what's too much protein when bulking?

EvgeniZyntx

OP: to actually get back to your question, I would look to get at least 1g or protein per lb of LBM up to a maximum of 1.5g per lb of LBM (maximum is so you leave enough for carbs) depending on your calories and activity levels as well as preference.

For you, I doubt that would be more than 150g protein as a minimum based on your weight and should be easy to get assuming you are bulking. I get that amount relatively easily when without supplement while on a bulking calorie level and I am a bit lighter than you. If necessary, use whey to supplement. Make sure you have a good progressive strength training routine.

^^^ This

Op, please listen to this women - she knows what she is talking about. Please ignore people who don't read your posts and make assumptions on what you can and cannot do.

Good luck with the bulk. :drinker:

OP - I'm going to chime in and agree here. There seems to be a number of "experts" who don't know when to stop embarrassing themselves, but here you have a choice between listening to a group quoting peer reviewed scientific articles and who have demonstrated success at not only losing body weight but maintaining and gaining lean mass vs. listening to some dude who is making it up as he goes along. It's one of the problems with the internetz, anyone can pretend to be an expert if they're not afraid of shameless self promotion and making endless arguments from their mom's basement.

Oh you mean listen to the people who have never been in a lab and don't know how it works and who have made no progress in the last 2yrs???

and just WHO would that be?!?!?! and why one earth would they need a lab?

wow.

I was in a lab before he was born. I also learned about language and how to use it. I also took Debating in college. I also have a cat.

Why anyone would listen to this guy is beyond me. I'm not even going to directly speak to him anymore - I don't really follow his convoluted thinking anyway.

Lab references? Is that what we are doing now? Like crm I worked in lab and am even a published scientist. But since this has nothing to do directly with nutrient protein conversion I don't pretend my degrees (which I actually have) or universities imbibe me with some magical expert quality. I do suggest that a huge dose of self doubt helps one, anyone, to listen and explore what is, in the end, a very complex system. And yes, I haven't lost a hundred pounds but I haven't needed to - the amount of weight loss does not provide some level of general expertise. There are good ways to achieve weight loss just as there are awful ways. And this thread isn't about weight loss but bulking.

I have a dog, a guinea pig and a rabbit. The rabbit's name is "Lunch".

EvgeniZyntx

OP: to actually get back to your question, I would look to get at least 1g or protein per lb of LBM up to a maximum of 1.5g per lb of LBM (maximum is so you leave enough for carbs) depending on your calories and activity levels as well as preference.

For you, I doubt that would be more than 150g protein as a minimum based on your weight and should be easy to get assuming you are bulking. I get that amount relatively easily when without supplement while on a bulking calorie level and I am a bit lighter than you. If necessary, use whey to supplement. Make sure you have a good progressive strength training routine.

^^^ This

Op, please listen to this women - she knows what she is talking about. Please ignore people who don't read your posts and make assumptions on what you can and cannot do.

Good luck with the bulk. :drinker:

But back to this subject.

My bulking regime was pretty much as outlined by Sara (I eat at 150 g protein or 1 g/lb LBM) and a calorie excess of about 400 / per day. As I started with relatively low muscle mass (cyclist plus years of inactivity) my newbie gains were about 6 lbs of LBM in as many weeks (measured by resistance and the military bf tool. Not the most exact but acceptable to me)

Good luck with your bulk, OP.

BeachIron

OP: to actually get back to your question, I would look to get at least 1g or protein per lb of LBM up to a maximum of 1.5g per lb of LBM (maximum is so you leave enough for carbs) depending on your caloribesideses and activity levels as well as preference.

For you, I doubt that would be more than 150g protein as a minimum based on your weight and should be easy to get assuming you are bulking. I get that amount relatively easily when without supplement while on a bulking calorie level and I am a bit lighter than you. If necessary, use whey to supplement. Make sure you have a good progressive strength training routine.

^^^ This

Op, please listen to this women - she knows what she is talking about. Please ignore people who don't read your posts and make assumptions on what you can and cannot do.

Good luck with the bulk. :drinker:

OP - I'm going to chime in and agree here. There seems to be a number of "experts" who don't know when to stop embarrassing themselves, but here you have a choice between listening to a group quoting peer reviewed scientific articles and who have demonstrated success at not only losing body weight but maintaining and gaining lean mass vs. listening to some dude who is making it up as he goes along. It's one of the problems with the internetz, anyone can pretend to be an expert if they're not afraid of shameless self promotion and making endless arguments from their mom's basement.


Oh you mean listen to the people who have never been in a lab and don't know how it works and who have made no progress in the last 2yrs???

this is not even close to credible

Sarauk2sf

SideSteel's alter ego:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxfSlIS55mk

Need to find mine!

Crankstr

This topic is about protien.I posted my studies, and i also speak from experience. I have done lower amounts of protein with no problem. Yet when you ask any of the people recommending higher protein intakes, they say "i wouldn't do that. they have NO EXPERIENCE in it. They are just parroting papers with out even testing if it's true or not.

Serious question.

What makes you think/say they have no experience? How do you know what experience they have/do not have?

HOW do you know what they have tested/not tested?

just_fur_luck

OP: to actually get back to your question, I would look to get at least 1g or protein per lb of LBM up to a maximum of 1.5g per lb of LBM (maximum is so you leave enough for carbs) depending on your calories and activity levels as well as preference.

For you, I doubt that would be more than 150g protein as a minimum based on your weight and should be easy to get assuming you are bulking. I get that amount relatively easily when without supplement while on a bulking calorie level and I am a bit lighter than you. If necessary, use whey to supplement. Make sure you have a good progressive strength training routine.

^^^ This

Op, please listen to this women - she knows what she is talking about. Please ignore people who don't read your posts and make assumptions on what you can and cannot do.

Good luck with the bulk. :drinker:

OP - I'm going to chime in and agree here. There seems to be a number of "experts" who don't know when to stop embarrassing themselves, but here you have a choice between listening to a group quoting peer reviewed scientific articles and who have demonstrated success at not only losing body weight but maintaining and gaining lean mass vs. listening to some dude who is making it up as he goes along. It's one of the problems with the internetz, anyone can pretend to be an expert if they're not afraid of shameless self promotion and making endless arguments from their mom's basement.

Oh you mean listen to the people who have never been in a lab and don't know how it works and who have made no progress in the last 2yrs???

and just WHO would that be?!?!?! and why one earth would they need a lab?

wow.

I was in a lab before he was born. I also learned about language and how to use it. I also took Debating in college. I also have a cat.

Why anyone would listen to this guy is beyond me. I'm not even going to directly speak to him anymore - I don't really follow his convoluted thinking anyway.

Lab references? Is that what we are doing now? Like crm I worked in lab and am even a published scientist. But since this has nothing to do directly with nutrient protein conversion I don't pretend my degrees (which I actually have) or universities imbibe me with some magical expert quality. I do suggest that a huge dose of self doubt helps one, anyone, to listen and explore what is, in the end, a very complex system. And yes, I haven't lost a hundred pounds but I haven't needed to - the amount of weight loss does not provide some level of general expertise. There are good ways to achieve weight loss just as there are awful ways. And this thread isn't about weight loss but bulking.

I have a dog, a guinea pig and a rabbit. The rabbit's name is "Lunch".

I am saying there are many things that can go wrong in a lab. Many things that aren't accounted for. An example i wrote to sidesteel a few pages back.

In research you only can control a few variables. not all of them. Lets go through a list of them. Variables of protein intake.

LBM
Workout intensity
Workout duration
metabolic conditions
Total weight
Metabolic rate vs slow and fast
Climate differences(tempretures)
pressures, athletes in low or high altitutdes
Training experience
Frequency of training
Tension on muscles (heavy vs light)
Endurance vs weight training
obese vs lean

So my question to you is, how can you even make recommendations without known the context of the situation? Every study you ever posted only tested a few possible contexts. Which leaves out many others. So how can you even mention context and make protein recommendations based on context if you don't even know the context of the situation or very possible variable?

Is that the problem, you're saying I am too cocky???


I also have bulked in the past... here is a pic before i got fat... just so we're all on the same page, since beach iron implied I have never put on LBM.



side note, what is your degree in again? Microbiology, or just general biology?

I'm curious as to what relation this picture has to a gain of LBM. I think you may have posted the wrong picture.

Also, I literally lold at you accusing people of having no lab experience therefore they know not of what they speak when you have repeatedly said that personal experience trumps lab results.

Sarauk2sf

This topic is about protien.I posted my studies, and i also speak from experience. I have done lower amounts of protein with no problem. Yet when you ask any of the people recommending higher protein intakes, they say "i wouldn't do that. they have NO EXPERIENCE in it. They are just parroting papers with out even testing if it's true or not.

Serious question.

What makes you think/say they have no experience? How do you know what experience they have/do not have?

HOW do you know what they have tested/not tested?

Because I asked them if they have done it, they literally told me no.

What? You asked us if we had purposely tested whether a lower than optimal level of protein was still adequate? Why on earth would we do that when all of the research and all of the sports nutritionists that we hold in high regard indicate that we would get sub-optimal results? That is just stupid.

Also, in order to test something appropriately, you need a control. n = 1 is not a control. Plus, you know that you need a sample in order to test something like that.

You want to get into specifics? I dieted for a year. I had hydrostatic tests done at the beginning and the end. All indications were that I gained some amount of muscle (newbie gains). I made sure I got 1g protein per lb/lbm. You did a similar thing - you say you maintained muscle on 100g protein. Why is that? I am older than you by quite a lot, you were more overweight than me and I am female. All of that should mean that you had better results - you did not.

Thanks but no thanks on doing it 'your way'. I like my LBM way too much to conduct such a silly and meaningless test just to make a point that will prove nothing.

cmriverside

Sarauk2sf

This topic is about protien.I posted my studies, and i also speak from experience. I have done lower amounts of protein with no problem. Yet when you ask any of the people recommending higher protein intakes, they say "i wouldn't do that. they have NO EXPERIENCE in it. They are just parroting papers with out even testing if it's true or not.

Serious question.

What makes you think/say they have no experience? How do you know what experience they have/do not have?

HOW do you know what they have tested/not tested?

Because I asked them if they have done it, they literally told me no.

What? You asked us if we had purposely tested whether a lower than optimal level of protein was still adequate? Why on earth would we do that when all of the research and all of the sports nutritionists that we hold in high regard indicate that we would get sub-optimal results? That is just stupid.

What about all the studies I posted to support what i said... You just throw them out the window without consideration?

Also, in order to test something appropriately, you need a control. n = 1 is not a control. Plus, you know that you need a sample in order to test something like that.

If i got a sample size and concluded "peanuts are fine to eat." Then you eat them and have an allergic reaction will you say, "no they're fine to eat, it was tested on a large sample size." The most important n value = 1. yourself.

You want to get into specifics? I dieted for a year. I had hydrostatic tests done at the beginning and the end. All indications were that I gained some amount of muscle (newbie gains). I made sure I got 1g protein per lb/lbm. You did a similar thing - you say you maintained muscle on 100g protein. Why is that? I am older than you by quite a lot, you were more overweight than me and I am female. All of that should mean that you had better results - you did not.

Age and bodyfat% do play a factor, so I'll give you this one. We can't make any conclusion on it though...

No, I did not throw the studies out of the window - I referenced the thread where they had already been debated. The one I did mention and comment on was the comment you used to say 'I started it' as justification for your insinuated ad hominem.

You do not seem to understand the point of having a control.

DatMurse

OP - I'm going to chime in and agree here. There seems to be a number of "experts" who don't know when to stop embarrassing themselves, but here you have a choice between listening to a group quoting peer reviewed scientific articles and who have demonstrated success at not only losing body weight but maintaining and gaining lean mass vs. listening to some dude who is making it up as he goes along. It's one of the problems with the internetz, anyone can pretend to be an expert if they're not afraid of shameless self promotion and making endless arguments from their mom's basement.

Oh you mean listen to the people who have never been in a lab and don't know how it works and who have made no progress in the last 2yrs???

Do you really want to bring physique into this?

the **** does a lab have to do with this? What you were busy in some lab at a CC? lol

EvgeniZyntx

side note, what is your degree in again? Microbiology, or just general biology?

I'm saying my degrees don't matter. I wasn't studying nutrition or bulking then.

But my background is biomedical engineering (BS,MS,DEA) with minor in biology and biomaterials. My research was focused on cell adhesion molecules, actin and biotin metabolism, TIRF microscopy, valves, hip implants and osteogenesis.
I taught biosensors and biological transport (a systems approach to fluid dynamics, bioavailability, etc.) and based on that and my readings I do try to address specific questions as I may.

Any recommendation I make with regards to bulking is based on what I read and personal experience as per above thread. And it seems that Sara has very strong experience/knowledge on protein recommendations for bulking. One starting point of my reading was a thread she posted a while back.

crista_b

Ok. Clearly you guys aren't going to agree. What's the point in continuing your conversation on this thread?

usmcmp

In that picture I had an LBM of 230 or so.

I call bull**** on that. Arnold Schwarzenegger is 6'2" and at the peak of his bodybuilding career during contest he weighed 235 with 4-5% body fat. That puts his lean body mass at just under 224 pounds.

http://www.bodybuilders.com/arnold.htm



ETA: Lean body mass includes ligaments, tendons and other connective tissues. At higher body fat percentage you could have had that much lean body mass, but it wasn't due to muscle. I know you used to weigh 400 pounds and your body had extra lean mass at that time that it needed to haul the extra weight around. So, high lean body mass does not always mean weight/strength training.

PlayerHatinDogooder

I'm literally speechless at this point.

DatMurse

You bash people on their degree and lab experience. When I make a point about your overall lack of lbm and loose skin you cry to the mods. My point wasnt to attack your loose skin butypur justification of your experience and applying it to other people.

I find your whole attitude on these forums horrid and the regular informative and educated posters will agree with me

MinimalistShoeAddict

Oh you mean listen to the people who have never been in a lab and don't know how it works and who have made no progress in the last 2yrs???

Does it make you feel better about yourself to make ridiculous personal attacks?

Snow3y

I have also been told that most people can't absorb much more than 30 grams of protein at a time. So the point would be that if you are taking in anymore than that at a time it will pass through. Makes you take a more balanced approach instead of trying to do it all at once.

this is a very vague view, I've heard people talk about this a lot... People forget that different proteins are going to digest at different times..

usmcmp

In that picture I had an LBM of 230 or so.

I call bull**** on that. Arnold Schwarzenegger is 6'2" and at the peak of his bodybuilding career during contest he weighed 235 with 4-5% body fat. That puts his lean body mass at just under 224 pounds.

http://www.bodybuilders.com/arnold.htm



ETA: Lean body mass includes ligaments, tendons and other connective tissues. At higher body fat percentage you could have had that much lean body mass, but it wasn't due to muscle. I know you used to weigh 400 pounds and your body had extra lean mass at that time that it needed to haul the extra weight around. So, high lean body mass does not always mean weight/strength training.

I was actually at 295lbs when those starts where taking. A personal trainer buddy of mine who took the nasm with me would measure my body fat with calipers. He would measure me around 20% at the time.

So do the math,. 236lbs of LBM. Now I do agree with you, it's hard to believe. That's what the numbers showed though... He would measure me on weekly basis and they where consistent. One time he wasn't there and another friend measured me. He measured me at like 28%. Which brings me at 230lbs of LBM.

Did I look like arnold? Not even close... I don't know what to tell you.

Anyone could get a NASM certification and not know how to properly use calipers, I've seen it. Based on all of your pictures your body fat was much higher than 20%. You don't need calipers to see it. Your math is wrong if you are saying 295 pounds with 28% (which would be closer to true). 295 pounds with 28% fat puts you at 212 pounds LBM.

Did you look like Arnold? Not even close because you didn't have 230 pounds of lean mass. As you stated it is hard to believe, because it wasn't true.

DavPul

DatMurse asked me a valid question. Which i think should be address so he's not jumping to conclusion. He pretty much asked me to explain my lack of LBM.

about 3 months later


My loss of LBM has nothing to do with lack of protein or any of that. It's about lack of calories in total. I was literally in starvation.

The lack of LBM looks like it has to do with a lack of moving heavy shish around more than a lack of calories or protein or anything else, IMHO.

AnvilHead

I think this thread has pretty well run it's course. Somebody claiming that their nutrition/training regime is superior, calling out Sara and SideSteel for "no results in two years", then posting those pics as "proof". I guess it's really, really true that a picture is worth a thousand words.