an "attack"...please. Can I move to the land of rainbows and unicorns also?

Ever consider how rants and judgments like these might feel to people who truly do struggle with grammar and spelling and might be self-conscious about it?

Thank you for making my point. Say hello to the unicorn for me.

All this soft and squishy stuff is nuts. Gosh should I say this just in case someone is offended? If I worried about that...well I guess I would never post.

Like I stated earlier, there is nothing wrong with attempting to raise the bar in terms of discourse. Since this site is based on self improvement, I simply fail to grasp why this topic should fall by the wayside.

Is it overdone? Perhaps. Does that make it any less valid? Absolutely not.

Okay. No sense in arguing with you. Some people lack the ability to put them selves in another person's shoes for even just a moment.
Let's try not to pretend that the judgmental "I'm better than you" blogs and internet rants are making a difference or raising the bar. It's nothing more than a platform for making yourself feel better compared to others over trivial nonsense.

The blog wasn't an attempt to make me feel like I'm better than anyone. This inability to communicate really concerns me. I think it's important.

TDGee

I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask, but does anyone here know how to make a Pine Cone Bird Feeder?

As you wish:

What you'll need:

Pine cone
Paper plate
Butter knife
Smooth peanut butter
Birdseed
Ribbon or yarn
Scissors


How to make it:

Cut a long length of yarn or ribbon to hang the bird feeder.
Tie the ribbon in a knot around the pine cone near the top (about 3 sections down).
Tie a knot in the end of the ribbon.
Use the knife to get a large clump of peanut butter on the paper plate.
Use the knife to spread peanut butter inside the pine cone and around the edges.
Sprinkle the birdseed over the pine cone.
Roll the pine cone in the birdseed that is on the plate.
Hang the bird feeder on the tree.
Enjoy watching the birds eat their treat!

k8blujay2

I'm an ESL teacher, and it SHOCKS me that native speakers mistake you're/your and their/there/they're.

Sometimes it's a genuine typo that spell check nor the author catches. At least that's usually the case for me, because I sometimes type so fast that I'm on to the next thought before I finish typing.

In general though, I blame chatrooms of the 90's and lack of character spaces in text messages (though that's not so much the case anymore).

honeysprinkles

I personally don't feel that my "unnecessary grammar lesson" was out of line, or context. There might be some people that truly have a hard time remembering and if that helps, well...yay!

As far as "people like me" being the downfall of the polite world as we know it (yes, I know this isn't what was said...I'm too lazy to sift through 3 pages and see where I was quoted) and how a certain poster here is going to teach her children to be empathetic, and kind, and rainbows and glitter...well, you are more than welcome to your opinion. I happen to know that not only do I teach my own children kindness and empathy but I try to instill this in my students, as well as giving them a rock-solid education.

Since we're generalizing, it's people like "you" that pull out the "it's just the internet...it doesn't matter!" card and helping perpetuate the idea that we will just have to deal with people not knowing how to write and speak properly...it's the internet yo...get used to it!

Later "you" mentioned, "of course, in a resume or paper, my grammar is sparkly and fresh!" I made my original comments before that was even mentioned...but I digress. Of course we would hope that in an academic or professional setting, grammar, spelling, etc. would be correct, however, if we don't expect students to write like this now, when will they have the practice time *to* write correctly?

In the shiny, happy world of MFP, people come here for different reasons. Some, like me, come for the calorie tracker, stay for the friends; some come for exercise, menu, nutrition advice; others come to tout the benefits of Tae Bo. In the Chit-Chat section, as long as I can read a post, I'm good. However, if someone is either asking for advice--or giving it--you bet your sweet bippy that I don't read/don't put much stock into what's being said if there are numerous typos, spelling errors, grammatical errors, and so on. I guess for me, this falls into the category of a "professional" writing--despite the fact that it's been written by some imaginary person that lives in my computer. I understand that not everyone thinks of it that way, but why not? Once it's here...it's for-frelling-ever...do you want people in the future to think we were imbeciles?

Of course, there are exceptions to every rule--I have friends from other countries or friends with learning issues where it's virtually impossible for them to write correctly. I'm cool with that. But, for people to come on here and spouting that it's okay to type like you're ignorant is not only insulting to the people that legitimately can't, it's insulting to the people that take pride in what they write. I don't think I'm "better" than anyone because I'm a decent writer, or that I know how to spell, or I can, for the most part, correctly apply grammar rules. But I do take pride in my skills, much like a runner takes pride in a PR time, or a weight lifter takes pride in increasing weight. I won't apologize for it. :flowerforyou:

/rant

I think I'm the "you" you're referencing. I always use proper grammar. In texts, on forums, in class, doesn't matter. My argument isn't that grammar and spelling aren't important (probably the 5th time I've said that now...).

On the internet, I don't care if people "typ liike dis" or forego capitalization and shorten you to u...that's a personal choice and it doesn't mean that they can't type correctly. But again, that's not my argument. I can only repeat it so many times and clearly some of you just don't get it so there's no use.

I'm majoring in early childhood education, of course I value education and I plan on doing my best to make sure that every child I teach gets the best education that they can. However, I recognize that it is harder for some than others and some people will always struggle with grammar, so I refuse to judge people and feel better about myself just because something comes easier to me than it does others.

Anyways, I'm feeling like a broken record now so either you get it or you don't. Whatever.

MrsCon40

I have noticed in this thread a tendency by some to defend a tenuous position. :huh: I really hope you aren't in charge of anything important. Reminds me of Custer at Little Bighorn.

what do you mean by "a tendency by some to defend a tenuous position"? Wordy phrasing, but doesn't really say much at all.

How about boneheadedly sticking to a poor argument? I was trying to be polite.

She just didn't understand your words, Ted. Now that you've rephrased it, it may be more easily disgested.

:flowerforyou:

honeysprinkles

Some people just suck at grammar and spelling. Some people don't. I don't see the big deal and I'm tired of people always complaining about it! There are better things to spend your time worrying about.

Nothing wrong with raising the bar.

...and for people who think this is an "attack"...please. Can I move to the land of rainbows and unicorns also?

Ever consider how rants and judgments like these might feel to people who truly do struggle with grammar and spelling and might be self-conscious about it?

Thank you for making my point. Say hello to the unicorn for me.

All this soft and squishy stuff is nuts. Gosh should I say this just in case someone is offended? If I worried about that...well I guess I would never post.

Like I stated earlier, there is nothing wrong with attempting to raise the bar in terms of discourse. Since this site is based on self improvement, I simply fail to grasp why this topic should fall by the wayside.

Is it overdone? Perhaps. Does that make it any less valid? Absolutely not.

Okay. No sense in arguing with you. Some people lack the ability to put them selves in another person's shoes for even just a moment.
Let's try not to pretend that the judgmental "I'm better than you" blogs and internet rants are making a difference or raising the bar. It's nothing more than a platform for making yourself feel better compared to others over trivial nonsense.

Or...Or...we can just revel in our mediocrity! So much better because everyone will be alike and no one will be all judgmental and stuff because that's bad.
The way I see it is, if one person says, "You know what, she is right and maybe I'll work on that a little" then the battle is won.

It's not as simple as just deciding to "work on it a little bit" for some. That's my point.

honeysprinkles

Some people just suck at grammar and spelling. Some people don't. I don't see the big deal and I'm tired of people always complaining about it! There are better things to spend your time worrying about.

Nothing wrong with raising the bar.

...and for people who think this is an "attack"...please. Can I move to the land of rainbows and unicorns also?

Ever consider how rants and judgments like these might feel to people who truly do struggle with grammar and spelling and might be self-conscious about it?

Thank you for making my point. Say hello to the unicorn for me.

All this soft and squishy stuff is nuts. Gosh should I say this just in case someone is offended? If I worried about that...well I guess I would never post.

Like I stated earlier, there is nothing wrong with attempting to raise the bar in terms of discourse. Since this site is based on self improvement, I simply fail to grasp why this topic should fall by the wayside.

Is it overdone? Perhaps. Does that make it any less valid? Absolutely not.

Okay. No sense in arguing with you. Some people lack the ability to put them selves in another person's shoes for even just a moment.
Let's try not to pretend that the judgmental "I'm better than you" blogs and internet rants are making a difference or raising the bar. It's nothing more than a platform for making yourself feel better compared to others over trivial nonsense.

The blog wasn't an attempt to make me feel like I'm better than anyone. This inability to communicate really concerns me. I think it's important.

You're right, it is important. I'm not even referencing the blog so much as I am some of the attitudes and opinions expressed by others in this post.

fguillory

But I dun inglish gewd. Dun judge mi fer mai bad spelin evirybodie maeks slite mstakes,

_binary_jester_

I'm majoring in early childhood education, of course I value education and I plan on doing my best to make sure that every child I teach gets the best education that they can.

Irony admission of the day. Forgive me if I am happy my child is not being "educated" by you.

However, I recognize that it is harder for some than others and some people will always struggle with grammar, so I refuse to judge people and feel better about myself just because something comes easier to me than it does others.

There was a post here once. It was completely unreadable. There were words in a semblance of a sentence structure and forget about punctuation.

I did not "judge" her, but imagine how many more responses she would have received if she could communicate more effectively.

honeysprinkles

I have noticed in this thread a tendency by some to defend a tenuous position. :huh: I really hope you aren't in charge of anything important. Reminds me of Custer at Little Bighorn.

what do you mean by "a tendency by some to defend a tenuous position"? Wordy phrasing, but doesn't really say much at all.

How about boneheadedly sticking to a poor argument? I was trying to be polite.

She just didn't understand your words, Ted. Now that you've rephrased it, it may be more easily disgested.

:flowerforyou:

Don't be so condescending. I know what his words meant, another good example of overly complicated phrasing without any actual purpose.

kennethmgreen

But where you people are wrong is in judging people for their language skills on the internet, which has NOTHING to do with work. There are tons of people who can communicate just fine at work or in "real" life but don't choose to be so picky when they are on the internet. You're making assumptions that people who don't take the time to look over what they wrote to be sure it's correct when posting on forums/internet are not capable of doing so in the real world. THAT is my point.

But that is exactly the point of the blog post. It is simply pointing out that - fair or not - people DO judge you based on how you present yourself. And on the Internet, one of the only ways of presenting yourself is through written text. So the blog was asking "why not put in the effort?" It's not about assuming those who don't take the time to strive for correctness online are not capable of doing so in the real world. Quite the contrary, the point is that for people who are capable of writing correctly, maybe you should consider doing so on the Internet. Not to make anyone feel superior. But because you could be unfairly judged.

IpuffyheartHeelsinthegym

Language evolves, deal with it.

So, the evolving of language means we should not try to keep up and have some comprehension of it and how to communicate properly? Or, did I take that the wrong way?

scs143

I don't know about any of you, but when I see someone write things like "wat's dat?" or "u kno", I tend to think they are of a lesser intelligence or very very young. Either way, it's not okay.

After reading her blog, I think the lesson is that it is important to try to be correct. There are people who have good reasons for not spelling correctly or for using the incorrect words. However, for those of us who don't have those issues, why not attempt to use proper language and spell correctly?

It couldn't hurt.

_Timmeh_

Not my quote, but I do like it.

" I once heard it claimed that a language forms the fundamental fabric of a society, enabling clear communication between members of that society. Any erosion of that fabric, it was claimed, would tend to erode the society"

gurlondrums

I can understand the defense; my mother has poor spelling and grammar, and I still love her. Regardless, I work in a medical office, and when a resume comes across my desk and the person hoping to work at my office has poor spelling, grammar, punctuation, etc., I tend to pass over their resume quickly. Sorry but, if you can't spell basic English words, I can't have you misspelling medical terms when they're complicated as well. Hyper/hypo, all the itis'es, etc. My doctors need to understand the information you are providing to them.

I don't care (much) about perfect spelling and grammar on an internet forum, write your thoughts however you want. I will say this though, I do tend to skip alot of posts that I'm sure would be interesting discussions had the original poster not butchered what they were trying to get across. I read through these forums for fun. Why do I have to decipher what you meant and hope I got it right? There was a girl last year who posted about "cellulitis" on her thighs. You don't have cellulitis, you have cellulite. There's a difference between a minor imperfection and an actual medical condition.

End rant.

katherinemm31

I'm also an ESOL teacher and a college writing instructor. Nothing shocks me. There are problems in our educational system, but outside of those issues, we need to consider the way we communicate and use language, which is changing because of technology. Spell check, for example, has made poor spellers (like me) appear better at it than we are. Grammar check can do the same. However, these tools often are not used in informal settings where, generally, proper grammar, usage and spelling aren't deemed important. That said, as I tell my students, if you want to get your point across in writing and have someone understand what you are trying to say, you need to do it clearly and consider your audience.

Incidentally, my ESOL students are some of the hardest working, most respectful students I have ever had--including the ones I teach in the local jail!

TDGee

I have noticed in this thread a tendency by some to defend a tenuous position. :huh: I really hope you aren't in charge of anything important. Reminds me of Custer at Little Bighorn.

what do you mean by "a tendency by some to defend a tenuous position"? Wordy phrasing, but doesn't really say much at all.

How about boneheadedly sticking to a poor argument? I was trying to be polite.

She just didn't understand your words, Ted. Now that you've rephrased it, it may be more easily disgested.

:flowerforyou:

Don't be so condescending. I know what his words meant, another good example of overly complicated phrasing without any actual purpose.

Please accept my apologies for any offense. I can now see that you just like to argue.

IpuffyheartHeelsinthegym

I don't know about any of you, but when I see someone write things like "wat's dat?" or "u kno", I tend to think they are of a lesser intelligence or very very young.

Sad to say, but it is the first thought in my head when I come across things of that nature.

Fit_Canuck

English is my second language and the one word that has always thrown me for a loop is " Through" , I always thought it was spelled "Thru"

honeysprinkles

I'm majoring in early childhood education, of course I value education and I plan on doing my best to make sure that every child I teach gets the best education that they can.

Irony admission of the day. Forgive me if I am happy my child is not being "educated" by you.

However, I recognize that it is harder for some than others and some people will always struggle with grammar, so I refuse to judge people and feel better about myself just because something comes easier to me than it does others.

There was a post here once. It was completely unreadable. There were words in a semblance of a sentence structure and forget about punctuation.

I did not "judge" her, but imagine how many more responses she would have received if she could communicate more effectively.

There is nothing ironic about valuing education yet realizing that every student has different strengths and weaknesses and that some subjects will naturally come much easier than others for students.

noiva

It's true. To some people, grammar, language, and spelling come naturally. To some people, like my dyslexic dad, they don't. And that's okay...he is great at many other things. But what people don't understand is that when you don't even make an effort to use correct grammar and to spell a word correctly, you look like you are lazy. It makes it hard for you to succeed in a business setting, because people can't even take you seriously.

Come on. We live in a spell check generation. At least make an effort. Proofreading is your friend. At the very least, sound it out.

honeysprinkles

I can understand the defense; my mother has poor spelling and grammar, and I still love her. Regardless, I work in a medical office, and when a resume comes across my desk and the person hoping to work at my office has poor spelling, grammar, punctuation, etc., I tend to pass over their resume quickly. Sorry but, if you can't spell basic English words, I can't have you misspelling medical terms when they're complicated as well. Hyper/hypo, all the itis'es, etc. My doctors need to understand the information you are providing to them.

I don't care (much) about perfect spelling and grammar on an internet forum, write your thoughts however you want. I will say this though, I do tend to skip alot of posts that I'm sure would be interesting discussions had the original poster not butchered what they were trying to get across. I read through these forums for fun. Why do I have to decipher what you meant and hope I got it right? There was a girl last year who posted about "cellulitis" on her thighs. You don't have cellulitis, you have cellulite. There's a difference between a minor imperfection and an actual medical condition.

End rant.

I absolutely agree with you. It's the judgment and self-righteousness in some of the other arguments that bothers me.

andygettinfitt

i can understand, but most of my friends now I suck at spelling and gramer, but not by choice. I have learning disablities which make it hard for me to write and to understand.