So..no barbells at gym
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It takes a long time to build the trunk up to handle heavy barbell squats. Do you really think a veteran pistol squatter with no specific barbell training could just throw 300lbs on? Maybe if they are used to loading their torso with exercises like handstand pushups. I choose to train the most muscle groups in the least amount of time - which is why I think it's fun and novel that I can do pistol squats, but I get under a barbell when it's time to train.
Chances are the veteran pistol squatter is also moving into lower leverage upper body exercises like L-sits, front levers, and human flags, and laughs at the weak core of the squatter.
The front lever throttles the whole body just as effectively as a deadlift.
I'd certainly be interested to see this put to practice.
Well, walk up to a pullup bar and try to do a front lever. Hell try to even do one with your knees tucked to your chest.
If you can't do 20-30 good form dragon flags your core is way too weak to do a front lever.
I don't deadlift 400lbs, but maybe someone in this thread does, and can try.0 -
I don't deadlift 400lbs, but maybe someone in this thread does, and can try.
I pull way over that but have never done a front lever....
I do hanging leg raises on occasion. A lot of the things listed above are great for ASSISTANCE excercises. They help you hit weak points after doing compound LIFTS.
But you cant build an athlete using l sits, front levers, and pistol squats.0 -
I don't deadlift 400lbs, but maybe someone in this thread does, and can try.
I pull way over that but have never done a front lever....
I do hanging leg raises on occasion. A lot of the things listed above are great for ASSISTANCE excercises. They help you hit weak points after doing compound LIFTS.
But you cant build an athlete using l sits, front levers, and pistol squats.
This is contrary to the truth I want to believe, but a very interesting read:
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_interviews/all_muscle_no_iron;jsessionid=FB8EE9FEE50CB638508CF71337E5319E-mcd01.hydra
I'm not about to give up my barbells, but maybe I should work some more bodyweight stuff in.0 -
This is contrary to the truth I want to believe, but a very interesting read:
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_interviews/all_muscle_no_iron;jsessionid=FB8EE9FEE50CB638508CF71337E5319E-mcd01.hydra
I'm not about to give up my barbells, but maybe I should work some more bodyweight stuff in.
Bodyweight stuff is great to supplement your training.
I routinely do bodyweight pullups, pushups, situps, leg raises,etc. They just don't make up the chunk of your training if you're looking for epic results.
Keep in mind a few things about olympic gymnasts (mainly the males). They've used drugs to achieve better than average results. And they've been doing this for 10+ years. They have amazing physiques because they are the top athletes from around the world. "Results not typical" pops into my head.0 -
This is contrary to the truth I want to believe, but a very interesting read:
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_interviews/all_muscle_no_iron;jsessionid=FB8EE9FEE50CB638508CF71337E5319E-mcd01.hydra
I'm not about to give up my barbells, but maybe I should work some more bodyweight stuff in.
Bodyweight stuff is great to supplement your training.
I routinely do bodyweight pullups, pushups, situps, leg raises,etc. They just don't make up the chunk of your training if you're looking for epic results.
Keep in mind a few things about olympic gymnasts (mainly the males). They've used drugs to achieve better than average results. And they've been doing this for 10+ years. They have amazing physiques because they are the top athletes from around the world. "Results not typical" pops into my head.
thanks.0 -
Are you really trying to say that you can't be strong without using barbells because that is absolutey insane. Do you have any idea how many proffesional strength trainers have dropped barbells from workouts because of rotator cuff and shoulder issues. Dumbells are much safer to use and can be replaced in just about every exercise including deadlifts.0
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Are you really trying to say that you can't be strong without using barbells because that is absolutey insane. Do you have any idea how many proffesional strength trainers have dropped barbells from workouts because of rotator cuff and shoulder issues. Dumbells are much safer to use and can be replaced in just about every exercise including deadlifts.
How exactly are dumbbells safer?? especially in deads. or squats........
I've only on 1-2 occasions seen a dumbbell lift and said "damn that guy is strong".0 -
This is contrary to the truth I want to believe, but a very interesting read:
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_interviews/all_muscle_no_iron;jsessionid=FB8EE9FEE50CB638508CF71337E5319E-mcd01.hydra
I'm not about to give up my barbells, but maybe I should work some more bodyweight stuff in.
Bodyweight stuff is great to supplement your training.
I routinely do bodyweight pullups, pushups, situps, leg raises,etc. They just don't make up the chunk of your training if you're looking for epic results.
Keep in mind a few things about olympic gymnasts (mainly the males). They've used drugs to achieve better than average results. And they've been doing this for 10+ years. They have amazing physiques because they are the top athletes from around the world. "Results not typical" pops into my head.
BS.
Elite gymnasts have very specific physiques in order to obtain the massive strength:size ratio required to be competitive at a high level (tiny to begin with and tiny legs). Anbody else wouldn't be competitive since they couldn't achieve the strength:size ratio to be any good, their mechanical levers would increase the resistance making things harder, their hormones would make their muscles bigger in response to the stimulus hurting their strength:size ratio, actually training legs and caring about their size would add a lot of dead wood decreasing the strength:size ratio. To be a world class gymnast you have to have an incredible ability to build strength without excess hypertrophy.
Resistance is resistance. And anyone that understands mechanics understands that the weight applied is irrelevant, our muscles resist rotational moment at joints, moment can be increased by increasing the force applied or distance applied. To your chest muscles, whether you've got 200 lbs on a barbel right above your shoulders with a 1" lever or you've got 30 lb DB's in your straight arms doesn't matter in the slightest (just a guess in equivalency, I didn't work out the exact math), the rotational moment applied to the shoulder is the same.
Try out this fun little exercise. Walk over to the dip station. Instead of doing a chest dip, do a super duper chest dip; at the top of the dip use your pressing rotators to rotate your body so that your hips and shoulders are perfectly parallel to the floor while holding your arms straight. No matter how much you can bench, chances are you're so weak that you'll have to pull your knees to your chest to do this, if you are strong enough to do it at all. Now do pushups while holding this position in the dip station. Its just your bodyweight, I mean, nothing like the resistance you can get with a barbell. Just an assistance exercise, a pushup.0 -
As I remember, there will be a weight training machine to cover every exercise you will perform with a barbell. For example, the bench press machine lying down can usually be used sitting up as a shoulder press machine. The Lat Pulldown machine can be used as a Tricep Extension machine and so on.
The advantage of using a weight machine over a barbell is, for example, you can't end up trapped under a barbell in bench press with a bench machine (because the handles don't go across your chest). You can't fall forwards or backwards or end up in a squat you can't stand up from with a squat deck, whereas with a loaded barbell you can when you get to muscle exhaustion.
The disadvantage of machines compared to a barbell is, with a barbell you have to use core body strength to keep your balance and that has a wonderful synergistic effect on your body overall.
I used to body build and have attended both sparkly weight machine gyms and dungeon style free weight clubs. I didn't really click with either and I eventually have vegged out - for about ten years.
My interest in yoga has led me to discover and get back into body resistance exercises (Pullups, Chins, Pressups, Dips etc) and that is where I have found I am happiest and get the most sense of acheivement from.0 -
find your nearest exit..0
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Elite gymnasts have very specific physiques in order to obtain the massive strength:size ratio required to be competitive at a high level (tiny to begin with and tiny legs). Anbody else wouldn't be competitive since they couldn't achieve the strength:size ratio to be any good, their mechanical levers would increase the resistance making things harder, their hormones would make their muscles bigger in response to the stimulus hurting their strength:size ratio, actually training legs and caring about their size would add a lot of dead wood decreasing the strength:size ratio. To be a world class gymnast you have to have an incredible ability to build strength without excess hypertrophy.
Resistance is resistance. And anyone that understands mechanics understands that the weight applied is irrelevant, our muscles resist rotational moment at joints, moment can be increased by increasing the force applied or distance applied. To your chest muscles, whether you've got 200 lbs on a barbel right above your shoulders with a 1" lever or you've got 30 lb DB's in your straight arms doesn't matter in the slightest (just a guess in equivalency, I didn't work out the exact math), the rotational moment applied to the shoulder is the same.
Again. They've spent countless years doing it. And there are drugs they can promote strength without vastly increasing hypertrophy, diet also plays a role. Drugs aside, you're looking at the top athletes in that sport, that doesn't mean it's useful for others.
I would never say that gymnasts aren't strong, nor would I say that they look bad.
But a gymnast would maybe weight 150 pounds at more.................for an adult male, that's not really practical to be that tiny.
And the topic was strength training. So yes, while these movements work for gymansts (their sport specific movements) it doesn't mean that they have much of a use in building athletes for other sports, or for increasing the fitness of your average joe.
Most people don't have access to parallel bars or gymnast rings...and a 300 pound person is going to have a hell of a time trying to learn any of those movements. Most gymnasts spend a ton of time learning to lower themselves on rings (they teach eccentric first, then an isometric hold, then the concentric portion).......Anyone can pick up a barbell and learn how to lift.
Let's not compare apples to oranges and keep practicality in mind.0 -
You can get brutally strong doing BW stuff exclusively.
You can get brutally strong doing BB stuff exclusively.
You can get brutally strong doing DB stuff exclusively.
Smart people do all 3.
As for the gym you're going to, try to get a full body work out.
Push overhead, and the reverse pulling motion (ie overhead press and pullups)
Push out in front of you and the reverse pulling motion (ie flys and rows)
Push below you and the reverse pulling motion (ie dips and shurgs)
Upper leg work (extensions and curls)
Lower leg work (calf raises)
Go to exrx or something like that and find exercises that hit all the major groups...and do them. If you don't have access to the tools to make the exercises harder in resistance...do a lot of them. If all you did was pushups, pullups, and lunges, but you did a crapton of them, you'd be alright.
BB stuff is nice, I love it. But if you don't have access to it there are alternatives.0 -
Elite gymnasts have very specific physiques in order to obtain the massive strength:size ratio required to be competitive at a high level (tiny to begin with and tiny legs). Anbody else wouldn't be competitive since they couldn't achieve the strength:size ratio to be any good, their mechanical levers would increase the resistance making things harder, their hormones would make their muscles bigger in response to the stimulus hurting their strength:size ratio, actually training legs and caring about their size would add a lot of dead wood decreasing the strength:size ratio. To be a world class gymnast you have to have an incredible ability to build strength without excess hypertrophy.
Resistance is resistance. And anyone that understands mechanics understands that the weight applied is irrelevant, our muscles resist rotational moment at joints, moment can be increased by increasing the force applied or distance applied. To your chest muscles, whether you've got 200 lbs on a barbel right above your shoulders with a 1" lever or you've got 30 lb DB's in your straight arms doesn't matter in the slightest (just a guess in equivalency, I didn't work out the exact math), the rotational moment applied to the shoulder is the same.
Again. They've spent countless years doing it. And there are drugs they can promote strength without vastly increasing hypertrophy, diet also plays a role. Drugs aside, you're looking at the top athletes in that sport, that doesn't mean it's useful for others.
I would never say that gymnasts aren't strong, nor would I say that they look bad.
But a gymnast would maybe weight 150 pounds at more.................for an adult male, that's not really practical to be that tiny.
And the topic was strength training. So yes, while these movements work for gymansts (their sport specific movements) it doesn't mean that they have much of a use in building athletes for other sports, or for increasing the fitness of your average joe.
Most people don't have access to parallel bars or gymnast rings...and a 300 pound person is going to have a hell of a time trying to learn any of those movements. Most gymnasts spend a ton of time learning to lower themselves on rings (they teach eccentric first, then an isometric hold, then the concentric portion).......Anyone can pick up a barbell and learn how to lift.
Let's not compare apples to oranges and keep practicality in mind.
How does this not apply? Resistance is resistance. You seem to be saying that doing gymanstic movements for strength training would just make you tiny but very muscular. Completely ignoring the special genetics the elite need to stay tiny and the fact that specifically look to avoid hypertrophy. Normal people will never get good enough to be competitive as they are too big and would end up with excessively large muscles, especailly if they are eating for hypertrophy (lets be real, hypertrophy is 90% diet, how you apply resistance doesn't matter all that much). Hmmm, why is it again that most people lift weights?
You're making fun of elite gymnasts for weighing 150 yet a page before were bragging about how much you lift at 165 lb. LOL. Umm, adult males > 200lb. (for the record I know I've got near unlimited resistance left with just my body and some small DB's, and I weigh 205 with a 6 pk).
Rings and PB's aren't necessary except for very high level stuff. A straight pullup bar can get A LOT of mileage (look up the barstazz on youtube for more information on what can be done with a pullup bar). Almost all PB strength exercises can be done with either 2 sturdy chairs or some cheap homemade PVC parallettes. And lets not pretend rings are hard to get your hands on. $40 and a amazon account is all you need (and a place in your house to mount them, easier for some than others).
First you're saying that there isn't enough resistance compared to a barbell, then you say there is too much. Make up your mind.
Resistance is resistance no matter where it comes from.
Practicality? Hmm, do at home with just a pullup bar and other assorted small accessories, or get a power rack and weight set, a spotter, and/or gym membership and find the time to go.0 -
How does this not apply? Resistance is resistance. You seem to be saying that doing gymanstic movements for strength training would just make you tiny but very muscular. Completely ignoring the special genetics the elite need to stay tiny and the fact that specifically look to avoid hypertrophy. Normal people will never get good enough to be competitive as their are too big and would end up with excessively large muscles. Hmmm, why is it again that most people lift weights?
You're making fun of elite gymnasts for weighing 150 yet a page before were bragging about how much you lift at 165 lb. LOL. Umm, adult males > 200lb. (for the record I know I've got near unlimited resistance left with just my body and some small DB's, and I weigh 205 with a 6 pk).
Rings and PB's aren't necessary except for very high level stuff. A straight pullup bar can get A LOT of mileage (look up the barstazz on youtube for more information on what can be done with a pullup bar). Almost all PB strength exercises can be done with either 2 sturdy chairs or some cheap homemade PVC parallettes.
First you're saying that there isn't enough resistance compared to a barbell, then you say there is too much. Make up your mind.
Resistance is resistance no matter where it comes from.
You've lost me a bit.... I'm saying I find it hard to believe someone can practically implement a gymnast routine in their local gym and get strong and see good results.
I'm not making fun of gymnasts for weighing 150, I'm saying it's not very practical for an adult male to sit at 150 pounds on a regular basis, which gymnasts do.
i cut to 165 for 1 day to weigh in, then immediately do whatever I can to not be that light............I'm fairly short at 5'7" and normally walk around at 185. So again, 150 is amazingly small for an adult male. And please note that I wasn't bragging. i said I squatted 365 and was no where near the top of my sport, that an average male could squat over 300 with some training.
And I'm not saying the resistance isn't enough to spark SOME muscle growth. But I really don't think gymnastics are the optimal way to achieve strength/hypetrophy or don't you think more people would be behind it? Don't you think more bodybuilders woudl do these movements? or that sports coaches would have their kids doing them?
Because the last time I checked, athletes across the country were lifting weights in the gym to get stronger and faster.......And bodybuilders were dong the same.
I'm not saying gymnastics suck, so I'm not sure what the issue here is. It's just not optimal for muscle growth.0 -
yeah i'd switch gyms as well. but then again i've been a lifter since i was 18 so oly bars, squat racks and just the general set up of the weight room is one of the main things i look at before even joining a gym.
i have lifted in gyms in the past without a good setup (mainly cus they were free) and i found that there was just too much time wasted trying to work around the lack of equipment not to mention the fact you're more likely to get random people coming up to you and giving you bad unsolicited advice about women and weight lifting at those places0 -
yeah i'd switch gyms as well. but then again i've been a lifter since i was 18 so oly bars, squat racks and just the general set up of the weight room is one of the main things i look at before even joining a gym.
i have lifted in gyms in the past without a good setup (mainly cus they were free) and i found that there was just too much time wasted trying to work around the lack of equipment not to mention the fact you're more likely to get random people coming up to you and giving you bad unsolicited advice about women and weight lifting at those places
I can't wait for someone to give me bad advice about women and lifting.
:smokin:0 -
One of the ways dogs prove their dominance by seeing who can pee the highest. I think we need to bring a telephone pole into this thread and let some of you guys have a tinkle and be done with it already. :laugh:0
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yeah i'd switch gyms as well. but then again i've been a lifter since i was 18 so oly bars, squat racks and just the general set up of the weight room is one of the main things i look at before even joining a gym.
i have lifted in gyms in the past without a good setup (mainly cus they were free) and i found that there was just too much time wasted trying to work around the lack of equipment not to mention the fact you're more likely to get random people coming up to you and giving you bad unsolicited advice about women and weight lifting at those places
I can't wait for someone to give me bad advice about women and lifting.
:smokin:
my favorite that i got recently (after celebrating with a fellow lifter that i was finally deadlifting more than 1 weigh). a TRAINER came up to me and told me to be careful because f i continue to lift like that i will get bulky and gain weight weight. i was like yeah you're right. I've gained so much weight over the past few months that i've had to increase my pants size from a size 16 to a size 12 :laugh:0 -
One of the ways dogs prove their dominance by seeing who can pee the highest. I think we need to bring a telephone pole into this thread and let some of you guys have a tinkle and be done with it already. :laugh:
well said.
I'm bowing out on the gymnastics vs barbell training.
Getting ready to leave work soon. But Waldo, please do me a favor. When athletes across the US stop lifting weights and start playing around on parallel bars and rings, please contact me and tell me I was wrong. Until then, I'm gonna continue being right.0 -
One of the ways dogs prove their dominance by seeing who can pee the highest. I think we need to bring a telephone pole into this thread and let some of you guys have a tinkle and be done with it already. :laugh:
well said.
I'm bowing out on the gymnastics vs barbell training.
Getting ready to leave work soon. But Wellbert, please do me a favor. When athletes across the US stop lifting weights and start playing around on parallel bars and rings, please contact me and tell me I was wrong. Until then, I'm gonna continue being right.
Haha, I don't disagree with you, I just thought the article was interesting. It's Waldo doing the arguing.
Ain't no one is taking my barbells.0
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