The Science Behind "Nice" People

duell55

This is long, but hear me out!
It would appear as though Price demonstrates that humans are social creatures and have adopted a “herd” mentality. I imagine this is very true, especially with the rise of early humanity.

However, there may be a mistaken assumption at work here. Scientist have to make certain assumptions about their work ex: an external world really exists, I can trust my senses, and so forth. These are all good and necessary assumptions.

One of those assumptions is methodological naturalism. Science does not assume that God. The supernatural, or the flying spaghetti monster is responsible for the way things are (a perfectly valid assumption). However, naturalism as a world-view (all that exists is material, all events are determined, there is no God) tends be adopted by the many in the intellectual and scientific community. Richard Dawkins who is a famously militant naturalist, stays that we are all the random collection of matter plus time plus chance and we are all dancing to our DNA, there is no such thing as free will.

So when you say, “When a woman finds a man attractive, she does so because that male displays physical and/or mental characteristics she would like her offspring to inherit,” this assumes that there is no agency or free will on the part of that woman. We automatically MUST act according to our genes and are completely unable to do otherwise.

Is that really the case? I don’t think so. If it were, then there is no objective right or wrong. We would have no basis to say something like “torturing babies for fun is wrong,” and not merely distasteful. If I tortured a baby, it was simply because my genes made me and I had no other choice. On naturalism, there is no basis for ethics. That is why I believe only on the basis of or the existence of God can we have transcendent, objective right and wrong.

Price was a Christian and I am as well. I wonder if he was not able to account for free will in his philosophy of science.

I would also hesitate to use Price’s suicide as evidence in favor of his research. I believe it doesn’t prove much other than he was emotionally and mentally in need of help.

GorillaEsq

Au contraire. You used it to justify your own anti-social behavior.

Read it again.

opuntia

The Price Equation is a mathematical algorithm to predict evolutionary constructs.

The same equation can used to predict genetic precursors for disease.

I never mentioned anything about psychology, at all, whatsoever.

You were talking about human behaviour, and the reasons behind it. That falls into the category of psychology, whether or not you use the term 'psychology' or not, and it remains in the category of psychology even when you apply statistical theorems to it. Nothing has been 'proven' about human behaviour in this way. All you can say is that there is evidence to suggest a theory. However, obviously in this case, there is contradictory evidence. You can predict, but the predictions will not always be correct. And even if they were, this would still be a theory. The Price equation isn't a proof. It's a theorem, also called the Price theorem. And the results that derive from it are not a proof about human behaviour.

_VoV

I bet you don't do much pro bono work, I'm guessing.

What is this "pro bono" thing of which you speak? (Ha.)

Actually, I do way more than I should... Especially when children are involved.

Again, this was much less a discussion of my "niceness," and more a discussion of why I question strangers claiming to be "nice."

Okay, so you do pro bono work involving children, which makes me guess you do some family law. That would explain why you are jaded about people being 'nice' and that people who are 'nice' have ulterior motives. People are rarely at their best hashing out custody issues and division of property.

There are people who have foul attitudes about other humans. They have utilitarian attitudes and look to 'mine' everything they see. It's only natural that people who have this worldview would project it onto others. I'm sure you've had a client or two with this particular mindset.

jesusHchris

Everything we do serves out own interest. However, sometimes that interest is simply feeling good inside. I do nice things for other people so that I can smile, whether or not anyone else ever notices. I don't enjoy the way it makes me feel to walk around not trusting everyone, so I don't do it very often.

Of course, I'm not always nice. Sometimes it feels good to be a d*** too.

Edit: The "science" here is the serotonin and dopamine we are rewarded as a result of carrying out functions that serve to prolong the survival of our species, more or less.

Dave198lbs

Au contraire. You used it to justify your own anti-social behavior.

nailed it.

MaraDiaz

Makes me wish I'd taken up 'sneaky' instead.

I wonder if it's too late? Because being nice sure as hell never got me anywhere good.

Josie_lifting_cats

I beat my husband with a stick all the time, and I find him attractive......

I think I have an obligation as an attorney to tell that... you're probably committing a crime there... just sayin.

I think I had the wording wrong. Perhaps I meant...

...wait, nevermind. That's inappropriate. :ohwell:

stefauntie

I pretty much trust the idea that being social or "nice" is a genetic thing that's hardwired for survival.. makes sense for a social species. So if it's for survival, I trust THAT type of being nice, and am supportive and unsuspicious. The bit that becomes not trustworthy, is the niceness that is not legitimate, that is not only for personal gain, but is at the detriment of someone else.

And I think THAT is more of a character flaw than genetic coding. Otherwise everyone would be the false nice instead of the "real" one.
Obviously I'm not a scientist, I'm just interested in what motivates people to be who they are and how they are. Altruism does benefit the person who is giving..it makes us feel good and that helps us live longer. I'm not saying that's the motivation (it likely unconsciously is though), but it is the result. Even giving a present or surprise to a friend... seeing that person happy makes US happy.. and chemically that does something good to the brain.

I think for the most part, that the thread is talking about the genetic nice and the underhanded nice as one thing. And while they may start in the same place, I think it's the personality of the giver that changes it to something nasty.
That's my 2 cents from Canada... not sure what that is American today

fleur_de_lis19

I'm thinking this is right about 75% of the time. Sometimes im just nice... whats wrong with that?

GorillaEsq

Not if he consents she's not. There are a number of legal precedents for consenting to assault--professional boxing being the most obvious.

I can promise you, there are no legal precedents in which someone "consents to assault." Mainly because the legal definition of "assault," is battery, or the threat of battery, without consent.

The "precedent" you're attempting to quote (badly by the way) is known as "assumption of risk." "Assumption of risk" is a tort defense which prohibits a plaintiff from recovery against a tortfeasor upon the defendant's demonstration that the plaintiff voluntarily and knowingly assumed the risk associated with a dangerous activity that subsequently caused damage or injury.

Again, none of this has anything to do with the discussion.

Just out of curiosity, why do you feel the need to argue with me and opine on topics you clearly do not understand?

GorillaEsq

Actually Einstein changed his theory of relativiy to coincide with this.

It is now: E = MC + F-CK YOU

Ha. That made me laugh.

FlaxMilk

Is it just me, or do some of the "nice people" on this thread, who are offended by the idea that their "niceness" could potentially be boiled-down to a mathematical equation, come-off as "not so nice?" Hahaha

"How DARE you say my niceness is just to serve my own interests!!! I'm gonna go to your house and beat you up, so you'll stop saying things I don't LIKE! You mutha#^&#$!!!"

Irony can be so ironic sometimes.

I think it's just about impossible to argue that being nice doesn't involve some gain for the person being nice. Even if they are being fake nice, there is some gain in there somewhere. Like I said earlier, when I am nice even to people who annoy me, it's because I want to avoid the feelings of guilt and/or shame that come with going against my values (that people are all people who all have stories that explain why we are the way we are, and all people are deserving of compassion and dignity). So the gain for me is avoiding the guilt/shame. But again, it's not the whole story. I could willfully be thoughtless and move through life charming and taking advantage of people. Some people who have antisocial traits are extremely charming and well-liked and exploit others for personal gain without being "found out."

I don't believe Price's theory adequately explains empathy and compassion--people could survive just as easily making social contracts--"We'll make a baby, because we're both hot and smart, and there will be a hot and smart person in the world who will make us look good and do our chores until he is old enough to make his own hot and smart baby." "We're both unattractive and dumb, so we'll make an unattractive and dumb baby together so we won't be alone and so we can have some physical pleasure." "I'll listen to you vent so you'll listen to me." "I'll get the food if you cook it." In fact, much of the employment world works this way--"I'll pay you so you keep me out of prison." There's no pretense that people are doing that to be nice.

ahviendha

I am often asked why I'm "big, mean and scary." More specifically, why do I come-off as "intimidating" and/or "indifferent about other people."

The short answer... I distrust everyone until they otherwise prove trustworthy (which for most, never happens).

The longer answer is the Price Equation.

In 1973, George Price, a Harvard professor, chemist and evolutionary statistician established a mathematical covariance equation that definitively calculates altruism and mutability as conjunctive elements of evolution and natural selection.

In lay terms... He proved mathematically that people are only altruistic (aka "nice") to survive and serve their own best interests.

Fundamentally, the algorithm establishes scientific proof that people are only "nice" to serve their own needs of survival and propagate their own genetic code.

The theory is extremely complicated from a mathematical perspective, however fundamentally, it's easy to understand when one boils-down the premise to the old adage "strength in numbers."

By working together as a group, human beings are more likely to thrive and subsequently propagate. Being "nice," is attractive to other with whom one would cooperate and/or breed.

Example: When a woman finds a man attractive, she does so because that male displays physical and/or mental characteristics she would like her offspring to inherit. Thus, in most cases, that female would be "nice" to the potential mate.

Very rarely would a woman find a man attractive, and commence to beating that male with a stick.

Thus, thousands of years ago, tribes were formed. They shared food, water, social conventions, and other basic instruments of conveyance. They also bred with each other.

Tribes became towns... towns became cities... governments... countries.... entire societies... etc.

All that said, the core issue remains true to this day... People are "nice," because they "want something from you" and/or it serves their genetic agenda.

It's been proven, mathematically.

Something to ponder on your way to Sunday school this morning.

Keep being awesome.

Update
For those posting things like, "Well sure, if you look at scientifically..." George Price killed himself two years after this paper was published because he couldn't handle the fact that he eliminated the notion of "humanity," with a proven scientific principle.

Haha, I knew it!

I sometimes feel like a faker for being nice at work, because I know I'm only being nice to further my own career and make important social contacts within my department.

Then again, I've always had a scientific mind. Great read!

GorillaEsq

You were talking about human behaviour, and the reasons behind it. That falls into the category of psychology, whether or not you use the term 'psychology' or not, and it remains in the category of psychology even when you apply statistical theorems to it. Nothing has been 'proven' about human behaviour in this way. All you can say is that there is evidence to suggest a theory. However, obviously in this case, there is contradictory evidence. You can predict, but the predictions will not always be correct. And even if they were, this would still be a theory. The Price equation isn't a proof. It's a theorem, also called the Price theorem. And the results that derive from it are not a proof about human behaviour.

Ok, I see what you're saying now. So, would it be acceptable for me to simply question other people's motives, until I'm sure of their intentions?

LeggyAmericanGirl

People are mean b/c its easier to be mean than nice. Its hard to have an open heart and to give to others. I choose to be nice, you mean fookers can stick together. yaya. I know i will be reported for attacking others. HOW NICE. lol

FlaxMilk

Ok, I see what you're saying now. So, would it be acceptable for me to simply question other people's motives, until I'm sure of their intentions?

I think that's healthy enough, as long as it doesn't consume you or cause you to go all attorney on the person being nice. Caution is well advised in the world.

MandaPaigeSparkles88

I am generally and typically a nice person. You be nice to me and I'll be nice to you. It's not that I want anything from you when I am being nice I just like it. Now break my trust and you will see the biggest b!tch ever. But for the most part I am nice and try to be nice to people and in return I want them to be nice to me. Yea I know I am asking a lot. lol

stefauntie

""Ok, I see what you're saying now. So, would it be acceptable for me to simply question other people's motives, until I'm sure of their intentions? """

hahaha... LOVE the re-wording

Topsking2010

This is a load of crap. If you're so mean WTH do you have 113 friends? Because you want attention like everyone else.

neverstray

This is one of those theories where you're like, "OK, so now what?"

While some might be astonished by its brilliance, there's really no outcome. Meh!

Also, I would challenge this a bit. Someone said something about Maslow, which really has nothing to do with this and has been proven to mostly be BS. I don't know why it's still in text books. It's not true because it's not a linear relationship. But, when it comes to game theory, how would this play a part? I can see defects. Also, is it only assuming that people are rational? In today's society, more people behave irrationally more often than probably anytime in history, therefore it would be difficult applying this to modern behavior.

Guines9

People ARE nice because they are spiritually so, God created. "And God saw everything that He had made and it was only Good."

GorillaEsq

""Ok, I see what you're saying now. So, would it be acceptable for me to simply question other people's motives, until I'm sure of their intentions? """

hahaha... LOVE the re-wording

Haha...shh. I'm gonna address that in a minute.

Guines9

LOL LOVE IT!

wild_wild_life

You were talking about human behaviour, and the reasons behind it. That falls into the category of psychology, whether or not you use the term 'psychology' or not, and it remains in the category of psychology even when you apply statistical theorems to it. Nothing has been 'proven' about human behaviour in this way. All you can say is that there is evidence to suggest a theory. However, obviously in this case, there is contradictory evidence. You can predict, but the predictions will not always be correct. And even if they were, this would still be a theory. The Price equation isn't a proof. It's a theorem, also called the Price theorem. And the results that derive from it are not a proof about human behaviour.

Ok, I see what you're saying now. So, would it be acceptable for me to simply question other people's motives, until I'm sure of their intentions?

Do you believe that people aren't truly, genuinely nice but are just acting nice out of their own self interest?

That's not how I interpret the theorem. Being nice is in our self interest, so feelings and rewards have developed to encourage that behavior. It's no accident that we "feel good" when we help other people. It's a built in reward which developed because getting along with others is in everyone's interest, including ours.

I think to look suspiciously on nice bahavior based on this theory is ascribing an ulterior motive to people that they really don't consciously have.

Hakarn

Actually, it's one of the most highly accepted scientific theorems in history. Google "Price Equation."

Math only makes scientific models. The only way to prove a mathematical model is to collect real samples in a population. Any real mathematician or scientist will tell you that there are exceptions to a principle when you collect samples. I am not saying that this theorem is true or false, but I will say with 100% certainty that there are exceptions.

I will not claim to be an exception. I am very cynical of people and realize that even my best friends could screw me over if the circumstances were right. However, I do not want to have kids of my own - I would rather adopt. And I am a scientist and teacher focusing on genetic diseases. Please tell me how a cynical person that doesn't want to pass on his DNA get into science to cure others? Does that fit into the equations?

barkin43

Is it just me, or do some of the "nice people" on this thread, who are offended by the idea that their "niceness" could potentially be boiled-down to a mathematical equation, come-off as "not so nice?" Hahaha

"How DARE you say my niceness is just to serve my own interests!!! I'm gonna go to your house and beat you up, so you'll stop saying things I don't LIKE! You mutha#^&#$!!!"

Irony can be so ironic sometimes.

I fear this thread will be going the way of so many intelligent/fun threads. Someone is gonna get riled and report the post, and the mods will agree that someone is offended and lock 'er up! Stop offending each other, you guys! Everyone should agree with everyone else! Wait...is that even possible? Ya'll behave now! Above all, be nice!

barkin43

People ARE nice because they are spiritually so, God created. "And God saw everything that He had made and it was only Good."

Shhh! You're gonna get this thread locked for discussing religion! And I'm probably gonna get warned or kicked off for warning you!

GorillaEsq

Ok, I see what you're saying now. So, would it be acceptable for me to simply question other people's motives, until I'm sure of their intentions?

I think that's healthy enough, as long as it doesn't consume you or cause you to go all attorney on the person being nice. Caution is well advised in the world.

I'm gonna apologize in advance because I set you up with that on purpose. (In fairness, I did ask you to go read it again.)

In my original post, I said...

The short answer... I distrust everyone until they otherwise prove trustworthy (which for most, never happens).

Which you affirm is "healthy enough." When it comes to strangers, I'm not rude. I'm indifferent.

As for me being big, scary and intimidating... I would be such if I were carrying a bouquet of roses, wearing a sundress and singing the theme song from Barney & Friends.... I'm a 6'3, 270 pound, meathead, combatives & firearms instructor, that went to law school.

My physique and disposition don't exactly scream, "Hey there friendly-friend... let's spoon."

leejayem

What about all those people who spend their whole lives giving to others without expecting anything in return? I am one of those "nice" people you speak of & I can assure you I am not nice to people for my own gain. I believe being kind & loving towards others is a fundamental human calling. What about mothers? I am certainly not experiencing any personal gain at the moment (1am) as I sit & comfort my sick child. Yes, humans are innately selfish & we can function that way if we choose to, but we can also be liberated & live in the freedom of Love. It seems to me that you need to get out & experience the world - there are plenty of genuinely "nice" people around!! It's also a little hard to take seriously a theory that has been put forward by a manic depressant.:flowerforyou: