Chivalry is dead?

Nah, I'm just playin, but seriously....



Nah, just playin again, but seriously...

*gigglesnort*

I blame my lawyer parents, I can't resist a good debate....

Damn lawyers!

By third grade my response to "what do you want to be when you grow up" was NOT A LAWYER. This was made especially amusing by the fact that both of my parents were in law school at the time so almost every person asking me this question was either a law professor or a law student. Unfortunately, their tendency to make me defend my stance when I disagreed with them about something *might* have had a lasting effect....

I was raised to be chivalrous. My generation seems to think that when a guy who was raised like myself is being themselves, that they are trying to hit on them or get in their pants by being chivalrous. Messed up..... Sick of it.

+1

There are plenty of people out there who don't seem to get social cues. I avoid them like the plague IRL but enjoy them on MFP. That particular version, the woman who thinks men are hitting on her anytime men are polite, is the source of endless personal amusement. Then again, I'm sure the male version, the guy who can't take a hint, is equally entertaining to the ladies. My wife is regularly sharing her gym experiences with me, and I have to admit that her stories are better than mine.

I was raised to be chivalrous. My generation seems to think that when a guy who was raised like myself is being themselves, that they are trying to hit on them or get in their pants by being chivalrous. Messed up..... Sick of it.

+1

There are plenty of people out there who don't seem to get social cues. I avoid them like the plague IRL but enjoy them on MFP. That particular version, the woman who thinks men are hitting on her anytime men are polite, is the source of endless personal amusement. Then again, I'm sure the male version, the guy who can't take a hint, is equally entertaining to the ladies. My wife is regularly sharing her gym experiences with me, and I have to admit that her stories are better than mine.

I never assume I'm getting hit on, then again, I've been told repeatedly by my husband that I'm absolutely oblivious to the getting hit on social cues that I do encounter. So I'm oblivious to social cues, but generally in the other direction...

You can thank society, FB, and parents who raise their kids in front of the TV... Good manners are installed at a young age, If you don't capture them when they are young, you have an up hill battle. Good luck. FYI Kindness goes a long ways and GOD takes care of UGLY.

I love some good manners in a man, but sometimes it seems it depends upon how you look!!! I was once dressed up very nicely (makeup, heels, fitted skirt etc) and dropped a few bits of shopping from my bag (the stuff rolled everywhere!) and 3 men stopped to help me pick things up. less than a few weeks later when I dropped yet more things, a man practically stood on my stuff walking past and nobody helped. Was makeup free, hair in scruffy ponytail and wearing baggy trousers, trainers and fitted tee. A correlation perhaps?!

I love some good manners in a man, but sometimes it seems it depends upon how you look!!! I was once dressed up very nicely (makeup, heels, fitted skirt etc) and dropped a few bits of shopping from my bag (the stuff rolled everywhere!) and 3 men stopped to help me pick things up. less than a few weeks later when I dropped yet more things, a man practically stood on my stuff walking past and nobody helped. Was makeup free, hair in scruffy ponytail and wearing baggy trousers, trainers and fitted tee. A correlation perhaps?!

I am sure how you look makes a difference to some people whether you they will a lady out or not. It really depends on how you were brought up. If I see someone struggling with something, be it a man or woman, I will ask if they need my help. The problem that I have run into is some ladies will say that they don't need my help. and be rude about it. That in itself makes people not want to help other people.

I kept thinking about this last night as I had posted on my account about the indifferent parenting skills of some people while at Chic-Fil-A. This is one definition of Chivalry :

"The combination of qualities expected of an ideal knight, especially courage, honor, courtesy, justice, and a readiness to help the weak"

I was taught these ideals (minus the Knightly stature and combat portion) and they flourished while I was in the Marines. But I was also taught to use manners, "please, thank you, yes ma'am, no ma'am, yes sir, no sir" etc... I was also taught you open the door for women, the disabled, and the elderly. I still open the door for my s.o. (car door too even when she is in a mood- different story).

I try to pass on this ethos and way of thinking to my son's. It has been a struggle as they see the rest of society being rude, crude and just down right mean.
I am curious, who among the men here are trying to be Chivalrous and use their manners?

i hope there's more like you....

I'm not a man, but I was raised to say thank you and please, hold doors open, give up my seat for the elderly etc and I really appreciate it when other people (men and women alike) are polite to me and others

It's a shame not many people seem to value chivalry / general courtesy these days. Just this morning I spilled my coffee because the guy in front of me on the train looked at me, saw that my hands were full and proceeded to let the door slam in my face.

I'm not convinced it has much to do with age / generation though.. I'm 26 and the lovely man mentioned above was in his early fifties.

It's sad to see an everday act of kindness fade away.
I was in Manhattan last week opened the door for a woman and said good morning,
she stopped turned and asked me if I was from Texas :-)

I feel that the human touch has become less important than automated availability and how smart a device or call service is.

It isn't dead, it is just endangered. I still very much enjoy being treated like a lady. But to want be treated like a lady, one must act the part of a lady.

Political Correctness shot Chivalry in the face.

Everyone is a winner. No one feels the need for self improvement. Kids can't get punished for their actions. If you tell your daughter "that a girl" you're oppressing her. If you let a woman go first it's because you're trying to hit on her. If you truly act chivalrous and try to raise your kids right, you'll either be ostracized or visited by social services. I do the best I can to be a gentleman, but operate within the confines that won't set off the PC police.

Those are my two cents.

Sadly, you are correct. I would take chivalry over pc any day.

IMHO, good manners are universal and should be attributed to everybody and returned in equal measure.

Special treatment shouldn't be portioned out simply because of gender or any other factor in my book. Just sayin.

Right.

People should be kind/polite/not @sshats because it is the right thing to do.

I felt she gave me the best advice ever when she said don't forget to teach Chris the important parts about dating a girl. That when he takes her out, that should be viewed as a gift from her parents. They are allowing him to take out what they hold dearest to them. He should respect that and treat her as precious as they view her and she is his ultimate responsibility and he should treat her with the utmost respect.

I am all for respecting my fellow humans. But a girl is not the property of her parents. She is not a "gift" to be given away to the most chivalrous bidder. Neither is a boy, by the way. Boy or girl or whatever, everyone gets to decide for him/herself whether to "go out" with someone else.

IMHO, good manners are universal and should be attributed to everybody and returned in equal measure.

Special treatment shouldn't be portioned out simply because of gender or any other factor in my book. Just sayin.

Right.

People should be kind/polite/not @sshats because it is the right thing to do.

Yup. I ain't no lady, and I don't wanna be either. I just want to be a kind and compassionate human being who treats all other humans as I want to be treated. If you hold the door open for me, great, thanks! If you don't, no biggie. I'll try to do the same for you.

But please don't act like my body is public property (by touching me without asking), don't act like my ladyparts are the most important part of that body (hello, brain!), don't act like the purpose of my existence is to look delicate and pretty ('cuz it isn't), don't pay me less for the same work performed by a similar male human, and don't try to pigeonhole me into "traditional" female roles (I won't fit).

Really wouldn’t know any other way to be. Open doors (strangely some of today’s women prefer one doesn’t do this), pull out chairs, stand when a lady enters (even if she doesn’t realize she is), stop dead in my tracks when a women approaches what will become a “crossing of paths” to allow her to go first (boy this gets some peculiar stares), wait in an elevator for the ladies to exit (or outside for them to enter)…

This of course is the tip of a very large iceberg! Removing one’s hat when entering a building and certainly not wearing one at a table (eating or otherwise). Yes Sir, No Sir (that’s what you had better say when I was growing up (still is the best defense when stopped by the friendly constabulary).

To this day it is best if a man do not (in my presence) take upon himself to strike a woman (regardless of reason) whomever she may be (wife, girlfriend, “working” girl…).

I make every effort to not allow any child (of which I am aware) go without necessities (food, clothing, shelter…). Protect the weak from the abuses of the strong! Council any in need (desiring such council).

Continually with vigilance, honor, integrity and unshakable resolve be a friend to humankind!

Yes, chivalry is not dead though I suspect it is in a terminal state of devolvement.

Your first 2 paragraphs describe social etiquette or social or cultural customs - these are never static forever and are always different in different times and places - things like not wearing a hat in certain circumstances.

The second part of your post - from "to this day" - describes non tangible qualities like protecting the weak, acting with integrity - these are values probably desired in all cultures and times and places.
Very different to specific customs - 2 quite separate things.

If by "chivalry" one means general courtesy, acting with integrity, providing for children, not hitting persons weaker than you (regardless of gender) - then, yes, I'm sure we all agree such are good qualities.

If one means social customs like opening doors, pulling out chairs, standing when a lady enters a room - those are social customs and not ones everyone is in agreement with, since not everyone lives in the same place or culture.
I personally do not expect or wish a man to stand when I enter the room - that is just silly IMO and serves no purpose. It is also not a custom in the place, culture and times in which I live.

Thank you so much for your critique of “my” interpretation of what is meant by “Chivalry” . Of course, I am merely a lowly uneducated sort without the advantage of such scholarly advantages as many others. In my humble attempt to convey what it is and means (and well always has) to me; clearly I have erred from that which is the understanding of paperpudding.

I have little excuse as “my” understanding only slightly mirrors that readily found online (certainly not that online sources are an end all):

chiv•al•ry ˈSHivəlrē/
noun: chivalry
1. the medieval knightly system with its religious, moral, and social code.
o historical
knights, noblemen, and horsemen collectively.
"I fought against the cream of French chivalry"
o the combination of qualities expected of an ideal knight, especially courage, honor, courtesy, justice, and a readiness to help the weak.
o courteous behavior, especially that of a man toward women.

Hmmm… “…social etiquette or social or cultural customs…” you say.

Well one might imagine “etiquette” finding its origins in a type of “courteous behavior” then too “moral, and social code” may likewise be found to example “social or cultural customs”.

As regards “…tangible qualities…” it is the matter of a “combination” of such “qualities” (“…especially courage, honor, courtesy, justice, and a readiness to help the weak.”) that, by definition,is descriptive of chivalry.

Regarding one woman’s “opinion” of what is “silly” and what is or is not serving a purpose is obviously just that… an opinion.

Regarding “today’s” custom relative to "...place, culture and times..." in which “we” live; well standing for a lady is a matter of RESPECT for a lady. Removing a hat likewise is a matter of RESPECT.

Of course, as regards serving a “purpose” - irrespective of those without due and proper etiquette to indulge the legitimate “usage” of terms and/or words – such notions as integrity, honor and respect "may" very well be lost.

The purpose – even in the use of the term “chivalry” – serves to maintain (down through the ages) honorable and worthwhile “norms”. Worthwhile in that the “values” and “ways’ of such norms PRESERVE that which man has found to be of enduring VALUE… thus therein lies the purpose.

I should hope I may have helped to shed a modicum of light upon my uneducated meandering of thought that sought only to respond to the question at hand concerning chivalry.

I do, however, appreciate your (@paperpudding) insight into the error of my thinking regarding the complex understanding of chivalry.