Why should I go VEGAN??

I bet all of you preahing about pollution and saving the environment by consuming less meat still drive cars...

also, many vegans who DO drive cars also drive hybrids and/or more gas efficient cars. so... there's that.

SteveJWatson - you make a lot of interesting and valid points, however, I'd urge you to check out a documentary or two - like Forks Over Knives. I recognize they have an agenda they're pushing, but I always think it's valuable to look at the other side's argument too. There really are many, many factory farms in the united states where the conditions are just awful. your experience may be different, and I like that you seem to have many free-range farms in your area, but unfortunately the vast majority of the meat and poultry products in the US don't come from farms like that.

and as for the traffic statistic... i'm not 100% certain of it, but the statistic references worldwide livestock production vs traffic (which includes areas with very minimal traffic but lots of livestock).

Regardless, the impact of meat production on pollution is very real:

ftp://ftp.fao.org/docrep/fao/010/a0261e/a0261e00.pdf

http://www.nrdc.org/water/pollution/ffarms.asp

http://www.environmentalintegrity.org/documents/hazardouspollutionfromfactoryfarms.pdf (this one has lots of technical jargon, but it's incredibly detailed and in depth. the conclusion they come to is below)

Despite significant influence by the regulated community and problems with both monitoring and data analysis, the NAEMS results document high levels of air pollution around factory farms and demonstrate the need for increased public health protection for rural communities. This study adds to a growing body of research showing that factory farms are industrial-scale polluters, and EPA’s failure to regulate CAFO pollution under the Clean Air Act and other laws runs afoul of sound science.

I was ok with being vegetarian up until last year, thought I was doing the ethical & kind thing, until I became an on shore volunteer for Sea Shepherd. I discovered all of their crew were vegan and only vegan meals were cooked on board ships. I did some digging about why people go that but further than vegetarian and must say I was horrified and almost think that being veggie is a bit hypocritical you won't eat animals, but you will let them die for you so you can have dairy. It's mental really.

I have done vegan pledges for weeks at a time, and only very very recently have I decided to go full vegan. I'm losing weight nicely too.

For me, this is why..

Dairy cows have to have babies yearly to produce milk. This is the milk meant for their babies. It's like me putting breast milk in your coffee .. fancy some? lol ..These babies, if boys are most often dragged away from mothers at birth & either left to die (I have seen footage, it's horrendous) in a pen next to the mother whilst she calls & bellows for her baby .. (and they do, they cry out to their child, it's heartbreaking) All so I can have milk on my weetabix! Then when she becomes too old at just 4-5 yrs of age (the normal life expectancy for a Fresian cow is 25-30 YEARS!) she is taken for slaughter. Some dairy cows are too weak through over milking to walk to slaughter so they are carried by forklift and dumped where they need to be.

I worked at a dairy. Not to say that absolutely NO dairy does this is probably not true, but to say it is common practice is also not true.

The calves are indeed taken away at birth. Which makes me a little squeamish, but it makes recovery for mom faster. The babies, male or not, are NOT left to die, they will be raised until they're ready to wean and then are sold, typically for 4H projects. They have individual pens near but not touching each other (cuts down on disease) and are bottle fed. The milk is taken out of the tank where the previous milking was held, so maybe they aren't getting THEIR mom's milk but they are getting fresh unpasteurized milk. The newborns are also given saved colostrum (new moms aren't milked for human consumption for a few days, but are milked for colostrum for newborn calves). They're all watched very carefully for illness and are treated accordingly.

It is illegal to take unhealthy animals to slaughter. They will be rejected if they aren't standing. I suppose maybe someone gets away with it once in a while, but not often. When I worked there a vet put a downed cow down, expensive drugs and all. And dairy cows tend to produce pretty high quality meat but again, need to be healthy.

It's not an ideal situation but it's a balance between meeting demand and animal welfare (I'm a believer in welfare, not rights, there is a difference). Usually the farmer has incentive to keep animals happy and healthy as it will enhance production. If all the animals are dying because they're sick, they won't make any money obviously. For example, a stressed steer/cow secretes a chemical into the muscle which makes the meat AWFUL, so there is definitely incentive to make slaughter as humane as possible.

I was ok with being vegetarian up until last year, thought I was doing the ethical & kind thing, until I became an on shore volunteer for Sea Shepherd. I discovered all of their crew were vegan and only vegan meals were cooked on board ships. I did some digging about why people go that but further than vegetarian and must say I was horrified and almost think that being veggie is a bit hypocritical you won't eat animals, but you will let them die for you so you can have dairy. It's mental really.

I have done vegan pledges for weeks at a time, and only very very recently have I decided to go full vegan. I'm losing weight nicely too.

For me, this is why..

Dairy cows have to have babies yearly to produce milk. This is the milk meant for their babies. It's like me putting breast milk in your coffee .. fancy some? lol ..These babies, if boys are most often dragged away from mothers at birth & either left to die (I have seen footage, it's horrendous) in a pen next to the mother whilst she calls & bellows for her baby .. (and they do, they cry out to their child, it's heartbreaking) All so I can have milk on my weetabix! Then when she becomes too old at just 4-5 yrs of age (the normal life expectancy for a Fresian cow is 25-30 YEARS!) she is taken for slaughter. Some dairy cows are too weak through over milking to walk to slaughter so they are carried by forklift and dumped where they need to be.

I worked at a dairy. Not to say that absolutely NO dairy does this is probably not true, but to say it is common practice is also not true.

The calves are indeed taken away at birth. Which makes me a little squeamish, but it makes recovery for mom faster. The babies, male or not, are NOT left to die, they will be raised until they're ready to wean and then are sold, typically for 4H projects. They have individual pens near but not touching each other (cuts down on disease) and are bottle fed. The milk is taken out of the tank where the previous milking was held, so maybe they aren't getting THEIR mom's milk but they are getting fresh unpasteurized milk. The newborns are also given saved colostrum (new moms aren't milked for human consumption for a few days, but are milked for colostrum for newborn calves). They're all watched very carefully for illness and are treated accordingly.

It is illegal to take unhealthy animals to slaughter. They will be rejected if they aren't standing. I suppose maybe someone gets away with it once in a while, but not often. When I worked there a vet put a downed cow down, expensive drugs and all. And dairy cows tend to produce pretty high quality meat but again, need to be healthy.

It's not an ideal situation but it's a balance between meeting demand and animal welfare (I'm a believer in welfare, not rights, there is a difference). Usually the farmer has incentive to keep animals happy and healthy as it will enhance production. If all the animals are dying because they're sick, they won't make any money obviously. For example, a stressed steer/cow secretes a chemical into the muscle which makes the meat AWFUL, so there is definitely incentive to make slaughter as humane as possible.

I don't think your experience, or what you're describing, is a factory farm - unless I'm mistaken, which is possible. :P

It was on the smaller side (about 130 producing cows) but in practice was a factory farm. It produced milk for the mass market, not any sort of specialty.

Also on the environmental standpoint with the claim that the methane from cattle causes considerable air pollution: The peak population of beef cattle was actually in the '70s. We now produce about the same amount of meat, but with fewer individual cattle due to them being bred to each produce more over the generations. Yet air pollution is a bigger problem now than it was in the '70s... hmmm. Considering the plains of the US also used to be covered in bison which presumably produced the same or more methane, I don't buy it.

Again, I have no problem with someone being vegan. I do have a problem with people spouting off "facts" that they get from a few biased sources (like PETA, good lord) rather than looking at credible sources from both sides. Since most people don't have the background that I do, I'm being sort of the Devil's advocate here.

I was ok with being vegetarian up until last year, thought I was doing the ethical & kind thing, until I became an on shore volunteer for Sea Shepherd. I discovered all of their crew were vegan and only vegan meals were cooked on board ships. I did some digging about why people go that but further than vegetarian and must say I was horrified and almost think that being veggie is a bit hypocritical you won't eat animals, but you will let them die for you so you can have dairy. It's mental really.

I have done vegan pledges for weeks at a time, and only very very recently have I decided to go full vegan. I'm losing weight nicely too.

For me, this is why..

Dairy cows have to have babies yearly to produce milk. This is the milk meant for their babies. It's like me putting breast milk in your coffee .. fancy some? lol ..These babies, if boys are most often dragged away from mothers at birth & either left to die (I have seen footage, it's horrendous) in a pen next to the mother whilst she calls & bellows for her baby .. (and they do, they cry out to their child, it's heartbreaking) All so I can have milk on my weetabix! Then when she becomes too old at just 4-5 yrs of age (the normal life expectancy for a Fresian cow is 25-30 YEARS!) she is taken for slaughter. Some dairy cows are too weak through over milking to walk to slaughter so they are carried by forklift and dumped where they need to be.

I worked at a dairy. Not to say that absolutely NO dairy does this is probably not true, but to say it is common practice is also not true.

The calves are indeed taken away at birth. Which makes me a little squeamish, but it makes recovery for mom faster. The babies, male or not, are NOT left to die, they will be raised until they're ready to wean and then are sold, typically for 4H projects. They have individual pens near but not touching each other (cuts down on disease) and are bottle fed. The milk is taken out of the tank where the previous milking was held, so maybe they aren't getting THEIR mom's milk but they are getting fresh unpasteurized milk. The newborns are also given saved colostrum (new moms aren't milked for human consumption for a few days, but are milked for colostrum for newborn calves). They're all watched very carefully for illness and are treated accordingly.

It is illegal to take unhealthy animals to slaughter. They will be rejected if they aren't standing. I suppose maybe someone gets away with it once in a while, but not often. When I worked there a vet put a downed cow down, expensive drugs and all. And dairy cows tend to produce pretty high quality meat but again, need to be healthy.

It's not an ideal situation but it's a balance between meeting demand and animal welfare (I'm a believer in welfare, not rights, there is a difference). Usually the farmer has incentive to keep animals happy and healthy as it will enhance production. If all the animals are dying because they're sick, they won't make any money obviously. For example, a stressed steer/cow secretes a chemical into the muscle which makes the meat AWFUL, so there is definitely incentive to make slaughter as humane as possible.

I don't think your experience, or what you're describing, is a factory farm - unless I'm mistaken, which is possible. :P

It was on the smaller side (about 130 producing cows) but in practice was a factory farm. It produced milk for the mass market, not any sort of specialty.

Also on the environmental standpoint with the claim that the methane from cattle causes considerable air pollution: The peak population of beef cattle was actually in the '70s. We now produce about the same amount of meat, but with fewer individual cattle due to them being bred to each produce more over the generations. Yet air pollution is a bigger problem now than it was in the '70s... hmmm. Considering the plains of the US also used to be covered in bison which presumably produced the same or more methane, I don't buy it.

Again, I have no problem with someone being vegan. I do have a problem with people spouting off "facts" that they get from a few biased sources (like PETA, good lord) rather than looking at credible sources from both sides. Since most people don't have the background that I do, I'm being sort of the Devil's advocate here.

did you look at the pollution sources I listed above? none were from PETA. all were major papers, or comprehensive analysis of the subject from big universities. Livestock production causes about 68% of all the nitrous oxide that's released in to the atmosphere in the US. Issues with bacteria in manure has really screwed over Milwaukee's drinking water supply and caused hundreds of deaths.

So I'm wondering. How many of the 231 people between 15 and 59 in 2008 who died of protein deficiency were Vegan?

Or I wonder if they had other issues going on. Like an ED for instance.

I only know of 1 other Vegan. My cousin, she started about the same time as me. I know OF others. I've personally never heard of anyone dying of protein deficiency. But I can't count on all of my fingers and toes the number of people that I've known, worked with, are close friends and family who HAVE died of cardiovascular disease.

Do you know of anyone who has died of being Vegan? An ED, yes.

This is a completely disgraceful and ignorant post. Everyone dies, even vegans. My best friends wife who has been vegan her whole life just passed away of ovarian cancer and 49. Some peoples kids.

There is always an argument when these threads pop up.
These should be in a debate or group only forum.
Not in the public forums.

To think that a calf has laid there pining for its mother and that she has bellowed for him whilst he's shot or lays there dying all so I can have a drop of milk or cheese sickens me!

until I became an on shore volunteer for Sea Shepherd

Dairy cows have to have babies yearly to produce milk. This is the milk meant for their babies. It's like me putting breast milk in your coffee .. fancy some? lol ..These babies, if boys are most often dragged away from mothers at birth & either left to die (I have seen footage, it's horrendous) in a pen next to the mother whilst she calls & bellows for her baby .. (and they do, they cry out to their child, it's heartbreaking) All so I can have milk on my weetabix! Then when she becomes too old at just 4-5 yrs of age (the normal life expectancy for a Fresian cow is 25-30 YEARS!) she is taken for slaughter. Some dairy cows are too weak through over milking to walk to slaughter so they are carried by forklift and dumped where they need to be.

Cows are my favourite animal, such gentle giants and it kills me this happens

With chickens (for eggs) I presumed that male chicks were what people ate & female chicks were layers. Wrong. Again, the boys are not wanted. They obviously don't lay and apparently their flesh is too tough for meat, so they are killed at 1-2 days old. Methods are usually to be suffocated or poured into a vat of water & electrocuted, or (still used regularly in USA but not so much here, although there are still places that use them) are grinding machines. They go in alive. People talk about hell, but I think that these slaughter houses are hell.

I'd already mentioned this earlier in the thread, however:
Calves in dairy farms are bucket raised if they are to be kept - if they are not (dairy bulls, most lactations are to a meat breed) they are shot. This is not news. If they were left to starve Animal Health would be all over the farmer concerned (and quite rightly too). The ones to be kept are the ones placed in a pen next to their mother precisely so they can have contact etc but not suckle - its an effort to reduce stress.

The average life expectancy of a holstein is 25 years? Do me a favour - go and talk to someone who has kept cows. But of course they are slaughtered after their useful life, meat animals are slaughtered before this, obviously (pre 36 months). They are slauughtered to the same standards as meat cows.

Any place there is livestock there will be dead/ill stock. I can (just about) carry a sick sheep - now try and do that with a cow please. Of course they are moved by loader if they cant walk.

Male chicks are usually gassed, for what its worth. All laying hens are slaughtered after the first cycle - again, subject to the same regs as any other slaughter.

A lot of the propaganda is emotive bull****, designed to make you anthropomorphise.

If you dont like meat, dont eat it - and as I have said, kudos to vegans for realising that the wool, egg and dairy industry ARE the meat industry, but if you are comfortable with a swift death (as I am) then there is no reason not to eat meat.

To think that a calf has laid there pining for its mother and that she has bellowed for him whilst he's shot or lays there dying all so I can have a drop of milk or cheese sickens me!

Oh good lord pull yourself together!

Stop putting human emotions into cows and chickens.

Do you realise how much propaganda you have been fed on this issue?