Where's the evidence re: aspartame, msg, carbs, gmo etc?
Replies
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Don't know if that'd be a good idea for some.Sometimes I think people don't read the studies they post, they just jump to the Conclusion without really absorbing and analysing the study. Then they call out their opponents for their "blind faith" and not thinking critically.
Some questions to ask yourself might be, is this an observational study or a randomised controlled trial? What was the dose and under what context was it administered? Is this a study in a journal or a website article? Even worse, is this a news article where the reporter almost always misinterprets the results? Keep in mind it is very possible to quote a study accurately yet imply a meaning other than what was originally intended. One of the most important questions of all is "do I understand what the hell all these terms mean?" If you're a layperson and you're not spending more time researching the underlying science then actually reading the study, you're probably going to reach unscientific conclusions. It seems like everyone is trained in nutritional science and molecular biology these days...
Yes! Good post. We need a "like" and "unlike" button on here.
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
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Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
I confess I haven't read the whole thread, but I did skim the link to check this hadn't been posted yet. Its a human study that shows a connection with cancer and aspartame http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/early/2012/10/23/ajcn.111.030833.abstract.
From my own experience since quitting diet foods with sweeteners I haven't had a single migraine after suffering for years0 -
I confess I haven't read the whole thread, but I did skim the link to check this hadn't been posted yet. Its a human study that shows a connection with cancer and aspartame http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/early/2012/10/23/ajcn.111.030833.abstract.
From my own experience since quitting diet foods with sweeteners I haven't had a single migraine after suffering for years
FTA
Conclusion: Although our findings preserve the possibility of a detrimental effect of a constituent of diet soda, such as aspartame, on select cancers, the inconsistent sex effects and occurrence of an apparent cancer risk in individuals who consume regular soda do not permit the ruling out of chance as an explanation.0 -
For example, Lets pick something random like barium. You take 1g of it, in a week the concentration in the body will be 0.5g in 2 weeks it will be 0.25g and so on... one question, when does it hit 0? never
Are you suggesting that ice-cream is radioactive?0 -
For example, Lets pick something random like barium. You take 1g of it, in a week the concentration in the body will be 0.5g in 2 weeks it will be 0.25g and so on... one question, when does it hit 0? never
Are you suggesting that ice-cream is radioactive?
What exactly is the half-life of Cherry Garcia?0 -
I have an allergic reaction to MSG so I avoid it. The other one on your list that I don't think has been around long enough to really know is GMOs. (Remember there was a time when everyone smoked cigarettes and no one thought they were bad)
Beyond that, I eat all the food and if I really want a diet soda, I will have it. I did see an article about aspartame in milk (don't know if it's true) I see no good reason for that. Stop effing with the food. Just let me have my milk without aspartame. At least label it and let me make the choice is all I ask.0 -
http://ntserver1.wsulibs.wsu.edu:3020/content/96/6/1249.full.pdf+html
This is from the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition
Not sure if you guys can open this or not, as I'm signed in on a university server..but it's basically summed up by the last paragraph:
"These 3 studies add to a growing body of evidence on the adverse health effects of soft drinks; however, given the limited and conflicting data available, these findings can at the present time be considered only suggestive, not conclusive, but they warrant further investigation in other prospective studies with data on long-term intake of soft drinks, diet soft drinks, and aspartame."
Basically, we have little hard evidence of ill-effects of soda and artificial sweeteners (and that goes for some of this other stuff from the OP), however some studies are suggestive (and I know some studies say they are fine). More research is needed to have a definitive answer. Personally, I am not really interested in being a guinea pig, and I think that soda, diet or otherwise, is unnecessary junk food anyway. I'll stick to tea and water (and wine;)! ) I figure there's nothing wrong with good ol fashioned sugar in moderation (though I don't really eat sweets anyway).
Not to come off like a nutter, but it is worth understanding that many studies are paid for by the food companies themselves, so they have an interest in maintaining positive results. There are many contributing factors to the constantly growing obesity epidemic, I can't prove that artificial sweeteners and GMO's are a piece of the puzzle...but if I'm given the choice I'd rather eat natural food.0 -
I have an allergic reaction to MSG so I avoid it. The other one on your list that I don't think has been around long enough to really know is GMOs. (Remember there was a time when everyone smoked cigarettes and no one thought they were bad)
Beyond that, I eat all the food and if I really want a diet soda, I will have it. I did see an article about aspartame in milk (don't know if it's true) I see no good reason for that. Stop effing with the food. Just let me have my milk without aspartame. At least label it and let me make the choice is all I ask.
It was not about it being added to plain milk, it was about sweetened milk products and whether they could be called "xx milk", like evaporated milk etc.0 -
Note: This is not saying that if there is no evidence something is bad for you, that it is good for you. Just at the present time, there is no evidence to warrant the fear mongering over such substances.
Read again what I quoted from the OP
Find me one study that says "drinking barium" is toxic... I'd assume you won't be able to find one. According to you we shouldn't have fear doing it. It is toxic just so you know.
Way to change the subject, you made these assumptionsThese people would always go around saying, "It hasn't been proven that doing x is wrong, so I am going to go and do x." That's what this topic is about actually. "It hasn't been proven so it's fine." it's a pretty dumb assumption.It hasn't been proven to be bad so it must be good! Not very good logic.
Which was clearly stated that was not the case in the OP
And to fear and fear mongering are different things.
Nice to change your stance from your previous beliefs in the past. Do you eat any of the foods listed in the header?(- carbs)
I am pretty sure you do. Yet I know you also know some of the things you mentioned make people sick. I am sure you heard of people getting headaches and such things from aspartame.
You know that diabetics are sensitive to specific carbs.
YET you still want evidence. As i told you before, the lab isn't the real world. You need to speak from experience not education.
You're going to sit here telling me stuffing a 1/2 gallon of ice cream down your face is going to make you feel energized and good?
I know you're going to pull that crap about dosage. Here is something to think about, half life. What half life is is as time continues the concentration will be half.
For example, Lets pick something random like barium. You take 1g of it, in a week the concentration in the body will be 0.5g in 2 weeks it will be 0.25g and so on... one question, when does it hit 0? never
How you think they did those dietary studies on paleoman diet, from bone and teeth fragments? If what you eat will e out of your system after you "pass it" then those studies couldn't be done.
Yes, I eat carbs, I used msg in the rice I made today, had some gum with aspartame in it and prob ate some gmo veggies sometime recently.
I've also heard of people getting headaches form msg, see Chinese restaurant syndrome.
And diabetics? So since they are sensitive to some carbs and must monitor blood sugar, it warrants fearmongering that everyone should worry about them? There is your paleo logic in a nutshell, some things some people have negative effects from so all should avoid those food stuffs.
Also I feel pretty good after eating ice cream and/or carby treats like donuts, but I don't tell anyone to shove ungodly amounts down their throats.0 -
For example, Lets pick something random like barium. You take 1g of it, in a week the concentration in the body will be 0.5g in 2 weeks it will be 0.25g and so on... one question, when does it hit 0? never
Are you suggesting that ice-cream is radioactive?
Half-life (t½) is the time required for a quantity to fall to half its value as measured at the beginning of the time period. In physics, it is typically used to describe a property of radioactive decay, but may be used to describe any quantity which follows an exponential decay.
Which digestion does not.
Furthermore, exponential decay is a continuous function that is often used as a model to approximate a discrete function. The number of molecules in your example is both discrete and finite, so you will eventually reach zero.0 -
Pu_239 here is Alan's Response to your links you asked me to reference...
"Have that cheeky orthorexic bloke link a Paleo comparison trial that ACTUALLY MATCHES MACRONUTRITION. I didn't think so. Now tell him to go take a bath in a river or waterfall (which he does not use his car to arrive to). Such a waste of time & energy these folks are."
-Alan Aragon0 -
Pu_239 here is Alan's Response to your links you asked me to reference...
"Have that cheeky orthorexic bloke link a Paleo comparison trial that ACTUALLY MATCHES MACRONUTRITION. I didn't think so. Now tell him to go take a bath in a river or waterfall (which he does not use his car to arrive to). Such a waste of time & energy these folks are."
-Alan Aragon
Thanks for the introduction to Alan Aragon. Great stuff there.0 -
For example, Lets pick something random like barium. You take 1g of it, in a week the concentration in the body will be 0.5g in 2 weeks it will be 0.25g and so on... one question, when does it hit 0? never
Nonsense. You can't have half an atom of Barium, so it must hit zero if it continues to be eliminated.
Also, this is biological half-life we're talking about. How fast you pee it out basically.0 -
Pu_239 here is Alan's Response to your links you asked me to reference...
"Have that cheeky orthorexic bloke link a Paleo comparison trial that ACTUALLY MATCHES MACRONUTRITION. I didn't think so. Now tell him to go take a bath in a river or waterfall (which he does not use his car to arrive to). Such a waste of time & energy these folks are."
-Alan Aragon
so this is why all you Aragon disciples act so high and mighty and treat people like crap... that's the way HE operates too. yeah. not impressed.0 -
http://ntserver1.wsulibs.wsu.edu:3020/content/96/6/1249.full.pdf+html
This is from the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition
Not sure if you guys can open this or not, as I'm signed in on a university server..but it's basically summed up by the last paragraph:
"These 3 studies add to a growing body of evidence on the adverse health effects of soft drinks; however, given the limited and conflicting data available, these findings can at the present time be considered only suggestive, not conclusive, but they warrant further investigation in other prospective studies with data on long-term intake of soft drinks, diet soft drinks, and aspartame."
Basically, we have little hard evidence of ill-effects of soda and artificial sweeteners (and that goes for some of this other stuff from the OP), however some studies are suggestive (and I know some studies say they are fine). More research is needed to have a definitive answer. Personally, I am not really interested in being a guinea pig, and I think that soda, diet or otherwise, is unnecessary junk food anyway. I'll stick to tea and water (and wine;)! ) I figure there's nothing wrong with good ol fashioned sugar in moderation (though I don't really eat sweets anyway).
Not to come off like a nutter, but it is worth understanding that many studies are paid for by the food companies themselves, so they have an interest in maintaining positive results. There are many contributing factors to the constantly growing obesity epidemic, I can't prove that artificial sweeteners and GMO's are a piece of the puzzle...but if I'm given the choice I'd rather eat natural food.
excellent post.0 -
Pu_239 here is Alan's Response to your links you asked me to reference...
"Have that cheeky orthorexic bloke link a Paleo comparison trial that ACTUALLY MATCHES MACRONUTRITION. I didn't think so. Now tell him to go take a bath in a river or waterfall (which he does not use his car to arrive to). Such a waste of time & energy these folks are."
-Alan Aragon
so this is why all you Aragon disciples act so high and mighty and treat people like crap... that's the way HE operates too. yeah. not impressed.
Before you get too carried away going off about Alan and his response to PU you might want to be aware that Alan and PU "know" eachother via the internet have communicated in the past and are friendly as far as I can tell. Maybe you wanna climb down off that high horse now before you fall and get hurt?
Edited to add: There are many things some admire about Alan Araogon, his research review, his own education and experience, the fact that he is a very thoughtful guy and is open to learning in the light of new information (as is Lyle McDonald). One of the things that is most admirable though is that he is very accessible. There are several people here who communicate with him from time to time. Within the bounds of his very busy schedule, he is a responsive and down to earth guy. He has posted here in the past from time to time. I'd suggest that you don't know enough about him or his character to be passing jusdgement. Maybe you might learn something if you spent some time reading some if his stuff?0 -
Pu_239 here is Alan's Response to your links you asked me to reference...
"Have that cheeky orthorexic bloke link a Paleo comparison trial that ACTUALLY MATCHES MACRONUTRITION. I didn't think so. Now tell him to go take a bath in a river or waterfall (which he does not use his car to arrive to). Such a waste of time & energy these folks are."
-Alan Aragon
so this is why all you Aragon disciples act so high and mighty and treat people like crap... that's the way HE operates too. yeah. not impressed.
Before you get too carried away going off about Alan and his response to PU you might want to be aware that Alan and PU "know" eachother via the internet have communicated in the past and are friendly as far as I can tell. Maybe you wanna climb down off that high horse now before you fall and get hurt?
^ proved my point.0 -
Pu_239 here is Alan's Response to your links you asked me to reference...
"Have that cheeky orthorexic bloke link a Paleo comparison trial that ACTUALLY MATCHES MACRONUTRITION. I didn't think so. Now tell him to go take a bath in a river or waterfall (which he does not use his car to arrive to). Such a waste of time & energy these folks are."
-Alan Aragon
so this is why all you Aragon disciples act so high and mighty and treat people like crap... that's the way HE operates too. yeah. not impressed.
Before you get too carried away going off about Alan and his response to PU you might want to be aware that Alan and PU "know" eachother via the internet have communicated in the past and are friendly as far as I can tell. Maybe you wanna climb down off that high horse now before you fall and get hurt?
^ proved my point.
And that point would be?? Are you so sensitive that when someone suggests you might be wrong about something and on a high horse that proves something to you? You always ask that people keep an open mind to the things you suggest. And many of those ideas are far more far fetched than what Alan writes about. Once again, as with yesterday, why do you attack, crticize and not practice what you preach?
BTW, I edited and added in to my original post if you are interested in taking a look.0 -
The only evidence that really matters is how your body feels after you put something into it. After 18 months on MFP, 68 lbs down and constant attention to how my body feels at the gym 5-7 days a week - I know when I perform well, and why. It's all in the fuel.
Junk, additives, restaurant food, etc causes crappy performance for me. Whole foods, lots of lean proteins and lower simple carbs improve my performance.
It's hard to see this if you religiously follow a decent nutrition plan over a long period of time - it's the weeks when I fall off the wagon with food that this evidence becomes VERY clear - since I never decrease my workout level even when I'm not getting optimal nutrition.0 -
Pu_239 here is Alan's Response to your links you asked me to reference...
"Have that cheeky orthorexic bloke link a Paleo comparison trial that ACTUALLY MATCHES MACRONUTRITION. I didn't think so. Now tell him to go take a bath in a river or waterfall (which he does not use his car to arrive to). Such a waste of time & energy these folks are."
-Alan Aragon
so this is why all you Aragon disciples act so high and mighty and treat people like crap... that's the way HE operates too. yeah. not impressed.
Before you get too carried away going off about Alan and his response to PU you might want to be aware that Alan and PU "know" eachother via the internet have communicated in the past and are friendly as far as I can tell. Maybe you wanna climb down off that high horse now before you fall and get hurt?
^ proved my point.
And that point would be?? Are you so sensitive that when someone suggests you might be wrong about something and on a high horse that proves something to you? You always ask that people keep an open mind to the things you suggest. And many of those ideas are far more far fetched than what Alan writes about. Once again, as with yesterday, why do you attack, crticize and not practice what you preach?
BTW, I edited and added in to my original post if you are interested in taking a look.
chill out man. the only reason i commented on it, was because you posting that quote did nothing but attack Pu at a personal level - calling him a waste of time and energy. Now, Pu is more than capable of fighting his own battles, so I won't do it for him, but yesterday you were all high and mighty about raising the level of discourse and wanting us to be more respectful, and then in here you're doing the same old disrespectful crap. no one is a waste of time and energy, and if Aragon thinks people are, and you agree, then who's really the one not practicing what they preach?
back to aspartame. if you want to ingest it, go for it. if you don't, there's nothing wrong with you and you're no less intelligent or less informed than anyone else.
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The only evidence that really matters is how your body feels after you put something into it. After 18 months on MFP, 68 lbs down and constant attention to how my body feels at the gym 5-7 days a week - I know when I perform well, and why. It's all in the fuel.
Junk, additives, restaurant food, etc causes crappy performance for me. Whole foods, lots of lean proteins and lower simple carbs improve my performance.
It's hard to see this if you religiously follow a decent nutrition plan over a long period of time - it's the weeks when I fall off the wagon with food that this evidence becomes VERY clear - since I never decrease my workout level even when I'm not getting optimal nutrition.
I am a fairly healthy eater. Mostly nutrient dense whole foods. I will occasionally have food with MSG or sugary treats and eat in restaurants. BTW, eating in a restaurant doesn't mean junky food. But I rarely "fall of the wagon", meaning to me, go extended periods being off a good eating plan. What does "falling off the wagon" mean to you? I've never noticed any performance difference based on what I've described above. I do notice some performance and recovery difference when I don't manage my macros well.0 -
Pu_239 here is Alan's Response to your links you asked me to reference...
"Have that cheeky orthorexic bloke link a Paleo comparison trial that ACTUALLY MATCHES MACRONUTRITION. I didn't think so. Now tell him to go take a bath in a river or waterfall (which he does not use his car to arrive to). Such a waste of time & energy these folks are."
-Alan Aragon
so this is why all you Aragon disciples act so high and mighty and treat people like crap... that's the way HE operates too. yeah. not impressed.
Before you get too carried away going off about Alan and his response to PU you might want to be aware that Alan and PU "know" eachother via the internet have communicated in the past and are friendly as far as I can tell. Maybe you wanna climb down off that high horse now before you fall and get hurt?
^ proved my point.
And that point would be?? Are you so sensitive that when someone suggests you might be wrong about something and on a high horse that proves something to you? You always ask that people keep an open mind to the things you suggest. And many of those ideas are far more far fetched than what Alan writes about. Once again, as with yesterday, why do you attack, crticize and not practice what you preach?
BTW, I edited and added in to my original post if you are interested in taking a look.
chill out man. the only reason i commented on it, was because you posting that quote did nothing but attack Pu at a personal level - calling him a waste of time and energy. Now, Pu is more than capable of fighting his own battles, so I won't do it for him, but yesterday you were all high and mighty about raising the level of discourse and wanting us to be more respectful, and then in here you're doing the same old disrespectful crap. no one is a waste of time and energy, and if Aragon thinks people are, and you agree, then who's really the one not practicing what they preach?
back to aspartame. if you want to ingest it, go for it. if you don't, there's nothing wrong with you and you're no less intelligent or less informed than anyone else.
Well first, I'm very chill. You seem less so. I didn't post that quote from Aragon. Fitnessocial did. I just happened to quote you and that was in it. You seem to be looking for a scrap. I am attempting to raise the level of discourse with you. I am neither being disrespecful to PU not to you. What Alan thinks is his business. Did you ever consider that Alan was playfully busting PU chops? Based on their history, it looks that way to me. I could be wrong.
Why are you always looking for an argument.0 -
The only evidence that really matters is how your body feels after you put something into it. After 18 months on MFP, 68 lbs down and constant attention to how my body feels at the gym 5-7 days a week - I know when I perform well, and why. It's all in the fuel.
Junk, additives, restaurant food, etc causes crappy performance for me. Whole foods, lots of lean proteins and lower simple carbs improve my performance.
It's hard to see this if you religiously follow a decent nutrition plan over a long period of time - it's the weeks when I fall off the wagon with food that this evidence becomes VERY clear - since I never decrease my workout level even when I'm not getting optimal nutrition.
I've experienced the same thing. Honestly now after eating a couple slices of big, greasy, NY pizza I start feeling kind of gross. Doesn't mean I still don't eat it every now and again since it's the greatest thing on earth, but I definitely notice a drop in performance when I eat sub-par foods that don't fuel me as well. Aspartame and synthetic crap falls into that same category for me (well, not the greatest thing on earth part - but you get what i'm saying. lol) It's just not worth it.
Whether or not it's "scientifically safe" is irrelevant. It's also scientifically safe to eat a little soap now and again. Does that mean I do it willingly?
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The only evidence that really matters is how your body feels after you put something into it. After 18 months on MFP, 68 lbs down and constant attention to how my body feels at the gym 5-7 days a week - I know when I perform well, and why. It's all in the fuel.
Junk, additives, restaurant food, etc causes crappy performance for me. Whole foods, lots of lean proteins and lower simple carbs improve my performance.
It's hard to see this if you religiously follow a decent nutrition plan over a long period of time - it's the weeks when I fall off the wagon with food that this evidence becomes VERY clear - since I never decrease my workout level even when I'm not getting optimal nutrition.
I am a fairly healthy eater. Mostly nutrient dense whole foods. I will occasionally have food with MSG or sugary treats and eat in restaurants. BTW, eating in a restaurant doesn't mean junky food. But I rarely "fall of the wagon", meaning to me, go extended periods being off a good eating plan. What does "falling off the wagon" mean to you? I've never noticed any performance difference based on what I've described above. I do notice some performance and recovery difference when I don't manage my macros well.
Falling off the wagon to me is going 2-3 weeks without logging or thinking about what I eat. It means not saying no to the night-time ice cream, or getting a donut instead of 2 hard boiled eggs at the gas station in the morning. It means not doing the things I know will work, every meal, every day, with only occasional splurges. Part of that is that I am very near my goal weight, and slacked on tracking food, but did not slack on my workouts.
So with the workouts consistent, but the nutrition not, I started sleeping poorly, waking up stiff, feeling bloated all the time, etc - I made the correlation between how I was feeling and what I was putting into my body. After a week of being back "On the Wagon" - I have noticed a significant improvement in how I feel.
Re: Restaurant foods are not all junky - but who wants to order broiled fish when a Rueben is on the menu!
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The only evidence that really matters is how your body feels after you put something into it. After 18 months on MFP, 68 lbs down and constant attention to how my body feels at the gym 5-7 days a week - I know when I perform well, and why. It's all in the fuel.
Junk, additives, restaurant food, etc causes crappy performance for me. Whole foods, lots of lean proteins and lower simple carbs improve my performance.
It's hard to see this if you religiously follow a decent nutrition plan over a long period of time - it's the weeks when I fall off the wagon with food that this evidence becomes VERY clear - since I never decrease my workout level even when I'm not getting optimal nutrition.
I am a fairly healthy eater. Mostly nutrient dense whole foods. I will occasionally have food with MSG or sugary treats and eat in restaurants. BTW, eating in a restaurant doesn't mean junky food. But I rarely "fall of the wagon", meaning to me, go extended periods being off a good eating plan. What does "falling off the wagon" mean to you? I've never noticed any performance difference based on what I've described above. I do notice some performance and recovery difference when I don't manage my macros well.
Falling off the wagon to me is going 2-3 weeks without logging or thinking about what I eat. It means not saying no to the night-time ice cream, or getting a donut instead of 2 hard boiled eggs at the gas station in the morning. It means not doing the things I know will work, every meal, every day, with only occasional splurges. Part of that is that I am very near my goal weight, and slacked on tracking food, but did not slack on my workouts.
So with the workouts consistent, but the nutrition not, I started sleeping poorly, waking up stiff, feeling bloated all the time, etc - I made the correlation between how I was feeling and what I was putting into my body. After a week of being back "On the Wagon" - I have noticed a significant improvement in how I feel.
Re: Restaurant foods are not all junky - but who wants to order broiled fish when a Rueben is on the menu!
Lol, I hear you on the Reuben!! Those aren't the only 2 choices though.
I hear what you mean. I rarely go that far off plan for anything more than a day and even that is unusual. When I am at goal or bulking a little ice cream is likely included in my plan though. What you are saying maked sense.0 -
Whether or not it's "scientifically safe" is irrelevant.
Actually that's the ONLY thing that is relevant to this thread. Way to miss the point.The purpose of this thread is simple, if you think aspartame, msg, carbs, gmo foods, animal protein etc etc are bad for you, simply post a few links to the human studies that show it is bad for you. This is not for conspiracies on why there is no evidence something is harmful, simply present some of the current literature that shows that it is.
With all the people here who climb out the woodwork to tell people how bad something is, surely there is evidence that those people are basing their conclusions on.0 -
Whether or not it's "scientifically safe" is irrelevant.
Actually that's the ONLY thing that is relevant to this thread. Way to miss the point.The purpose of this thread is simple, if you think aspartame, msg, carbs, gmo foods, animal protein etc etc are bad for you, simply post a few links to the human studies that show it is bad for you. This is not for conspiracies on why there is no evidence something is harmful, simply present some of the current literature that shows that it is.
With all the people here who climb out the woodwork to tell people how bad something is, surely there is evidence that those people are basing their conclusions on.
Easy with the logic sir. :laugh:0 -
So do we have enough here to conclude most of the fear mongering over these substances are baseless, as nothing credible has been produced?0
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So do we have enough here to conclude most of the fear mongering over these substances are baseless, as nothing credible has been produced?
One would hope, but I'm guessing you're about to get a butt load of "no's".0 -
Great topic! I have a sister who is always on me about GMOs and artificial sweeteners. I need to find some time to read a lot of these studies in-depth so I have more ammunition. Thanks!0
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