You Can Gain Muscle On A Calorie Deficit!!
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I think there is a general conflation here of a few different factors. I'm not a 'muscle' scientist, but a some quick reading leads me to think this is generally what's going on here.
I see a couple of people suggesting you may be able to 'tone' and 'strengthen' existing muscle, but not add new muscle while eating a calorie deficit. There are some tricky semantics and tricky biology involved here. Muscle gets bigger in two ways: hypertrophy, which is an increase in size and mass without the addition of new muscle fibers, and hyperplasia, which is an increase in size via addition of new fibers. It is possible that hypertrophy may not result in increased strength, as the additional bulk comes from tissue types not mediating contractions (scar tissue, etc).
This type of tissue can be added readily as a wound-healing process. Muscle soreness from inflammation drives cell swelling and inflammatory mediators to collect in the tissues. As the wounds heal, some scar-tissue like elements may be added, increasing bulk. Wound healing most certainly occurs when in caloric deficit, this there is no reason to suspect that this type of muscle growth can not also occur.
Hyperplasia is most commonly induced by sustained and/or intense loading of the muscles - again, microtears are healed, but also complex cell-signaling cascades are initiated that result in the division and multiplication of new muscle fibres. This is a eneregetically-expensive anabolic process, thus when calories are tight it's less likely to occur, but it's not impossible.
- In short, if you eat a caloric deficit you can certainly increase muscle bulk via hypertrophy. As compared with eating an excess, a smaller portion of the overall growth may come from the separate process of hyperplasia, but it may still occur. Just to a lesser extreme.
So in even shorter - yes, you can 'add muscle' on a caloric deficit.
And let me again iterate that this is based on a general knowledge of human physiology, but I am not, nor do I claim to be, an expert on muscles.
Nodding, yes my new Queen. I hear and obey. I don't understand, but I will follow.0 -
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I wanted to start this thread because of the "" Muscle Does Not Weigh More Than Fat" thread. Reading thru it I read numerous posts that claimed that you cannot gain muscle while on a calorie deficit. Yes you can!! Please do not let these misguided comments stop you from implementing some type of lifting program while you are on your journey for a new body!! Weight training while dieting is very important because if you dont about 22% of your total weight loss will be Lean Muscle! Most people who do not lift while dieting are not happy with their body even after they reached or even surpassed their goals.
is def. true. now what about for someone like me? im 5'2 weigh 140. ive got a bigger upper body on top(broad shoulders) and my rib cage is not a small frame. so about a med. frame and I have a smaller lower body. I do lift weights yes. BUT should I do less weight MORE reps or heavier weights?? this confuses me as: I bulk up pretty quickly on my top half. and i certainly dont want to look bulkier or like a body build type chic. I want my lower body bigger if I can make it bigger for sure tho
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If you lost inches in your waist, lifted thoughout your process, while on a defict and ended up weighing the same in the end, what would your conclusion be?
Yay!!!
Oh...you mean like how is that possible? I would probably assume it had something to do with water retention or any of the other host of things my body does without me telling it to.
In day to day life, getting accurate BF measurements is pretty difficult. I'm hesitant to take folks personal success stories (as impressive as they may be) as evidence debunking the studies I've read. Additionally there are so many things at play (water retention and digestion to name a few...I just took an epic dump, does that mean I gained muscle?)
Generally speaking, I think that the most effective gains in LBM you'll see will only come when eating at a surplus. Gains achieved at a deficit will be minimal (VERY minimal in comparison to what you could gain if eating at a surplus) and will likely only come in very specific scenarios (newbie gains, starting from a very high BF%, or starting up lifting after a long period off). As your BF% lowers, the ability to increase muscle mass on a deficit (even with small gains) becomes substantially more difficult, to the point of impossibility, as well.
When you hear a story of someone gaining 30 lbs of muscle while on a 2lb/week deficit you can't help but be skeptical. When the default answer is 'you gained muscle' when someone says 'my clothes fit a bit better but I'm the same weight!!!1!1' and that person isn't doing resistance training or getting enough protein in their diet, it's also important to level expectations.
1 Cycling cutting to maximize fat loss at the expense of some muscle loss.
2 Cycling bulking to maximize muscle gain at the expense of some fat gain.
3 Maintaining a smart lifting program through bulks and cuts to maximize muscle gains/retention respectively.
In order to most efficiently maximize LBM and minimize BF, that's really the only way to go. Sure you can do it some other way, but chances are EXTREMELY high you'll find yourself frustrated before very long, and it's a virtual guarantee that you would have had better success doing it this way.
"You can drive a car with your feet if you want to; it don't mean its a good f***ing idea!" ~Chris Rock0 -
Some light reading for later..0
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wow really no I am not skinny but I am also not fat as one of the comments stated. I am 122 pounds of lean muscle and 45 pounds of fat and still building and losing. you guys that have nasty comments must have nothing better to do with your time but cut people down.0
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Lowering body fat to reveal muscle =/= building new muscle. Most overweight and obese people actually have a lot of muscle mass, as it's needed to carry around excess weight. So, you lose weight and reveal that muscle, doesn't make it new. Just means you trained your CNS to actually use it properly.
See what I said above. You didn't build muscle, it was already there. Most strength gains actually come from training your central nervous system to use the muscle efficiently, not from raw muscle tissue.Yes you can!! I have had this stoush many times with some of the "fitness professionals" on here ......
I started off as a very unfit very obese individual - have lost 100 + lbs over 18 months - and worked my buttt off in the gym - and now that I am at about 22 % bodyfat I can actually see real proof of the muscles that I have developed over the past 18 months (all while on a calorie deficit of about 1000 calories a day - as measured with my Bodymedia)......
I am not going to win bodybuilding competitions - but the muscles are there my friend make no mistake!!
I fell into the "exceptions" category - but so does a heap of other people starting out here - it drives me crazy when the "professionals" discourage these people from lifting through their misinformation - grrr...
Very obese
First time training
I lift heavy (and seriously upping weights) - Since the beginning of the year I have increased most weights between 25% and 30%
I make sure I eat enough good quality lean protein (to feed my muscles) but more importantly to satiate my hunger....
And nobody is discouraging people from lifting by saying you don't build new tissue, lifting is encouraging to maintain muscle. People get discouraged because they believe that they should build tons of muscle by lifting weights, and get discouraged when it doesn't happen.
Actually, water weight stays pretty consistent, the more body fat you have, the lower the percentage of your weight from water. Water is mostly stored in muscle tissue, not fat.If you lost inches in your waist, lifted thoughout your process, while on a defict and ended up weighing the same in the end, what would your conclusion be?
Not going to happen on a calorie deficit except in cases already discussed above. Period.
This guy did not put on 30 lbs of muscle and simultaneously lost 30 lbs of fat.
I have absolutely no idea what I am talking about but . . .isn't the body made up more than fat and muscle? Don't you also decrease the other things that make up LBM when you lose weight? Water would be one that comes to mind, wouldn't one carry around less water in a smaller body?0 -
Actually, water weight stays pretty consistent, the more body fat you have, the lower the percentage of your weight from water. Water is mostly stored in muscle tissue, not fat.
About 3:1 ratio...for every 4 lbs of weight loss under ideal caloric restriction conditions, 3 are fat and 1 is associated water and circulatory system located in that tissue...and remember that the volume of a pound of fat tissue is bigger than a pound of water...so how does this thread end? Can we add a poll and vote to kill it?0 -
You don't lose any muscle?0
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Here we go again......Lowering body fat to reveal muscle =/= building new muscle. Most overweight and obese people actually have a lot of muscle mass, as it's needed to carry around excess weight. So, you lose weight and reveal that muscle, doesn't make it new. Just means you trained your CNS to actually use it properly./
mmmmmm - interesting concept - using the muscles in my arms, shoulders and chest to carry my weight around - last time I checked I actually used my legs to do that.......
You do not know me - you do not know what condition I was in when I started - so I am amazed that you feel you can make statements about what I had / did not have.....
There are 3 real people that do - my trainer - and two other trainers at the gym that I work out at - they have been with me since day one - know what I looked like - how weak I was - and where I am today, and every one of them will tell you that I have built muscle (and not because I pay them) but because they are pretty impressed with what I have achieved in the past 18 months....0 -
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So THAT'S what I've been doing wrong... All this time I've been using my chest, arm, and back muscles to move and support my arms and torso. How silly of me, of course my leg muscles move my arms!Here we go again......Lowering body fat to reveal muscle =/= building new muscle. Most overweight and obese people actually have a lot of muscle mass, as it's needed to carry around excess weight. So, you lose weight and reveal that muscle, doesn't make it new. Just means you trained your CNS to actually use it properly.
mmmmmm - interesting concept - using the muscles in my arms, shoulders and chest to carry my weight around - last time I checked I actually used my legs to do that.......
You do not know me - you do not know what condition I was in when I started - so I am amazed that you feel you can make statements about what I had / did not have.....
There are 3 real people that do - my trainer - and two other trainers at the gym that I work out at - they have been with me since day one - know what I looked like - how weak I was - and where I am today, and every one of them will tell you that I have built muscle (and not because I pay them) but because they are pretty impressed with what I have achieved in the past 18 months....
Again, strength gains have NOTHING to do with muscle gain. Strength comes from training your central nervous system to efficiently use your muscle mass. You can gain mass without strength, and you can gain strength without gaining mass, they are pretty mutually exclusive.0 -
No I didnt, why would I ? Below is a pic. of when I was 25, ( along with the other pics I posted) I got married at 26 and started to gain fat soon after. But at 25 I was fully grown and at the point that I wasnt going to gain any more muscle naturally. Also I am almost 6"2 with long arms and legs, if I was just under 5"10 (the height of the avg. adult male) It would be easier to see my lean muscle gains.Did you get a DEXA or body pod done before you leaned out? It doesn't look like you gained very much muscle at all, but retained your muscle and lost the fat. /shrug. FWIW, IMO You weren't skinny fat in the beginning, you had a good base underneath, you were just overweight, simple as that. As you trained the muscle you probably added some density to it, retained it, gaining definition around the muscle from losing fat, but you certainly don't look like you gained very much LM.
Congrats on your hardwork though, you look great.
Now please tell me that I wasnt "" skinny fat""
March-2011 (- 10/12lbs)
May-2011
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Oct-2011
Jan-2012
Present
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So... in 20 years, you didn't gain any muscle, just fat. And this is your evidence that you can gain muscle during deficit...
Got it.0 -
You really think you gained fat, and no muscle at all in 20 years? It doesn't work like that. When you eat at a surplus and store fat, your boy also builds muscle. You gain both fat and muscle simultaneously, usually about 75% fat and 25% muscle, without any strength training.0
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You Can Gain Muscle On A Calorie Deficit!!
that is the title of the thread.0 -
You really think you gained fat, and no muscle at all in 20 years? It doesn't work like that. When you eat at a surplus and store fat, your boy also builds muscle. You gain both fat and muscle simultaneously, usually about 75% fat and 25% muscle, without any strength training.
What you're really saying here, is that under all this boob and juice, I've got a rockin six pack? :bigsmile:0 -
You really think you gained fat, and no muscle at all in 20 years? It doesn't work like that. When you eat at a surplus and store fat, your boy also builds muscle. You gain both fat and muscle simultaneously, usually about 75% fat and 25% muscle, without any strength training.
What you're really saying here, is that under all this boob and juice, I've got a rockin six pack? :bigsmile:
Of course, everybody has the same ab muscles, they just like to hide.:drinker:0 -
You can gain strength in a calorie deficit. Gaining muscle is pretty rare, and is limited to beginners to weight lifting, and those coming back after a long break (muscle memory). For the rest of us, we strength train during deficit to maintain lean mass and maintain or increase strength.
While I agree with the spirit of what you are saying, most people here would be considered "novice" in a strength program. I still qualify as a novice even after some time in lifting. I eat at deficit, I am losing bf% and scale weight. Will that last forever? No. But it has lasted a while and would apply to most people on this site.0
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