Bye Bye Death Penalty

Marll

How does one become evil? Its either they were born evil (not their fault), they become evil because of a hard life (not their fault), they become evil because of mental illness (not their fault), or the only option left is that they spontaneously decide out of nowhere that they want to be evil. This seems ludicrous to me and why I don't believe in evil. Since I don't believe in evil, I don't believe anyone deserves to die. What I do believe is people who commit violent acts do need to be dealt with, but it needs to be done in a just and humane way.

So basically nothing is anyone's fault by that reasoning? That type of reasoning is so illogical to me that it makes my head hurt. It's the place the blame game that so many people love these days:

It's not Johnny's fault he didn't pass Math, perhaps his teacher didn't do enough
It's not Johnny's fault that he beat up that other kid in class, he has a bad home life
It's not Johnny's fault that the girl said no, he wasn't taught any better
It's not Johnny's fault he ran over that toddler while drunk, his mom was an alcoholic
It's not Johnny's fault he killed that man, he was abused as a child
It's not Johnny's fault, he ate WAY too many twinkies....


When will people accept consequences for their actions. I'm pretty sure that nobody that is on death row right now is under any illusions that what they did wasn't wrong, they know it was and did it anyway.

To some extent it is not their fault. However they still need consequences because the consequences themselves can improve the person's behavior. Plus most people can be influenced not to commit crimes just by knowing about the consequences.

Its just the extreme cases that I think people throw all logic out the window. I can't fathom the possibility that an evil person exists where its totally their fault. That doesn't mean their shouldn't be consequences to their actions, but I think hatred and revenge are the least productive ways to deal with them.

Who said hatred and revenge, it's simply culling the herd, they need to be eliminated. It's clinical, they don't and can't fit in society.

Hatred and revenge is the theme of many posters here on this thread. Anyways like I said, I disagree that they need to be eliminated simply because they are humans and the fact that they committed the crime is enough tragedy. Adding more tragedy isn't going to make anyone feel better.

It's a tragedy that they commited a crime of that magnitude only to the victim, the victim's family and likely their own family. To say it's a tragedy on their behalf that they did something so wrong, which they probably enjoyed quite a bit, and likely would do again seems a little naïve to me.

fightingdissonance

Again, considering the high cost of living in the world today, where is the money coming from to do all that??
Oh, yea, that's right, we'll do what Europe does and TAX everyone at literally 40% of their gross income. T
hat;'ll fix everything.
Blame 'society'. Blame the victim. That means you blame ME, and I apologize, I'm not taking the blame for someone's mental illness which may or may NOT be attributable to SOCIETY..

Neither are most of the people in this country. AS far as I'm concerned, the system we have is as good as it's going to get. The only thing I would alter is to NOT allow deathrow inmates 30+ years to appeal. THAT would be abolished.

I consider these men and women to be collateral damage. That is the way EVERY country operates. You only don't hear about it in your country because they're better at HIDING it from their public.

So you're against the death penalty. Can you tell me your stance on abortion?
Watch carefully what you say. You could be on the verge of being a hypocrite.....

I'm not going to engage in an extended reactionary and inflammatory debate with you. However, abortion and the death penalty are two issues that are entirely separate from each other.

Yes you are, or you wouldn't be replying to me. Death is Death is Death.

I am FOR abortion for women, I am ALSO FOR the death penalty. At least I can be consistent in my beliefs .

Nice try though, It's been fun. And you indeed revealed hypocrisy, whether or not you will admit it.

One reply (now two) does not an extended debate make. Also debates are best served through a reasoned exchange of opinion, which you seem incapable of doing.

Being pro-choice and opposing the death penalty are not mutually exclusive. They are two entirely separate issues that have zero overlap, unless of course you're uninformed and looking to advance a muddled agenda.

Nice try, yourself.

Marll

I guess because we value human life more than a dog's life. That's a good point though.

Sad part is that many people don't deserve the respect that I'd give to the dog, and the fact that the dog is much more likely to be able to be rehabilitated by the right people. These killers and rapists are less than likely to be able to be brought into such a state that they could live anywhere but a prison.

DietingMommy08

I am completely against the death penalty.

Killing somebody because they killed somebody
Pretty contradicting if you ask me.

What really irritates me is the people who are AGAINST abortion because they fell its not a womens right to kill thier unborn child but they are all for the dealth penalty. Ive heard that one far too many times.

I probably aint gonna word this right but there are a lot of ppl out there that commit crimes because they are mentally unstable and the justice system just throws them into jail instead of getting them the real help that they actually need.
I know jail cannot change somebody but maybe getting help could!? Yet, instead of getting them help people just wanna kill them.

I dont feel we as humans have the right to decide who can or cannot live. Murders or the justice system.

naku

Part of the issue with serial killers is that their mind does not understand the concept of right and wrong. There is something that just doesn't click or they are exceptional at justification.

I think they understand the concept, but something is driving them to do it anyways. Its like their urge to kill is similar to a starving person's urge to eat.

If I had a dog that had a compulsion to attack the neighborhood kids, it would be put down. I know I'll get blasted for that analogy, but I think the concept is the same. If the compulsion cannot be controlled, cannot be rehabilitated and they only face a life behind bars or in a mental institution, what is even the point?

I guess because we value human life more than a dog's life. That's a good point though.

At the same time, I highly doubt anyone would say "This happened because the dog is EVIL.". Everyone would be informed enough to understand that almost certainly the actions of the dog were not it's own fault, but the fault of the circumstances it was brought up in/treated.

grinch031

How does one become evil? Its either they were born evil (not their fault), they become evil because of a hard life (not their fault), they become evil because of mental illness (not their fault), or the only option left is that they spontaneously decide out of nowhere that they want to be evil. This seems ludicrous to me and why I don't believe in evil. Since I don't believe in evil, I don't believe anyone deserves to die. What I do believe is people who commit violent acts do need to be dealt with, but it needs to be done in a just and humane way.

So basically nothing is anyone's fault by that reasoning? That type of reasoning is so illogical to me that it makes my head hurt. It's the place the blame game that so many people love these days:

It's not Johnny's fault he didn't pass Math, perhaps his teacher didn't do enough
It's not Johnny's fault that he beat up that other kid in class, he has a bad home life
It's not Johnny's fault that the girl said no, he wasn't taught any better
It's not Johnny's fault he ran over that toddler while drunk, his mom was an alcoholic
It's not Johnny's fault he killed that man, he was abused as a child
It's not Johnny's fault, he ate WAY too many twinkies....


When will people accept consequences for their actions. I'm pretty sure that nobody that is on death row right now is under any illusions that what they did wasn't wrong, they know it was and did it anyway.

To some extent it is not their fault. However they still need consequences because the consequences themselves can improve the person's behavior. Plus most people can be influenced not to commit crimes just by knowing about the consequences.

Its just the extreme cases that I think people throw all logic out the window. I can't fathom the possibility that an evil person exists where its totally their fault. That doesn't mean their shouldn't be consequences to their actions, but I think hatred and revenge are the least productive ways to deal with them.

Who said hatred and revenge, it's simply culling the herd, they need to be eliminated. It's clinical, they don't and can't fit in society.

Hatred and revenge is the theme of many posters here on this thread. Anyways like I said, I disagree that they need to be eliminated simply because they are humans and the fact that they committed the crime is enough tragedy. Adding more tragedy isn't going to make anyone feel better.

It's a tragedy that they commited a crime of that magnitude only to the victim, the victim's family and likely their own family. To say it's a tragedy on their behalf that they did something so wrong, which they probably enjoyed quite a bit, and likely would do again seems a little naïve to me.

Well I think the psychology to explain such behaviors is not well enough understood for any of us to make that determination. So rather than jump to the conclusion that they are evil and should be killed, I'm saying to simply spare their life. I don't think that's naive.

mikey1976

i agree some what i seen a documentury on hitler you can say pure evil but he faught in ww1 and after being wounded and mistreated by the french. he went through a lot and he new what he was doing. he was a genius but he was beyound human with no respect for other people. now i would pose you a question do you think he should be alive and living out his days in prison. or even bin ladin or the child killers should get a free pass to live out the rest of there life in prison while there victims are gone for ever

Marll

Being pro-choice and opposing the death penalty are not mutually exclusive. They are two entirely separate issues that have zero overlap, unless of course you're uninformed and looking to advance a muddled agenda.

Nice try, yourself.

So wait a second, just so I understand, killing a fetus, which will become an innocent baby human being is ok, but killing someone that is already born, and has done horrible things to other people is NOT ok? I don't have an issue with emergency contraception, or abortion in the cases of rape (mostly because of the trauma inflicted on the mother, and the loathing that would likely be placed on the child), but I'm still baffled how sparing the life of a criminal low life is better than sparing the life of a child?

Marll

At the same time, I highly doubt anyone would say "This happened because the dog is EVIL.". Everyone would be informed enough to understand that almost certainly the actions of the dog were not it's own fault, but the fault of the circumstances it was brought up in/treated.

Certainly they wouldn't place all the blame on the dog, however the dog doesn't have the same brain power of a human, nor the ability to reason and truly understand what they are doing, which again makes human crimes all that much worse.

Now if you take a mentally handicapped person that is truly mentally retarded/disabled and they commit a crime and can not actually fathom what they did, they should be placed in care such that they cannot harm others or themselves. There is a big difference between being mentally disabled and being mentally deranged.

Azdak

I'm against the death penalty for a few reasons.

1. For some reason we can't seem to figure out a way to do it humanely. There's lots of controversy over just how painful our methods are currently.

2. Our justice isn't foolproof. We make mistakes. If we value a victim's life so much that we want to put a murderer to death, how we can claim that we're ok with our convictions only being 99% accurate. That figure is made up, but anything under 100% is sufficient to keep me from approving of a death penalty.

There may be other reasons, but these require less thought and are enough for me to vote down a death penalty.

Mistakes is an under-statement. We have prosecutors who are so adamant that someone is guilty because of little more than a gut feeling that they are willing to lie and deceive to make sure they get a conviction.

Where I live, in DuPage County, Illinois, not only did the prosecutor lie and deceive to produce a conviction, he continued to assert that the defendant was guilty after he was cleared by DNA evidence--because he "seemed" suspicious.

Best part---the prosecutor was later a republican (of course) nominee for governor.

Azdak

Being pro-choice and opposing the death penalty are not mutually exclusive. They are two entirely separate issues that have zero overlap, unless of course you're uninformed and looking to advance a muddled agenda.

Nice try, yourself.

So wait a second, just so I understand, killing a fetus, which will become an innocent baby human being is ok, but killing someone that is already born, and has done horrible things to other people is NOT ok? I don't have an issue with emergency contraception, or abortion in the cases of rape (mostly because of the trauma inflicted on the mother, and the loathing that would likely be placed on the child), but I'm still baffled how sparing the life of a criminal low life is better than sparing the life of a child?

Not to sidetrack the discussion into another equally contentious issue, but your entire comment is based on a false premise.

Marll

Where I live, in DuPage County, Illinois, not only did the prosecutor lie and deceive to produce a conviction, he continued to assert that the defendant was guilty after he was cleared by DNA evidence--because he "seemed" suspicious.

Best part---the prosecutor was later a republican (of course) nominee for governor.

Yeah, left wingers NEVER do anything wrong (Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Mao, etc, etc) except when they commit major human attrocities....

Fact of the matter is that the Chicago area is a corrupt den of thugs that run your city and state. That prosecuter should have been thrown in jail himself, but probably wasn't because, hey that's Chicago politics.

Marll

Being pro-choice and opposing the death penalty are not mutually exclusive. They are two entirely separate issues that have zero overlap, unless of course you're uninformed and looking to advance a muddled agenda.

Nice try, yourself.

So wait a second, just so I understand, killing a fetus, which will become an innocent baby human being is ok, but killing someone that is already born, and has done horrible things to other people is NOT ok? I don't have an issue with emergency contraception, or abortion in the cases of rape (mostly because of the trauma inflicted on the mother, and the loathing that would likely be placed on the child), but I'm still baffled how sparing the life of a criminal low life is better than sparing the life of a child?

Not to sidetrack the discussion into another equally contentious issue, but your entire comment is based on a false premise.

The false premise of what exactly? That a fetus turns into a human? I'm pretty sure biology has that one sewed up.

But you're right, let's not get off, and get back to the death penalty.

Ruger2506

I guess because we value human life more than a dog's life. That's a good point though.

Depends on the human and dog. I know some humans that I would shoot before I would shoot my dog.

It's not like there is a shortage of humans on the earth. We can spare a few hundred thousand without any negative effect. In fact getting rid of a few hundred thousand pieces of trash would probably do us good. More resources for those of us who can play nice.

Marll

I guess because we value human life more than a dog's life. That's a good point though.

Depends on the human and dog. I know some humans that I would shoot before I would shoot my dog.

It's not like there is a shortage of humans on the earth. We can spare a few hundred thousand without any negative effect. In fact getting rid of a few hundred thousand pieces of trash would probably do us good. More resources for those of us who can play nice.

Agreed, most dogs are more loyal, forgiving and friendly than people, and most deserve much more than what they get.

One program that I think is great is when they have convicts do something useful like foster and train dogs, good for the animal and good for the people as well. Not all criminals are beyond help, most people deserve a second chance, there are some crimes though that are inexcusable.

Ruger2506

It is funny this topic came up. I was watching a show today on learning channel where they were talking to convicts. One guy flat out said he needs to be imprisoned for life. He was ok with raping and killing. And some of you want to keep him alive. What for?

Marll

It is funny this topic came up. I was watching a show today on learning channel where they were talking to convicts. One guy flat out said he needs to be imprisoned for life. He was ok with raping and killing. And some of you want to keep him alive. What for?

I've never understood that myself. It seems to be a very typical left wing ideal to keep these types of people alive, to give them better and better living conditions on the backs of working people paying for it. To try to get them parole, so they walk the street again, to attempt to restore their right to vote, to force employers to hire convicts, etc. And when they reoffend (not if, when) it's blamed on society not accepting them, they're alienated that's why Johnny went out and raped and killed a mother of 4....

I'll never understand the mindset in which those that are the worst that society has to offer have so much energy and money expended on their behalf to more or less reward them for being bad. Prison is a joke now, it is supposed to be something to be feared, and if you were in prison and got out, you'd make damn sure you wouldn't go back. Now it's just like a f***ing country club of sorts.

grinch031

Being pro-choice and opposing the death penalty are not mutually exclusive. They are two entirely separate issues that have zero overlap, unless of course you're uninformed and looking to advance a muddled agenda.

Nice try, yourself.

So wait a second, just so I understand, killing a fetus, which will become an innocent baby human being is ok, but killing someone that is already born, and has done horrible things to other people is NOT ok? I don't have an issue with emergency contraception, or abortion in the cases of rape (mostly because of the trauma inflicted on the mother, and the loathing that would likely be placed on the child), but I'm still baffled how sparing the life of a criminal low life is better than sparing the life of a child?

This is why the issue of abortion is very different than the death penalty. You can't just decide its okay to kill an innocent child because its mother was raped, but then say its not okay under other circumstances.

grinch031

It is funny this topic came up. I was watching a show today on learning channel where they were talking to convicts. One guy flat out said he needs to be imprisoned for life. He was ok with raping and killing. And some of you want to keep him alive. What for?

I've never understood that myself. It seems to be a very typical left wing ideal to keep these types of people alive, to give them better and better living conditions on the backs of working people paying for it. To try to get them parole, so they walk the street again, to attempt to restore their right to vote, to force employers to hire convicts, etc. And when they reoffend (not if, when) it's blamed on society not accepting them, they're alienated that's why Johnny went out and raped and killed a mother of 4....

I'll never understand the mindset in which those that are the worst that society has to offer have so much energy and money expended on their behalf to more or less reward them for being bad. Prison is a joke now, it is supposed to be something to be feared, and if you were in prison and got out, you'd make damn sure you wouldn't go back. Now it's just like a f***ing country club of sorts.

There's a difference between not supporting the death penalty, and wanting them back out on the streets or living in luxury in prison. And despite all the good things I'm hearing about prison, I sure as heck don't want to end up there.

Masterdo

Being pro-choice and opposing the death penalty are not mutually exclusive. They are two entirely separate issues that have zero overlap, unless of course you're uninformed and looking to advance a muddled agenda.

Nice try, yourself.

So wait a second, just so I understand, killing a fetus, which will become an innocent baby human being is ok, but killing someone that is already born, and has done horrible things to other people is NOT ok? I don't have an issue with emergency contraception, or abortion in the cases of rape (mostly because of the trauma inflicted on the mother, and the loathing that would likely be placed on the child), but I'm still baffled how sparing the life of a criminal low life is better than sparing the life of a child?

I think it is related in a twisted way Not getting an abortion when you would want/need one is just one of the most efficient way to give birth to human beings that will be raised in less than ideal conditions in most cases, to remain politically correct. Which then statistically leads to bullying and other crap, eventually maybe even to going past a line that requires us to think about the death penalty How many of those things do the criminal and society blame on bad parenting...

I see "being a bad parent" as the worst crime against humanity, so I might be biased... But I'd rather have the parents go through the mental breakdown and social exertion that comes with abortion rather than the child.

Azdak

I guess because we value human life more than a dog's life. That's a good point though.

Depends on the human and dog. I know some humans that I would shoot before I would shoot my dog.

It's not like there is a shortage of humans on the earth. We can spare a few hundred thousand without any negative effect. In fact getting rid of a few hundred thousand pieces of trash would probably do us good. More resources for those of us who can play nice.

Why do you assume you are one of the ones who would be left?

Ruger2506

[

Why do you assume you are one of the ones who would be left?

Because I haven't broken the law, because I contribute to society in a positive manner and because I've got the guns. Break in and try to take and my family out and find out why I'll be one of the ones left.

Azdak

It is funny this topic came up. I was watching a show today on learning channel where they were talking to convicts. One guy flat out said he needs to be imprisoned for life. He was ok with raping and killing. And some of you want to keep him alive. What for?

I've never understood that myself. It seems to be a very typical left wing ideal to keep these types of people alive, to give them better and better living conditions on the backs of working people paying for it. To try to get them parole, so they walk the street again, to attempt to restore their right to vote, to force employers to hire convicts, etc. And when they reoffend (not if, when) it's blamed on society not accepting them, they're alienated that's why Johnny went out and raped and killed a mother of 4....

I'll never understand the mindset in which those that are the worst that society has to offer have so much energy and money expended on their behalf to more or less reward them for being bad. Prison is a joke now, it is supposed to be something to be feared, and if you were in prison and got out, you'd make damn sure you wouldn't go back. Now it's just like a f***ing country club of sorts.

I didn't realize so many people on this site had so much personal experience with prison. What were you in for?

Azdak

[

Why do you assume you are one of the ones who would be left?

Because I haven't broken the law, because I contribute to society in a positive manner and because I've got the guns. Break in and try to take and my family out and find out why I'll be one of the ones left.

Again, what makes you think you contribute to society in a positive manner? Do we all get a vote?

I'm not saying you do or you don't, but without some objective criteria, you never know ....

Ruger2506

Again, what makes you think you contribute to society in a positive manner? Do we all get a vote?

I'm not saying you do or you don't, but without some objective criteria, you never know ....

Fair enough. It costs an average of $28816.75/year to house an inmate. I pay that in taxes per year. I do not break the law. On top of that I pay for my own healthcare. I have no child in public schools. I guess the only thing I take from society is I drive on the roads. Which I pay gas and lic taxes for. So I feel it is safe to say I am a positive member of society. Not a drain like a inmate.

hikezilla

Where I live, in DuPage County, Illinois, not only did the prosecutor lie and deceive to produce a conviction, he continued to assert that the defendant was guilty after he was cleared by DNA evidence--because he "seemed" suspicious.

Best part---the prosecutor was later a republican (of course) nominee for governor.

I hear ya. You couldn't pay me enough to live in Illinois. In the last four decades, Illinois has sent four governors to prison, the big house, big boy jail. 3 democrats and a republican. How many Illinois congressmen have been sent to prison, the most notorious probably being democrat Dan Rostenkowski....I live in Indiana, we buy ads in Illinois inviting companies to pull up stakes and move to tax friendly, freedom loving, Indiana...and it's working.

My little brother lives up near Kane County....the only thing that keeps him there is a decent job...with a California based company.

NakedLunchTime

Part of the issue with serial killers is that their mind does not understand the concept of right and wrong. There is something that just doesn't click or they are exceptional at justification.

Yes. I actually watched an extremely interesting documentary, geez, about 5 yrs ago now. It showed brain scans from an average persons brain and then compared it to scans of serial killers brains. I don't know the part of the brain so bear with me lol but the middle of the brain has a whiter mass that is almost the shap of a butterfly, and in the scan of the serial killers brain it was about 3 times the size of the average persons!! Really good documentary actually.

However, regarding nature vs. nurture, I don't believe all serial killers have this gentic abnormality. I feel some do and some their environment played a bigger role. But Yes I do agree with you about something not "clicking" the way it should.

NakedLunchTime

It is funny this topic came up. I was watching a show today on learning channel where they were talking to convicts. One guy flat out said he needs to be imprisoned for life. He was ok with raping and killing. And some of you want to keep him alive. What for?

I hate to say this, but I am addicted to shows such as locked up and anything in the category. I have watched tons of documentarys on alot of the notorious killers/crimes and it is truly horrifying to see the amount criminals involved that state that they should be locked up because if they do get out they WILL kill/rape..whatever again!!! So scary!! I sleep with pepper spay near my bed and my bedroom door locked to give me extra time to jump out my window if I hear anyone in my house at night!! lol I may be a little bit crazy but these people scare the s*** outta me!!! Lol

Marll

It is funny this topic came up. I was watching a show today on learning channel where they were talking to convicts. One guy flat out said he needs to be imprisoned for life. He was ok with raping and killing. And some of you want to keep him alive. What for?

I've never understood that myself. It seems to be a very typical left wing ideal to keep these types of people alive, to give them better and better living conditions on the backs of working people paying for it. To try to get them parole, so they walk the street again, to attempt to restore their right to vote, to force employers to hire convicts, etc. And when they reoffend (not if, when) it's blamed on society not accepting them, they're alienated that's why Johnny went out and raped and killed a mother of 4....

I'll never understand the mindset in which those that are the worst that society has to offer have so much energy and money expended on their behalf to more or less reward them for being bad. Prison is a joke now, it is supposed to be something to be feared, and if you were in prison and got out, you'd make damn sure you wouldn't go back. Now it's just like a f***ing country club of sorts.

I didn't realize so many people on this site had so much personal experience with prison. What were you in for?

Hardy-har-har, you're funny :laugh:

It doesn't take a whole lot of intelligence to see that the conditions in prison are too good. Watch any documentary on prison, maybe even visit one on a tour (yes, you can do that in many places) and you'll see that they have it much nicer than your average low income family. TV, Internet, Phones, video games, etc. etc. There is hardly and consequence to their actions other than that they can't come and go as they please.

The fact alone that they have these things provided for them, 3 square meals a day, exercise time, clothing, bedding, and a place relatively safe is more than most people get without busting their humps to get is too good for them. Prison should be hell, it should make you not want to re-offend.

Marll

I think it is related in a twisted way Not getting an abortion when you would want/need one is just one of the most efficient way to give birth to human beings that will be raised in less than ideal conditions in most cases, to remain politically correct. Which then statistically leads to bullying and other crap, eventually maybe even to going past a line that requires us to think about the death penalty How many of those things do the criminal and society blame on bad parenting...

I see "being a bad parent" as the worst crime against humanity, so I might be biased... But I'd rather have the parents go through the mental breakdown and social exertion that comes with abortion rather than the child.

That's such a stretch IMO. I'll take my own father for example. He and his 2 brothers and 1 sister were abandoned by their single mother in the 1960s when he was only about 3 or 4. They travelled from one abusive foster home to the next. I know that the boys suffered severe physical abuse in the home they finally ended up in, and there is a good chance my aunt was sexually molested by the foster father. They didn't take an active role the children's education and they all dropped out of school by junior high. I was born to 2 teenage parents that just barely turned 17. This sounds like a recipe for disaster and continuing abuse. Did that happen? No.

My dad realized that he was the master of his own destiny, joined the Army and had a very decorated and distinguished career. He never once touched me or my sister in anger and choose to explain what we'd done wrong and why it was so. He took a very active role in our education. He went back to school while serving and graduated, and graduated from every advanced school for his job and leadership role at the top of every class (literally). My aunt is a very well respected expert in her career field and makes very good money. Their environment was not the best growing up, but they were obviously not products of it.

Everyone can make decisions in their life to change, and those that say otherwise are shortchanging the will and intelligence of the human mind to do so.