Vegetarianism. Seriously? (A Debate)

1953Judith

I am inclined toward vegetarianism and my husband of almost 36 years is a confirmed carnivore. Of our two adult children, our son is of the vegetarian persuasion (since 5th grade) and our daughter is into the meat/good fat, low carb persuasion (based on some random guys theories who I don't understand). Both kids are in good health, functioning independently, in the normal weight range, in committed relationships etc., etc. The only problem my son has with his vegetarian ways is the stereotyping that you are nice, unargumentative and a knee-jerk liberal. He doesn't care what others eat. My daughter is a bit more into proselytizing and believes I am dooming my health. Imagine Thanksgiving, nonetheless everyone loves to come to our house and enjoy and we have a double spread.

I have a strong family history of heart disease and stroke and I am a cancer survivor. My cholesterol and blood pressure measures do better when I go the vegetarian route. Whether my eating approach will give me extra quality years, I guess I'll never know, but it seems to keep my doctors' happy and that keeps me happy. I am a really good cook both veges and meat so I don't feel deprived without meat. In the spirit of being inclusionary, I can't resist prime rib if it is on the menu when I go out and I love a good hamburger and fries on rare occasions.

gchutson

What bothers me about that whole lot [of people that have never existed ever] (referencing other people is forbidden), is that you never see "healthy" vegetarians. By "healthy," I mean my definition of "healthy." IE, muscles, built, powerful, etc...

Actually there are a fair amount of vegetarian bodybuilders in the IFBB, but I guess you could argue it doesn't matter that much what you're eating when the drugs in your veins mean you put on muscle lifting a fork to your face - which vegetarians have to do a whole lot more.

The sheer quantity of food I would have to consume to meet my protein and calorific needs in plant matter would be astronomical, let alone the expense of it all. I'll stick to my 3 chicken fillets or big fat steak.

Exactly. When I was young, fit and good looking, and fighting on a daily basis... If I were only eating "fruits and veggies" at the time, I would have had to have eaten 200 apples a day to even put a dent in my calorie needs.

I will admit however, that is a tremendous number of doctors I would subsequently be keeping away.

gchutson

First--you're darling and hysterical! Second--some strangeness overcame me 8 weeks ago. I was minding my own business eating a sloppy joe (a favorite) when I over-thought things and realized I was eating the flesh of a dead animal. Haven't had any a bite since. I can still make the best ribs in town and have NO idea what I'll do for Thanksgiving. Frankly, I hope it's just a phase!

I had the same realization yesterday. I was eating meat, when I suddenly realized that it was the flesh of a living creature.
It moo'd.

gchutson

I like meat and I like blood!

However, I do have two darling cats, they are my friends and... we DON'T eat friends! So, I'd have to qualify, "Yes, I like meat AND I like blood, however, I probably wouldn't eat it if there was any intimacy involved prior to feasting..."

Again, avoiding all jokes about "eating [cats]."

gchutson

This is my opinion, which will probably cause a stir but o well......I love most meats also but I try to eat smaller portions of it than I did in the past, because I think, historically, that's what we are meant to do..... If you think back to the hunter/gatherer cultures...or actually not even that far back...when someone happened to kill an animal (which probably was not every single day) then it would be divided up and everyone would get a portion (probably much smaller than..let say, a typical steak)......the rest of the diet whole be nuts, fruit, and grains in later times.....I guess I try to do a more modern version of this..I usually eat meat at dinner but not breakfast (excepts eggs) or lunch always....I have also replaced a lot of beef with venison....and eat lots and lots of seafood (its my fav). I often get vegetarian dishes when I go out, they're good and less calories!! I think as long as people get enough protien and other essentials, you can be a healthy vegan or carnevour.

There's a flaw in your logic. Being a neanderthal myself... we don't share well.

tigersword

I do believe eating no meat or little meat significantly reduces the interior and exterior wear and tear on your body. Plus you are more likely to consume and ENJOY fruit, vegetables, and legumes. For children raised vegetarian, it sets a foundation for life for healthy eating. All of my kids love healthy food, they don't have that distaste for veggies that seems common in American children.

I would never tell anyone they SHOULD be vegetarian, but I do think most people (at least in the states) eat too much meat. You can never go wrong in reducing how much meat you eat, but eating too much meat can actually hurt you.

Scientifically, none of this is true. Vegetarians, vegans, and omnivores all have the same rates of disease and life expectancies. Also, I eat meat, and I've never not enjoyed fruit, vegetables, or legumes. Vegetarian =/= healthy eating, as there are plenty of things that are vegetarian that are not healthy. Oreo cookies, potato chips, french fries, just 3 examples off the top of my head that are considered vegetarian (well, vegan technically.)

Good habits lead to good health, no specific diet or way of eating automatically leads to good health.

And GC, commercial potato chips are fried in canola oil, vegetable oil, or sunflower oil. They stopped using lard decades ago. Sad really, as nutritionally, lard is actually very high in monounsaturated fat, and medium chain triglycerides, the healthy stuff people are spending crazy amounts of money on coconut oil for. :laugh:

AllTehBeers

I like chicken and I like the occasional burger. The rest I could do with or without. I like meat but its not something I'm truely for or against.

shivaslives

The only debate are ones that people create. My philosophy is to each their own and let's each live our lives the way we see fit. I ate enough meat in the first 35 years of my life to last a lifetime. I've been vegetarian for 13 years and when people ask me "why?", the answer is easy: "I feel better when I don't eat meat." As for no healthy vegetarians, I would debate that point vigorously; there are plenty of us out there. There are also plenty of unhealthy vegetarians who, like omnivores, don't eat healthy, and I've been one of those also.
BTW - chips are generally fried in vegetable oil because its the cheapest.



Advice is worth exactly what you pay for it!
<=>

AllTehBeers

*snip*

Good habits lead to good health, no specific diet or way of eating automatically leads to good health.

This is the best thing I've ever seen posted here.

gchutson

I do believe eating no meat or little meat significantly reduces the interior and exterior wear and tear on your body. Plus you are more likely to consume and ENJOY fruit, vegetables, and legumes. For children raised vegetarian, it sets a foundation for life for healthy eating. All of my kids love healthy food, they don't have that distaste for veggies that seems common in American children.

I would never tell anyone they SHOULD be vegetarian, but I do think most people (at least in the states) eat too much meat. You can never go wrong in reducing how much meat you eat, but eating too much meat can actually hurt you.

Scientifically, none of this is true. Vegetarians, vegans, and omnivores all have the same rates of disease and life expectancies. Also, I eat meat, and I've never not enjoyed fruit, vegetables, or legumes. Vegetarian =/= healthy eating, as there are plenty of things that are vegetarian that are not healthy. Oreo cookies, potato chips, french fries, just 3 examples off the top of my head that are considered vegetarian (well, vegan technically.)

Good habits lead to good health, no specific diet or way of eating automatically leads to good health.

And GC, commercial potato chips are fried in canola oil, vegetable oil, or sunflower oil. They stopped using lard decades ago. Sad really, as nutritionally, lard is actually very high in monounsaturated fat, and medium chain triglycerides, the healthy stuff people are spending crazy amounts of money on coconut oil for. :laugh:

Apparently, you've never been to the south. We fry everything in lard. Last night I had chicken-fried ice tea.

Sidesteal

I'm against food elimination under most circumstances.

The two best reasons I can think of to support food elimination are moral issues and medical/intolerance related issues.

Vegetarianism for moral reasons, I say go for it if that's what you believe.


More meat for me anyways.

gchutson

The only debate are ones that people create. My philosophy is to each their own and let's each live our lives the way we see fit. I ate enough meat in the first 35 years of my life to last a lifetime. I've been vegetarian for 13 years and when people ask me "why?", the answer is easy: "I feel better when I don't eat meat." As for no healthy vegetarians, I would debate that point vigorously; there are plenty of us out there. There are also plenty of unhealthy vegetarians who, like omnivores, don't eat healthy, and I've been one of those also.
BTW - chips are generally fried in vegetable oil because its the cheapest.



Advice is worth exactly what you pay for it!
<=>

Some people are very astute at creating debates. They commonly known as "master debators."

Read that sentence out loud. You'll laugh.

shivaslives

Just in case you still think that vegans can't be powerful and healthy, you can out this site (and others).
http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/

carld256

You say you don't want to judge, but you're already clearly judging in your title. Thanks, but I'll pass on this episode of "Everybody Punch the Vegan."

gchutson

You say you don't want to judge, but you're already clearly judging in your title. Thanks, but I'll pass on this episode of "Everybody Punch the Vegan."

I would never, ever, ever punch a vegan. They'd probably break. I joke, I joke.

gchutson

Just in case you still think that vegans can't be powerful and healthy, you can out this site (and others).
http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/

I don't know that a hyperlink actually constitutes an "argument," but it's interesting.

My first question is, how do those guys maintain the caloric requirements to build that type of muscle mass?

My second question is, how many of those pictured could pass a drug screen?

ImpishScoundrel

My logic, and the fact that I watch way too many documentaries, states that homo sapiens were designed as omnivores for a reason. In order to maintain optimum body performance we need a certain amount of the iron, minerals, fats, and proteins found exclusively in meats. I sometimes have a hard time seeing how vegetarians get these essential nutrients without having to add manufactured supplements to their diet. Maybe I'm missing something?

Sarauk2sf

Nope.

gchutson

My logic, and the fact that I watch way too many documentaries, states that homo sapiens were designed as omnivores for a reason. In order to maintain optimum body performance we need a certain amount of the iron, minerals, fats, and proteins found exclusively in meats. I sometimes have a hard time seeing how vegetarians get these essential nutrients without having to add manufactured supplements to their diet. Maybe I'm missing something?

I completely, and wholeheartedly agree. What about Metro Sapiens?

nikinyx6

My logic, and the fact that I watch way too many documentaries, states that homo sapiens were designed as omnivores for a reason. In order to maintain optimum body performance we need a certain amount of the iron, minerals, fats, and proteins found exclusively in meats. I sometimes have a hard time seeing how vegetarians get these essential nutrients without having to add manufactured supplements to their diet. Maybe I'm missing something?

^^ that's what I meant....

cheesy_blasters

What bothers me about that whole lot [of people that have never existed ever] (referencing other people is forbidden), is that you never see "healthy" vegetarians. By "healthy," I mean my definition of "healthy." IE, muscles, built, powerful, etc...

Actually there are a fair amount of vegetarian bodybuilders in the IFBB, but I guess you could argue it doesn't matter that much what you're eating when the drugs in your veins mean you put on muscle lifting a fork to your face - which vegetarians have to do a whole lot more.

The sheer quantity of food I would have to consume to meet my protein and calorific needs in plant matter would be astronomical, let alone the expense of it all. I'll stick to my 3 chicken fillets or big fat steak.

I couldn't even imagine how someone could meet some of the calorie goals I've seen here without meat. I find that with my number (just over 1400 without exercise) it can be hard getting to it with just legumes and veggies. And I feel like I'm always eating!

Sarauk2sf

My logic, and the fact that I watch way too many documentaries, states that homo sapiens were designed as omnivores for a reason. In order to maintain optimum body performance we need a certain amount of the iron, minerals, fats, and proteins found exclusively in meats. I sometimes have a hard time seeing how vegetarians get these essential nutrients without having to add manufactured supplements to their diet. Maybe I'm missing something?

I easily get over 130g of protein with no protein powder as long as I pay attention to what I am eating. It's really not that hard. It is my understanding that all micronutients needed by the body can be obtained from a vegetarian diet, but if worried all you need to do is take little itty bitty multi-vitamin.

ImpishScoundrel

My logic, and the fact that I watch way too many documentaries, states that homo sapiens were designed as omnivores for a reason. In order to maintain optimum body performance we need a certain amount of the iron, minerals, fats, and proteins found exclusively in meats. I sometimes have a hard time seeing how vegetarians get these essential nutrients without having to add manufactured supplements to their diet. Maybe I'm missing something?

I completely, and wholeheartedly agree. What about Metro Sapiens?

Scary genetic mutations. Best to avoid them whenever possible.

Contrarian

I love the taste of meat, but I like animals better when they are alive. I don't care what other people eat, though. It's just my preference to not eat animals.

tizzie_14

I like steak. And chicken. And fish. Period. As with meat-eaters, vegetarians can also have a poor diet. People are free to choose what they want to eat and why they want to eat it. I like shrimp cocktail as an app before a steak. But that's just me. But I wouldn't eat a cat. That's not for me.

gchutson

I love the taste of meat, but I like animals better when they are alive. I don't care what other people eat, though. It's just my preference to not eat animals.

I too love animals. With gravy.

gchutson

I like steak. And chicken. And fish. Period. As with meat-eaters, vegetarians can also have a poor diet. People are free to choose what they want to eat and why they want to eat it. I like shrimp cocktail as an app before a steak. But that's just me. But I wouldn't eat a cat. That's not for me.

Nothing wrong with eating cats. The fur balls are kind of a b!tch though.

tizzie_14

I like steak. And chicken. And fish. Period. As with meat-eaters, vegetarians can also have a poor diet. People are free to choose what they want to eat and why they want to eat it. I like shrimp cocktail as an app before a steak. But that's just me. But I wouldn't eat a cat. That's not for me.

Nothing wrong with eating cats. The fur balls are kind of a b!tch though.

I'm allergic.

meerkat70

I'm not sure I understand the terms of the debate. You like the taste of meat, nd therefore vegetarianism is wrong? Is that your basic argument, OP? really really?

nikinyx6

I'm not sure I understand the terms of the debate. You like the taste of meat, nd therefore vegetarianism is wrong? Is that your basic argument, OP? really really?

I think he's just wondering why vegans chose to live the life they do. GH likes to joke, but only for fun's sake...he's not attacking anyone....