Chivalry is dead?
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I am slowly making my way through this thread.. only page 3 so far, but I wanted to say that you all or ya'll as I'm Texan, are restoring my faith in humanity!
I've always been one for general politeness. When I go out, I make eye contact and smile at people, and I'm always dismayed that most of the people glare at me as if I've lost my mind or am somehow insulting them. More and more I've seen simple civility go out the window. People on their phones at the store don't even bother to make eye contact with their cashier let alone say "thank you" for the service provided, things like that are kinda scary actually. Online is truly scary, because you don't have to actually face someone, people just let their worst sides out and don't think twice about hurting another human with their words and attitudes.
But all that ickyness to say to you all... THANK YOU! For fighting the good fight and passing it on to your children. Amen to the poster that said basically, he acts right to be an example to anyone looking for an example.0 -
How did this become about the workplace at all? I mean, I know feminism got mentioned, but that's kind of a departure...
Anyway, to make up for every woman I've ever called "ma'am," held the door open for, pulled the chair out for, helped with yard work, sprinklers, auto repairs, homework, heavy-lifting (because, you know, EVERY woman on earth is as in-shape as the women on this forum), or given a compliment to, I went out yesterday and punched like 4,713 women and said "I take it back."
We all good now?
Lol. I really hope 4713 men don't punch me today to make up for all the doors that have been opened for me. I am staying home!0 -
It's easy to teach men to be chivarous. Just stand at the door and smile sweetly. Try it, it works.
oh no.
Please don't tell me you do this.
Ok. I won't tell you I do this. :bigsmile:
Or get my chair pulled out. And my coat put on. And my car parked.
I won't tell you that after morning "fun" I get up and cook a hot breakfast for hubs before he goes to work.
I wouldn't tell you those things - you'd be appalled. LOL.0 -
why does every post about chivalry turn into "omg men think they're better than women"
The same reason chivalry is dead.0 -
So will I and thank you as well to anyone who does this.I was raised to be chivalrous. My generation seems to think that when a guy who was raised like myself is being themselves, that they are trying to hit on them or get in their pants by being chivalrous. Messed up..... Sick of it.
Just wanted to say thanks to all the guys who still do show respect w/out expecting anything in return. Carry on. I'll keep smiling and thanking you when you open doors for me.
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You could be that way because you're in Texas, or you could be that way because of your military history. Regardless, I have serious doubts that parents are still teaching their kids manners today, whether they be boys or girls.
Speak for yourself, my 2 year old doesn't get jack crap unless he say "please", and then if he doesn't say "thank you" once he's got it, he loses it. He almost NEVER needs to be prompted anymore. I raise exceptionally polite children.0 -
You could be that way because you're in Texas, or you could be that way because of your military history. Regardless, I have serious doubts that parents are still teaching their kids manners today, whether they be boys or girls.
Speak for yourself, my 2 year old doesn't get jack crap unless he say "please", and then if he doesn't say "thank you" once he's got it, he loses it. He almost NEVER needs to be prompted anymore. I raise exceptionally polite children.
Ditto. Excuse me, please and thank you are required in our home. That's just basic. If parents don't teach their kids to have self respect and respect for others, who will?0 -
Uh, also, I like for men to treat me nicely. Don't have a problem with that. If my husband opens my car door, that is sweet. He doesn't always do that, but sometimes he does.
When we are picking up luggage off the conveyer belt at the airport I might say, "I can get these. I'm strong too, that's why I lift all those weights".
Either way does not matter. People can be chivalrous and I am happy. And I can say, "Hey, I'm strong" without it being some big issue, either.0 -
My college Gender Studies classes consistently held that treating you differently because of your gender is the very essence of sexism. Could you clarify why treating different sexes differently is not, in fact, sexism?LOL. I knew this would turn into some huge deal.
It is not sexist for a guy to treat me like a lady because I am ....wait for it....a lady ...
(Ok, so maybe a lady with a sailor's mouth who can burp really loudly, but whatever.)
(And by a "treat me like a lady" I mean be a little more polite to me than if I was some dude.....don't scratch your balls in front of me and I won't burp really loudly in front of you).
ETA---my husband gets the burps. Sorry, honey.0 -
How did this become about the workplace at all? I mean, I know feminism got mentioned, but that's kind of a departure...
Anyway, to make up for every woman I've ever called "ma'am," held the door open for, pulled the chair out for, helped with yard work, sprinklers, auto repairs, homework, heavy-lifting (because, you know, EVERY woman on earth is as in-shape as the women on this forum), or given a compliment to, I went out yesterday and punched like 4,713 women and said "I take it back."
We all good now?
One of my guy friends had to wait for three hours in the snow when his car broke down. Motorist after motorist passed him without an offer of help because he's a guy and has resources and doesn't need doors held for him or the kindness of strangers ever.
I guess it just sucks to be you if you ever need help with yard work, etc because theres a difference between men and women.0 -
I am teaching my sons this. And yes they do use "Yes Sir, Yes Ma'am, No Sir and No Ma'am" and I do not care if that is a "dated" term or not. It is the the PROPER terminology and sign of respect given to men and women.
At my daughter's middle school graduation her principal made this comment "at our school we use yes sir and yes ma'am, if it's good enough for our military members it is good enough for us".
It is still a cultural expectation, not a requirement for courtesy everywhere.
Yes sir and yes ma'am would not be considered polite in Australia, they would be considered OTT and ridiculous.
People say please and thank you, but not the sir, ma'am part - nobody uses that here in general conversation. Doesnt mean they are not polite, just that it isn't the norm here.
Likewise someone upthread mentioned looking people in the eye when talking to them - some indigenous cultures in Australia find looking people in the eye rude and some indigenous people find this quite confronting when other people do it.
I don't like the word chivalry - it has paternalistic and patronizing overtones to me.
Courtesy, yes - but that applies to both genders. holding door open for the person coming behind you, regardless of their gender helping anyone with heavy loads etc.
I would ask a young strong man at work to help me with something heavy - I don't see this as a double standard - if he is obviously stronger than me. Like I would ask someone taller than me to get something from a high shelf - not because he is a man but because I am short.0 -
Where I am from we say; Nosah Nosaaaah and Yesah and Yeah-hah.
I think this must come from no sir and yes sir.
http://youtu.be/FEm0t5Wc11U 0 -
I'm going to quote (and translate) what an old chemistry teacher of mine once said:
As much as I hated what he taught, he was a cool guy and his attitude is one I've always emulated.I really don't care how you refer to me. It's possible to say "sir" as in "fuk off, sir" and just as possible to say "Sylvain" in a respectful way.0 -
I am teaching my sons this. And yes they do use "Yes Sir, Yes Ma'am, No Sir and No Ma'am" and I do not care if that is a "dated" term or not. It is the the PROPER terminology and sign of respect given to men and women.
At my daughter's middle school graduation her principal made this comment "at our school we use yes sir and yes ma'am, if it's good enough for our military members it is good enough for us".
It is still a cultural expectation, not a requirement for courtesy everywhere.
Yes sir and yes ma'am would not be considered polite in Australia, they would be considered OTT and ridiculous.
People say please and thank you, but not the sir, ma'am part - nobody uses that here in general conversation. Doesnt mean they are not polite, just that it isn't the norm here.
Likewise someone upthread mentioned looking people in the eye when talking to them - some indigenous cultures in Australia find looking people in the eye rude and some indigenous people find this quite confronting when other people do it.
I don't like the word chivalry - it has paternalistic and patronizing overtones to me.
Courtesy, yes - but that applies to both genders. holding door open for the person coming behind you, regardless of their gender helping anyone with heavy loads etc.
I would ask a young strong man at work to help me with something heavy - I don't see this as a double standard - if he is obviously stronger than me. Like I would ask someone taller than me to get something from a high shelf - not because he is a man but because I am short.
Chivalry is getting cookies for basic courtesy.0 -
My college Gender Studies classes consistently held that treating you differently because of your gender is the very essence of sexism. Could you clarify why treating different sexes differently is not, in fact, sexism?LOL. I knew this would turn into some huge deal.
It is not sexist for a guy to treat me like a lady because I am ....wait for it....a lady ...
(Ok, so maybe a lady with a sailor's mouth who can burp really loudly, but whatever.)
(And by a "treat me like a lady" I mean be a little more polite to me than if I was some dude.....don't scratch your balls in front of me and I won't burp really loudly in front of you).
ETA---my husband gets the burps. Sorry, honey.
Well perhaps it is sexism to a degree if by that collegiate black and white definition. So then, I suppose in my personal opinion a small degree of sexism isn't a horrible thing. I do not have the same relationships with men as I do with other women. I just don't. It's not because I view one gender as inferior, but we are to some degree different. For real. We all are worthy humans with feelings, but just as our bodies are different, so are our minds. So if a man, out of "chivalry" treats me with a little more of a gentleness than he would a guy friend, I would not be at all offended by that.
The alternative is that on a bad/angry/frustrated day (we all have them) a man who is unchivalrous would theoretically engage with a woman in the same way he would another man. And call me crazy, but I think the world is a more pleasant place when men don't behave agressively toward women. (You know, unless we want them to.)0 -
The point is that there are situations where I will treat women differently than men, as my instincts for self preservation are stronger than your punches, but no worries there.
Look, I'm not even going to try and argue that there aren't glaring instances of double standards, especially in the work place. I've seen my husband have to deal with them. I honestly and 100% despise those double standards more than just about anything else. But that is playing office politics and is somewhat different than the issue of this thread. My point is, no you *shouldn't* have to treat women differently then men, you *shouldn't* have to be less critical of them because it might hurt their feelings or some such nonsense.
On the other hand, you're not being comfortable with crying really is *your* issue, not the woman's. Crying is a stress coping mechanism, plain and simple, if she's crying, let her. She'll either come out the other end stronger or she won't, but how she copes with a stressful situation is not something you should have to concern yourself with, unless of course there's the aforementioned double standard issue, and then yea, you're pretty much just screwed on that one and I do feel for you on it.
Now I've procrastinated on my run enough, I'm off.
So, except in the real world we're all the same. Got it!
See above mentioned bell curve. Yes I know the real world exists, doesn't mean we shouldn't be critical of problems we see and try for something better. Now I'm really off!
I'm busting your lady balls. I actually like the differences between men and women, and still manage to be respectful at work, be playful with my wife, and raise a couple of intelligent, strong, and beautiful daughters. Context matters, but yea, men and women have a few differences and individuals have preferences for different things. No biggie. The world isn't that hard to navigate
LOL, no worries there. I really don't take most of this stuff too seriously but it's a fun topic to debate with enough complexity to keep it interesting. :drinker:0 -
So, it's okay if I treat Pat differently than Chris because one of them is - or identifies as - female? Is it okay if I treat Pat differently than Chris because one of them is of Pacific Islander descent? If not, what's the distinction, and what inequalities are, in your opinion, acceptable?
My college Gender Studies classes consistently held that treating you differently because of your gender is the very essence of sexism. Could you clarify why treating different sexes differently is not, in fact, sexism?LOL. I knew this would turn into some huge deal.
It is not sexist for a guy to treat me like a lady because I am ....wait for it....a lady ...
(Ok, so maybe a lady with a sailor's mouth who can burp really loudly, but whatever.)
(And by a "treat me like a lady" I mean be a little more polite to me than if I was some dude.....don't scratch your balls in front of me and I won't burp really loudly in front of you).
ETA---my husband gets the burps. Sorry, honey.
Well perhaps it is sexism to a degree if by that collegiate black and white definition. So then, I suppose in my personal opinion a small degree of sexism isn't a horrible thing. I do not have the same relationships with men as I do with other women. I just don't. It's not because I view one gender as inferior, but we are to some degree different. For real. We all are worthy humans with feelings, but just as our bodies are different, so are our minds. So if a man, out of "chivalry" treats me with a little more of a gentleness than he would a guy friend, I would not be at all offended by that.
The alternative is that on a bad/angry/frustrated day (we all have them) a man who is unchivalrous would theoretically engage with a woman in the same way he would another man. And call me crazy, but I think the world is a more pleasant place when men don't behave agressively toward women. (You know, unless we want them to.)0 -
How did this become about the workplace at all? I mean, I know feminism got mentioned, but that's kind of a departure...
Anyway, to make up for every woman I've ever called "ma'am," held the door open for, pulled the chair out for, helped with yard work, sprinklers, auto repairs, homework, heavy-lifting (because, you know, EVERY woman on earth is as in-shape as the women on this forum), or given a compliment to, I went out yesterday and punched like 4,713 women and said "I take it back."
We all good now?
Ok, so all I could think of from this was about my husband when we first started dating. He would tell you that when I get annoyed I tend to, ahem, *communicate* with my fists. It took forever for me to convince him that he really was allowed to hit me back because of course his mom had always told him to never hit a woman. Now I agree entirely that you should never hit someone in anger (as much as I might want to sometimes), or use physical superiority to dominate someone weaker than you, but if I'm joking around and punch him in the arm, I really don't expect him to just sit their and let me!0 -
So, it's okay if I treat Pat differently than Chris because one of them is - or identifies as - female? Is it okay if I treat Pat differently than Chris because one of them is of Pacific Islander descent? If not, what's the distinction, and what inequalities are, in your opinion, acceptable?
My college Gender Studies classes consistently held that treating you differently because of your gender is the very essence of sexism. Could you clarify why treating different sexes differently is not, in fact, sexism?LOL. I knew this would turn into some huge deal.
It is not sexist for a guy to treat me like a lady because I am ....wait for it....a lady ...
(Ok, so maybe a lady with a sailor's mouth who can burp really loudly, but whatever.)
(And by a "treat me like a lady" I mean be a little more polite to me than if I was some dude.....don't scratch your balls in front of me and I won't burp really loudly in front of you).
ETA---my husband gets the burps. Sorry, honey.
Well perhaps it is sexism to a degree if by that collegiate black and white definition. So then, I suppose in my personal opinion a small degree of sexism isn't a horrible thing. I do not have the same relationships with men as I do with other women. I just don't. It's not because I view one gender as inferior, but we are to some degree different. For real. We all are worthy humans with feelings, but just as our bodies are different, so are our minds. So if a man, out of "chivalry" treats me with a little more of a gentleness than he would a guy friend, I would not be at all offended by that.
The alternative is that on a bad/angry/frustrated day (we all have them) a man who is unchivalrous would theoretically engage with a woman in the same way he would another man. And call me crazy, but I think the world is a more pleasant place when men don't behave agressively toward women. (You know, unless we want them to.)
Race/ethnicity is not the same as gender. There are chromosomal differences of course, but not as distinctive as xy and xx. I do understand there are different degrees of gender (as in your reference to "identifies as"). I, for one, feel like I have a lot of stereotypically masculine qualities, and I do enjoy a "one of the guys" type friendship with some people.
Ok, so all of that said, what is YOUR opinion on all of this since you are so interested in quizzing mine? Attraction aside, do you find yourself having the exact same kinds of platonic interactions/relationships with males as females? Is that even possible? Is it possible to have a world where we are all kind to each other in such a way that I don't thave to teach my sons that it's never ok to hit a girl?.....because they would never dream of hitting anyone?
I don't believe it.0 -
How did this become about the workplace at all? I mean, I know feminism got mentioned, but that's kind of a departure...
Anyway, to make up for every woman I've ever called "ma'am," held the door open for, pulled the chair out for, helped with yard work, sprinklers, auto repairs, homework, heavy-lifting (because, you know, EVERY woman on earth is as in-shape as the women on this forum), or given a compliment to, I went out yesterday and punched like 4,713 women and said "I take it back."
We all good now?
Ok, so all I could think of from this was about my husband when we first started dating. He would tell you that when I get annoyed I tend to, ahem, *communicate* with my fists. It took forever for me to convince him that he really was allowed to hit me back because of course his mom had always told him to never hit a woman. Now I agree entirely that you should never hit someone in anger (as much as I might want to sometimes), or use physical superiority to dominate someone weaker than you, but if I'm joking around and punch him in the arm, I really don't expect him to just sit their and let me!
Yeah but if he punches you in the face, it would probably be a lot worse than if you punched him. Obviously, that would be a horrible thing for you to do as well. You think Rhianna could have done to Chris Brown's stupid face what he did to hers? If she had a baseball bat, maybe.0
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