Chivalry is dead?
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Not enough men or even women in my opinion, that's why my husband and I teach our kids the same values as you are teaching yours. I am not a man, but I would still give up my seat for someone else, man, woman, elderly, pregnant, injured, child.. I also always make it a priority to be considerate of other people's needs, holding the door open and being polite everyone, including those that are rude to me...it makes me sad when I see that not everyone else is willing to do the same.. some people are too selfish to take 2 seconds to put someone's needs before their own, or too busy being caught up with their own lives to even pay attention to what's going on around them.0
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Why shouldn't chivalry be dead? It's based on the idea that women deserve special treatment. We should just be polite to all people, no matter their genitalia.0
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I try to be and generally I am, but I do find it hard sometimes, I know there have been times when I have held the door open for women only to have them snap at me "I can do it myself" it just makes you want to not do it anymore. I was taught from an early age to hold the doors for ladies and I can still remember the time I did not hold the door for my Grandmother and getting pulled back outside by my ear from my Grandfather and told that was not the way a gentleman acted around ladies.
I guess I've been lucky. I've never had women make comments like that. I've gotten a look or eye roll...
And my Dad would've done the same. I remember the one time my father volunteered me to mow the lawn of a neighbor (and I was happy to do so). When done the lady tried to slip me a $20 to say thank you. I kindly refused and she kept insisting. It eventually came down to her trying to put it in my shirt pocket and I ended up running around a shrub away from her. I imagine I looked ridiculous :laugh:0 -
As a Texan and a former Army officer, I've had the ideas of chivalry and general kindness drilled into me for most of my life. They're the values I live, and they're the values I will do my best to teach my two sons.0
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I am 31. I believe in Chivalry. I always say ma'am, sir, hold open doors, etc... I still refuse to call my 80+ year old neighbor by her first name. Mrs. No exceptions. I would get slapped if I called my Uncle by his first name. My wife's family does it though. Annoys me every time. When I first started dating my wife I would constantly have to slap her hand away from door handles. Especially on double door entryways. I would open the first, she would walk though, and then be the first to the second door. 10 years of marriage later and she has finally learned to be treated like a woman and wait for me to open the second :happy: She loves it now.
But I firmly believe feminists killed Chivalry as a societal norm for sure. What annoys me to no end is when the feminists (who, by the way, always talk down the men in their lives and apply sweeping generalizations to us men in the office) DEMAND we bring up the crate of printer paper from the downstairs storage room.
I appreciated reading your response! Like you, my husband STILL opens the door for me (and anyone else coming behind me)/waits for me to walk through first. He also opens my car door (rain or shine), sits facing the door if we're eating out so that he can scope the surroundings, and walks on the OUTSIDE if we're walking in a parking lot or along the street. When we first got together, I would often forget to allow him to be the gentleman that he is. Like your wife, I've now "got it". I dont necessarily believe that chivalry is dead. Many of the young men/boys at my church will hold the door open and allow the women to go through first. I think a part of the problem (as some have already alluded to) is that some women dont EXPECT men to treat them like women/offended by a man being a gentleman. They read too much into it and start making assumptions that men think they're "less than", simply because they're holding open a door :huh: .
I will say that if I'm out somewhere and get to the door first, I wont stand there waiting for a man to walk up and open it for me. I'll open the door and hold it for whomever is behind me - thats just common courtesy!0 -
I'm raising both my son and my daughters to have manners. Since we are speaking of "chivalry" I'll only attest to my son since chivalry standardly refers to the male gender.
He is 14 now. He says please, thank you, yes (not yup), holds doors, always allows any female to walk ahead of him when crossing paths, tells his friends it isn't "cool" to talk to their mom a certain way (I've overheard this conversation many times). Its not uncommon for someone to actually remark at how polite he is to me just for those random SMALL acts. Although I do not need the recognition (nor does he), my heart melts with pride every time I see it because it is so rare these days.
Now while those acts do not REQUIRE acknowledgement, it is good form to do so. I have nothing but contempt for those @ss hats that will walk through a door he (or my daughters for that fact, as they do it as well) has held and said nothing.
Example: a few weeks ago at the mall my daughters and I were walking out when the daughter in the back noticed an elderly woman and her family walking out behind us. One daughter held the inner door, and the other the outer door while the elderly woman, her daughter, her daughters teenage daughter and then two teenage sons all walked out without saying a word. They then CONTINUED to hold the door for at least 5 more people, all whom at any time could have held their own damn door but proceeded through single file, none-the-less, without saying a word.
When the last of them spilled out of the final door I told them all, "YOU ARE WELCOME". Obnoxious? Maybe. And it certainly didn't teach my daughters anything and of that I'm not proud. But damn it felt good to say it.0 -
But I firmly believe feminists killed Chivalry as a societal norm for sure. What annoys me to no end is when the feminists (who, by the way, always talk down the men in their lives and apply sweeping generalizations to us men in the office) DEMAND we bring up the crate of printer paper from the downstairs storage room.
Critiques people for making sweeping generalizations. Makes a sweeping generalization. Logical.
I did not make a "sweeping generalization". Feminists did kill Chivalry as a societal norm. The movements wanted women to be equals. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. I view my wife as my equal (better in many things too). But feminists did go further to emasculate masculinity as a whole. This isn't a generalization, it is fact.
When I said my co-workers make "sweeping generalizations" about men, I mean things like "All men never pick up after themselves. All men leave clothes on the floor." I could go on and on. These are generalizations.
The bolded part sounds to me like a sweeping generalization as to how all so called feminists act.0 -
I try to be and generally I am, but I do find it hard sometimes, I know there have been times when I have held the door open for women only to have them snap at me "I can do it myself" it just makes you want to not do it anymore. I was taught from an early age to hold the doors for ladies and I can still remember the time I did not hold the door for my Grandmother and getting pulled back outside by my ear from my Grandfather and told that was not the way a gentleman acted around ladies.
Now that's one I will never understand. No I don't appreciate the idea of someone doing something "just" because I happen to be female, but I never assume that's why someone offers to hold a door or help me with a heavy object, and I certainly understand that this is what many people have been taught to do so I just see it as being polite. I would NEVER snap at someone for just being polite, tease someone I was on a date about it and make it clear I don't find it necessary sure, but snap at a random stranger....that's just hateful and rude.0 -
The problem most have (the ones that have a problem) with the notion of chivalry (chivalrous behavior) is setting it against a notion of "equality". or more specifically egalitarianism. It's not an equality issue, it's a respect issue. The ability to respect ones' differences is logical and reasonable. To pretend differences don't exist is not logical nor reasonable.
If some women are content to basically have a male version of themselves, then they're welcome to it.
I suppose most women (K-selected women - RAWR) are more than pleased to have man that treats them with due respect and deference.0 -
Little one JUST became old enough strong enough to hold open the heavy doors where we are.
Simultaneously my husband and I seemed to have gotten the point at the same exact time. A few days ago I went back through the door and told my kid he has to hold the door for me, after we walked through I explained all the ppl this has to be done for.
A day or two later hubs stopped him dead in his tracks for same when I went through the door with bags and they had gone far ahead of me. When he let the door slam behind him hubs sent him back to hold the door for me. It's my expectation that with the reinforcement of two ppl he will learn fast. And he already knows we do things other's don't and that's okay, our expectations are what they are. Other ppl can be however they want to be, we don't care, nor change.0 -
But I firmly believe feminists killed Chivalry as a societal norm for sure. What annoys me to no end is when the feminists (who, by the way, always talk down the men in their lives and apply sweeping generalizations to us men in the office) DEMAND we bring up the crate of printer paper from the downstairs storage room.
Critiques people for making sweeping generalizations. Makes a sweeping generalization. Logical.
I did not make a "sweeping generalization". Feminists did kill Chivalry as a societal norm. The movements wanted women to be equals. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. I view my wife as my equal (better in many things too). But feminists did go further to emasculate masculinity as a whole. This isn't a generalization, it is fact.
When I said my co-workers make "sweeping generalizations" about men, I mean things like "All men never pick up after themselves. All men leave clothes on the floor." I could go on and on. These are generalizations.
The bolded part sounds to me like a sweeping generalization as to how all so called feminists act.
Ah, then I do need to apologize :flowerforyou: That is a typo. I had meant in my original post that "What annoys me to no end is when the feminists in my office (who, by the way,..."
It was a generalization as written, but wasn't meant as one as I was directing that part of my comment to 2-3 women in my office that I have first hand knowledge of their actions.0 -
It is a historical fact that chivalry was a knightly code invented by priests to prevent other knights from murdering the **** out of each other when not at war. It was invented literally to keep the peace.
The idea of it was romanticized by the romantics in the 1800s by works of fiction like Ivanhoe.
TLDR: It never existed. Throughout most of history, women have been treated more like property rather than princesses.
^
Yes
I'm 61 and therefore old enough to know what life was like before those nasty feminists went and ruined it all. It was great to need your husband's permission to buy a car, get a credit card or open a bank account. Which has nothing to do with civility and polite behavior. As a boomer, former hippy, feminist I am courteous to people in general, even on the rare occasion someone is less than to me. It takes so much less energy to be nice and as an old lady I haven't got that much to begin with. I welcome anyone opening a door for me.
BTW, it never existed back in the "good old days" either.0 -
But I firmly believe feminists killed Chivalry as a societal norm for sure. What annoys me to no end is when the feminists (who, by the way, always talk down the men in their lives and apply sweeping generalizations to us men in the office) DEMAND we bring up the crate of printer paper from the downstairs storage room.
Critiques people for making sweeping generalizations. Makes a sweeping generalization. Logical.
I did not make a "sweeping generalization". Feminists did kill Chivalry as a societal norm. The movements wanted women to be equals. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. I view my wife as my equal (better in many things too). But feminists did go further to emasculate masculinity as a whole. This isn't a generalization, it is fact.
When I said my co-workers make "sweeping generalizations" about men, I mean things like "All men never pick up after themselves. All men leave clothes on the floor." I could go on and on. These are generalizations.
The bolded part sounds to me like a sweeping generalization as to how all so called feminists act.
Ah, then I do need to apologize :flowerforyou: That is a typo. I had meant in my original post that "What annoys me to no end is when the feminists in my office (who, by the way,..."
It was a generalization as written, but wasn't meant as one as I was directing that part of my comment to 2-3 women in my office that I have first hand knowledge of their actions.
Do they identify as feminists or is that a label you applied to them yourself? And if I may ask, what is your definition of the word?0 -
I am starting to see a trend, seems the "older" a guy is (mid 30's on up) the more he was taught manners. very few under 30 men have been taught this. I was partly raised by my grand parents who were very strict and Depression era survivors. so to me that might have allot to do with it.
I have to disagree with this. My son is 26 and he holds doors and uses please and thank you. I remember when I first taught him to hold the door, we could never get in or out of store in less than 10 minutes because he would take every chance he could to hold to door for people. It was very cute! My husband also holds the door for people, opens my car door and treats people with respect, as do I.
I wanted to add that neither my husband nor I have ever had anyone who gave us dirty looks or said "I can get that myself" when we've held doors for people. 95% of them are extremely polite and thank us for doing it. We do live in the south, though, so that could be why.0 -
one poster on here did put the Wikipedia definition of "Chivalry", which did describe it as a code to protect widows, children, orphans and the elderly. A few "Ladies" on here are viewing the chivalrous code as the subjugation of women. Medieval times not withstanding, the 1950's of women having to ask for permission to "buy a car, access the bank account" is not an accurate one. Yes women were looked down up on but so were many men. That was not Chivalry, that was not protecting the weak, being truthful, helping others. When you are polite, courteous, AND helping the weak, oppressed, widow's, orphans and the elderly, THAT to me is Chivalry. I do believe in equal pay for equal work, but helping others while using manners is Chivalrous.
I am teaching my sons this. And yes they do use "Yes Sir, Yes Ma'am, No Sir and No Ma'am" and I do not care if that is a "dated" term or not. It is the the PROPER terminology and sign of respect given to men and women.0 -
Have to go to work now. I just wanted to say thanks for posting this thread OP. I really liked reading it and it brightened my mood to see so many like minded people speaking up for what's usually mocked or dismissed as antiquated. Thanks again.
you are very welcome. Thank you for reading.0 -
I am teaching my sons this. And yes they do use "Yes Sir, Yes Ma'am, No Sir and No Ma'am" and I do not care if that is a "dated" term or not. It is the the PROPER terminology and sign of respect given to men and women.
In Texas and maybe a few other southern states. This is a purely cultural phenomenon and people outside of that culture ARE NOT being rude just because they don't understand or have experience with your culture.
My husband considers it very rude that students refer to teachers as Miss without including a name. I've had to explain to him that in certain cultures, addressing anyone senior to you by name (even last name) is considered highly offensive and rude, you must be given permission to use their name, so the students will simply say Miss because they think they are being polite.0 -
I don't know if this is chivalry or just general politeness and courtesy. I was raised to say please, thank you, hold doors, etc. I still do those things every day. My daughter (who will be 3 in September) knows to say please, thank you, and you're welcome.
It's not dead.
Yeah. Me too. My problem is when it's considered "chivalry" rather than basic human courtesy.0 -
Do to others as you would have them do to you! Just be thoughtful and kind to each other! No matter sex, race, or any other differences. This is what I'm teaching my boys!
^ This.....
Great post Tex!
I was going to say just this as above! My hubby does all this. Sometimes I get to the door first and hold it open for my family or someone else! I let people in front of me in the grocery line if they have less things than I do! If you give you will receive! Pay it forward! Those who don't you can still be polite to and maybe someday they will be polite to someone else!
You can't give up on our whole race because of a few people!
Keep on being thoughtful and polite and teaching your children the same!
:drinker: :flowerforyou:
Thank you! and you keep up the same for your children0 -
I do. Basic etiquette/manners are important at home and out in society. I open and hold doors for women (and men) and let them pass first. I take my wife's coat and help her to put it on. I open her car door and help her in (I own a truck). When a woman at our table rises, I rise with her. When I see a woman (anyone really) that needs help, I offer it. There's more but you get the idea.
I was taught from an early age the value of it, my mother and grandparents made sure.
I've taught my sons to do the same as well as etiquette, they're 17 and 25 and always better behaved than most of the other men anywhere we go. I think they're better men for it, though my younger one needs a little more practice lol.0 -
Do they identify as feminists or is that a label you applied to them yourself? And if I may ask, what is your definition of the word?
Yes, one of them self-identifies as a feminist. The other two haven't come out and said it themselves, but pretty much agree 100% of the time with the group when they discuss varying topics relating to men, women, equality, etc.
Concerning the definition of Feminism, it's basically making women equal to men. And I agree with that. What I disagree with is taking the step further by male-shaming or worse, shaming other women who don't fit snuggly in their idea of what a woman in this day and age should be/act. My mother had first hand experience with this in the late 60's into the 70's. She has told stories of being argued/ridiculed with for choosing to be a stay at home mom and espousing traditional beliefs.
EDIT: Hey I was almost spot on with the definition...fem·i·nism
/ˈfeməˌnizəm/
noun
the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.0 -
I guess I am wrong, the life all around me didn't exist. I must have dreamed it.
I understand your point, OP, and I am not opposed to what your intent seems to be, but chivalry has a connotation attached to it which is paternalistic. How you describe chivalry isn't something that is gender specific. I can be polite and help people in need also. I no more need help than my husband does, but we both appreciate it when someone hold a door open for me. I am the chivalrous one when a horse acts up and my husband is over his head, I jump in and rescue the poor dear and he is glad for it. I don't think chivalry every existed, but kindness and concern for fellow humankind did and does. And I couldn't buy a car without my then husband's signature, even though I didn't live with him and was self supporting. I lost my Dayton's credit card after I divorced, even though it had been mine to start with, I was put on risk auto insurance because divorced women are emotional and therefore a risk. The drug addict I left was not, men don't get emotional. During my mother's time it was all a matter of who you married, was he a benevolent despot or an autocratic dictator. My dad was the former, but he had the ultimate control and my elderly mother talks about it and not fondly. None of this has anything to do with manners, but somehow women's equality got put into the mix and I feel profoundly qualified to address it. If I ever visit Texas I would be pleased to have you hold a door for me.0 -
I tend read threads like this or on fb to the same effect about chivalry/common courtesy/manners being a dead and a whole list people saying "well I have manners and teach it to my kid". If so many people claim to have manners but don't see it in other could it be manners is subjective to the person? Also where I am from manners are the norm and see it a lot more then rude people. just my view on it.0
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manners is so not the norm here. Having someone under the age of 10 flipping you the bird followed by a barrage of vulgarity however is
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OP, as a "senior" I tend to agree with your observations. At the risk of creating an uproar, I believe that in addition to young men and women from childhood on, are NOT being taught common courtesy and respect for others. As it relates to chivalry, I think the "women's" movements have something to do with it. Women, and please forgive me for generalizing here, seem to be offended when a man does a simple thing like open a door for them. The attitude is one of, "I'm not helpless, I can do that myself."
When my youngest daughter was in high school and started dating, she went on a date with a guy who opened doors for her, helped her with her coat, etc.. That was the first and last date she had with the poor guy because he was too nice. She and I had a VERY long talk about courtesy, manners, men treating women with respect, and learning how to act like a "lady.'
There's the old adage of "Nice guys finish last." As one who was raised to be courteous and respectful of others, especially women, and observing how women react to "Nice" guys and "Bad" boys, I've found this to be a true statement.0 -
I guess I am wrong, the life all around me didn't exist. I must have dreamed it.
I understand your point, OP, and I am not opposed to what your intent seems to be, but chivalry has a connotation attached to it which is paternalistic. How you describe chivalry isn't something that is gender specific. I can be polite and help people in need also. I no more need help than my husband does, but we both appreciate it when someone hold a door open for me. I am the chivalrous one when a horse acts up and my husband is over his head, I jump in and rescue the poor dear and he is glad for it. I don't think chivalry every existed, but kindness and concern for fellow humankind did and does. And I couldn't buy a car without my then husband's signature, even though I didn't live with him and was self supporting. I lost my Dayton's credit card after I divorced, even though it had been mine to start with, I was put on risk auto insurance because divorced women are emotional and therefore a risk. The drug addict I left was not, men don't get emotional. During my mother's time it was all a matter of who you married, was he a benevolent despot or an autocratic dictator. My dad was the former, but he had the ultimate control and my elderly mother talks about it and not fondly. None of this has anything to do with manners, but somehow women's equality got put into the mix and I feel profoundly qualified to address it. If I ever visit Texas I would be pleased to have you hold a door for me.
Thank you for your last and I would def hold the door open and be polite.
I do remember talking to my grandmother (who recently passed at the age of 92) that way back when, in other states (not so much here) women were treated as you say. I do feel that, those who were treated that way were unfairly treated and it does appear that is was more in the North Eastern and Eastern states that this treatment was more common place. This is just my observation over the last 40 yrs of being made aware of how to treat people. My maternal grand parents were Yankees, Grand father was from Montana and Grand mother was from MD. no I am not discrediting anyone who fought for equality, but I do feel that we, as a whole, have gotten away from helping the less fortunate and as one poster said, using the golden rule.
I do feel the lack of "getting off your *kitten* to discipline your kids" is very irksome to me.0 -
I guess I consider myself a feminist in the sense that genders are equal and I have no problems with a guy holding the door for me if he gets to it first. If I get to the door before my boyfriend I open it for him. Regardless of gender it is just being polite!
Also maybe it's because I live in Minnesota where we are known for being "Minnesota nice" but everyone here is polite. The person in front of me ALWAYS holds the door, man or woman and I ALWAYS hold the door for them. We say please and thank you and smile at each other on the street. I hardly know anyone who is always rude and not just having a bad day. In fact, the only guy I know who I consider to be truly rude is the type of guy who rushes ahead to open doors for women., but he also feels totally comfortable using racial slurs and calling everything he doesn't like "gay" when he knows I don't like it. In MY home.0 -
I wasn't raised that way (grew up in California), but I married a southern girl and she was. In addition, my time in the military has ingrained some of that tradition into me as well. I have raised my 4 kids in this manner. It makes all the difference.0
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OP, as a "senior" I tend to agree with your observations. At the risk of creating an uproar, I believe that in addition to young men and women from childhood on, are NOT being taught common courtesy and respect for others. As it relates to chivalry, I think the "women's" movements have something to do with it. Women, and please forgive me for generalizing here, seem to be offended when a man does a simple thing like open a door for them. The attitude is one of, "I'm not helpless, I can do that myself."
When my youngest daughter was in high school and started dating, she went on a date with a guy who opened doors for her, helped her with her coat, etc.. That was the first and last date she had with the poor guy because he was too nice. She and I had a VERY long talk about courtesy, manners, men treating women with respect, and learning how to act like a "lady.'
There's the old adage of "Nice guys finish last." As one who was raised to be courteous and respectful of others, especially women, and observing how women react to "Nice" guys and "Bad" boys, I've found this to be a true statement.
well it is not that "Nice guys finish last" - boring ones do. you can be a nice guy and be fun and everything else. I think some ppl have pushed it that Nice guys are boring therefore do finish last. I never did. I did see the "bad" boys getting the ladies....but then after one or two dates..the ladies dumped them and the bad boys were the ones who were alone.... and some still are.0
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