Bye Bye Death Penalty

grinch031

The example of Singapore is a valid argument, and I agree that my remark could be construed as an oversimplified blanket statement, though that's not how I meant it. With respect to that, a country like Singapore wasn't exactly what I was thinking of. I was thinking more of examples such as Sweden where murder rates are very low.

I agree that the person is the one in ultimate control of their actions, of course. But what exactly is a person? I think we're shaped through our environment, in addition to being born with inherent personality traits. Simplified, when you live in a society that glorifies violence, how can we expect not to turn out killers? I'm by no means justifying people killing or saying society directly causes it thus should condone it. But I am saying it's much more complicated than simple black and white.

With that clarification, I agree that it is extremely complicated. I don't know enough about Sweden's legal system to comment. I think the root causes, glorification of violence, socioeconomic disparities, not getting enough hugs as a kid (kidding), run deep. I do agree that there are societal forces that make lives difficult and can foster an atmosphere where violent crime is more likely, but I am viscerally against the 'don't blame me, blame society' mentality (not saying that's what you said, more reacting against it in my response to you).

What difference does it make who you blame? In either case you still have to deal with the individual and make sure they aren't a threat to anyone else. Of course if you blame the individual you deal with them and every single person after them. If you blame society, you can make a difference that leads to actual lowering of crime.

fightingdissonance

I see what you're saying, but I disagree with the rationale. Violent offenders imprisoned for life without parole should be kept in isolation units if they are a risk to other inmates, which to my understanding is what happens. Also, prison isn't a nice place, nor should it be. It IS potentially violent, but not everyone violent there needs to be there for murder to hurt other inmates, so in my opinion, that argument for keeping the death penalty becomes moot. Arguing for the death penalty based on protecting other convicts is a logical fallacy.

I think this will have to be an agree to disagree sort of thing. The fact is that today lifers do mingle with genpop in prison. It's restricted somewhat, but we can't really afford for them not to (it's also cruel and unusual, to my understanding, to keep someone in 24 hour lockdown forever). An argument could be made for stricter separation, but I don't think it's feasible to completely separate the two. Even death row inmates have interactions with genpop.

I do strongly disagree that my argument is a logical fallacy. When we convict a criminal, the state takes responsibility for that person. In sentencing them to prison, we are responsible for their safety and well-being. That's why we have to do maintenance repairs in prisons, and staff medical professionals, etc. I believe mingling violent offenders with life sentences with genpop, when studies have shown those offenders are more likely to terrorize other inmates, undermines the state's responsibility to keep those other inmates safe. Prisons are already a dangerous enough place, this makes it more so. There's only so much you can do to protect inmates in prison, but if you're a poor 19 year old kid who stole a benz and took it for a joy ride, what happens if the serial killer sitting next to you at lunch has a bad day?

I'm happy to agree to disagree on this. I see your point, but it overcomplicates the larger issue and by no means warrants the death penalty remaining in use, in my opinion. And you're right, extended isolation absolutely causes irreparable psychological damage, something that is currently a major issue in US prisons from my understanding. Some prisons are so overcrowded and poorly managed that many inmates are indefinitely just in isolation cages, and past a point of psychological deterioration they can't really be returned to the general population.

Pebble321

I live in a country that doesn't have the death penalty - and I would not wish to live in a country that does.

Contrarian

What if they did those horrible things to your child or your family member? Are you okay with them living off your tax dollars for the rest of their lives?????

Yes. It would be more important to me that they are sorry than punished. Having years to reflect on what they did would be more likely to accomplish that.

leomom72

bump

nakabi

We all should have learned it by kindergarten: two wrongs don't make a right. It works for big stuff too.

Two wrongs don't make a right but every human being and animal alike uses some form of punishment. Not saying I would wanna be the one to carry out the action of a death penalty but I do believe that prisoners have a pretty easy life in prison for the most part(excluding the prison violence...I kow it can get pretty bad in some prisons) also, yes, there are many that have been wrongly accused but I blame that totally on the judicial system and the ability of lawyers to totally twist the truth around. Of course NO one can fully say that they can judge someone as guilty beyond a reason of doubt. ****, I can't even decide what's for dinner without some doubt that I should have done something different. They play on your basic emotions that MAYBE something was not right or maybe the person really is a decent person. That's why I say make prison a living hell, make it an actual punishment to go to prison. Don't give them an education and access to the internet and a tv. Lock them in a tiny cage and make them grow their own food, make their own clothes, clean up after themselves etc......make them work their butt off and be worried that ther might not be another meal....oh but that is cruel and unusal punishment..my *kitten* it should be cruel punishment otherwise it is NOT a punishment. When you punish your child are they asking you to do it again?? No way, you make sure it is something that will make their life unpleasant for a short time depending on the behavior that is how you determine the severity of the punishment.
you wouldn't send your 16 year old to the time out corner for punching another kid at school...first f all they wuld be expelled and you would probably take their phone, laptop, car away for at least a week...UNPLEASANT..not fun totally sucks...so why in the heck do we send an accused murder "to his room" so to speak, allow him fitness time, the opportunity to educate themself, the option to watch tv, and socialize with other prisoners? Sounds like a vacation to me. Sure we send him to his room for 15 years but really we just follow the whole "out of sight out of mind" theory. No state should have a DOT road patch crew...it should all be done by the states prisoners...they should be out ther manually repairing the roads. All those sections of grass that need mowed along the interstates.....inmates mowing with a push mower. They decide to get crazy and mow one another over so be it. Just saying!
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this!

hdtoolgirl

I am a CT resident.. In the last 52 years, CT has only put one person to death, so really, nothing changes. There is way to many retrials, hearings etc to get across the red tape to make it happen. Yes, an eye for an eye, but most people die before their execution date in CT. They are living off our tax dollars either way. Michael Ross, the only man executed in the last 50 years waited 30 years in prison to be executed. And that was delayed over and over.

cyclingben

As comedian Ron White Says : Some states are trying to do away with the death penalty.... Mine is putting in an express lane.

grinch031

Agree with the poster in which you are quoting. Every single person IS a product of their genetics and their environment. The primary reason more minorities are in prison is because they grow up in worse environments. Whether its their fault or not isn't really the point. If they committed the crime and it can be proven they did it, then they need to be isolated from society because they are likely to repeat the crime, and we need to set an example of them to deter others as best we can.

But living in a society where there is a lot of violent crime is a failure of that society. So killing the individuals who are a product of a society that failed them isn't really what I call justice.

A fair point, but again, some people view capital punishment not as justice per se, but as protection of society (the ultimate isolation from society, so to speak). I also don't think the 'make an example of them' philosophy works. Punishment as a deterrent has a pretty shaky success rate, hence so many repeat offenders.

I think deterence works quite well up to a certain point. Once you're dealing with people who don't value human life, then it won't make a difference. But the problem is why do so many of these people exist and what can we do about it? If we can't deter them, then the death penalty is not going to make any difference in making anyone else safer.

nakabi

I live in a country that doesn't have the death penalty - and I would not wish to live in a country that does.

I live in state that does not have deaht penalty- and I wish I did.

mrmanmeat

Tell that to the victims families.

Eye for an eye, in my opinion.

As crowded as prisons are, as severe as some crimes are, all states should have the death penalty.

HarlCarl

I believe in death penalty for parking violations!!!!

Pifflesmom

We don't have the death penalty here in Canada. But I am pro-death penalty as long as it is 100% with out a doubt guilty. A lot of innocent people were killed while it was in place. Granted, the laws and ways to find adequate evidence has changed.

I feel the same way! I would never want someone sentenced to death unless there was 100% DNA evidence that linked them or they openly admitted to the crime. Without that, it's just not right to tell someone they are to be punished by death when it can't even be proven without a doubt.

I'm also from Canada and knowing that I get up and go to work everyday, am a consciencious member of my community and do my due diligence to society so that my taxes can pay for someone like Paul Bernardo to continue to live - well frankly, HE and others like him is the reason I wish they'd bring back the death penalty in Canada.

fightingdissonance

What if they did those horrible things to your child or your family member? Are you okay with them living off your tax dollars for the rest of their lives?????

As an individual who has experienced this, I can say unequivocally, yes.

Aviendha_RJ

<--- Canadian. We have no death penalty. I HATE this. There are people with DNA and video evidence against them proving that they are the WORST kind of people our society has ever spit out, & MY tax dollars are paying for their living expenses? Paul Bernardo (FAMOUS serial rapist & murderer) even gets PRIVATE housing & security because the other inmates would kill him on sight for the things he did to his own SISTER-IN-LAW... but hey! Why go to Canadian Tire & get a $3 length of rope, why not let us pay hundreds of thousands of dollars every year for his upkeep? What the hell... he's got rights, doesn't he? The little girls he raped & killed on video & their families... who cares about their rights?

ME that's who. Wish like hell we had the Death Penalty up here. Stupid Canadian Society is too damned NICE!

kikokateyy

We don't have the death penalty here in Canada. But I am pro-death penalty as long as it is 100% with out a doubt guilty. A lot of innocent people were killed while it was in place. Granted, the laws and ways to find adequate evidence has changed.

I feel the same way! I would never want someone sentenced to death unless there was 100% DNA evidence that linked them or they openly admitted to the crime. Without that, it's just not right to tell someone they are to be punished by death when it can't even be proven without a doubt.

I'm also from Canada and knowing that I get up and go to work everyday, am a consciencious member of my community and do my due diligence to society so that my taxes can pay for someone like Paul Bernardo to continue to live - well frankly, HE and others like him is the reason I wish they'd bring back the death penalty in Canada.

Exactly!

fightingdissonance

Agree with the poster in which you are quoting. Every single person IS a product of their genetics and their environment. The primary reason more minorities are in prison is because they grow up in worse environments. Whether its their fault or not isn't really the point. If they committed the crime and it can be proven they did it, then they need to be isolated from society because they are likely to repeat the crime, and we need to set an example of them to deter others as best we can.

But living in a society where there is a lot of violent crime is a failure of that society. So killing the individuals who are a product of a society that failed them isn't really what I call justice.

A fair point, but again, some people view capital punishment not as justice per se, but as protection of society (the ultimate isolation from society, so to speak). I also don't think the 'make an example of them' philosophy works. Punishment as a deterrent has a pretty shaky success rate, hence so many repeat offenders.

I think deterence works quite well up to a certain point. Once you're dealing with people who don't value human life, then it won't make a difference. But the problem is why do so many of these people exist and what can we do about it? If we can't deter them, then the death penalty is not going to make any difference in making anyone else safer.

Exactly. At a certain point, deterrence doesn't work. That's when a society needs to look at the root causes that create its members who are undeterred by punishment.

Mom0fTwo

I think they should all be put on a desert island. Let them kill each other instead of us paying for them to watch tv-body build-and make royalties from books they write while in prison.

That is how Australia started lol!

SwannySez

I don't even kill bugs.

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

"A robin red-breast in a cage puts all heaven in a rage."

naku

Wow. Being a person born and raised in Scandinavia, this thread has just completely blown my mind and made me feel truly uneasy...

I had no idea, or maybe more so it had never even crossed my mind that this amount of people could be in favour of the death penalty. And so passionately... Wow.... I'm speechless.

Like said, coming from Scandinavia, our prison systems are famously known for their concentrating on the rehabilitation of prisoners and giving them a lot of freedom. If they are impossible to rehabilitate, they are not evil they are SICK and need medical care and to be kept where they are not a danger to others... not to be killed. The whole idea repulses me.

Because of this approach, Norway, Sweden and Finland have the lowest re-offending rates and the emptiest prisons in the world. Go figure....