You Can Gain Muscle On A Calorie Deficit!!
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You think he was "overfat" in those pictures?0
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You think he was "overfat" in those pictures?
Trololololol!
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Lyle didn't define "overfat' in the article and so I ahve no criteria to say. I am looking at the March 12 picture and the guy has some serious body fat under that Tshirt. Especially given his height. I'm suggesting at the begining of his training he did get energy from fat to build muscle. At what ratio I have no idea but that's not the question stated in the topic.
Based on Lyle's article, the answer is yes, you can gain muscle on a calories deficit. You are going to be more likely to do that, the higher your body fat is and less likely to do that as your body fat drops. I don't recall if the OP ever stated his BF% at the start of his training or not but the question isn't specific to him. He is using his own experience as the proof source. I'm not offering an opinion either way and I have not yet read the links back on page one. I intend to. Lyle McDonald is someone whose opinions I have come to respect and learn from. I don't always agree with him 100% but I respect his experience, research and knowledge. I haven't really decided what I think. Reading with an open mind and learning.0 -
All of that has been said more than once in this thread. That's the problem, no one defines what over fat is. Therefore cannot really give a general number when the process begins or stops. I'd say, gaining mass depends on the availability of fuel in excess of your daily calorie requirements. As your BF lowers, the fuel has to come from somewhere else, ie.. food calories. But when the process of not being able to use fat as fuel / needs to use food calories for fuel isn't known.0
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All of that has been said more than once in this thread. That's the problem, no one defines what over fat is. Therefore cannot really give a general number when the process begins or stops. I'd say, gaining mass depends on the availability of fuel in excess of your daily calorie requirements. As your BF lowers, the fuel has to come from somewhere else, ie.. food calories. But when the process of not being able to use fat as fuel / needs to use food calories for fuel isn't known.
You are right it isn't. So what's your point? The statement that has been debated is whether or not, not at what point. Just giving a point of view and a perspective from an expert source as many others have done. Not sure what about that irritates you.0 -
You think he was "overfat" in those pictures?
Trololololol!
Thinkin you might be right!0 -
[/quote] wow! fantastic muscle building..great work--you look amazing!Here are pics of me over the past year while losing 74 lbs and gaining plenty of lean muscle. I was what I would call " Skinny Fat" I had very little lean muscle before I started to work out. If I didnt lift weights while dieting I wouldnt be were I am today. And im 42 years old!
March-2011 (- 10/12lbs)
May-2011
Aug-2011
Oct-2011
Jan-2012
Present
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All of that has been said more than once in this thread. That's the problem, no one defines what over fat is. Therefore cannot really give a general number when the process begins or stops. I'd say, gaining mass depends on the availability of fuel in excess of your daily calorie requirements. As your BF lowers, the fuel has to come from somewhere else, ie.. food calories. But when the process of not being able to use fat as fuel / needs to use food calories for fuel isn't known.
You are right it isn't. So what's your point? The statement that has been debated is whether or not, not at what point. Just giving a point of view and a perspective from an expert source as many others have done. Not sure what about that irritates you.
My point? What's yours? I just said you repeated not only what was said but Lyle's reference also.0 -
Lmao
Sometimes gravity just sucks!!0 -
All i want to say is dude lOoks awesone. And ive been working on the same. Again great job.0
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All of that has been said more than once in this thread. That's the problem, no one defines what over fat is. Therefore cannot really give a general number when the process begins or stops. I'd say, gaining mass depends on the availability of fuel in excess of your daily calorie requirements. As your BF lowers, the fuel has to come from somewhere else, ie.. food calories. But when the process of not being able to use fat as fuel / needs to use food calories for fuel isn't known.
You are right it isn't. So what's your point? The statement that has been debated is whether or not, not at what point. Just giving a point of view and a perspective from an expert source as many others have done. Not sure what about that irritates you.
My point? What's yours? I just said you repeated not only what was said but Lyle's reference also.
Gee, I musta missed that. I just looked back through the entire thread and still didn't see it other than my post. Would you be so kind as to point it out for me?0 -
You didn't see the point you made stated already? Try looking again0
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There is always exceptions to every rule... I'm the female exception apparently because I bulk up very easily regardless of whether I'm on a calorie deficit or not. I've always been that way - I only have to look at a set of weights to start bulking up! My problem is losing the layer of fat over the top of it all!0
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No I didnt, why would I ? Below is a pic. of when I was 25, ( along with the other pics I posted) I got married at 26 and started to gain fat soon after. But at 25 I was fully grown and at the point that I wasnt going to gain any more muscle naturally. Also I am almost 6"2 with long arms and legs, if I was just under 5"10 (the height of the avg. adult male) It would be easier to see my lean muscle gains.Did you get a DEXA or body pod done before you leaned out? It doesn't look like you gained very much muscle at all, but retained your muscle and lost the fat. /shrug. FWIW, IMO You weren't skinny fat in the beginning, you had a good base underneath, you were just overweight, simple as that. As you trained the muscle you probably added some density to it, retained it, gaining definition around the muscle from losing fat, but you certainly don't look like you gained very much LM.
Congrats on your hardwork though, you look great.
Now please tell me that I wasnt "" skinny fat""
March-2011 (- 10/12lbs)
May-2011
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Dude you look great! Keep up the hard work....EFF the haters and know-it-alls!0 -
You didn't see the point you made stated already? Try looking again
Saw various version of points made including some that refelcted what I said. I didn't see Lyle's link. Still don't. If its there and I double posted it, my bad. There's been a lot a various discussion. I have no idea why my additions seems to piss you off but hey, whatever.0 -
You didn't see the point you made stated already? Try looking again
Saw various version of points made including some that refelcted what I said. I didn't see Lyle's link. Still don't. If its there and I double posted it, my bad. There's been a lot a various discussion. I have no idea why my additions seems to piss you off but hey, whatever.
Right. So what Lyle has said has been said. You don't piss me off. Probably couldn't. no worries0 -
I realized another caveat for the easier way of stating this.
You can gain muscle on a deficit with the exception of:
You are already lifting and trim.
You net below your BMR daily and do intense cardio, and do lower carb diet.
I should have realized that the auto-setting MFP goals cause that 2nd exception to happen very often.
Eating at 1200, BMR is 1600, and doing cardio 3 x week intensely for 60 min just robs the glucose stores, by the end of the several sessions, not enough glucose left to prevent muscle breakdown, no matter how much protein or weight lifting you are doing.0 -
Sorry but you don't look like you gained plenty of lean muscle. You DID lose body fat to show more "definition" of muscle. This is a misconception that many a person who isn't experienced in the field believes.Here are pics of me over the past year while losing 74 lbs and gaining plenty of lean muscle. I was what I would call " Skinny Fat" I had very little lean muscle before I started to work out. If I didnt lift weights while dieting I wouldnt be were I am today. And im 42 years old!
March-2011 (- 10/12lbs)
May-2011
Aug-2011
Oct-2011
Jan-2012
Present
It takes A LOT of hard work to put on lean muscle even while on calorie surplus. Trust what actual science research (peer reviewed not pseudoscience) has shown and don't believe the hype that many supplement companies or programs that "experts" want you to buy.
While there a few exceptions of being able to build "some" muscle on a calorie deficit, even the exceptions aren't building a significant amount that is very noticeable.
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If you're obese, it's not impossible to gain muscle on calorie deficit. However, I doubt it's 10lbs of muscle especially in just 9 weeks. It's considered excellent if you could put on 1lb of muscle a month.I wanted to start this thread because of the "" Muscle Does Not Weigh More Than Fat" thread. Reading thru it I read numerous posts that claimed that you cannot gain muscle while on a calorie deficit. Yes you can!! Please do not let these misguided comments stop you from implementing some type of lifting program while you are on your journey for a new body!! Weight training while dieting is very important because if you dont about 22% of your total weight loss will be Lean Muscle! Most people who do not lift while dieting are not happy with their body even after they reached or even surpassed their goals.
Hey! Maybe you can help me figure something out... math problem. 9 weeks ago I weight 304 and I was 48.5% body fat. Today I weighed 280.5 and I'm 40.8% body fat. I tried to ways to figure out how much fat I lost and how much muscle I gained and I don't know which is right. First I tried averaging 304 and 280.5 (292.25) and then taking 7.7% of that, which is 22.5 pounds of fat lost. Then I tried taking 48.5% of 304 (147.44) and 40.8% of 280.5 (114.44) and subtracting those two numbers, which is 33 pounds of fat lost.
The first one would be pretty close to maintaining muscle and just losing fat. But the second one would mean I had gained almost 10 pounds of muscle and lost 33 pounds of fat. Based on the fact that my clothes are fitting me more like when I weighed in the low 270s a couple of years ago when I wasn't working out much, and based on the fact that my muscles are really getting big, I'm thinking the 33 pounds of fat lost is more accurate. But I'm no good at math.
If the second one is true, you can totally gain muscle on a calorie deficit. I just did.
Anyone know how to figure this out?
Shannon
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There is always exceptions to every rule... I'm the female exception apparently because I bulk up very easily regardless of whether I'm on a calorie deficit or not. I've always been that way - I only have to look at a set of weights to start bulking up! My problem is losing the layer of fat over the top of it all!
No there's not. MEN can't do what you're claiming and unless you're a genetic abnormality you don't have the same testosterone as a man does. Even women who have PCOS, who have elevated testosterone, have much less testosterone then men do.
Your muscles swell after you lift weights. That is what you are seeing.0 -
Post broscience from Mike Mentzer.Opinion battles are always fun, but here goes in support of the OP. You're not in true caloric deficit from a global standpoint IF you have adipose tissue storing excess bodyfat. That total comes from calories harvested from reserves and those that you put in your mouth. Your body can only access so much of that reserve in any given day because it's in a bank so to speak. That weekly amount is given to be about 2 lbs give or take depending on your biology and the level of your bodyfat...it's related to the surface area of blood vessels and the capacity of the blood to access the network of fat tissue...the less fat you have the smaller that surface area is and the slower that maximum harvest rate can be. Those calories will build muscle using your protein intake and adipose tissue cataboloized to fuel other processes and carbohydrate to fuel brain activities and other cardiovascular functions. If what you put in your mouth is too low for adipose harvesting to completely balance the body's activities than NO you may not build muscle...but that caloric level suggested by MFP is programmed to NOT go that low...that's why it warns you to eat more if you complete a diary day dramatically under your guidelines.
About muscles: if you push your body beyond its capabilities, up to a certain genetic potential (yours), it will build beyond that level in anticipation of the next attack being worse. "Beyond capabilities" is subjective and by that I mean you exercise to muscular failure and then give the muscles adequate rest...look into a book by Dr. Ellington Darden at your local library called "The New High Intensity Training." What's missing in most of our routines is number 1: sufficient sleep each night and rest between exercise sessions and number 2: proper intensity, as in TO FAILURE...as in you can't complete the last rep. The lion fights once a week or so then sleeps and gets waited on by the brood but is the strongest animal in the wild. Ever see a lion on a treadmill? Doing push-ups between fights? How about 4 sets of an exercise? We're animals too and our muscles need to be proven a point and that point is they're not big enough and you can only do that by making them fail...then a week of rest so they can come back ~5% stronger. You shouldn't be working out for strength more than 15-30 minutes a week. This is a safe way to exercise on nautilus machines when slow, 5-10 second motions are used for each rep without jerking...in fact, by doing fewer sets your joints will last longer, too.
The gender complaint is also bunk...women's body's are no thermodynamic perpetual motion machines, although I think they're craftier at survival so fat may be harder to burn for many ladies since women carry an unbalanced burden on the perpetuation of our species--not sexist here, just saying that if a population can keep one man alive, he can perpetuate a species as long as many women are also around. Men are in a way disposable...it's not a good thing to be able to trim down quickly...thinner is closer to death if the food supply disappears. Women can also use the HIT workout routine without fear of bulking up because the hormones aren't there to build lots of muscle...but the benefits are there for the skeleton and connective tissue so ladies, too, should be working the muscles periodically to failure...it hurts to work out this way, but it's a burn and it's easier to get to the gym and pour yourself on the floor once every 8 days than get there 4-5 times a week and feel worn out, defeated and intimidated by the grunting fools that spend all day there posing in the mirror. Nobody needs to eat extra protein to build muscle either...need proof? Submit your urine to a lab for amino analysis. We're excreting excess every day...probably only need 30-90 grams a day depending on your size and building goals. For what it's worth...
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I don't worry about losing muscle, but then I've lost my weight slowly, 33 lbs over 3 years, and I'm trying to lose 95 more, but at this rate, it will be a while. Seriously, I am trying to do it a little faster now.
I'm a 40 something woman who builds muscle extremely easily. It's annoying and used to be embarrassing. My calves still look ridiculous and I don't really work out anymore. I think it's genetic, although my mother was petite, and not muscular at all, so I don't know where the genes come from quite honestly. Maybe from my father's side.
I believe so much of our body type is genetic, because my adult son looks like a younger version of his paternal grandfather who was NOT muscular and just a string bean. He's extremely lean, and comes by it naturally.
But anyway, I do agree, that trying to retain what you have is a good idea, if for no other reason, weight bearing exercise is also good for your bone density.0 -
1st off, congrats on your loss. 2nd, damn your body makes me wanna lol. And 3rd. I love how everyone loves to argue on forums. No im right, no im right! Shoot. I will side with you on this one!0
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Muscle will ALWAYS stick out with less fat around it. That is not an indication that muscle was built.I am lifting weights and losing weight (calorie deficit). The result? I am not only losing fat, but gaining muscle. How do I know this? Because my biceps, triceps and other muscles now stick out! I am a woman, age 46 and very happy to point out that although I am still not at my goal, I have muscles and I don't look manly!
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Did you know that you can add muscle as you gain weight without working out? If you ever look at most obese/ overweight people when they were young, they had small calves, but now sport calves that pro bodybuilder envy. Why? Well all that weight had to be carried. Calves grew because of the weight.
No I didnt, why would I ? Below is a pic. of when I was 25, ( along with the other pics I posted) I got married at 26 and started to gain fat soon after. But at 25 I was fully grown and at the point that I wasnt going to gain any more muscle naturally. Also I am almost 6"2 with long arms and legs, if I was just under 5"10 (the height of the avg. adult male) It would be easier to see my lean muscle gains.Did you get a DEXA or body pod done before you leaned out? It doesn't look like you gained very much muscle at all, but retained your muscle and lost the fat. /shrug. FWIW, IMO You weren't skinny fat in the beginning, you had a good base underneath, you were just overweight, simple as that. As you trained the muscle you probably added some density to it, retained it, gaining definition around the muscle from losing fat, but you certainly don't look like you gained very much LM.
Congrats on your hardwork though, you look great.
Now please tell me that I wasnt "" skinny fat""
March-2011 (- 10/12lbs)
May-2011
Aug-2011
Oct-2011
Jan-2012
Present
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
I once read a study where sedentary men that were given testosterone supplements (steroids) actually gained more muscle then men that were given a placebo while heavy weight training. Diet was the same in both groups, kind of amusing, really.0
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Gonna make some popcorn!0
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[/quote]Here are pics of me over the past year while losing 74 lbs and gaining plenty of lean muscle. I was what I would call " Skinny Fat" I had very little lean muscle before I started to work out. If I didnt lift weights while dieting I wouldnt be were I am today. And im 42 years old!
March-2011 (- 10/12lbs)
May-2011
Aug-2011
Oct-2011
Jan-2012
Present
You look amazing! Very well done! It just goes to show that muscle makes everyone look so much younger and generally HEALTHY!0 -
Let me say that the OP has done a great job getting into great shape. What he's achieved is tough to do and does take a lot of discipline and dedication. I'm just disagreeing with him on muscle gain.
It's obvious in photos with higher body fat, that his musculature is much improved compared to his 25 year old pics. Just reducing that bodyfat made the muscle pop.
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Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
ninerbuff, nice to see your intelligent voice of reason around these part!0
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