The Science Behind "Nice" People
Replies
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This. Sure, taking care of each other helps society as a whole, providing a better environment for all of us (can you tell I'm not a republican)? But to say that's the ONLY reason someone would be nice is pretty narrow-focused and discounts all the other motivations driving people.I'd say it's more correlated than proven.
I actually agree with you and I *am* a Republican. But ridiculous, unfounded mud slinging is always fun, right?
LOL I am starting to think that ridiculous, unfounded mud slinging is part of the democrats platform...0 -
I volunteered on a suicide hotline for nearly 5 years (after surviving a few years of awful depression myself). I did it to give something to others who were suffering. When I helped people and they finished the call feeling more positive/more hopeful/even laughing, yes it did indeed make me feel great and it put a spring in my step. I still have cards and letters that callers had sent to me thanking me for helping them and some even say I saved their lives that day/night. When I'm having a bad day, I read those and they lift me so much.
I don't know, but if that's "self-serving" then so be it.0 -
OP, you might find this series interesting -
http://www.radiolab.org/2010/dec/14/
http://www.radiolab.org/2010/dec/14/equation-good/0 -
Actually, that's more of Nash's theory, but you're headed in the right direction."Being nice" benefits the ENTIRE GROUP, not simply the person performing "nice behavior". If it didn't, we wouldn't continue as a social species.0 -
Not a democrat, either. :-)
This. Sure, taking care of each other helps society as a whole, providing a better environment for all of us (can you tell I'm not a republican)? But to say that's the ONLY reason someone would be nice is pretty narrow-focused and discounts all the other motivations driving people.I'd say it's more correlated than proven.
Leave it to some libtard to turn this into something political. Keep telling yourself that democrats are all about peace and love and that republicans are evil. This is just what you are meant to believe, this means that the propaganda mill is working! Then you don't think for yourself. It's better that way...
Then I guess you don't have that excuse for your narrow mind...0 -
I'm not quite sure why the idea of a biological basis of behavior is so disappointing.
I don't get it either. :shrug:
It's a shame Mr. Price found this to be so troubling (clearly he had some issues going on) but I don't understand how this is seen as a negative thing. It's simply an explanation. We do good to benefit everyone, including ourselves. So?0 -
Is anyone else reminded of Vizzini in "Princess Bride"?0
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Umm... I'm guessing you don't realize that you literally just proved the validity of the equation with your exact statement above.Maybe true for some but not for all!
I'm nice because I treat people how I want to be treated. Because I was brought up to be nice and considerate.
I don't expect to get anything from anyone except equal treatment
You're nice... because you want people to be nice to you, in return.
I love epiphany moments.0 -
But the points you've been making sound like you ARE judging people by their actions -- and that a nice action is inherently suspicious because it can only have self-serving motive behind it.
A. Go read it again. You clearly missed the point.Wow, that must be a very miserable world you live in where you a) will not trust anybody and b) you have to break down niceness into a equation that proves that everyone you meet is a self-serving pr*ck.
B. It's not my equation. It was published before I was born.
So, by your account, me basing my assessment of a person on their actions, rather than their words, makes me "cynical."I'd rather appreciate it when somebody's nice to me and accept, yes there are horrible people out there but it us up to me how I allow that to influence my view of the world. You give horrible people a LOT of power if you allow them make you so cynical.
Works for me.
I agree, in the OP he came off as implying that being less nice was somehow better because you aren't conforming to your genetically programmed ways. Of course there's always going to be a wide spectrum of variations on the niceness scale on an individual basis. I think he's just trying to get a response. Interesting discussion though.0 -
While there is a lot of evidence that altruism does serve an adaptive purpose in both animals and humans (which has led to a debate about how altruistic altruism actually is) I think you've massively overstated the amount of evidence for, and the overall impact of, Price's work specifically. Price was not the first person to propose that altruistic behavior had a very real adaptive advantage, nor was he the last. Moreover, just because you can write down an equation about how you think two things are related, does not make it true. This type of model, or theorem is known to be overly reductionist, as Box and Draper wrote "remember that all models are wrong; the practical question is how wrong do they have to be to not be useful." Price's model undoubtedly provided food for thought, and may even be useful scientifically, but that does not make it absolutely true, or the final word on the subject of either altruism or humanity. Finally, I'd like to contest the use of the word "proven" used in the context of any scientific discussion, as "proof" is not the project of science, rather, the goal of science is to provide evidence against some explanations in order to provide indirect support for others.0
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Unfortunately, it's part of EVERYON'Es platform these days. Just depends on your perspective and what you're willing to listen to (and critically examine for fearmongering and circular logic) if you think one "side" is worse than the other. If politicians actually spoke to people as if their audience were composed of rational-minded adults, it would be a whole other game. But fear and hate are far more effective, sadly enough. Which does further the OP's post somewhat. :-)
This. Sure, taking care of each other helps society as a whole, providing a better environment for all of us (can you tell I'm not a republican)? But to say that's the ONLY reason someone would be nice is pretty narrow-focused and discounts all the other motivations driving people.I'd say it's more correlated than proven.
I actually agree with you and I *am* a Republican. But ridiculous, unfounded mud slinging is always fun, right?
LOL I am starting to think that ridiculous, unfounded mud slinging is part of the democrats platform...0 -
Big, mean & scary??
One of my favorite movie quotes ever is "I want you to be nice, until it's time to not be nice" (Roadhouse - Patrick Swayze mmmmmm)
That's me - I'm nice at first but I really don't trust anyone and once I'm hurt or pissed off I tend to just cut people off and not look back.0 -
So, you were nice, to ensure the survival of others. And they gave you praise, in return in the form of tangible gifts. Which, in turn, bring you happiness and purpose, and a desire to continue... living.I volunteered on a suicide hotline for nearly 5 years (after surviving a few years of awful depression myself). I did it to give something to others who were suffering. When I helped people and they finished the call feeling more positive/more hopeful/even laughing, yes it did indeed make me feel great and it put a spring in my step. I still have cards and letters that callers had sent to me thanking me for helping them and some even say I saved their lives that day/night. When I'm having a bad day, I read those and they lift me so much.
I don't know, but if that's "self-serving" then so be it.
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A. Go read it again. You clearly missed the point.Wow, that must be a very miserable world you live in where you a) will not trust anybody and b) you have to break down niceness into a equation that proves that everyone you meet is a self-serving pr*ck.
B. It's not my equation. It was published before I was born.
So, by your account, me basing my assessment of a person on their actions, rather than their words, makes me "cynical."I'd rather appreciate it when somebody's nice to me and accept, yes there are horrible people out there but it us up to me how I allow that to influence my view of the world. You give horrible people a LOT of power if you allow them make you so cynical.
Works for me.
I know you didn't write the research but you appear to base your attitude to others based on it (remembering that the original researcher killed himself as a result of his findings
No, you said that you trust nobody until they prove otherwise. Basically guilty until proven innocent. That's life: people can and will screw you over. You get over it and move on - be thankful you're not like them. But to believe everyone you meet is potentially going to screw you over seems very cynical to me and not a very nice world to inhabit.So, by your account, me basing my assessment of a person on their actions, rather than their words, makes me "cynical."
Works for me.0 -
Yeah, me too. I think several readers are confusing my "niceness" with the intent of the article. I question OTHER PEOPLE's niceness.Big, mean & scary??
One of my favorite movie quotes ever is "I want you to be nice, until it's time to not be nice" (Roadhouse - Patrick Swayze mmmmmm)
That's me - I'm nice at first but I really don't trust anyone and once I'm hurt or pissed off I tend to just cut people off and not look back.0 -
So, you were nice, to ensure the survival of others. And they gave you praise, in return in the form of tangible gifts. Which, in turn, bring you happiness and purpose, and a desire to continue... living.I volunteered on a suicide hotline for nearly 5 years (after surviving a few years of awful depression myself). I did it to give something to others who were suffering. When I helped people and they finished the call feeling more positive/more hopeful/even laughing, yes it did indeed make me feel great and it put a spring in my step. I still have cards and letters that callers had sent to me thanking me for helping them and some even say I saved their lives that day/night. When I'm having a bad day, I read those and they lift me so much.
I don't know, but if that's "self-serving" then so be it.
Most behaviors produce more than one result, intentionally or unintentionally. I fail to see the problem created when "being nice" also benefits the actor in addition to the intended beneficiary of "nice behavior".0 -
Interesting. So with that logic, how do you justify parents being nice to their kids and vice versa?0
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Fundamentally, the algorithm establishes scientific proof that people are only "nice" to serve their own needs of survival and propagate their own genetic code.
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By working together as a group, human beings are more likely to thrive and subsequently propagate. Being "nice," is attractive to other with whom one would cooperate and/or breed.
Yes. But what's wrong with that? You breathe for your own good (and to survive), you eat because you want to survive, you interact with others (if you do) because everybody needs interaction with and approval from others. Same goes for sex - you don't have sex for the good of others, but for purely selfish reasons.
So what's wrong with being nice, to benefit yourself? It's no different to anything else we humans do.0 -
Yeah, me too. I think several readers are confusing my "niceness" with the intent of the article. I question OTHER PEOPLE's niceness.Big, mean & scary??
One of my favorite movie quotes ever is "I want you to be nice, until it's time to not be nice" (Roadhouse - Patrick Swayze mmmmmm)
That's me - I'm nice at first but I really don't trust anyone and once I'm hurt or pissed off I tend to just cut people off and not look back.
Do you question a woman's attraction to you (assuming that has happened
because it is inherently a manifestation of her imperative to pass on her genes? Do you question someone who removes their hand from a hot stove? If you start down that road you have to question everything which has some evolutionary root in survival. Not sure that is really worth your time. 0 -
I used to always be "nice" to everyone- that's how I was raised, but I keep people at arms length now because I used to get walked on all the freaking time. Now I see it this way- If you can't accept me for being chubby, with a dry sense of sometimes questionable humor, you will be weeded out early. I don't need friends badly enough to compromise my emotional integrity anymore.
While the Price equation can be applied to many areas of life, it cannot be applied to all areas of life.0 -
So, you're saying, first be a victim, then get over it. And then be thankful you're the victim, and not like them, the aggressor.That's life: people can and will screw you over. You get over it and move on - be thankful you're not like them.
I'm gonna go with "no" on that one. Accepting yourself as the victim, establishes your opponent as the victor.
I'm curious, on which world do you reside, exactly?But to believe everyone you meet is potentially going to screw you over seems very cynical to me and not a very nice world to inhabit.0 -
He killed his self due to the fact he was most likey NOT to have any faith,love or hope in a God who loves him.0
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This question was answered for me many moons ago in the friends episode where Phoebe tries to prove there can be a nice deed that doesn't make you feel good.
Keep up peeps! :laugh:0 -
I am often asked why I'm "big, mean and scary." More specifically, why do I come-off as "intimidating" and/or "indifferent about other people."
The short answer... I distrust everyone until they otherwise prove trustworthy (which for most, never happens).
The longer answer is the Price Equation.
In 1973, George Price, a Harvard professor, chemist and evolutionary statistician established a mathematical covariance equation that definitively calculates altruism and mutability as conjunctive elements of evolution and natural selection.
In lay terms... He proved mathematically that people are only altruistic (aka "nice") to survive and serve their own best interests.
Fundamentally, the algorithm establishes scientific proof that people are only "nice" to serve their own needs of survival and propagate their own genetic code.
The theory is extremely complicated from a mathematical perspective, however fundamentally, it's easy to understand when one boils-down the premise to the old adage "strength in numbers."
By working together as a group, human beings are more likely to thrive and subsequently propagate. Being "nice," is attractive to other with whom one would cooperate and/or breed.
Example: When a woman finds a man attractive, she does so because that male displays physical and/or mental characteristics she would like her offspring to inherit. Thus, in most cases, that female would be "nice" to the potential mate.
Very rarely would a woman find a man attractive, and commence to beating that male with a stick.
Thus, thousands of years ago, tribes were formed. They shared food, water, social conventions, and other basic instruments of conveyance. They also bred with each other.
Tribes became towns... towns became cities... governments... countries.... entire societies... etc.
All that said, the core issue remains true to this day... People are "nice," because they "want something from you" and/or it serves their genetic agenda.
It's been proven, mathematically.
Something to ponder on your way to Sunday school this morning.
Keep being awesome.
Update
For those posting things like, "Well sure, if you look at scientifically..." George Price killed himself two years after this paper was published because he couldn't handle the fact that he eliminated the notion of "humanity," with a proven scientific principle.
By extension, everything we do is self-serving. Being nice makes one feel good and garners people being nice back. Being stand-offish and harsh keeps people at bay. Everyone gets the reactions they want. It's neither a good or bad thing, just the nature of life. 0 -
I try to treat people the same way I want to be treated.(Golden Rule) I also agree that this is selfish, i.e., I want people to be nice to me, therefore, I am nice to them. Yeah, I know, vicious cycle! Regardless of whether or not I agree with OP, I always enjoy reading his wizbits!0
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I am often asked why I'm "big, mean and scary." More specifically, why do I come-off as "intimidating" and/or "indifferent about other people."
The short answer... I distrust everyone until they otherwise prove trustworthy (which for most, never happens).
The longer answer is the Price Equation.
In 1973, George Price, a Harvard professor, chemist and evolutionary statistician established a mathematical covariance equation that definitively calculates altruism and mutability as conjunctive elements of evolution and natural selection.
In lay terms... He proved mathematically that people are only altruistic (aka "nice") to survive and serve their own best interests.
Fundamentally, the algorithm establishes scientific proof that people are only "nice" to serve their own needs of survival and propagate their own genetic code.
The theory is extremely complicated from a mathematical perspective, however fundamentally, it's easy to understand when one boils-down the premise to the old adage "strength in numbers."
By working together as a group, human beings are more likely to thrive and subsequently propagate. Being "nice," is attractive to other with whom one would cooperate and/or breed.
Example: When a woman finds a man attractive, she does so because that male displays physical and/or mental characteristics she would like her offspring to inherit. Thus, in most cases, that female would be "nice" to the potential mate.
Very rarely would a woman find a man attractive, and commence to beating that male with a stick.
Thus, thousands of years ago, tribes were formed. They shared food, water, social conventions, and other basic instruments of conveyance. They also bred with each other.
Tribes became towns... towns became cities... governments... countries.... entire societies... etc.
All that said, the core issue remains true to this day... People are "nice," because they "want something from you" and/or it serves their genetic agenda.
It's been proven, mathematically.
Something to ponder on your way to Sunday school this morning.
Keep being awesome.
Update
For those posting things like, "Well sure, if you look at scientifically..." George Price killed himself two years after this paper was published because he couldn't handle the fact that he eliminated the notion of "humanity," with a proven scientific principle.
I beat my husband with a stick all the time, and I find him attractive......
We can argue everything comes back to sex. But what I disagree with is that this is our humanity overall. I think we are slowly evolving to care less about the sexual/offspring benefit anymore. Not to say that it's not still an important current underneath the waters, but when you consider the rants that humanity is becoming more obese, then theoretically we have less attractive people, which means that for mates we are likely looking at more than just physical appearance. And I do believe this is why there are so many wide ranges of what women find attractive. I'm not into ripped muscles, or really any of the features that I'm supposed to find attractive and beneficial for reproduction. But there is no such thing as a blanket theory that applies to every human on the planet. (Thankfully. Life would be boring if that was true!)0 -
I learned about this in an under grad class... I remember the professor introducing it by saying how much he loved it.
Then several self-righteous people tried to defend their true, pure altruism. He just said, "Whatever helps you sleep at night."
Love it.0 -
So what you're saying is that you're"big, mean and scary."
and"intimidating" and/or "indifferent about other people."
because you're consciously rejecting a proven mathematical principle that being nice is to your advantage? Doesn't seem wise. I don't get it.0 -
I'm a scientist and I strongly disagree... It is true that the meaning of life is to protect your genetic code. Our bodies were built for this purpose. However, no scientific equation can modelize humanity, there are way too much factors and such an equation would be so overestimated that it would not be representative. I'm genuinly nice because I care for others and their feelings. I want people to feel good. What do you think of people who gave their life to save a friend/family member/society/animal.?? A friend doesn't carry your genetic code.
* oh..and the fact that he killed himself because he was devastated that humanity doesn't exist proved that his equation did not work....0 -
"Being nice" benefits the ENTIRE GROUP, not simply the person performing "nice behavior". If it didn't, we wouldn't continue as a social species.
This - at least to some extent. When I help someone out, I do so because they're a fellow human in need of help. Although I help them regardless of whether they are going to reproduce, so it's not specifically about continuing the species. I have worked helping elderly people, who are about to die, and so logically there is nothing to be gained in terms of continuing the species. I am kind to them because they are vulnerable and in need of help. I have worked helping severely disabled children, many of whom won't live long, so again there is nothing to be gained in terms of species survival. I simply want to enhance their quality of life.
I think part of it is empathy. We feel happy when someone else is happy. And we feel good about ourselves if we've helped make someone happy. It's partly a feeling of connection. And most people like to feel that they are good people, and that their life has been worthwhile in terms of doing good in the world. You could still call that self-serving, of course - people are motivated by wanting their lives to be meaningful.
People are often very influenced by others though, and their values often come from the general values of a group, rather than from within - I observe a lot of people are nice in general, but if there is one person to whom everyone is mean, and if it's seen as quite acceptable to be mean to that person, then they'll also be mean to that person. It doesn't aid social survival if you are different and nice to that person, because you are then implicitly criticising the rest of the group, and it makes you unpopular. So people often only do this if they are already so popular that they can't lose social standing, or if they were never part of the group in the first place, so they have nothing to lose.
I don't really follow the norms in many ways, because I'm autistic, so my brain is wired a bit differently. I don't experience group mentality. I spend a lot of time figuring out others though, and working out their motivations, and their apparent inconsistencies.0
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