The Science Behind "Nice" People
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You're only big because you're carrying about 40-50 lbs of extra body fat on you.0
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I often take life advice from people who kill themselves. It's science guys, cmon!
As stated many times before in this thread: correlation != causation.
Price's Equation can be applied to a LOT of genetic traits, not just "kindness" which I am skeptical of even being quantifiable enough to refer to as a "genetic trait."
And your assertion that Price killed himself because he found his own "proof" too depressing to live with is a pretty large distortion. From wikipedia (not the greatest source, I realize, but still):
Helping the homeless
Unable to accept the selfish reasoning for kindness found in his own mathematical theory of altruism[citation needed] Price began showing an ever increasing amount (in both quality and quantity) of random kindness to complete strangers. As such Price dedicated the latter part of his life to helping the homeless, often inviting homeless people to live in his house. Sometimes, when the people in his house became a distraction, he slept in his office at the Galton Laboratory. He also gave up everything to help alcoholics, yet as he helped them they stole his belongings causing him to fall into depression.[citation needed]
He was eventually thrown out of his rented house due to a construction project in the area, which made him unhappy because he could no longer provide housing for the homeless. He moved to various squats in the North London area, and became depressed over Christmas, 1974.[citation needed]
[edit]Death
Price committed suicide on January 6, 1975, using a pair of nail scissors to cut his own carotid artery. His body was identified by his close colleague Bill Hamilton.[11] Friends said he committed suicide because of despondency over his inability to continue helping the homeless.
A memorial service was held for Price in Euston (not in a church). The only persons present from academia were Hamilton and Maynard Smith, the other few mourners being those who had come to know him through his community work. He is buried in an unmarked grave in St. Pancras' Cemetery.
Bolding mine.0 -
You named your MFP account after the son of God, and the subsequent catalyst for one of the largest religions on the planet.I'm not sure what your argument is. Does my screen name validate your constant need to prove yourself, or is it easier just to deflect?
Yes. Clearly it is my ego that is misguided here.
You're just projecting your own opinions.
A Jewish person reading his title will just think that the guy likes carpentry.0 -
Plus, it's against the rules, and I always follow the rules.
Interesting.
Your first post made me laugh out loud.
The Price Equation is not a theory and it is a mathematical description only. The predictive quality that you are trying to induce out of it is arguably misplaced meaning. You are actually confusing it with Hamilton's work. His paper on Fisher's equation which is were the Price Equation is first presented does not even mention altruism but fitness.
BTW, he committed suicide not because he gave up on humanity or felt his work disproved anything but because he could no longer help the homeless and he had been dispossessed of his place. He was going through a depression.0 -
That does sound like a nice world.I'm curious, on which world do you reside, exactly?A world where every single stranger I bump into is not a potential threat...
Unfortunately, the world I live in has Department of Justice statistics that show 1 out of 3 women will be sexually assaulted at some point in their life. The same statistic say that 8 out of every 10 Americans will be a victim of a crime before the age of 40.
But, lets not focus on the crime element... that's saddy-sad. Let's talk about happy things.
Like... our Society!!! Which of course, is the greatest free-market, capitalistic society ever! And it's based entirely on competition. And nothing says, "Hey, let me be completely open and honest with you" like competition, especially when that competition dictates whether or not you'll be able to feed your children.... Ok, so maybe not society... but...
Religion!!! There's never been anything deceptive or "covered up" when it comes to reli... ooooh wait...
Ok... how about Sports! Sports are just a way to have a good, innocent time... Woo hoo... I mean seriously, when was the last time a coach ever deceived anyone and committed a crime against a.... oooh... ok ... um...
Politicians! They... yeah, ok, no.
School!!... Now, it can never be said that a teacher, one of the most trusted and revered professions on the planet, would ever violate the trust of a.... well crap.
Screw it.
Can I come live in your world??0 -
I'm curious, on which world do you reside, exactly?
That does sound like a nice world.A world where every single stranger I bump into is not a potential threat...
Unfortunately, the world I live in has Department of Justice statistics that show 1 out of 3 women will be sexually assaulted at some point in their life. The same statistic say that 8 out of every 10 Americans will be a victim of a crime before the age of 40.
But, lets not focus on the crime element... that's saddy-sad. Let's talk about happy things.
Like... our Society!!! Which of course, is the greatest free-market, capitalistic society ever! And it's based entirely on competition. And nothing says, "Hey, let me be completely open and honest with you" like competition, especially when that competition dictates whether or not you'll be able to feed your children.... Ok, so maybe not society... but...
Religion!!! There's never been anything deceptive or "covered up" when it comes to reli... ooooh wait...
Ok... how about Sports! Sports are just a way to have a good, innocent time... Woo hoo... I mean seriously, when was the last time a coach ever deceived anyone and committed a crime against a.... oooh... ok ... um...
Politicians! They... yeah, ok, no.
School!!... Now, it can never be said that a teacher, one of the most trusted and revered professions on the planet, would ever violate the trust of a.... well crap.
Screw it.
Can I come live in your world??
I get what you are saying here, but I thought we were talking about the psychology of 'niceness' not the nature of societal design. Individuals are widely known to act differently from those same individuals in groups. Also, things like sympathy and empathy are largely internal to the psyche, and cannot be observed. They can only be accessed by asking motives, and of course people can lie. But, sometimes, they can also tell the truth. Perhaps, you are beyond trusting that.0 -
That does sound like a nice world.
A world where every single stranger I bump into is not a potential threat...I'm curious, on which world do you reside, exactly?
Unfortunately, the world I live in has Department of Justice statistics that show 1 out of 3 women will be sexually assaulted at some point in their life. The same statistic say that 8 out of every 10 Americans will be a victim of a crime before the age of 40.
But, lets not focus on the crime element... that's saddy-sad. Let's talk about happy things.
Like... our Society!!! Which of course, is the greatest free-market, capitalistic society ever! And it's based entirely on competition. And nothing says, "Hey, let me be completely open and honest with you" like competition, especially when that competition dictates whether or not you'll be able to feed your children.... Ok, so maybe not society... but...
Religion!!! There's never been anything deceptive or "covered up" when it comes to reli... ooooh wait...
Ok... how about Sports! Sports are just a way to have a good, innocent time... Woo hoo... I mean seriously, when was the last time a coach ever deceived anyone and committed a crime against a.... oooh... ok ... um...
Politicians! They... yeah, ok, no.
School!!... Now, it can never be said that a teacher, one of the most trusted and revered professions on the planet, would ever violate the trust of a.... well crap.
Screw it.
Can I come live in your world??
yaye fear mongering and over-inflated statistics.
Someone stole the welcome mat off my doorstep. Damn being a victim of crime is terrible. I best lock myself away and never interact with society. By your logic, no women should be allowed out alone because something bad might happen. Locking up potential victims is backwards logic. You rather punish the victim than try to change society to a place where there is less crime. Avoidance isn't a solution. It's a cop out. Trying to change yourself instead of the problem is a temporary measure that will always fail in the long run.0 -
Wow, I would love to read more about this. I'm completely intrigued. Going in, I would not describe myself as mean and scary like you have. I feel like a portray myself as 'nice', but secretly my bull**** meter is cranked way up, at least on 17. I am very distrusting. I put on a nice face and sometimes regret it. Some people don't deserve that, based on their actions.
On another note, I thought scientific theories could only be disproved, and they were allowed to hold until that point might come. Or do you call the theory proven mathematically? Since it is based on a human concept, but 'proved' with math? Reminds me of logic class in college!0 -
I would find that a very difficult way to live my life.I am often asked why I'm "big, mean and scary." More specifically, why do I come-off as "intimidating" and/or "indifferent about other people."
The short answer... I distrust everyone until they otherwise prove trustworthy (which for most, never happens).0 -
Unfortunately, the world I live in has Department of Justice statistics that show 1 out of 3 women will be sexually assaulted at some point in their life. The same statistic say that 8 out of every 10 Americans will be a victim of a crime before the age of 40.
To be fair, the majority of these women are sexually assaulted by someone they know, not by a stranger. And being a victim of a crime has little to do with whether or not you see strangers as potential threats. Often the crime is vandalism or burglary, which generally isn't controlled by distrusting strangers.
And realistically, the majority of people meet thousands of people, and the vast majority of those people don't screw them over. If I am a victim of a crime (actually, I am, because some lads in my neighbourhood vandalised my fence) the person/people who committed the crime are a negligible percentage of the people I've met. The vast majority of people don't commit anti-social behaviour, in part because of the self-preserving reason that they don't want to go to jail!0 -
Actually, I've been talking about societal design from the very beginning. Literally.I get what you are saying here, but I thought we were talking about the psychology of 'niceness' not the nature of societal design. Individuals are widely known to act differently from those same individuals in groups. Also, things like sympathy and empathy are largely internal to the psyche, and cannot be observed. They can only be accessed by asking motives, and of course people can lie. But, sometimes, they can also tell the truth. Perhaps, you are beyond trusting that.
The psychology of this thread as taken on a life of it's own. Freud would be proud.
My favorite thus far was the guy a few posts up, whom I've never met nor engaged, that was clearly disturbed by my references to my physique; thus he decided to insult my physique, in the same discussion thread about "niceness," which morphed into a discussion about the psychology of strangers.
You can't make that stuff up. Hahaha.0 -
That is absolutely and completely true. Now... let's discuss "trustworthiness"To be fair, the majority of these women are sexually assaulted by someone they know, not by a stranger.
(Ok, I set you up for that one too. Sorry. Well, not you specifically, but I knew it was coming)
YES! Keep going! Whyyyy don't a vast majority of people screw over other people???And realistically, the majority of people meet thousands of people, and the vast majority of those people don't screw them over.
(I will bring this full circle if it kills me.)0 -
Forgive me for sticking my opinion in here without reading the whole thread . The way I see it, everything can be explained by evolution. We exist in our present state because lots of things worked. So what? If I am kind to others even if it costs me in some other way then my ride through life is that much more enjoyable and hopefully more successful (which ultimately means I benefit). Selfish? If you think about it for long enough, well yes, it is ultimately selfish. Is that a bad thing? I don't think so.0
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Actually, I've been talking about societal design from the very beginning. Literally.I get what you are saying here, but I thought we were talking about the psychology of 'niceness' not the nature of societal design. Individuals are widely known to act differently from those same individuals in groups. Also, things like sympathy and empathy are largely internal to the psyche, and cannot be observed. They can only be accessed by asking motives, and of course people can lie. But, sometimes, they can also tell the truth. Perhaps, you are beyond trusting that.
The psychology of this thread as taken on a life of it's own. Freud would be proud.
My favorite thus far was the guy a few posts up, whom I've never met nor engaged, that was clearly disturbed by my references to my physique; thus he decided to insult my physique, in the same discussion thread about "niceness," which morphed into a discussion about the psychology of strangers.
You can't make that stuff up. Hahaha.
Just because you change your username, doesn't mean that people forget who you are.0 -
Actually, I've been talking about societal design from the very beginning. Literally.I get what you are saying here, but I thought we were talking about the psychology of 'niceness' not the nature of societal design. Individuals are widely known to act differently from those same individuals in groups. Also, things like sympathy and empathy are largely internal to the psyche, and cannot be observed. They can only be accessed by asking motives, and of course people can lie. But, sometimes, they can also tell the truth. Perhaps, you are beyond trusting that.
The psychology of this thread as taken on a life of it's own. Freud would be proud.
My favorite thus far was the guy a few posts up, whom I've never met nor engaged, that was clearly disturbed by my references to my physique; thus he decided to insult my physique, in the same discussion thread about "niceness," which morphed into a discussion about the psychology of strangers.
You can't make that stuff up. Hahaha.
Yes, for sure I would say that comment is unkind (not 'nice'). I think people are angry with the cartoonish way you are approaching this subject.
You color society, yourself and others in broad strokes, and cite science intended to debase the motives underlying human kindness. I understand what you are saying, but might you concede that there are genuine acts of kindness whose primary motives are altruistic. I know you see the rough underbelly of society in the work that you do, which tends to make you see an otherwise 'nice' person differently than others of us who don't see Machiavellian horrors so up close and personal.0 -
The short answer... I distrust everyone until they otherwise prove trustworthy (which for most, never happens).
I'm curious - in what way do you distrust them? I mean, realistically, there are levels of trust.
I wouldn't leave my purse sitting around in a public place, because of course there are people out there who will happily steal it. And I imagine most people would say the same. I also don't leave my front door unlocked when I go out, because obviously potentially someone could break in. And most people are the same in this.
But when I casually meet someone, say at the bus stop, and they talk to me, I talk back - I'll smile and do small talk. This doesn't mean I'd entrust them with my life - I don't know them - but I'm happy to be friendly and pass the time of day with them. Potentially they could then be rude to me and hurt my feelings - but this is unlikely, as they'd have nothing to gain by this. And I'd have nothing to gain by being mean and scary, or ignoring them. It'd be pointless.
So I'm just curious what exactly you aren't trusting about, and in what way your distrust manifests. Most people are a little bit guarded with strangers (unless they have certain neurological disabilities - but then we teach people with such disabilities to be more cautious and not to automatically trust strangers, just as we teach children). But being a little guarded with strangers doesn't stop people being generally friendly and kind, if they are so inclined.0 -
Actually, nothing you posted was referenced, nor had anything to do with anything that was posted, anywhere.yaye fear mongering and over-inflated statistics.
Someone stole the welcome mat off my doorstep. Damn being a victim of crime is terrible. I best lock myself away and never interact with society. By your logic, no women should be allowed out alone because something bad might happen. Locking up potential victims is backwards logic. You rather punish the victim than try to change society to a place where there is less crime. Avoidance isn't a solution. It's a cop out. Trying to change yourself instead of the problem is a temporary measure that will always fail in the long run.0 -
Hmm. I thought I was plain and forgettable. Weird.Just because you change your username, doesn't mean that people forget who you are.0 -
Hmm. I thought I was plain and forgettable. Weird.Just because you change your username, doesn't mean that people forget who you are.
I would say you have a hard time pulling your punches, Hudson.0 -
I always question motivation. The word "trust" is too broad (someone mentioned that earlier).The short answer... I distrust everyone until they otherwise prove trustworthy (which for most, never happens).
I'm curious - in what way do you distrust them? I mean, realistically, there are levels of trust.0 -
I've been told that, yes.
Hmm. I thought I was plain and forgettable. Weird.Just because you change your username, doesn't mean that people forget who you are.
I would say you have a hard time pulling your punches, Hudson.0 -
I actually read this after teaching my Sunday school class. I believe we are called to be kind to people because we are all made in the image and likeness of God. I find your way of thinking to be cynical and profoundly sad. I'm so glad I do not shre your worldview of humanity.Something to ponder on your way to Sunday school this morning.
I also don't find you scary and intimidating. I find you quite arrogant and pessimistic. I believe you are probably very insecure, which makes me want to be nice/kind to you- as difficult as I find it. I hope you have an awesome day and your view of humanity changes. Peace.0 -
YES! Keep going! Whyyyy don't a vast majority of people screw over other people???
(I will bring this full circle if it kills me.)
Well, if you'd read my whole post, I did keep going and I did explain this.
I have never disagreed with you about people having self-serving motives - the survival instinct is strong (although not the only instinct).
I just don't see it as simplistically as you seem to. You are saying some daft things sometimes, maybe just to get a reaction, and maybe because you don't know as much about this as you are pretending to.0 -
You are saying some daft things sometimes, maybe just to get a reaction, and maybe because you don't know as much about this as you are pretending to.
He doesn't, and I'm not doing his homework for him. 0 -
I actually read this after teaching my Sunday school class. I believe we are called to be kind to people because we are all made in the image and likeness of God. I find your way of thinking to be cynical and profoundly sad. I'm so glad I do not shre your worldview of humanity.
To be fair, Jesus also states that we shouldn't trust other people, but should only trust God. But this is one aspect where the OP's logic seems a bit flawed. Not putting our trust in other people doesn't automatically mean we should be unfriendly and unkind to them. We are all flawed, and we all let people down sometimes - to trust a person to never hurt us is unrealistic. But that doesn't mean we can't form friendships and be kind to each other.0 -
I love me some radio lab.OP, you might find this series interesting -
http://www.radiolab.org/2010/dec/14/
http://www.radiolab.org/2010/dec/14/equation-good/0 -
I'm sorry you're so sad, GoriilaEsq. I believe in something called enlightened self interest. I've noticed that when the people around me are happy, I'm usually happy, too. So it seems it's in my own interests to do things that make others happy. And sometimes, it just feels so good! Some of the people I know call this phenomenon "love". I'm sure there's a formula that can reduce it to the animalistic drive it probably is, but I'm too dumb to care. (I've also noticed that when I approach others with suspicion and hostility, expecting the worst form them, that's usually what I get...go figure.) Have you ever seen the BBC Adam Curtis documentary "The Trap"? John Nash had some interesting ideas about this whole thing...highly recommend.0
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I always question motivation. The word "trust" is too broad (someone mentioned that earlier).
But everyone does this automatically, unless they have a disability where they can't. That generally isn't about trust - it's about trying to see what the person is wanting to communicate, and respond appropriately. If a neighbour says 'Hi, how are you?' they could be just wanting to keep friendly relations between you, as you're a neighbour and it's good to form a community and look out for each other. Or they could be wanting to start a conversation, to talk to you about something in particular (maybe your music is too loud, or maybe they want to gossip about another neighbour). Or maybe you've been in hospital recently and they want to know if you are better, because they are worried about you. People are automatically subconsciously aware of possible reasons behind what people say and do - then they are able to adapt to whatever direction the interaction takes.0 -
If I knew for a fact that I personally did not create the post above as a "plant," I wouldn't believe it was real.
I actually read this after teaching my Sunday school class. I believe we are called to be kind to people because we are all made in the image and likeness of God. I find your way of thinking to be cynical and profoundly sad. I'm so glad I do not shre your worldview of humanity.Something to ponder on your way to Sunday school this morning.
I also don't find you scary and intimidating. I find you quite arrogant and pessimistic. I believe you are probably very insecure, which makes me want to be nice/kind to you- as difficult as I find it. I hope you have an awesome day and your view of humanity changes. Peace.
A Sunday school teacher... who clearly, and concisely... using eight (8) different negatively critical qualifiers in her post... was compelled to "lecture" me... whilst sitting in a house of God.... and expressed pure angst, to the extent of manifested hatred... toward me... a complete stranger....
YET...
She closed by saying she would "be nice to me," even though she didn't want to be nice to me.
And therein, the argument for always questioning... motivation.
Be sure to tip your waitresses...0 -
Possibly. Or, maybe I get kick out of watching people get extraordinarily mean, ugly and aggressive... with a complete stranger... whilst describing how fundamentally "nice" they really are... to complete strangers.I just don't see it as simplistically as you seem to. You are saying some daft things sometimes, maybe just to get a reaction, and maybe because you don't know as much about this as you are pretending to.
Hmmm...
(And I'm not talking about you btw... I've enjoyed your posts for the quality of thought, rather than the irony.)0
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