Smokers – selfish scum or persecuted minority?
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No sire, I stated very clearly that my experience does NOT constitute proof of anything. A persons own personal experience does not prove anything nor does it disprove anything. So saying that I work at a hospital and some kid had health issue and both parents smoked is irrelevant. It means nothing. There is no evidence that the kids health issues are a result of the parents smoking. It takes studies done over a period of years to draw those type of conclusions not one or two kids that have breathing problems and the parents happen to smoke. I lived with two smoking parent and have no health problems. And by that same token, my personal experience of living with two smokers and having no health problems also doesnt prove anything. Its anecdotal and does not constitute proof or evidence of anything.
Then quite frankly, if none of it means anything, why is there a huge debate regarding experiences and studies (on both sides, having lasted several of years). This is posting to post and a completely moot discussion.
The only things I've picked out in this thread that are valid: freedom of choice, being obese is harmful to the obese person and bystanders, and relative medical journals don't mean anything.
I feel like I just read about a train wreck that involved no passengers or human operators.0 -
Fraser that could be the dumbest thing I ever heard.0
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You have to EAT ... no one HAS to smoke0
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No sire, I stated very clearly that my experience does NOT constitute proof of anything. A persons own personal experience does not prove anything nor does it disprove anything. So saying that I work at a hospital and some kid had health issue and both parents smoked is irrelevant. It means nothing. There is no evidence that the kids health issues are a result of the parents smoking. It takes studies done over a period of years to draw those type of conclusions not one or two kids that have breathing problems and the parents happen to smoke. I lived with two smoking parent and have no health problems. And by that same token, my personal experience of living with two smokers and having no health problems also doesnt prove anything. Its anecdotal and does not constitute proof or evidence of anything.
Then quite frankly, if none of it means anything, why is there a huge debate regarding experiences and studies (on both sides, having lasted several of years). This is posting to post and a completely moot discussion.
The only things I've picked out in this thread that are valid: freedom of choice, being obese is harmful to the obese person and bystanders, and relative medical journals don't mean anything.
I feel like I just read about a train wreck that involved no passengers or human operators.
Now you have confused me. Who said medical journals dont mean anything? Medical journals use years and years of studies to draw conclusions. Reports in medical journals are completely different than nurse suzy saying "some kid came in and couldnt breathe, both parents smoked, therefore, second hand smoke is bad" . Two completely different things.0 -
Second hand smoke is harmful to others...PERIOD!!
Yea, we get it. You dont believe the many studies that show otherwise. Who cares? This isnt about second hand smoke anyway. Its abour a persons right to choose what they do with their own life and business owners right to choose what is alowed in their establishment.0 -
FWIW, MDWilliams is correct. Anecdotal evidence is not "evidence" of anything.
I'm not really interested in arguing about studies though - I don't smoke or subject myself to 2nd hand smoke so the results of any study would be irrelevant to me so I'm not interested enough to read them all and make my mind up as to whether or not it's actually dangerous. Same way I couldn't tell you the odds of your parachute failing to open if you jump out of a plane - until I decide to do a jump I'm not bothered what the odds are!
It can't be easy to do a 2nd hand smoke study though. Smoking diseases are typically long-term and slow-moving. You'd have to subject a large group of non-smokers to a set amount of smoke over a period of years and then compare their health to a control group to get results. I can't imagine many people would volunteer for that!
Once you start taking self-selecting groups and trying to draw conclusions from their outcomes you leave yourself open to criticisms of your methods or stated results.
But this study-talk is really OT so I'll stop now.0 -
You have to EAT ... no one HAS to smoke
You have to eat but you dont have to over eat and you dont have to eat at a place that allows smoking. Those are both choices to be made.0 -
The difference between the government banning smoking and abortion/perfume/BO (quite frankly, ridiculous things to even try and compare) is that smoking causes harm, not only to you, but to others around you. Abortion is something you choose to do to yourself and causes no harm to anyone. Perfume and BO might be an annoyance, but they don't cause you any HARM. That's the difference. But like someone else mentioned, so many smokers are wrapped up in their little self entitled world that they can't see the difference between the ridiculous comparisons.0
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Now you have confused me. Who said medical journals dont mean anything? Medical journals use years and years of studies to draw conclusions. Reports in medical journals are completely different than nurse suzy saying "some kid came in and couldnt breathe, both parents smoked, therefore, second hand smoke is bad" . Two completely different things.
You implied in a few posts before regarding that medical studies show that second hand smoke is bad, but then you counter replied with counter articles. Then you said that personal experiences account for nothing. You've made a point in which you argue that journals which have proven counter arguments (second hand smoke doesn't kill) nullify the validity of the other argument (second hand smoke does kill).
This thread was about the vilifying or glorifying of smoking, but has of course, since it's an ethical grey area, turned into a post that is mostly fueled by feelings (I'm not blaming anyone, this is perfectly human to do so and I realize that).
I see your point about freedoms, but your reasoning is all over the place.0 -
You have to EAT ... no one HAS to smoke
You have to eat but you dont have to over eat and you dont have to eat at a place that allows smoking. Those are both choices to be made.
Yet no one commented on my previous well though out response though hmmm0 -
It can't be easy to do a 2nd hand smoke study though. Smoking diseases are typically long-term and slow-moving. You'd have to subject a large group of non-smokers to a set amount of smoke over a period of years and then compare their health to a control group to get results. I can't imagine many people would volunteer for that!
Once you start taking self-selecting groups and trying to draw conclusions from their outcomes you leave yourself open to criticisms of your methods or stated results.
But this study-talk is really OT so I'll stop now.
I actually think your post is pretty valid. However, there are studies done on non-smokers who do get exposed to second hand smoke (casino workers, bar workers, restaurant staff, etc). The studies were done over years and include the measurement in the purity of air inside the establishment and the purity or quality of air outside the establishment. The results of the study are in agreement that due to the particle matter left in the air by smokers, removing smoking in that establishment has greatly improved the quality of air for workers and thus reduced risks for workers.0 -
I think its annoying that non smokers seem to think its ok to lecture smokers.
Hers the thing, I'm an adult, its my body and I'll do it if I want. If I get cancer I will not blame anyone else.
I don;t go into McDonalds poking fat people telling them they are killing themselves.
Feel free to kill yourself in your home. The point is you shouldn't force other people to breathe in your toxic smoke.
DO NOT EVER, EVER, EVER TELL SOMEONE IT IS OKAY TO COMMIT SUICIDE!!!!!!!!! :explode:0 -
Which bit the reason drugs are illegal or the fact being fat is exactly like being a smoker?Fraser that could be the dumbest thing I ever heard.0 -
I debated whether or not I should join this topic- personally I see it getting locked any time.
I don't believe smokers are selfish scum anymore than I think they are persecuted. They and only they have made the choice to pick up smoking. No one made that choice for them. Neither should that choice be taken from them. If they choose to smoke in their own house and you don't want to be around it... then don't go.
I also don't believe the government should have the authority to decide whether or not establishments allow smoking. The establishment should have the choice to allow it or not- they had that choice before and you had the ones that DID allow it, and the ones that did not.0 -
I remember when I had my first beer!!0
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Are you high ?I remember when I had my first beer!!0 -
I think its annoying that non smokers seem to think its ok to lecture smokers.
Hers the thing, I'm an adult, its my body and I'll do it if I want. If I get cancer I will not blame anyone else.
I don;t go into McDonalds poking fat people telling them they are killing themselves.
Feel free to kill yourself in your home. The point is you shouldn't force other people to breathe in your toxic smoke.
Who exactly do I force to breath in toxic smoke?0 -
When did I say anyone was forcing me to do anything
So who is forcing you to sit in smokey atmospheres? You can always leave right?I don't think smokers are selfish scum but I don't think they're 'persecuted' either.
I think part of the problem for non-smokers is that cigarette smoke really is disgusting. It smells bad and clings to your clothes so it makes you smell bad. I don't like spending time in a smoky atmosphere because I find it so unpleasant. I'm not sure smokers are actually aware of just how bad it/they can smell.
To me it's no different to asking me to sit next to a piss-soaked wino, except he won't bleat on and on about being opressed.
It is the case, however, that smokers smell bad. Not just when they are actually smoking, but all day, from the first cig to the last. I work with a smoker and she goes out to smoke. I can smell it on her from across the desk or when walking behind her in the office. I put up with it the same way I'd put up with a colleague's BO or bad breath, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. I would object, however, if she lit up in the office as that gives me no way to avoid it.
Does she know she smells bad? Probably. Does she continue to smoke? Yes. Does that make her selfish? I'd say that makes her an addict. She spends over £50 a week on a habit that wrecks her skin, makes her smell and could kill her - being selfish is the least of her worries! Maybe if she was persecuted *a bit* she'd give up?
Just to carry on your point: Obese people smell bad, that foul smell of sweat and crap all rolled into one.
and before anyone says discrimination im basing this on personal times when ive been stuck next to them.
But god forbid i say anything about that fat guy or girl taking up 2 seats, making the bus smell of rancid mayo. But these are strong woman who no matter how horribly they hate skinny girls are all beautiful on the inside and should be proud of thier rolls of fat.
I would go as far to say being obese has a much higher price to pay than a smoker.
Fat kids will get bullied i school no matter what you do, they will die early and will suffer a worse life because of it.
if you go after smokers you must go after the obese, its a choice just like smoking.
obese people smell bad? you ignorant arrogant moron!!0 -
That's fine if they want to give themselves cancer but don't blow smoke in my face when I say that I don't smoke, that's just rude. Also, why do smokers get extra breaks at work but I don't? I should be entitled to a fresh air break as well.
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I have a friend whose workplace lets you work shorter hours if you don't smoke - makes up for the smokers' smoke breaks.0
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obese people smell bad? you ignorant arrogant moron!!
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smoking people smell bad? you ignorant arrogant moron!!
see my point?0 -
I have a friend whose workplace lets you work shorter hours if you don't smoke - makes up for the smokers' smoke breaks.
Shorter hours = less money. Sooo they get paid longer hours when they spend most of it outside smoking? I mean, most of the managers smoked there so I was the odd one out. Happy to say my current job doesn't do that. Smokers have their own separate break room with a vent that leads outside and if they want to smoke, they gotta do it on the same break times as everyone else. 0 -
I'm not a fan of people who smoke in public. I think it's rude.
Bottom line is you shouldn't really have the right to smoke in public. It is an addiction, and I hate it for you, but do it at home. Aside from bothering people with allergies or asthma, you're also setting a bad example for the kids that may be around you.................0 -
Wouldn't be much of a perk for the non-smokers if they lost money - they don't. I appreciate that it wouldn't work in an environment where you get paid based on the hours you are clocked-in.I have a friend whose workplace lets you work shorter hours if you don't smoke - makes up for the smokers' smoke breaks.
Shorter hours = less money. Sooo they get paid longer hours when they spend most of it outside smoking? I mean, most of the managers smoked there so I was the odd one out. Happy to say my current job doesn't do that. Smokers have their own separate break room with a vent that leads outside and if they want to smoke, they gotta do it on the same break times as everyone else.0 -
obese people smell bad? you ignorant arrogant moron!!
smoking people smell bad? you ignorant arrogant moron!!
see my point?
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No I don't see your point. Smokers smell of smoke, it's unavoidable. Some non smokers smell bad whether they are obese or thin as a rake. One is not connected to the other.0 -
Wouldn't be much of a perk for the non-smokers if they lost money - they don't. I appreciate that it wouldn't work in an environment where you get paid based on the hours you are clocked-in.I have a friend whose workplace lets you work shorter hours if you don't smoke - makes up for the smokers' smoke breaks.
Shorter hours = less money. Sooo they get paid longer hours when they spend most of it outside smoking? I mean, most of the managers smoked there so I was the odd one out. Happy to say my current job doesn't do that. Smokers have their own separate break room with a vent that leads outside and if they want to smoke, they gotta do it on the same break times as everyone else.
Wait. I'm confused. You said you get shorter hours if you don't smoke. I'm too tired for this. Off to work! :laugh:0 -
Yes. Everyone doing the same job gets the same pay. The smokers do more hours, since some of their time is spent smoking, not working.
Wouldn't be much of a perk for the non-smokers if they lost money - they don't. I appreciate that it wouldn't work in an environment where you get paid based on the hours you are clocked-in.I have a friend whose workplace lets you work shorter hours if you don't smoke - makes up for the smokers' smoke breaks.
Shorter hours = less money. Sooo they get paid longer hours when they spend most of it outside smoking? I mean, most of the managers smoked there so I was the odd one out. Happy to say my current job doesn't do that. Smokers have their own separate break room with a vent that leads outside and if they want to smoke, they gotta do it on the same break times as everyone else.
Wait. I'm confused. You said you get shorter hours if you don't smoke. I'm too tired for this. Off to work! :laugh:0 -
obese people smell bad? you ignorant arrogant moron!!
smoking people smell bad? you ignorant arrogant moron!!
see my point?
No I don't see your point. Smokers smell of smoke, it's unavoidable. Some non smokers smell bad whether they are obese or thin as a rake. One is not connected to the other.
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I would say 8 outta 10 of the real obese people i see have a strong smell. Honestly the bit i dont get
Both make the person less atractive
both cost the goverment money
Both destroy peoples lifes
both ruin the kids life
why the hell is it ok to say we can bully this group but not the others?
It honestly makes no sense to me at all.
If i made the same thread about a woman chosing to love her obesity it would be
oh you hero, so brave so idependent.
why is one detrimental habit ok and the other not? please tell me because i see no logic in it.0 -
I would say 8 outta 10 of the real obese people i see have a strong smell. Honestly the bit i dont get
Both make the person less atractive
both cost the goverment money
Both destroy peoples lifes
both ruin the kids life
why the hell is it ok to say we can bully this group but not the others?
It honestly makes no sense to me at all.
If i made the same thread about a woman chosing to love her obesity it would be
oh you hero, so brave so idependent.
why is one detrimental habit ok and the other not? please tell me because i see no logic in it.
I'd say I draw the line at the point where obese people don't negatively affect my health if they're in the same room as me. But smokers do................................
I can see your points, and I'm not a fan of obese people either. I think they need to get their **** together in most situations.0 -
why is one detrimental habit ok and the other not? please tell me because i see no logic in it.
For the most part, I think it's because personal body image is important and obesity isn't necessarily harmful to someone who is just nearby where has second hand smoke can be. Second, body image is pretty important, otherwise, why would slim people want to put on muscle mass or why would someone who is large want to lose weight? Judging people on looks is considered taboo, you wouldn't openly call someone ugly, it's hurtful and an attack on their appearance, it doesn't benefit the person hearing it unless they turn it into motivation.
It's unfitting to compare the two, even though they carry similar risks to the individual.0
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