Chivalry is dead?
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How did this become about the workplace at all? I mean, I know feminism got mentioned, but that's kind of a departure...
Anyway, to make up for every woman I've ever called "ma'am," held the door open for, pulled the chair out for, helped with yard work, sprinklers, auto repairs, homework, heavy-lifting (because, you know, EVERY woman on earth is as in-shape as the women on this forum), or given a compliment to, I went out yesterday and punched like 4,713 women and said "I take it back."
We all good now?
Ok, so all I could think of from this was about my husband when we first started dating. He would tell you that when I get annoyed I tend to, ahem, *communicate* with my fists. It took forever for me to convince him that he really was allowed to hit me back because of course his mom had always told him to never hit a woman. Now I agree entirely that you should never hit someone in anger (as much as I might want to sometimes), or use physical superiority to dominate someone weaker than you, but if I'm joking around and punch him in the arm, I really don't expect him to just sit their and let me!
Yeah but if he punches you in the face, it would probably be a lot worse than if you punched him. Obviously, that would be a horrible thing for you to do as well. You think Rhianna could have done to Chris Brown's stupid face what he did to hers? If she had a baseball bat, maybe.
Hence my comment on not punching in anger and not using superior physical strength for domination. That's never ok, in any situation. I'm actually bigger than a lot of guys, and if I was in a relationship with a guy that was smaller than me and used my larger size to hit him or antagonize him in some way, that shouldn't be treated any differently.0 -
Looking 4 manners at Chic-Fil-A :huh:0
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How did this become about the workplace at all? I mean, I know feminism got mentioned, but that's kind of a departure...
Anyway, to make up for every woman I've ever called "ma'am," held the door open for, pulled the chair out for, helped with yard work, sprinklers, auto repairs, homework, heavy-lifting (because, you know, EVERY woman on earth is as in-shape as the women on this forum), or given a compliment to, I went out yesterday and punched like 4,713 women and said "I take it back."
We all good now?
Ok, so all I could think of from this was about my husband when we first started dating. He would tell you that when I get annoyed I tend to, ahem, *communicate* with my fists. It took forever for me to convince him that he really was allowed to hit me back because of course his mom had always told him to never hit a woman. Now I agree entirely that you should never hit someone in anger (as much as I might want to sometimes), or use physical superiority to dominate someone weaker than you, but if I'm joking around and punch him in the arm, I really don't expect him to just sit their and let me!
Yeah but if he punches you in the face, it would probably be a lot worse than if you punched him. Obviously, that would be a horrible thing for you to do as well. You think Rhianna could have done to Chris Brown's stupid face what he did to hers? If she had a baseball bat, maybe.
Hence my comment on not punching in anger and not using superior physical strength for domination. That's never ok, in any situation. I'm actually bigger than a lot of guys, and if I was in a relationship with a guy that was smaller than me and used my larger size to hit him or antagonize him in some way, that shouldn't be treated any differently.
True. 100%
And I should read all of your posts, but I'm too lazy, so I will just ask your opinion: would you be upset if a male person held a door for you or refrained from punching you simply because you are a female person? Also, do you have the same interactions/conversations/interactions with your female friends as your male friends?0 -
My man is like this, opens the doors, is polite.
I'm bringing my girls up to have manners. It is very rare though that people have manners, including the elderly! I find by far, they are the rudest.
I got thanked the other day for simply smiling!! There was a girl in the middle of the mall trying to sell something or a charity type thing, she called out to me, so I smiled & politely said "Sorry, I'm in a rush, I'm on my lunch break" (which was true by the way). It doesn't hurt or cost anything to be polite.0 -
I may possibly be a dinosaur and that is ok with me.
Eta: I really dig vintage styles and antiques, sooooooo.....0 -
How did this become about the workplace at all? I mean, I know feminism got mentioned, but that's kind of a departure...
Anyway, to make up for every woman I've ever called "ma'am," held the door open for, pulled the chair out for, helped with yard work, sprinklers, auto repairs, homework, heavy-lifting (because, you know, EVERY woman on earth is as in-shape as the women on this forum), or given a compliment to, I went out yesterday and punched like 4,713 women and said "I take it back."
We all good now?
Ok, so all I could think of from this was about my husband when we first started dating. He would tell you that when I get annoyed I tend to, ahem, *communicate* with my fists. It took forever for me to convince him that he really was allowed to hit me back because of course his mom had always told him to never hit a woman. Now I agree entirely that you should never hit someone in anger (as much as I might want to sometimes), or use physical superiority to dominate someone weaker than you, but if I'm joking around and punch him in the arm, I really don't expect him to just sit their and let me!
Yeah but if he punches you in the face, it would probably be a lot worse than if you punched him. Obviously, that would be a horrible thing for you to do as well. You think Rhianna could have done to Chris Brown's stupid face what he did to hers? If she had a baseball bat, maybe.
Hence my comment on not punching in anger and not using superior physical strength for domination. That's never ok, in any situation. I'm actually bigger than a lot of guys, and if I was in a relationship with a guy that was smaller than me and used my larger size to hit him or antagonize him in some way, that shouldn't be treated any differently.
True. 100%
And I should read all of your posts, but I'm too lazy, so I will just ask your opinion: would you be upset if a male person held a door for you or refrained from punching you simply because you are a female person? Also, do you have the same interactions/conversations/interactions with your female friends as your male friends?
LOL, been at that discussion for a while actually. I will assume if someone holds the door for me they are simply being polite and I will say thank you, but I find the concept of treating anyone differently, be it door holding or punching, ONLY because they are female thoroughly obnoxious.
As for my interactions with my friends, no, I can't identify any differences in how I act around female friends vs. male friends. Honestly, not sure how the interactions could be different as our social gatherings aren't segregated by gender.0 -
How did this become about the workplace at all? I mean, I know feminism got mentioned, but that's kind of a departure...
Anyway, to make up for every woman I've ever called "ma'am," held the door open for, pulled the chair out for, helped with yard work, sprinklers, auto repairs, homework, heavy-lifting (because, you know, EVERY woman on earth is as in-shape as the women on this forum), or given a compliment to, I went out yesterday and punched like 4,713 women and said "I take it back."
We all good now?
Ok, so all I could think of from this was about my husband when we first started dating. He would tell you that when I get annoyed I tend to, ahem, *communicate* with my fists. It took forever for me to convince him that he really was allowed to hit me back because of course his mom had always told him to never hit a woman. Now I agree entirely that you should never hit someone in anger (as much as I might want to sometimes), or use physical superiority to dominate someone weaker than you, but if I'm joking around and punch him in the arm, I really don't expect him to just sit their and let me!
Yeah but if he punches you in the face, it would probably be a lot worse than if you punched him. Obviously, that would be a horrible thing for you to do as well. You think Rhianna could have done to Chris Brown's stupid face what he did to hers? If she had a baseball bat, maybe.
Hence my comment on not punching in anger and not using superior physical strength for domination. That's never ok, in any situation. I'm actually bigger than a lot of guys, and if I was in a relationship with a guy that was smaller than me and used my larger size to hit him or antagonize him in some way, that shouldn't be treated any differently.
True. 100%
And I should read all of your posts, but I'm too lazy, so I will just ask your opinion: would you be upset if a male person held a door for you or refrained from punching you simply because you are a female person? Also, do you have the same interactions/conversations/interactions with your female friends as your male friends?
LOL, been at that discussion for a while actually. I will assume if someone holds the door for me they are simply being polite and I will say thank you, but I find the concept of treating anyone differently, be it door holding or punching, ONLY because they are female thoroughly obnoxious.
As for my interactions with my friends, no, I can't identify any differences in how I act around female friends vs. male friends. Honestly, not sure how the interactions could be different as our social gatherings aren't segregated by gender.
Cool. Thanks. He he. I find the obnoxiousness sweet. And maybe it's because I have sons that I see such glaring differences in these people who are supposed to be flesh of my flesh, but are so freaking weird! Cute and all that, but not like me. And honestly, I am already feeling sorry for their wives. (They are eleven and two, no wives in sight.). My sons DEFINITELY need to refrain from dishing out their crap to any woman they hope to land. Ha ha. Chivalry to me = don't be a *kitten*, dude.
Is that wrong? Proabaly. I'm wrong a lot.0 -
I kept thinking about this last night as I had posted on my account about the indifferent parenting skills of some people while at Chic-Fil-A. This is one definition of Chivalry :
"The combination of qualities expected of an ideal knight, especially courage, honor, courtesy, justice, and a readiness to help the weak"
I was taught these ideals (minus the Knightly stature and combat portion) and they flourished while I was in the Marines. But I was also taught to use manners, "please, thank you, yes ma'am, no ma'am, yes sir, no sir" etc... I was also taught you open the door for women, the disabled, and the elderly. I still open the door for my s.o. (car door too even when she is in a mood- different story).
I try to pass on this ethos and way of thinking to my son's. It has been a struggle as they see the rest of society being rude, crude and just down right mean.
I am curious, who among the men here are trying to be Chivalrous and use their manners?
It's the word "weak" that makes me want to say "No, thanks." I appreciate someone taking a moment to hold open a door and using their manners (which everyone should), but if you are doing it because of some outdated notion that women are the weaker sex...you should re-examine your motives. How about you be polite just because being polite is the right thing to do. I swear I will be equally polite, but I don't think that us women have the equipment to qualify to be "chivalrous."0 -
How did this become about the workplace at all? I mean, I know feminism got mentioned, but that's kind of a departure...
Anyway, to make up for every woman I've ever called "ma'am," held the door open for, pulled the chair out for, helped with yard work, sprinklers, auto repairs, homework, heavy-lifting (because, you know, EVERY woman on earth is as in-shape as the women on this forum), or given a compliment to, I went out yesterday and punched like 4,713 women and said "I take it back."
We all good now?
Ok, so all I could think of from this was about my husband when we first started dating. He would tell you that when I get annoyed I tend to, ahem, *communicate* with my fists. It took forever for me to convince him that he really was allowed to hit me back because of course his mom had always told him to never hit a woman. Now I agree entirely that you should never hit someone in anger (as much as I might want to sometimes), or use physical superiority to dominate someone weaker than you, but if I'm joking around and punch him in the arm, I really don't expect him to just sit their and let me!
Yeah but if he punches you in the face, it would probably be a lot worse than if you punched him. Obviously, that would be a horrible thing for you to do as well. You think Rhianna could have done to Chris Brown's stupid face what he did to hers? If she had a baseball bat, maybe.
Hence my comment on not punching in anger and not using superior physical strength for domination. That's never ok, in any situation. I'm actually bigger than a lot of guys, and if I was in a relationship with a guy that was smaller than me and used my larger size to hit him or antagonize him in some way, that shouldn't be treated any differently.
True. 100%
And I should read all of your posts, but I'm too lazy, so I will just ask your opinion: would you be upset if a male person held a door for you or refrained from punching you simply because you are a female person? Also, do you have the same interactions/conversations/interactions with your female friends as your male friends?
LOL, been at that discussion for a while actually. I will assume if someone holds the door for me they are simply being polite and I will say thank you, but I find the concept of treating anyone differently, be it door holding or punching, ONLY because they are female thoroughly obnoxious.
As for my interactions with my friends, no, I can't identify any differences in how I act around female friends vs. male friends. Honestly, not sure how the interactions could be different as our social gatherings aren't segregated by gender.
Cool. Thanks. He he. I find the obnoxiousness sweet. And maybe it's because I have sons that I see such glaring differences in these people who are supposed to be flesh of my flesh, but are so freaking weird! Cute and all that, but not like me. And honestly, I am already feeling sorry for their wives. (They are eleven and two, no wives in sight.). My sons DEFINITELY need to refrain from dishing out their crap to any woman they hope to land. Ha ha. Chivalry to me = don't be a *kitten*, dude.
Is that wrong? Proabaly. I'm wrong a lot.
I don't think it's wrong at all. People have different preferences and I'm perfectly ok with that. I know plenty of women who love the more traditional romantic gestures. I personally don't, but that's an issue of personal preferences that can be handled between individuals. The thing for me is, in the public context I personally feel that things like common courtesy should be gender neutral, because when dealing with society at large, I think equal treatment in *all* things should be the standard.
Of course, the problem with things like holding the door for someone is that you can never really know what a person's motivation for the behavior is. So yea, I'll assume that if a man holds the door for me, it's a simple matter of common courtesy, but I'll take the opportunity to question people on a forum like this about their motivations and ask why they might feel that such behavior should specifically be directed towards women as opposed to people in general.0 -
I am teaching my sons this. And yes they do use "Yes Sir, Yes Ma'am, No Sir and No Ma'am" and I do not care if that is a "dated" term or not. It is the the PROPER terminology and sign of respect given to men and women.
At my daughter's middle school graduation her principal made this comment "at our school we use yes sir and yes ma'am, if it's good enough for our military members it is good enough for us".
It is still a cultural expectation, not a requirement for courtesy everywhere.
Yes sir and yes ma'am would not be considered polite in Australia, they would be considered OTT and ridiculous.
People say please and thank you, but not the sir, ma'am part - nobody uses that here in general conversation. Doesnt mean they are not polite, just that it isn't the norm here.
Likewise someone upthread mentioned looking people in the eye when talking to them - some indigenous cultures in Australia find looking people in the eye rude and some indigenous people find this quite confronting when other people do it.
I don't like the word chivalry - it has paternalistic and patronizing overtones to me.
Courtesy, yes - but that applies to both genders. holding door open for the person coming behind you, regardless of their gender helping anyone with heavy loads etc.
I would ask a young strong man at work to help me with something heavy - I don't see this as a double standard - if he is obviously stronger than me. Like I would ask someone taller than me to get something from a high shelf - not because he is a man but because I am short.
Chivalry is getting cookies for basic courtesy.
Could you please explain what you mean by this sentence?
Is ' getting cookies' a figure of speech, if so, I am not familiar with it .0 -
This question is only for the chivalrous men who can't walk through a door held open by a woman-why? (I know plenty of men who can.)
I don't take offense to it, it's actually kind of cute to witness the ingrained belief system raising alarm and confusion about what to do. I do believe in holding the door for others, and sometimes there's almost a dance that has to be done if I get to the door first and hold it open for the man that got there a second later to go ahead of me. They just can't do it, so it so often ends with them circling behind the door I'm already holding open for them to hold it open for me instead in a non-threatening way. :laugh:
(I don't think it means they are sexist jerks, I think they are conditioned to the belief that men hold doors for women, not the other way around. But I am curious about the thought process that actually happens.)0 -
Confession: I didn't read all the replies so this has probably been covered.
Can someone tell me why I need special help opening a door just because I'm a woman?
The whole 'woman" part of chivalry should be dead. It's 2014, not 1414.
Who says I'm "helping" you? I hold the door open for men and women because it's courteous. If you feel less empowered or something because someone is being nice to you, you're doing it wrong.
This is exactly my point.
The post that started this thread saidI was also taught you open the door for women, the disabled, and the elderly.
The OP makes it seem like women are some kind of protected class who haven't quite mastered the art of opening doors. Open doors for men AND women or don't open them at all.0 -
So, it's okay if I treat Pat differently than Chris because one of them is - or identifies as - female? Is it okay if I treat Pat differently than Chris because one of them is of Pacific Islander descent? If not, what's the distinction, and what inequalities are, in your opinion, acceptable?
My college Gender Studies classes consistently held that treating you differently because of your gender is the very essence of sexism. Could you clarify why treating different sexes differently is not, in fact, sexism?LOL. I knew this would turn into some huge deal.
It is not sexist for a guy to treat me like a lady because I am ....wait for it....a lady ...
(Ok, so maybe a lady with a sailor's mouth who can burp really loudly, but whatever.)
(And by a "treat me like a lady" I mean be a little more polite to me than if I was some dude.....don't scratch your balls in front of me and I won't burp really loudly in front of you).
ETA---my husband gets the burps. Sorry, honey.
Well perhaps it is sexism to a degree if by that collegiate black and white definition. So then, I suppose in my personal opinion a small degree of sexism isn't a horrible thing. I do not have the same relationships with men as I do with other women. I just don't. It's not because I view one gender as inferior, but we are to some degree different. For real. We all are worthy humans with feelings, but just as our bodies are different, so are our minds. So if a man, out of "chivalry" treats me with a little more of a gentleness than he would a guy friend, I would not be at all offended by that.
The alternative is that on a bad/angry/frustrated day (we all have them) a man who is unchivalrous would theoretically engage with a woman in the same way he would another man. And call me crazy, but I think the world is a more pleasant place when men don't behave agressively toward women. (You know, unless we want them to.)
What about real cultural differences?
If I offer you vodka, it's probably because I just don't want to drink alone.
If my Russian husband offers you vodka, refusing is a gauche rejection of hospitality and friendship.
The same "no thanks" means something very different depending on your audience.0 -
I am an equal opportunity door holder regardless of a person's "type". It's just the right thing to do. Please and thank you go a long way too.0
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My college Gender Studies classes consistently held that treating you differently because of your gender is the very essence of sexism. Could you clarify why treating different sexes differently is not, in fact, sexism?LOL. I knew this would turn into some huge deal.
It is not sexist for a guy to treat me like a lady because I am ....wait for it....a lady ...
(Ok, so maybe a lady with a sailor's mouth who can burp really loudly, but whatever.)
(And by a "treat me like a lady" I mean be a little more polite to me than if I was some dude.....don't scratch your balls in front of me and I won't burp really loudly in front of you).
ETA---my husband gets the burps. Sorry, honey.
Yes, yes. Men and women are exactly the same, and should always be treated, and expected to perform, exactly the same. No biological differences at all, it's society man, society. No need to study actual people, instead we'll create an ideology and make the world fit it. Even when it doesn't.0 -
Men and women can interact with each other in certain ways, it's not sexism, it's just something people enjoy. I am a small and feminine women, and when I go into a lesbian bar, I am treated in a feminine role there as well. It's an enjoyable aspect of courtship. Some people are androgynous, and some people enjoy certain gender roles. We can be fluid and weave in and out of different roles, but when it comes down to it I am the one that enjoys feeling feminine. And the people that take a sexual interest in me are people that want to spend time with someone that is very feminine, and it strengthens their own feelings of masculinity (I mean that in the most positive sense). I understand there are different ways of defining femininity, but there are certain things (ways of moving and dressing) that are clearly considered feminine. I'm all for equality and choices. In some parts of the world there is not equality and it has a negative impact on the direction of life for both genders. Where I live, there is equality for the genders, and we have choices. Gender roles can be an aspect of our sexual expression that we can enjoy in various ways whether we enjoy gender bending or being feminine or masculine. I am feminine, but I still like to be strong and dominant in some ways, those things are not non-feminine. Sometimes women and men like to do things to care for one another. We have our different ways of showing warmth and nurturing. Some of us are more sexual than others. I like to feel that there is sensuality and sexuality present in my life in various ways, not just the intimacy that happens in the bedroom.0
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My college Gender Studies classes consistently held that treating you differently because of your gender is the very essence of sexism. Could you clarify why treating different sexes differently is not, in fact, sexism?LOL. I knew this would turn into some huge deal.
It is not sexist for a guy to treat me like a lady because I am ....wait for it....a lady ...
(Ok, so maybe a lady with a sailor's mouth who can burp really loudly, but whatever.)
(And by a "treat me like a lady" I mean be a little more polite to me than if I was some dude.....don't scratch your balls in front of me and I won't burp really loudly in front of you).
ETA---my husband gets the burps. Sorry, honey.
Yes, yes. Men and women are exactly the same, and should always be treated, and expected to perform, exactly the same. No biological differences at all, it's society man, society. No need to study actual people, instead we'll create an ideology and make the world fit it. Even when it doesn't.
You could treat people based on their needs rather than making assumptions about them based on gender.0 -
My college Gender Studies classes consistently held that treating you differently because of your gender is the very essence of sexism. Could you clarify why treating different sexes differently is not, in fact, sexism?LOL. I knew this would turn into some huge deal.
It is not sexist for a guy to treat me like a lady because I am ....wait for it....a lady ...
(Ok, so maybe a lady with a sailor's mouth who can burp really loudly, but whatever.)
(And by a "treat me like a lady" I mean be a little more polite to me than if I was some dude.....don't scratch your balls in front of me and I won't burp really loudly in front of you).
ETA---my husband gets the burps. Sorry, honey.
Yes, yes. Men and women are exactly the same, and should always be treated, and expected to perform, exactly the same. No biological differences at all, it's society man, society. No need to study actual people, instead we'll create an ideology and make the world fit it. Even when it doesn't.
You could treat people based on their needs rather than making assumptions about them based on gender.
So, he should take a survey before he opens the door for you?0 -
My college Gender Studies classes consistently held that treating you differently because of your gender is the very essence of sexism. Could you clarify why treating different sexes differently is not, in fact, sexism?LOL. I knew this would turn into some huge deal.
It is not sexist for a guy to treat me like a lady because I am ....wait for it....a lady ...
(Ok, so maybe a lady with a sailor's mouth who can burp really loudly, but whatever.)
(And by a "treat me like a lady" I mean be a little more polite to me than if I was some dude.....don't scratch your balls in front of me and I won't burp really loudly in front of you).
ETA---my husband gets the burps. Sorry, honey.
Yes, yes. Men and women are exactly the same, and should always be treated, and expected to perform, exactly the same. No biological differences at all, it's society man, society. No need to study actual people, instead we'll create an ideology and make the world fit it. Even when it doesn't.
You could treat people based on their needs rather than making assumptions about them based on gender.
So, he should take a survey before he opens the door for you?
You clearly live in the real world. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure she's printing survey forms.0 -
My college Gender Studies classes consistently held that treating you differently because of your gender is the very essence of sexism. Could you clarify why treating different sexes differently is not, in fact, sexism?LOL. I knew this would turn into some huge deal.
It is not sexist for a guy to treat me like a lady because I am ....wait for it....a lady ...
(Ok, so maybe a lady with a sailor's mouth who can burp really loudly, but whatever.)
(And by a "treat me like a lady" I mean be a little more polite to me than if I was some dude.....don't scratch your balls in front of me and I won't burp really loudly in front of you).
ETA---my husband gets the burps. Sorry, honey.
Yes, yes. Men and women are exactly the same, and should always be treated, and expected to perform, exactly the same. No biological differences at all, it's society man, society. No need to study actual people, instead we'll create an ideology and make the world fit it. Even when it doesn't.
You could treat people based on their needs rather than making assumptions about them based on gender.
So, he should take a survey before he opens the door for you?
You clearly live in the real world. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure she's printing survey forms.
Or he could just hold the door open for anyone of any gender coming in behind him and open the door for anyone of any gender who looks like they might need a hand - eg a person in a wheelchair or with their hands full or with a pram etc.
IME this works pretty well in the real world 0
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