Toxins
Replies
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Pu, he want's your email, doesn't come on here much. Send to me and I'll send to his gmail account.0
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Pu, he want's your email, doesn't come on here much. Send to me and I'll send to his gmail account.
But the one time he did show up to crush that Taubes zealot, it was pretty epic.0 -
So basically, if someone disagrees with you, it means they are automatically following someone else and not thinking for themselves?
"someone" no, a "group" yes.
where is the logic here? a group is simply several someones.0 -
So if your doctor has you go on an elimination diet to figure out which foods are causing you digestive problems, is that a kind of cleanse?
IMO, no. It is purely to see what you may or may not be intolerant or have a sensitivity to.,
Because the things you are sensitive to are not really toxins building up, right? Just wondering, because when I read about people describing cleanses it reminds me of my experience. I eliminated all but the most hypoallergenic foods, felt like crap the first week, and then suddenly all the nasty symptoms of the past several years just vanished. Felt very cleansing, but you're probably right in that it doesn't fit the traditional definition of a cleanse...0 -
So if your doctor has you go on an elimination diet to figure out which foods are causing you digestive problems, is that a kind of cleanse?
IMO, no. It is purely to see what you may or may not be intolerant or have a sensitivity to.,
Because the things you are sensitive to are not really toxins building up, right? Just wondering, because when I read about people describing cleanses it reminds me of my experience. I eliminated all but the most hypoallergenic foods, felt like crap the first week, and then suddenly all the nasty symptoms of the past several years just vanished. Felt very cleansing, but you're probably right in that it doesn't fit the traditional definition of a cleanse...
Exactly! One of the big issues in these threads imo is that there is no real definition of what a cleanse is and what the OP is meaning. It can be anything from focusing on whole foods and eliminating processed foods all the way to the silly Master Cleanse. Then you get fasts and detoxes thrown in to muddy up the water.0 -
Pu, he want's your email, doesn't come on here much. Send to me and I'll send to his gmail account.
But the one time he did show up to crush that Taubes zealot, it was pretty epic.
yeah it was! Digital Steel never sassed me again. Do you remember how he brought on all the bb.com guys? It was wild, but fun. He did come on a second time but you ran off to workout! I think I was arguing with that clobercow guy.
Emailed him at home but I'm in Belize, don't know when he'll get the message. Anyway, ss, you ran away last time he wanted you to take care of it for me, try know. xo!0 -
Pu, he want's your email, doesn't come on here much. Send to me and I'll send to his gmail account.
But the one time he did show up to crush that Taubes zealot, it was pretty epic.
yeah it was! Digital Steel never sassed me again. Do you remember how he brought on all the bb.com guys? It was wild, but fun. He did come on a second time but you ran off to workout! I think I was arguing with that clobercow guy.
Yes, digital posted the entire list of references from a Taubes book and claimed it as his base of research to support his argument in the forums. I then went into the nutmisc on bb.com and posted a link to here.
The most epic part was the .gif that Andrew_S made on bb.com after it all blew over.
To this day it's my favorite event on MFP
I even remember someone quoting Alan on here and saying "strong username brah" not realizing it was actually Alan.0 -
If this happens
Then use this
And follow up with this
and all should be well.0 -
This thread was a meltdown of epic proportions.
I liked that flourine was listed in the list of toxins. I should go read it again but that one jumped right out at me. :laugh:0 -
If this happens
Then use this
And follow up with this
and all should be well.
PURE WIN!0 -
I vote for matching spandex because I want to see the guys in spandex.
So basically, if someone disagrees with you, it means they are automatically following someone else and not thinking for themselves?
"someone" no, a "group" yes.
So, if lets say, the American Cancer Society (using this as an example and not actually pertinent to toxins or cleanses) disagrees with you then they are a hater and a clique?
Or is it if a lot of people disagree with you? Perhaps you should look to the underlying reasons why they are disagreeing rather than assuming it is purely because they are part of a clique? Just throwing that bit of logic out there for you!
If you're in a restaurant you see some cops walk in, then 5mins later you see some other cops walk in. How do you know they're in the same group? Their clothes for one, and another is the behavior.
The behavior of this "clique" give it away. It's so obvious.0 -
So basically, if someone disagrees with you, it means they are automatically following someone else and not thinking for themselves?
"someone" no, a "group" yes.
So, if lets say, the American Cancer Society (using this as an example and not actually pertinent to toxins or cleanses) disagrees with you then they are a hater and a clique?
Or is it if a lot of people disagree with you? Perhaps you should look to the underlying reasons why they are disagreeing rather than assuming it is purely because they are part of a clique? Just throwing that bit of logic out there for you!
If you're in a restaurant you see some cops walk in, then 5mins later you see some other cops walk in. How do you know they're in the same group? Their clothes for one, and another is the behavior.
The behavior of this "clique" give it away. It's so obvious.
Oh lawdy. Better tell the po po they are in a clique then.0 -
The problem is that you guys are too dependent on research. You guys say, "well this is what the studies say and that's how it is." Or "there is no science to back that up. so it's false."
I talk to my professors about this, some have PhD's in the field. I live in cali so every professor I studied under went to Berkeley.
The beginning of the semester i told my professor "studies aren't that reliable" he gave me this dirty look... like, "yes but don't talk about it." Science is far from perfect. It sometimes crosses my mind to drop my field because all of the BS.
A good example(i'm making this up): I can study a special protein and lets call it protein x and come up with data that states 50grams of protein x will double the growth of muscle.
Other science can review it and it can be a peer review paper. You guys get a hold of it and start preaching this stuff. "Consume protein x and you will double the rate of muscle growth." What wasn't said was the temperature of the lab. External temperatures and internal temperatures(in the body) usually aren't the same. This can have a huge effect.
To have a good study you need to control as many variables as possible. You then test something. If it works that's good. Now will all these variables be controlled under normal conditions? NO. so the studies are flawed big time.
To come to a solid conclusion is a long process.
I used to debate with labrat about the alkalizing diet. She would say there is no evidence to support it, and the body doesn't work that way. That the pH of blood won't change. Using common sense I believed it did. Now there are papers coming out that what we eat can have an impact on our blood pH. There have been many things, I would state at first that people didn't agree with. I would get bashed constantly for some things. NOw... they're widely accepted. One of the things was IF. I think this was before most of you where even on MFP.
Woo! I remember your early posting efforts to convince the PhD scientists they were all corrupt and wrong - you would post looooong diatribes about research was all rigged, false, rubbish, etc., then quote from your biochemistry textbook about some physiological process that was only tangentially relevant to the given topic. Fun stuff.
I really love 'too dependent on research' - what should we be depending on, then if not research? Website info from companies trying to sell things to perfectly healthy people who don't need them? I'd go with professional scientists, personally. Although I will certainly admit to being somewhat biased, there.
Also, you do know that not all professors residing and teaching in California went to Berkeley, I hope. That would be somewhat beyond their capacity. Also, just being taught by 'professors from Berkeley' does not actually lend your claims any credence.
The earth-shattering claim the 'studies aren't that reliable' is something that scientists ALL know well enough, that's why we usually couch our conclusions in contingent terms 'current evidence suggests', 'there is minimal evidence of x', based on finding a we conclude b', etc. Its not some secret conspiracy. There are many 'good studies' where every variable is not controlled (and almost none in biology where all variables are), to claim that this makes their conclusions false is wrong. Conclusions are made within the limitations of the system.
I could go on refuting you point by point, but I seem to have done it multiple times before and it gets tiresome.
And back on topic: 'Toxins' that are supposedly targeted by mass-market cleanses are usually non-existant. Toxins to the body certainly exist - infectious agents, inflammatory agents, heavy metals, biological compounds and artificial ones. But drinking lemon juice and pepper or shooting cold coffee into your rectum or fasting for 12 hours at a time, or anything similar, is more likely to make you more susceptible to whatever evil shadowy scourge is supposedly besieging your well-functioning excretory organs at every given moment. You body is really quite capable of cleansing itself most of the time. And if not, you probably need actual doctor-prescribed medication, not some dodgy website-marketed overpriced placebo.0 -
Hey guys! I heard we're having a meeting here tonight.
But seriously, thanks, Whierd, for making this post. It's a question I've been asking for quite a while re these "cleanses". Having read through seven pages here, I see we still don't have an answer about what toxins build up in the body that are eliminated by a dietary "cleanse" that aren't otherwise eliminated without the "cleanse". It's a shame, because I thought this time had promise.
Oh well. Maybe next time.0 -
[/quote]
if you have Lemmiwinks in your colon, then a cleanse may be useful... otherwise, not so much.
thus, Lemmiwinks may be considered a toxin.
[/quote]
Paaa hahaha hahaha...0 -
Hey guys! I heard we're having a meeting here tonight.
But seriously, thanks, Whierd, for making this post. It's a question I've been asking for quite a while re these "cleanses". Having read through seven pages here, I see we still don't have an answer about what toxins build up in the body that are eliminated by a dietary "cleanse" that aren't otherwise eliminated without the "cleanse". It's a shame, because I thought this time had promise.
Oh well. Maybe next time.
From what I can tell, the only stated purpose of a cleanse is to remove any "toxins" more efficiently than normal. But I poop and pee like...all the time. So I think I'm pretty clean.0 -
Hey guys! I heard we're having a meeting here tonight.
But seriously, thanks, Whierd, for making this post. It's a question I've been asking for quite a while re these "cleanses". Having read through seven pages here, I see we still don't have an answer about what toxins build up in the body that are eliminated by a dietary "cleanse" that aren't otherwise eliminated without the "cleanse". It's a shame, because I thought this time had promise.
Oh well. Maybe next time.
See the worse part is they're right. When they say "y cleanse that does not include x eliminates x from the body". Yep, because you don't eat x. When allot of the time you need x to live. So for f sakes eat some x. Why do you have to starve yourself over it and make weird poos?0 -
Hey guys! I heard we're having a meeting here tonight.
But seriously, thanks, Whierd, for making this post. It's a question I've been asking for quite a while re these "cleanses". Having read through seven pages here, I see we still don't have an answer about what toxins build up in the body that are eliminated by a dietary "cleanse" that aren't otherwise eliminated without the "cleanse". It's a shame, because I thought this time had promise.
Oh well. Maybe next time.
See the worse part is they're right. When they say "y cleanse that does not include x eliminates x from the body". Yep, because you don't eat x. When allot of the time you need x to live. So for f sakes eat some x. Why do you have to starve yourself over it and make weird poos?
I don't mean to be critical, and I realize that you didn't ask for my opinion, but your diet seems remarkably high in single-letter foods. What you eat is your business, but for optimal health, you really shouldn't eat *any* single-letter foods. Ever.0 -
Not even alphabet cereal?Hey guys! I heard we're having a meeting here tonight.
But seriously, thanks, Whierd, for making this post. It's a question I've been asking for quite a while re these "cleanses". Having read through seven pages here, I see we still don't have an answer about what toxins build up in the body that are eliminated by a dietary "cleanse" that aren't otherwise eliminated without the "cleanse". It's a shame, because I thought this time had promise.
Oh well. Maybe next time.
See the worse part is they're right. When they say "y cleanse that does not include x eliminates x from the body". Yep, because you don't eat x. When allot of the time you need x to live. So for f sakes eat some x. Why do you have to starve yourself over it and make weird poos?
I don't mean to be critical, and I realize that you didn't ask for my opinion, but your diet seems remarkably high in single-letter foods. What you eat is your business, but for optimal health, you really shouldn't eat *any* single-letter foods. Ever.0 -
Actually the real issue with candida is mycotoxin production not acidosis. Acidosis regulation is, a you mention, a fully buffered system - I don't really see why you are focusing on candidas? Do you have a specific reason to focus on this yeast? Been readding to many fad diet sites on alternative medicine? There are several thousand different yeasts and molds that we live with in more or less symbiosis - why does this one upset you so much?
Anyway - let's talk about those mycotoxins and acid wastes for a sec. The real issue of mycotoxins is not their pH but their metabolic activity in the liver. pH changes are generally well regulated by systemic changes and the simple act of exercising, eating or having sex creates a pH imbalance that is then restabilized. Are you suggesting that these activities are prone to create cancida related issues. Acid variations in the blood are relatively small (a pH delta of 0.2 or smaller) and one cannot extrapolate pH dependent growth seen in vitro to pH influenced growth in a systemic infection. When I grew cell cultures (you know I know very little about biology...) and we had mold infections and simply buffering a serum solution (BSA at 5% carboxylic) to a constant pH never ever got rid of an infection.
Standard lab procedure to address is fluconazole - if you are concerned with an infection, I suggest you discuss a treatment.
What acidic wastes from cancidas do you think are "stored" in tissue?
If you also concerned about an acidic environment promoting yeast growth, I would suggest that you look into the digestive effects fo the diarrhea you will get from your cleanse. Guess what that does to your digestive system (yep, welcome to acidosis).
The idea that one is somehow "starving" a yeast by doing a cleanse is again a major biology comprehension issue - do you think that your body can function with zero carobhydrates and that an infection, if present, will not take on its opportunistic load?
Just so you know, we're specifically talking about the blood. By your last post, i don't think you're aware of that.
So are you denying the fact that bacteria, yeasts, and mold don’t accumulate in the blood? I am assuming you seen human blood samples of healthy and unhealthy blood.
You mentioned the issue with yeast is not acidosis. One question then… Is fermentation an acidic or alkaline process???
What do all these microorganisms feed on? Does that help us or hinder us? (of course are some good microorganisms) I am specifically talking about in the blood.
pH: are you saying that these microorganisms in the blood can survive in a alkaline environment? You ever test the pH of your blood, urine, saliva? With proper diet it can be come slightly more basic. These negative microforms live under acidic conditions. There are even studies now showing how Sodium Bicarbonate can affect blood pH. I think I mentioned already how calcium can be leached from bones and magnesium from muscles to buffer the acid to keep the blood pH within the 7.35 and 7.45. These resources aren’t unlimited. You would die if the blood pH changes too much. If resources are extinct and blood is getting acidic, what will happen to the acid? Your body will store it In tissue to get it out of the blood. Are cancerous tumors acidic or alkaline??
I am not sure how you’re getting diarrhea and cleansing to be acidic. I am assuming you’re talking about how fasting can lead to ketosis which is an acidic process. If you are, then you’re going to tell me there are no health benefits to fasting?
Yeah, I pretty much deny that there is a systemic presence and accumulation of candida in the blood of normal individuals. Oh, look, I'm not alone, Mayo Clinic kind of shoots that one down: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/candida-cleanse/AN01679
As to diarrhea, I'll answer your question, since you won't answer mine - loss of essential bicarbonate will result in acidosis. This is a clinically recognized risk and whenever severe diarrhea is present the risk of death from acidemia induced cardiac arrest. It's one of the reason blood gases should be evaluated for long-term diarrhea is suspected.
The rest is squirminess - let's stick to blood and please provide us a paper on systemic presence of cancidas in normal individuals and the acidic toxins that are tissue accumulated (a nice ELISA assay would be a plus) from a major peer reviewed journal without going of on bacteria, cancers or whatevers...
I truly enjoy having my education or knowledge turned over - it is a fantastic learning experience but somehow I doubt you are going to prove up to that challenge.0 -
So basically, if someone disagrees with you, it means they are automatically following someone else and not thinking for themselves?
"someone" no, a "group" yes.
So, if lets say, the American Cancer Society (using this as an example and not actually pertinent to toxins or cleanses) disagrees with you then they are a hater and a clique?
Or is it if a lot of people disagree with you? Perhaps you should look to the underlying reasons why they are disagreeing rather than assuming it is purely because they are part of a clique? Just throwing that bit of logic out there for you!
If you're in a restaurant you see some cops walk in, then 5mins later you see some other cops walk in. How do you know they're in the same group? Their clothes for one, and another is the behavior.
The behavior of this "clique" give it away. It's so obvious.
Dude, you are delusional.
So I am delusional about that we never communicated in the past. I seen you around for a very long time. Suddenly me and your mfp buddies get in to a debate you jump right in and start to be insulting?
maybe, they have you under 24 hour continuous surveillance on these forums. whenever you post, they hold an emergency meeting to determine a course of action. today that course of action was to collect their resources, decide on a plan of attack, and then attack en masse.
or,
maybe, they individually saw on their newsfeeds that one or more of their friends were commenting on a thread by the name of "Toxins" and seeing as how it was a slow Sunday afternoon, decided to check out what was being discussed because the thread title promised an interesting discussion.
i'll leave it to you to determine which is the more likely explanation.0 -
DAMN left out again........................just like in highschool.:laugh:
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
Damn, I too was left out.
Pu, full disclosure. I'm friends with all/or most of these people and I appreciate their input and information. And should I disagree with them, have reserves or find something missing I do and have raised it. Here is my issue - I think that, fairly, you are correct that you are being taken to task and jabbed at.
Well, this might simply be because you do not present solid and consistent arguments and your first response tends to attempt to belittle a person you are discussing with. That is why I used the same words and language style that you used. I think you do have some interesting potential insights but then I see you often arguing for the sake of it - not sure if you'd attempt to argue against the wetness of water just because everyone agrees on it. I say that without disrespect. I enjoy the discussions because they are interesting exercises in clarity.
You cast alternative opinion as systemic truth of science and as a method of overturned knowledge. Biology and nutrition given both the functional variability and the large gray areas are ripe for that, but if you continue to posit some absolute truth of that view point you'll find that most these individuals, and people with science background will call you on it. Do I have doubts about my scientific position? I most certainly do - but not with respect to unclear alternate arguments built on weak foundations and proposed as "science". Structure your thinking and posts, your arguments will profit from it. Finally, scientific language is precise, so yes, you'll get called for it if you attempt to build an argument using big words improperly structured.
And honestly - I admire every single individual you listed for very different reasons.0 -
Since I joined MFP last year, I've also been curious about all this talk of toxins. I never really heard much about it before coming here where everyone is trying every diet under the sun, so I have lots of questions. So far, I'm not seeing any really compelling "proof" that there are toxins and cleanses do anything to clear them out of the body, but my mind is open if people will show me the data! I certainly feel better when I eat clean versus having lots of processed junk, but I've always chalked that up to refined sugar and white flour messing with my blood sugar, but maybe it has been the additives as well. I don't feel like there's a need for a cleanse to rid myself of those chemicals though - simply avoiding them, I'm sure my body did a good job on its own from how I felt.
Can you explain this? My understanding is that only fat-soluble toxins would be stored in fat. So, how would a cleanse eliminate toxins stored in fat? I imagine the only way to get rid of those toxins is to lose the fat, and fat isn't localized to the liver.Also these toxins can cause your liver to not shed weight and store them in fat.
I'm also very confused by all this talk of candida in the blood - surely, that's situations in which people have severely compromised immune systems, like having AIDS, and those people are beyond the help of some diet "cleanse". Well, this is according to the CDC, whom I think is a reputable source based on scientific and medical research. Can you provide a link to other information? I also did a quick google search of exotoxins and came up with too many things that aren't relevant.There are exotoxins and mycotoxins that can develop in the bloodstream, there is also candida. A green juice fast helps with this stuff, and straight fasting.
Reminds me of when people say, "You don't need to detox your body, your body does it naturally." Think of a water filter it cleans out our water. So does that mean you're going to put motor oil in it because "it filters automatically?" It's a pretty idiotic statement.
Of course our organs are constantly functioning. If you over load it, it will take more time for it to do it's job. If you stop putting stress on it, it can finish the process completely.
From the CDC: Invasive Candidiasis
Invasive candidiasis is a fungal infection that can occur when Candida yeasts enter the bloodstream. Candidemia (a bloodstream infection with Candida), is extremely rare in people without risk factors, but it is the fourth most common bloodstream infection among hospitalized patients in the United States.
http://www.cdc.gov/fungal/candidiasis/invasive/0 -
I shouldn't have read this thread. The amount of misinformation is sad.
Re: microorganisms in the blood
Bacteria in the blood is called bacteremia. The blood is a STERILE environment. There should be no bacteria in the blood. Bacteremia is one of the causes of septic shock (bacteremia --> septicemia --> septic shock). There should also be no candida in the blood. Candida is normally a noninvasive microorganism. Most infections are superficial (vaginal yeast infection, diaper rash, etc). If it invades that means you are immunocompromised (AIDS, transplant patients, etc) and weren't healthy in the first place. Again, candidemia is extremely rare without preexisting risk factors (like a really bad immune system).
Also the blood shouldn't be mildly acidic or mildly basic. The accepted pH range is between 7.35-7.45. Anything more or less than that is cause for concern.
If you are healthy and your organs are functioning correctly. There is no reason for a detox. That's what your liver is for. If you need to detox, you're not healthy.
And that list of toxins? Really? If people are ingesting some of those in large enough amounts, the poison control center should be contacted. Sodium laureth sulfate is a detergent, found in shampoos, dish soap, toothpaste (which you shouldn't be swallowing anyway) etc.
Arsenic is a toxin. So is shigela toxin. And cholera toxin. Oh and so is the toxin from C. botulinum.
Our bodies are smarter than we could ever hope to be. Why don't we let it do what it's supposed to do? It doesn't need our help.0 -
Just because someone's a biologist does not INHERENTLY make them right about every subject - specifically alternative medicine.
If alternative medicine worked, you know what they'd call it? MEDICINE.0 -
as I've had converstations with some of the posters in here who are right, add me to the list of like minded people who can read and understand science...0
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Ah singled out! How nice! As if I could care in the slightlest what you think. lol0
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Coach, please could you point out where myself, SideSteel or Acg have made any personal attacks in this thread. Thank you...I will be waiting.0
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Coach, please could you point out where myself, SideSteel or Acg have made any personal attacks in this thread. Thank you...I will be waiting.
Haha but you NAILED the holier than thou snark yet again. 2 out of 3 ain't bad.
That is your interpretation of what I posted.
I was actually referring to these accusations "venom, sarcasm, and insults" for those I mentioned (not just me).
Ironic post is ironic (<--snark)0
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