Why should I go VEGAN??
Replies
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I bet all of you preahing about pollution and saving the environment by consuming less meat still drive cars...0
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I bet all of you preahing about pollution and saving the environment by consuming less meat still drive cars...
i dont.
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I bet all of you preahing about pollution and saving the environment by consuming less meat still drive cars...
But we have to start somewhere - right?
For me, I drive when I have to and choose greener options when I can - now - back to the topic ...:flowerforyou:0 -
also, many vegans who DO drive cars also drive hybrids and/or more gas efficient cars. so... there's that.
SteveJWatson - you make a lot of interesting and valid points, however, I'd urge you to check out a documentary or two - like Forks Over Knives. I recognize they have an agenda they're pushing, but I always think it's valuable to look at the other side's argument too. There really are many, many factory farms in the united states where the conditions are just awful. your experience may be different, and I like that you seem to have many free-range farms in your area, but unfortunately the vast majority of the meat and poultry products in the US don't come from farms like that.
and as for the traffic statistic... i'm not 100% certain of it, but the statistic references worldwide livestock production vs traffic (which includes areas with very minimal traffic but lots of livestock).
Regardless, the impact of meat production on pollution is very real:
ftp://ftp.fao.org/docrep/fao/010/a0261e/a0261e00.pdf
http://www.nrdc.org/water/pollution/ffarms.asp
http://www.environmentalintegrity.org/documents/hazardouspollutionfromfactoryfarms.pdf (this one has lots of technical jargon, but it's incredibly detailed and in depth. the conclusion they come to is below)Despite significant influence by the regulated community and problems with both monitoring and data analysis, the NAEMS results document high levels of air pollution around factory farms and demonstrate the need for increased public health protection for rural communities. This study adds to a growing body of research showing that factory farms are industrial-scale polluters, and EPA’s failure to regulate CAFO pollution under the Clean Air Act and other laws runs afoul of sound science.0 -
also, many vegans who DO drive cars also drive hybrids and/or more gas efficient cars. so... there's that.
SteveJWatson - you make a lot of interesting and valid points, however, I'd urge you to check out a documentary or two - like Forks Over Knives. I recognize they have an agenda they're pushing, but I always think it's valuable to look at the other side's argument too. There really are many, many factory farms in the united states where the conditions are just awful. your experience may be different, and I like that you seem to have many free-range farms in your area, but unfortunately the vast majority of the meat and poultry products in the US don't come from farms like that.
and as for the traffic statistic... i'm not 100% certain of it, but the statistic references worldwide livestock production vs traffic (which includes areas with very minimal traffic but lots of livestock).
Regardless, the impact of meat production on pollution is very real:
ftp://ftp.fao.org/docrep/fao/010/a0261e/a0261e00.pdf
http://www.nrdc.org/water/pollution/ffarms.asp
http://www.environmentalintegrity.org/documents/hazardouspollutionfromfactoryfarms.pdf (this one has lots of technical jargon, but it's incredibly detailed and in depth. the conclusion they come to is below)Despite significant influence by the regulated community and problems with both monitoring and data analysis, the NAEMS results document high levels of air pollution around factory farms and demonstrate the need for increased public health protection for rural communities. This study adds to a growing body of research showing that factory farms are industrial-scale polluters, and EPA’s failure to regulate CAFO pollution under the Clean Air Act and other laws runs afoul of sound science.
I think the general consensus amongst the FAO and other oranisations is that small ruminant farming is the way forward in terms of sustainable meat production - which is lucky for me, given that I am a sheep man... :bigsmile:
I undersand that ruminants emit methane - my point is/was is that is that any worse than heavy pesticide, fertiliser and diesel nescessary to produce plants for human consumption on a large scale?0 -
also, many vegans who DO drive cars also drive hybrids and/or more gas efficient cars. so... there's that.
SteveJWatson - you make a lot of interesting and valid points, however, I'd urge you to check out a documentary or two - like Forks Over Knives. I recognize they have an agenda they're pushing, but I always think it's valuable to look at the other side's argument too. There really are many, many factory farms in the united states where the conditions are just awful. your experience may be different, and I like that you seem to have many free-range farms in your area, but unfortunately the vast majority of the meat and poultry products in the US don't come from farms like that.
and as for the traffic statistic... i'm not 100% certain of it, but the statistic references worldwide livestock production vs traffic (which includes areas with very minimal traffic but lots of livestock).
Regardless, the impact of meat production on pollution is very real:
ftp://ftp.fao.org/docrep/fao/010/a0261e/a0261e00.pdf
http://www.nrdc.org/water/pollution/ffarms.asp
http://www.environmentalintegrity.org/documents/hazardouspollutionfromfactoryfarms.pdf (this one has lots of technical jargon, but it's incredibly detailed and in depth. the conclusion they come to is below)Despite significant influence by the regulated community and problems with both monitoring and data analysis, the NAEMS results document high levels of air pollution around factory farms and demonstrate the need for increased public health protection for rural communities. This study adds to a growing body of research showing that factory farms are industrial-scale polluters, and EPA’s failure to regulate CAFO pollution under the Clean Air Act and other laws runs afoul of sound science.
I think the general consensus amongst the FAO and other oranisations is that small ruminant farming is the way forward in terms of sustainable meat production - which is lucky for me, given that I am a sheep man... :bigsmile:
I undersand that ruminants emit methane - my point is/was is that is that any worse than heavy pesticide, fertiliser and diesel nescessary to produce plants for human consumption on a large scale?
I'm not sure, and it's worth looking into. but that said i'm also of the opinion that we should follow a similar path to small ruminant farming when dealing with plant production too. we should eat as locally as possible. Obviously we can't ONLY eat local all the time, but if we do a lot MORE of it, it will promote that kind of business vs the giant factory farms.
To me none of this is about being perfect, but just doing a little bit more to be conscious of the earth we live on. if each of us did a little, it would amount to a whole lot. Eat vegan once or twice a week, eat locally, buy locally, support mom-and-pop stores and farmers markets. That kind of thing makes a huge difference if we all make tiny changes.0 -
I'm not sure, and it's worth looking into. but that said i'm also of the opinion that we should follow a similar path to small ruminant farming when dealing with plant production too. we should eat as locally as possible. Obviously we can't ONLY eat local all the time, but if we do a lot MORE of it, it will promote that kind of business vs the giant factory farms.
To me none of this is about being perfect, but just doing a little bit more to be conscious of the earth we live on. if each of us did a little, it would amount to a whole lot. Eat vegan once or twice a week, eat locally, buy locally, support mom-and-pop stores and farmers markets. That kind of thing makes a huge difference if we all make tiny changes.
I completely agree. Everyone doing a little amounts to a whole lot. I know I have the willpower and means to go full vegan, so I will, but if a ton of people just decided to eat less or buy locally more, then we would still be better off.
Hybrid/electric car is next on my list!0 -
I was ok with being vegetarian up until last year, thought I was doing the ethical & kind thing, until I became an on shore volunteer for Sea Shepherd. I discovered all of their crew were vegan and only vegan meals were cooked on board ships. I did some digging about why people go that but further than vegetarian and must say I was horrified and almost think that being veggie is a bit hypocritical you won't eat animals, but you will let them die for you so you can have dairy. It's mental really.
I have done vegan pledges for weeks at a time, and only very very recently have I decided to go full vegan. I'm losing weight nicely too.
For me, this is why..
Dairy cows have to have babies yearly to produce milk. This is the milk meant for their babies. It's like me putting breast milk in your coffee .. fancy some? lol ..These babies, if boys are most often dragged away from mothers at birth & either left to die (I have seen footage, it's horrendous) in a pen next to the mother whilst she calls & bellows for her baby .. (and they do, they cry out to their child, it's heartbreaking) All so I can have milk on my weetabix! Then when she becomes too old at just 4-5 yrs of age (the normal life expectancy for a Fresian cow is 25-30 YEARS!) she is taken for slaughter. Some dairy cows are too weak through over milking to walk to slaughter so they are carried by forklift and dumped where they need to be.
I worked at a dairy. Not to say that absolutely NO dairy does this is probably not true, but to say it is common practice is also not true.
The calves are indeed taken away at birth. Which makes me a little squeamish, but it makes recovery for mom faster. The babies, male or not, are NOT left to die, they will be raised until they're ready to wean and then are sold, typically for 4H projects. They have individual pens near but not touching each other (cuts down on disease) and are bottle fed. The milk is taken out of the tank where the previous milking was held, so maybe they aren't getting THEIR mom's milk but they are getting fresh unpasteurized milk. The newborns are also given saved colostrum (new moms aren't milked for human consumption for a few days, but are milked for colostrum for newborn calves). They're all watched very carefully for illness and are treated accordingly.
It is illegal to take unhealthy animals to slaughter. They will be rejected if they aren't standing. I suppose maybe someone gets away with it once in a while, but not often. When I worked there a vet put a downed cow down, expensive drugs and all. And dairy cows tend to produce pretty high quality meat but again, need to be healthy.
It's not an ideal situation but it's a balance between meeting demand and animal welfare (I'm a believer in welfare, not rights, there is a difference). Usually the farmer has incentive to keep animals happy and healthy as it will enhance production. If all the animals are dying because they're sick, they won't make any money obviously. For example, a stressed steer/cow secretes a chemical into the muscle which makes the meat AWFUL, so there is definitely incentive to make slaughter as humane as possible.0 -
I was ok with being vegetarian up until last year, thought I was doing the ethical & kind thing, until I became an on shore volunteer for Sea Shepherd. I discovered all of their crew were vegan and only vegan meals were cooked on board ships. I did some digging about why people go that but further than vegetarian and must say I was horrified and almost think that being veggie is a bit hypocritical you won't eat animals, but you will let them die for you so you can have dairy. It's mental really.
I have done vegan pledges for weeks at a time, and only very very recently have I decided to go full vegan. I'm losing weight nicely too.
For me, this is why..
Dairy cows have to have babies yearly to produce milk. This is the milk meant for their babies. It's like me putting breast milk in your coffee .. fancy some? lol ..These babies, if boys are most often dragged away from mothers at birth & either left to die (I have seen footage, it's horrendous) in a pen next to the mother whilst she calls & bellows for her baby .. (and they do, they cry out to their child, it's heartbreaking) All so I can have milk on my weetabix! Then when she becomes too old at just 4-5 yrs of age (the normal life expectancy for a Fresian cow is 25-30 YEARS!) she is taken for slaughter. Some dairy cows are too weak through over milking to walk to slaughter so they are carried by forklift and dumped where they need to be.
I worked at a dairy. Not to say that absolutely NO dairy does this is probably not true, but to say it is common practice is also not true.
The calves are indeed taken away at birth. Which makes me a little squeamish, but it makes recovery for mom faster. The babies, male or not, are NOT left to die, they will be raised until they're ready to wean and then are sold, typically for 4H projects. They have individual pens near but not touching each other (cuts down on disease) and are bottle fed. The milk is taken out of the tank where the previous milking was held, so maybe they aren't getting THEIR mom's milk but they are getting fresh unpasteurized milk. The newborns are also given saved colostrum (new moms aren't milked for human consumption for a few days, but are milked for colostrum for newborn calves). They're all watched very carefully for illness and are treated accordingly.
It is illegal to take unhealthy animals to slaughter. They will be rejected if they aren't standing. I suppose maybe someone gets away with it once in a while, but not often. When I worked there a vet put a downed cow down, expensive drugs and all. And dairy cows tend to produce pretty high quality meat but again, need to be healthy.
It's not an ideal situation but it's a balance between meeting demand and animal welfare (I'm a believer in welfare, not rights, there is a difference). Usually the farmer has incentive to keep animals happy and healthy as it will enhance production. If all the animals are dying because they're sick, they won't make any money obviously. For example, a stressed steer/cow secretes a chemical into the muscle which makes the meat AWFUL, so there is definitely incentive to make slaughter as humane as possible.
I don't think your experience, or what you're describing, is a factory farm - unless I'm mistaken, which is possible. :P0 -
I was ok with being vegetarian up until last year, thought I was doing the ethical & kind thing, until I became an on shore volunteer for Sea Shepherd. I discovered all of their crew were vegan and only vegan meals were cooked on board ships. I did some digging about why people go that but further than vegetarian and must say I was horrified and almost think that being veggie is a bit hypocritical you won't eat animals, but you will let them die for you so you can have dairy. It's mental really.
I have done vegan pledges for weeks at a time, and only very very recently have I decided to go full vegan. I'm losing weight nicely too.
For me, this is why..
Dairy cows have to have babies yearly to produce milk. This is the milk meant for their babies. It's like me putting breast milk in your coffee .. fancy some? lol ..These babies, if boys are most often dragged away from mothers at birth & either left to die (I have seen footage, it's horrendous) in a pen next to the mother whilst she calls & bellows for her baby .. (and they do, they cry out to their child, it's heartbreaking) All so I can have milk on my weetabix! Then when she becomes too old at just 4-5 yrs of age (the normal life expectancy for a Fresian cow is 25-30 YEARS!) she is taken for slaughter. Some dairy cows are too weak through over milking to walk to slaughter so they are carried by forklift and dumped where they need to be.
I worked at a dairy. Not to say that absolutely NO dairy does this is probably not true, but to say it is common practice is also not true.
The calves are indeed taken away at birth. Which makes me a little squeamish, but it makes recovery for mom faster. The babies, male or not, are NOT left to die, they will be raised until they're ready to wean and then are sold, typically for 4H projects. They have individual pens near but not touching each other (cuts down on disease) and are bottle fed. The milk is taken out of the tank where the previous milking was held, so maybe they aren't getting THEIR mom's milk but they are getting fresh unpasteurized milk. The newborns are also given saved colostrum (new moms aren't milked for human consumption for a few days, but are milked for colostrum for newborn calves). They're all watched very carefully for illness and are treated accordingly.
It is illegal to take unhealthy animals to slaughter. They will be rejected if they aren't standing. I suppose maybe someone gets away with it once in a while, but not often. When I worked there a vet put a downed cow down, expensive drugs and all. And dairy cows tend to produce pretty high quality meat but again, need to be healthy.
It's not an ideal situation but it's a balance between meeting demand and animal welfare (I'm a believer in welfare, not rights, there is a difference). Usually the farmer has incentive to keep animals happy and healthy as it will enhance production. If all the animals are dying because they're sick, they won't make any money obviously. For example, a stressed steer/cow secretes a chemical into the muscle which makes the meat AWFUL, so there is definitely incentive to make slaughter as humane as possible.
I don't think your experience, or what you're describing, is a factory farm - unless I'm mistaken, which is possible. :P
It was on the smaller side (about 130 producing cows) but in practice was a factory farm. It produced milk for the mass market, not any sort of specialty.
Also on the environmental standpoint with the claim that the methane from cattle causes considerable air pollution: The peak population of beef cattle was actually in the '70s. We now produce about the same amount of meat, but with fewer individual cattle due to them being bred to each produce more over the generations. Yet air pollution is a bigger problem now than it was in the '70s... hmmm. Considering the plains of the US also used to be covered in bison which presumably produced the same or more methane, I don't buy it.
Again, I have no problem with someone being vegan. I do have a problem with people spouting off "facts" that they get from a few biased sources (like PETA, good lord) rather than looking at credible sources from both sides. Since most people don't have the background that I do, I'm being sort of the Devil's advocate here.0 -
I was ok with being vegetarian up until last year, thought I was doing the ethical & kind thing, until I became an on shore volunteer for Sea Shepherd. I discovered all of their crew were vegan and only vegan meals were cooked on board ships. I did some digging about why people go that but further than vegetarian and must say I was horrified and almost think that being veggie is a bit hypocritical you won't eat animals, but you will let them die for you so you can have dairy. It's mental really.
I have done vegan pledges for weeks at a time, and only very very recently have I decided to go full vegan. I'm losing weight nicely too.
For me, this is why..
Dairy cows have to have babies yearly to produce milk. This is the milk meant for their babies. It's like me putting breast milk in your coffee .. fancy some? lol ..These babies, if boys are most often dragged away from mothers at birth & either left to die (I have seen footage, it's horrendous) in a pen next to the mother whilst she calls & bellows for her baby .. (and they do, they cry out to their child, it's heartbreaking) All so I can have milk on my weetabix! Then when she becomes too old at just 4-5 yrs of age (the normal life expectancy for a Fresian cow is 25-30 YEARS!) she is taken for slaughter. Some dairy cows are too weak through over milking to walk to slaughter so they are carried by forklift and dumped where they need to be.
I worked at a dairy. Not to say that absolutely NO dairy does this is probably not true, but to say it is common practice is also not true.
The calves are indeed taken away at birth. Which makes me a little squeamish, but it makes recovery for mom faster. The babies, male or not, are NOT left to die, they will be raised until they're ready to wean and then are sold, typically for 4H projects. They have individual pens near but not touching each other (cuts down on disease) and are bottle fed. The milk is taken out of the tank where the previous milking was held, so maybe they aren't getting THEIR mom's milk but they are getting fresh unpasteurized milk. The newborns are also given saved colostrum (new moms aren't milked for human consumption for a few days, but are milked for colostrum for newborn calves). They're all watched very carefully for illness and are treated accordingly.
It is illegal to take unhealthy animals to slaughter. They will be rejected if they aren't standing. I suppose maybe someone gets away with it once in a while, but not often. When I worked there a vet put a downed cow down, expensive drugs and all. And dairy cows tend to produce pretty high quality meat but again, need to be healthy.
It's not an ideal situation but it's a balance between meeting demand and animal welfare (I'm a believer in welfare, not rights, there is a difference). Usually the farmer has incentive to keep animals happy and healthy as it will enhance production. If all the animals are dying because they're sick, they won't make any money obviously. For example, a stressed steer/cow secretes a chemical into the muscle which makes the meat AWFUL, so there is definitely incentive to make slaughter as humane as possible.
I don't think your experience, or what you're describing, is a factory farm - unless I'm mistaken, which is possible. :P
It was on the smaller side (about 130 producing cows) but in practice was a factory farm. It produced milk for the mass market, not any sort of specialty.
Also on the environmental standpoint with the claim that the methane from cattle causes considerable air pollution: The peak population of beef cattle was actually in the '70s. We now produce about the same amount of meat, but with fewer individual cattle due to them being bred to each produce more over the generations. Yet air pollution is a bigger problem now than it was in the '70s... hmmm. Considering the plains of the US also used to be covered in bison which presumably produced the same or more methane, I don't buy it.
Again, I have no problem with someone being vegan. I do have a problem with people spouting off "facts" that they get from a few biased sources (like PETA, good lord) rather than looking at credible sources from both sides. Since most people don't have the background that I do, I'm being sort of the Devil's advocate here.
did you look at the pollution sources I listed above? none were from PETA. all were major papers, or comprehensive analysis of the subject from big universities. Livestock production causes about 68% of all the nitrous oxide that's released in to the atmosphere in the US. Issues with bacteria in manure has really screwed over Milwaukee's drinking water supply and caused hundreds of deaths.0 -
The main reason everyone lists for a reason not to Vegan is this: lack of protein.
The real reason people want to keep eating meat and cheese is 1) they like their meat and cheese because it tastes good and 2) they believe that meat and cheese is not harmful; that it won't hurt them if they eat it. Makes sense.
But what if you reviewed the evidence and concluded that the correlations between eating meat and cheese and cardiovascular disease points to causation? What if you rigorously researched the issue and believed the scientists who have identified many of the mechanisms that lead to disease and death. Wouldn't you then start wondering more about how to avoid cardiovascular disease while learning more about how much protein a person really needs and how to get enough of it?
Because after all, in 2008 in the U.S. there were 193,329,000 people alive between the ages of 15 and 59. 231 of those people died of protein deficiency. 107,133 of those people died of cardiovascular disease. That's more than the entire population of Green Bay, Wisconsin. In 1 year. That same year of the population over age 60 763,903 people died of cardiovascular disease. That's more than the entire population of Detroit, Michigan.
I'd rather die of old age.0 -
So I'm wondering. How many of the 231 people between 15 and 59 in 2008 who died of protein deficiency were Vegan?
Or I wonder if they had other issues going on. Like an ED for instance.
I only know of 1 other Vegan. My cousin, she started about the same time as me. I know OF others. I've personally never heard of anyone dying of protein deficiency. But I can't count on all of my fingers and toes the number of people that I've known, worked with, are close friends and family who HAVE died of cardiovascular disease.
Do you know of anyone who has died of being Vegan? An ED, yes.0 -
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Methane contributes 2% to global warming and much of the methane is from rice paddies and the methane held with ice crystals in popar regions that melt yearly also contribute to methane. Rice production as a human involvement is worse......you probably won't find that in the hopladogma and if you did I'm sure they would have a stupendous argument.I was ok with being vegetarian up until last year, thought I was doing the ethical & kind thing, until I became an on shore volunteer for Sea Shepherd. I discovered all of their crew were vegan and only vegan meals were cooked on board ships. I did some digging about why people go that but further than vegetarian and must say I was horrified and almost think that being veggie is a bit hypocritical you won't eat animals, but you will let them die for you so you can have dairy. It's mental really.
I have done vegan pledges for weeks at a time, and only very very recently have I decided to go full vegan. I'm losing weight nicely too.
For me, this is why..
Dairy cows have to have babies yearly to produce milk. This is the milk meant for their babies. It's like me putting breast milk in your coffee .. fancy some? lol ..These babies, if boys are most often dragged away from mothers at birth & either left to die (I have seen footage, it's horrendous) in a pen next to the mother whilst she calls & bellows for her baby .. (and they do, they cry out to their child, it's heartbreaking) All so I can have milk on my weetabix! Then when she becomes too old at just 4-5 yrs of age (the normal life expectancy for a Fresian cow is 25-30 YEARS!) she is taken for slaughter. Some dairy cows are too weak through over milking to walk to slaughter so they are carried by forklift and dumped where they need to be.
I worked at a dairy. Not to say that absolutely NO dairy does this is probably not true, but to say it is common practice is also not true.
The calves are indeed taken away at birth. Which makes me a little squeamish, but it makes recovery for mom faster. The babies, male or not, are NOT left to die, they will be raised until they're ready to wean and then are sold, typically for 4H projects. They have individual pens near but not touching each other (cuts down on disease) and are bottle fed. The milk is taken out of the tank where the previous milking was held, so maybe they aren't getting THEIR mom's milk but they are getting fresh unpasteurized milk. The newborns are also given saved colostrum (new moms aren't milked for human consumption for a few days, but are milked for colostrum for newborn calves). They're all watched very carefully for illness and are treated accordingly.
It is illegal to take unhealthy animals to slaughter. They will be rejected if they aren't standing. I suppose maybe someone gets away with it once in a while, but not often. When I worked there a vet put a downed cow down, expensive drugs and all. And dairy cows tend to produce pretty high quality meat but again, need to be healthy.
It's not an ideal situation but it's a balance between meeting demand and animal welfare (I'm a believer in welfare, not rights, there is a difference). Usually the farmer has incentive to keep animals happy and healthy as it will enhance production. If all the animals are dying because they're sick, they won't make any money obviously. For example, a stressed steer/cow secretes a chemical into the muscle which makes the meat AWFUL, so there is definitely incentive to make slaughter as humane as possible.
I don't think your experience, or what you're describing, is a factory farm - unless I'm mistaken, which is possible. :P
It was on the smaller side (about 130 producing cows) but in practice was a factory farm. It produced milk for the mass market, not any sort of specialty.
Also on the environmental standpoint with the claim that the methane from cattle causes considerable air pollution: The peak population of beef cattle was actually in the '70s. We now produce about the same amount of meat, but with fewer individual cattle due to them being bred to each produce more over the generations. Yet air pollution is a bigger problem now than it was in the '70s... hmmm. Considering the plains of the US also used to be covered in bison which presumably produced the same or more methane, I don't buy it.
Again, I have no problem with someone being vegan. I do have a problem with people spouting off "facts" that they get from a few biased sources (like PETA, good lord) rather than looking at credible sources from both sides. Since most people don't have the background that I do, I'm being sort of the Devil's advocate here.
did you look at the pollution sources I listed above? none were from PETA. all were major papers, or comprehensive analysis of the subject from big universities. Livestock production causes about 68% of all the nitrous oxide that's released in to the atmosphere in the US. Issues with bacteria in manure has really screwed over Milwaukee's drinking water supply and caused hundreds of deaths.0 -
This is a completely disgraceful and ignorant post. Everyone dies, even vegans. My best friends wife who has been vegan her whole life just passed away of ovarian cancer and 49. Some peoples kids.So I'm wondering. How many of the 231 people between 15 and 59 in 2008 who died of protein deficiency were Vegan?
Or I wonder if they had other issues going on. Like an ED for instance.
I only know of 1 other Vegan. My cousin, she started about the same time as me. I know OF others. I've personally never heard of anyone dying of protein deficiency. But I can't count on all of my fingers and toes the number of people that I've known, worked with, are close friends and family who HAVE died of cardiovascular disease.
Do you know of anyone who has died of being Vegan? An ED, yes.0 -
(1) WHY IS THIS THREAD STILL GOING?
(2) In response to someone posting a Mark Ripptoe quote about vegans, I respond with another Mark Ripptoe quote:
"You are right to be wary. There is much bull****. Be wary of me too, because I may be wrong. Make up your own mind after you evaluate all the evidence and the logic."0 -
going Vegan is a MORAL decision, only you can choose that for yourself.0
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Also, anyone who says veganism is unhealthy can go suck a toad.
You can be healthy as a vegan. You can be unhealthy as a vegan.
You can be healthy as a meat eater. You can be unhealthy as a meat eater.
All y'all get over yourselves.
-exit stage left the mother of a stubborn, but very healthy, vegan!0 -
There is always an argument when these threads pop up.
These should be in a debate or group only forum.
Not in the public forums.0 -
This is a completely disgraceful and ignorant post. Everyone dies, even vegans. My best friends wife who has been vegan her whole life just passed away of ovarian cancer and 49. Some peoples kids.So I'm wondering. How many of the 231 people between 15 and 59 in 2008 who died of protein deficiency were Vegan?
Or I wonder if they had other issues going on. Like an ED for instance.
I only know of 1 other Vegan. My cousin, she started about the same time as me. I know OF others. I've personally never heard of anyone dying of protein deficiency. But I can't count on all of my fingers and toes the number of people that I've known, worked with, are close friends and family who HAVE died of cardiovascular disease.
Do you know of anyone who has died of being Vegan? An ED, yes.
This is about cause of death. Disgraceful and ignorant?
You don't think about how to avoid preventable illness. Mortality and morbidity? Really?!? Everyone dies. Wow, there's a real contribution. What about avoiding preventable death.
Caldwell Esselstyn claims that cardiovascular disease is 100% preventable. Either he is a bold faced liar, or he's right. No middle ground. I trust his expertise. I'm sure most don't agree with me.
My question is why do people believe he's lying? Is it because of his lack of credentials? Or because they've seen science that disproves his assertion? Or is it because they just can't believe that animal fat and protein damages the endothillium? Or is it because they don't want to believe it because they can't bear the thought of such a drastic change to their diet and don't think the sacrifice is worth it? Or is it because they don't mind taking the calculated risk?0 -
There is always an argument when these threads pop up.
These should be in a debate or group only forum.
Not in the public forums.
QFT0 -
There is always an argument when these threads pop up.
These should be in a debate or group only forum.
Not in the public forums.
But yet you participated. I am here mostly to learn something. Iron sharpens iron.0 -
There is always an argument when these threads pop up.
These should be in a debate or group only forum.
Not in the public forums.
disagree.
this is about food and nutrition.
If every little thing has to be stuck in a group, we will eventually have nothing in public forums but those totally annoying and completely useless "what do you think of the poster above you" crap.0 -
To think that a calf has laid there pining for its mother and that she has bellowed for him whilst he's shot or lays there dying all so I can have a drop of milk or cheese sickens me!
Oh good lord pull yourself together!
Stop putting human emotions into cows and chickens.
Do you realise how much propaganda you have been fed on this issue?until I became an on shore volunteer for Sea Shepherd
Ah....
Sea Shepherd!
Say no more...0 -
You sound like a margarine ad, said in a nice way. And the reason other Countries have less heart disease than the USA is because they don't eat all that junk food, mostly sugar, refined carbs and refined vegetable oils, not because they eat animal protein, unless your saying that in the Dominican Republic they don't eat meat.
LOL, wow. In your link it says the main cause of high triglycerides in the blood is a high carb diet, but for some reason you forgot to include that in your cut and paste ......your hilarious. Typical though. Look out cholesterol is going to kill us all.......lol
Scroll down to causes.
It's from scientific data on lipid and cholesterol research, not any particular Dr. LOL...........the day I rely on personal opinion for any in depth nutritional information, is the day I become vegan....just kidding.You sure about that Doctor? I'll trust you then. I stand corrected.
Hypertriglyceridemia denotes high (hyper-) blood levels (-emia) of triglycerides, the most abundant fatty molecule in most organisms. Elevated levels of triglycerides are associated with atherosclerosis, even in the absence of hypercholesterolemia (high cholesterol levels), and predispose to cardiovascular disease. Very high triglyceride levels also increase the risk of acute pancreatitis. Hypertriglyceridemia itself is usually symptomless, although high levels may be associated with skin lesions known as xanthomas.[1]
The diagnosis is made on blood tests, often performed as part of screening. Once diagnosed, other blood tests are usually required to determine whether the raised triglyceride level is caused by other underlying disorders ("secondary hypertriglyceridemia") or whether no such underlying cause exists ("primary hypertriglyceridaemia"). There is a hereditary predisposition to both primary and secondary hypertriglyceridemia.[1]
Weight loss and dietary modification may be effective in hypertriglyceridemia. The decision to treat hypertriglyceridemia with medication depends on the levels and on the presence of other risk factors for cardiovascular disease. Very high levels that would increase the risk of pancreatitis is treated with a drug from the fibrate class. Niacin and omega-3 fatty acids as well as drugs from the statin class may be used in conjunction, with statins being the main drug treatment for moderate hypertriglyceridemia where reduction of cardiovascular risk is required.[1]
Dude. You saw your favorite words. Carbohydrates. And then your mind closed. Good luck to you.
I was you 10 months ago. Who knew?
What the hell are you talking about? Show me that! I love to learn.
Yeah those evil cardiologists are making up that shiz about cholesterol. There's no real causal link between cholesterol, triglyclerides and atherosclerosis. Tell that to my daughter who is a cath lab RN at Presbyterian in Albuquerque. You know what she does all day and on call weekends? She operates the tool that puts in stents and angioplasties in surgery.
If you just step back it becomes very clear what's going on in our society. My youngest daughter lives in the Dominican Republic. Just so you know, they eat quite differently there. At least the common population. And they interestingly don't have the heart disease and stroke like the U.S.
Cholesterol levels above 150 put you at risk for heart disease. If you have a total cholesterol below 150, you will NEVER get heart disease.
By the way Dog I was saying that in the Dominican Replublic most of the common people don't eat meat, or very little. Most don't have power or EDIT: "hot" /EDIT running water either. Rice and beans. And DR style rice and beans is To Die For. Really tasty. The Concon is the best part!0 -
Dairy cows have to have babies yearly to produce milk. This is the milk meant for their babies. It's like me putting breast milk in your coffee .. fancy some? lol ..These babies, if boys are most often dragged away from mothers at birth & either left to die (I have seen footage, it's horrendous) in a pen next to the mother whilst she calls & bellows for her baby .. (and they do, they cry out to their child, it's heartbreaking) All so I can have milk on my weetabix! Then when she becomes too old at just 4-5 yrs of age (the normal life expectancy for a Fresian cow is 25-30 YEARS!) she is taken for slaughter. Some dairy cows are too weak through over milking to walk to slaughter so they are carried by forklift and dumped where they need to be.
Cows are my favourite animal, such gentle giants and it kills me this happens
With chickens (for eggs) I presumed that male chicks were what people ate & female chicks were layers. Wrong. Again, the boys are not wanted. They obviously don't lay and apparently their flesh is too tough for meat, so they are killed at 1-2 days old. Methods are usually to be suffocated or poured into a vat of water & electrocuted, or (still used regularly in USA but not so much here, although there are still places that use them) are grinding machines. They go in alive. People talk about hell, but I think that these slaughter houses are hell.
I'd already mentioned this earlier in the thread, however:
Calves in dairy farms are bucket raised if they are to be kept - if they are not (dairy bulls, most lactations are to a meat breed) they are shot. This is not news. If they were left to starve Animal Health would be all over the farmer concerned (and quite rightly too). The ones to be kept are the ones placed in a pen next to their mother precisely so they can have contact etc but not suckle - its an effort to reduce stress.
The average life expectancy of a holstein is 25 years? Do me a favour - go and talk to someone who has kept cows. But of course they are slaughtered after their useful life, meat animals are slaughtered before this, obviously (pre 36 months). They are slauughtered to the same standards as meat cows.
Any place there is livestock there will be dead/ill stock. I can (just about) carry a sick sheep - now try and do that with a cow please. Of course they are moved by loader if they cant walk.
Male chicks are usually gassed, for what its worth. All laying hens are slaughtered after the first cycle - again, subject to the same regs as any other slaughter.
A lot of the propaganda is emotive bull****, designed to make you anthropomorphise.
If you dont like meat, dont eat it - and as I have said, kudos to vegans for realising that the wool, egg and dairy industry ARE the meat industry, but if you are comfortable with a swift death (as I am) then there is no reason not to eat meat.
Dude, I admire all your replies. My family had farms (although I didn't live on one) and know the real score.
But once ppl have fond themselves a cause they aren't going to listen to any evidence, opinion, proof or otherwise to the contrary.
But the moment someone shows them a sad picture of anything they will take that and apply it to every animal in the system.
In my experience it's a bigger problem with ppl who have been entirely urban their whole lives and have no idea how their food gets to their plate or what real farming is. They don't see how farmers get upset f they have a sick animal. A bunch of oxygen bandits will find one farmer or processor somewhere who is an *kitten* and tell everyone that's how the whole system is.
And they'll drive a brand new hybrid (I like some hybrids btw, especially the volt) that has had parts for it shipped around the globe and uses batteries containing materials mined in awful ecologically unsound ways and then the whole vehicle is shipped around the world to them. And they'll gain 5mpg and then 3 years later trade it in for the latest one. And then after 10 years and 100,000 miles the whole vehicle will need scrapping and they are horrible to pull apart and have some nasty stuff to dispose of.
They want to feel better by doing something that at that moment seems to be a good idea, without considering the whole, incredibly complex, picture.
Now granted, it's anyone's free choice to drive whatever they want and to eat whatever they want. It's the fact they think they have the moral high ground and are selflessly doing the world a favour I take issue with. But they won't listen to reason...0 -
Dairy cows have to have babies yearly to produce milk. This is the milk meant for their babies. It's like me putting breast milk in your coffee .. fancy some? lol ..These babies, if boys are most often dragged away from mothers at birth & either left to die (I have seen footage, it's horrendous) in a pen next to the mother whilst she calls & bellows for her baby .. (and they do, they cry out to their child, it's heartbreaking) All so I can have milk on my weetabix! Then when she becomes too old at just 4-5 yrs of age (the normal life expectancy for a Fresian cow is 25-30 YEARS!) she is taken for slaughter. Some dairy cows are too weak through over milking to walk to slaughter so they are carried by forklift and dumped where they need to be.
Cows are my favourite animal, such gentle giants and it kills me this happens
With chickens (for eggs) I presumed that male chicks were what people ate & female chicks were layers. Wrong. Again, the boys are not wanted. They obviously don't lay and apparently their flesh is too tough for meat, so they are killed at 1-2 days old. Methods are usually to be suffocated or poured into a vat of water & electrocuted, or (still used regularly in USA but not so much here, although there are still places that use them) are grinding machines. They go in alive. People talk about hell, but I think that these slaughter houses are hell.
I'd already mentioned this earlier in the thread, however:
Calves in dairy farms are bucket raised if they are to be kept - if they are not (dairy bulls, most lactations are to a meat breed) they are shot. This is not news. If they were left to starve Animal Health would be all over the farmer concerned (and quite rightly too). The ones to be kept are the ones placed in a pen next to their mother precisely so they can have contact etc but not suckle - its an effort to reduce stress.
The average life expectancy of a holstein is 25 years? Do me a favour - go and talk to someone who has kept cows. But of course they are slaughtered after their useful life, meat animals are slaughtered before this, obviously (pre 36 months). They are slauughtered to the same standards as meat cows.
Any place there is livestock there will be dead/ill stock. I can (just about) carry a sick sheep - now try and do that with a cow please. Of course they are moved by loader if they cant walk.
Male chicks are usually gassed, for what its worth. All laying hens are slaughtered after the first cycle - again, subject to the same regs as any other slaughter.
A lot of the propaganda is emotive bull****, designed to make you anthropomorphise.
If you dont like meat, dont eat it - and as I have said, kudos to vegans for realising that the wool, egg and dairy industry ARE the meat industry, but if you are comfortable with a swift death (as I am) then there is no reason not to eat meat.
Dude, I admire all your replies. My family had farms (although I didn't live on one) and know the real score.
But once ppl have fond themselves a cause they aren't going to listen to any evidence, opinion, proof or otherwise to the contrary.
But the moment someone shows them a sad picture of anything they will take that and apply it to every animal in the system.
In my experience it's a bigger problem with ppl who have been entirely urban their whole lives and have no idea how their food gets to their plate or what real farming is. They don't see how farmers get upset f they have a sick animal. A bunch of oxygen bandits will find one farmer or processor somewhere who is an *kitten* and tell everyone that's how the whole system is.
And they'll drive a brand new hybrid (I like some hybrids btw, especially the volt) that has had parts for it shipped around the globe and uses batteries containing materials mined in awful ecologically unsound ways and then the whole vehicle is shipped around the world to them. And they'll gain 5mpg and then 3 years later trade it in for the latest one. And then after 10 years and 100,000 miles the whole vehicle will need scrapping and they are horrible to pull apart and have some nasty stuff to dispose of.
They want to feel better by doing something that at that moment seems to be a good idea, without considering the whole, incredibly complex, picture.
Now granted, it's anyone's free choice to drive whatever they want and to eat whatever they want. It's the fact they think they have the moral high ground and are selflessly doing the world a favour I take issue with. But they won't listen to reason...
THIS!!!!! Thank you. People make decisions based on emotions, then find "facts" they choose to believe to support their decision.0 -
To think that a calf has laid there pining for its mother and that she has bellowed for him whilst he's shot or lays there dying all so I can have a drop of milk or cheese sickens me!
Oh good lord pull yourself together!
Stop putting human emotions into cows and chickens.
Do you realise how much propaganda you have been fed on this issue?
And This!0 -
When I was young, the cigarette industry was thriving. The industry actually found Doctors who would endorse their particular brand. Marketing at its best.
At that time, if you would ask the average smoker if tobacco was killing them, he/she would scoff at the suggestion. It took another 20-30 years to reach the conclusion that tobacco was indeed harmful. Someone who trumpeted the idea that tobacco should be avoided in the 1940's and 1950's was viewed as a lunatic. Funny how things change. Back then pregnant women were advised to smoke!
Individuals will ridicule the idea that I would compare smoking to eating animal products. Very similar to reactions about the suggestion 50-60 years ago that tobacco was deadly. I wonder how similar this reaction will be when reviewed 100 years from now.
Its funny how life experience tends to change one's perspective. And the quest for clear-minded objectivity.0
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