Relatively light people trying to get leaner

Hi, like a few other people on this VERY extensive thread, I'm an endurance runner. I'm just starting to train for my first full marathon. I really don't want to accept that I can't try and lose weight while marathon training. I've been on here for about 6 weeks, haven't lost a thing, in fact I think I've put on a few kilos instead. Great.

I'm not suggesting you can't lose while training for endurance racing. I'm stating that if you try both at the same time, there's going to be a watering down effect. We've so much capacity to deal with stress and when we're dieting, that capacity is diminished.

But this isn't global. Say a woman has 50 lbs to lose and she wants to compete in an endurance race. Well in her case, losing weight will improve her performance.

But if you're relatively small already, chances are good that you can run into problems.

And here's the real moral of the story. Pay attention to energy availability. What we'll see more often than not is someone in your shoes will pick a calorie intake without factoring in the fact that they're doing more than the average exerciser. They're not training for fat loss. They're logging lots of volume to train for their event. And that's fine if they don't mind the potential hit to performance that a calorie deficit can have. But they still need to tailor their calories to the high workload. Where 10-12 calories per pound may be a good deficit for the typical fat loss person, the marathoner might want to stick with 12-14 cal/lb (pulling those numbers out of my *kitten*).

The point being, you can't drive energy availability into the ground and expect a lot of good to come of it.

It's interesting what you say about stresses on the body. At the moment I'm seeing a physio regularly about my glutes not firing properly,

Common among people in your category. Tight hip flexors lead to something known as reciprocal inhibition. Namely, muscle group opposite the overactive or tight muscle will become weakened. Which is why with tight flexors you get weakness in the glutes. This can, in turn, cause hamstring and low back issues as they takeover the extension duties for the weakened glutes.

Add to that, three weeks ago my city was rocked by a massive earthquake, meaning life has kind of been turned upside down dramatically. It means also, that my gym, although hardly affected, is in a no-go zone, possibly for up to 8 months, so I don't have access to weights any more. Any suggestions on what I should do here? I know I need to be keeping up some strength training.

That depends if you've any sort of equipment at home.

I'd really appreciate any advice.
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Stroutman, just letting you know how I'm getting on from all the advice I've taken from the thread and received via the mails...

I could tell from my clothes that I was doing ok... but when I saw a thread on the forum recently where a girl had posted that she had lost 5lb, but when her PT did her body stats she lost it all from lean mass and her BF% was up my heart sank...

So today I had my body composition re-checked after doing it 6 weeks ago... and the good news is...

2.4% body fat lost
ALL my weight loss (of about 7lb) was from body fat
ZERO loss of lean mass
in fact despite eating at a calorie deficit I managed to gain a pound of muscle

:bigsmile:

Thank you Stroutman. :drinker:

VERY happy for you! Be proud.

And spread the good word. Too many people are blindly chasing numbers on the scale without paying attention to the costs of the losses they're realizing.

Hi Steve.

I have a question for you, and I am posting it here since I thought others may be interested too.

I have been lifting heavy weights for about 5 weeks now. I am definetly noticing improvements, such as being able to lift heavier weights and changes to how my clothes are fitting me. However, there are some exercises that I know I can lift heavier weights on. For example, on the leg press I am now up to 200 pounds. I've been able to press 200 lbs 10x for 5 sets for about 4 sessions over two weeks. I'm guessing that now it is time to increase the weight, and I'm tempted to jump up to 250. My aim is to be doing 5 sets of 5-6 reps. Is this too much of a jump? I'm feeling very confident in my form on this one, but I don't want to screw that up by increasing the weight too dramatically.

As a general rule of thumb with my clients, I like to keep a weight constant until they're able to complete every goal rep for every goal set of a workout for 2 straight sessions. And when that happens, I'll generally increase the weight by 5-10 lbs. Small exercises will be 5lb jumps while larger exercises will be 10 lb jumps.

But that's assuming the rep range is staying the same.

In this particular case you're obviously ready for an increase since you've been completing all sets and reps for 4 sessions now. However, you're also talking about decreasing the rep range you're training in. Lower reps per set means more weight can be used, logically. Just as higher reps mean you have to drop the weight used. That said, it's pretty hard to tell what would be the right jump in this case.

You could estimate it based on an estimated 1 rep max, but that's silly in my opinion.

What I would do is start with a 20 lb increase on the first set. If that's very easy, jump another 10 and keep doing this for each set until you find that sweet spot. Then, next session, start at that sweet spot.

The sweet spot, by the way, is a weight that allows you to complete all reps without failing. And failure means either true failure where you're unable to complete your final rep or technical failure which is a point where you can still lift the weight but form has deteriorated. We don't want failure. So the sweet spot is where you're able to complete the goal reps while leaving 1-2 good reps left in the tank.

Also, i was wondering about muscle soreness after a workout. Sometimes I am sore, others times not. Is it true that if I am not sore then I didn't work out as hard? Or perhaps I just did a better job of stretching that day?

To keep it short - muscle soreness is not an indicator of workout efficacy. Don't worry about it.

What are your current stats? I'm 5'3" and about 120lbs (fluctuates). Supposedly 15% body fat by calipers but probably closer to 20. Resting heart rate 55. What else is included in stats,lol?

I was doing 1200 (cardio day) - 1700 (weight training day) zig zags, but fell off of counting recently. Up until a week ago was doing this with leangains 16hr intermittent fasting, but wasn't always getting my calories in

How are you strength training, specifically? I got a routine from a YouTube trainer :blushing: . For instance it's

Cable chest press 8-10 (I'm up to 45# now)
Alternating dumbbell chest press on stability ball 12-15 (at15#)

To controlled failure 90 sec break (usually jumprope), then repeat x3-4 sets

Vertical cable pull downs 8-10 (I'm up to 65#)
Supermans on stability ball 12-15

To controlled failure, 90 sec break, 3-4 sets

Squats with dumbbell 8-10 (i'm up to 35#)
Single leg bench bridge (12-15 each side)

90 sec break, 3-4 sets

Is your circuit training your strength training?
It was, or p90x or no more trouble zones. Now I do the above or a similar routine 3x/week

What do your cardio sessions consist of?
Intervals on the elliptical 2min at hr 150s (75% mhr) 2 min at hr 170s (85-90% mhr) x 30minutes, or spinning avg hr 160s x30-60 min, or insanity (intervals 45-60min, hr to 180s, the rest, repeat), or occasionally I'll do varying inclines on the treadmill, avg hr 140s for something light.

Yeah, I realized it's been a while shortly after writing my post to you. I took a dieting break (unintentionally!) around the Xmas holidays. i cant remember my last training break more than 2 days. did take 4 days off from dieting and 2 days off from training, felt good doing strength training NOT followed by cardio the day before yesterday and did insanity yesterday without issues.

So maybe i've been doing too much since my body loved that short break. It's hard to scale back cause I'm 2 lbs away from my goal weight and just want to lose another inch in my waist and hips. I feel like I'm so close and also don't want to lose strength or gain fat resting too long. What do you recommend?

Thanks

My recommendation would be to take a break. As you near the genetic limits of leanness, which you are, it's so important to manage the recovery side of the equation. It actually takes priority. Our bodies resist leanness for the most part, so when we're at this stage, you really have to work "with" your body opposed to "against" it. Most think they need to do things "harder" at this stage (less calories, more intense training, longer sessions, etc) when, in reality, what's called for is smarter, not harder, training.

At the very least, I'd recommend the following:

1. Complete diet breaks every 4 -6 weeks or so where calories are brought up to maintenance. During this time, it'd be a good idea to deload your strength training as well and focus more on recovery training such as myofascial release, stretching, low intensity cardio, etc.

2. Within the above, it might be wise to take some cyclical approach with carbs. I see you were following Martin's IF protocol which works great for some. Others don't seem to fare well on it. If you're in this latter camp, you need to be flexible. You may consider more evenly distributed meal frequencies while keeping carbs low throughout much of the day except for around training. You may also consider refeeds (short periods, maybe 5 hours or so, of carbohydrate overfeeding) 1 to 2 times per week.

3. I'd shoot for 3 sessions of strength training per week where you're hitting all the major movements. But I wouldn't be working to failure. At all. Something as simple as:

Day 1: Heavy (4-6 reps, 2-4 sets)
Squat
Row
Bench

Day 2: Light (12-15 reps, 2-3 sets)
Rear Foot Elevated Split Squats
Standing Overhead Press
Pulldowns

Day 3: Medium (8-12 reps, 2-3 sets)
Deadlift
Pullup or assisted pullup
Incline Bench Press

Obviously you can tack on some accessory stuff such as direct core work and arm fluff if you want, but this would be enough to maintain what you have. If you like supersets so there's not a lot of sitting around, superset each movement with some sort of mobility or tissue quality exercise. And the exercises aren't set in stone either... feel free to insert what you prefer, as long as similar movement patterns are utilized.

Remember, don't train to failure. Maybe technical failure... where you're unable to perform any more reps with perfect, and I mean PERFECT form. I like to tell people to leave 1-2 reps in the tank... meaning the last rep of each set should feel like you could do another 1 or 2.

Also remember that when you go into a diet break, bump down your intensity in the strength training department for that same week.

On the cardio side of things, I'd regulate intensity quite a bit. Remember, you only have so much recovery ability to go around which is dampened even more when you're lean trying to get leaner and you're in a deficit. I'd keep most of your cardio in the moderate range... say 75% if MHR for 20-40 minutes.

It's hard to get into things more specifically than this. But I'd be happy to continue the exchange if you have more questions. Bottom line is I think you're not allowing your body to recover enough.

Stroutman81 -

This thread is so interesting - although, I myself am in the 50+ lbs to lose category which several times you mention that a lot of this advice does not apply to. Do you have a thread dedicated to the 50+ to lose group? If not, would you care to start one?

And I haven't read this ENTIRE thread, but I am off to do that now - perhaps there is some advice for me that I have missed.

I am especially interested in the effects/benefits of cardio and weight lifting (low weight/high rep vs high weight/low rep) plus details on what the composition of my diet should be.

I don't have a thread specifically for heavier folks who've more fat to lose. It's certainly a good idea. I'd be afraid that I couldn't keep up with it though. I haven't been getting on here as much. But I'll say this... much of what I discuss in this thread applies to most people interested in fat loss. If anything though, people with more fat to lose don't have to be as careful as their leaner counterparts. They aren't going to run into metabolic slowdown as easily, they aren't going to lose lots of muscle, they have much more "wiggle room" in the calorie department since they have much higher maintenance intakes, etc, etc.

I'd suggest this. Read my interview with Lyle McDonald. We speak a lot about this sort of stuff. From there, if you've questions, I am ALL ears. And I will certainly think about starting a thread as you suggested.

Here is the interview:

http://www.body-improvements.com/Articles/Interviews/LyleInterview.html