consult with a dietician - key lessons learne

Options
123578

Replies

  • dublvision2
    Options
    bump
  • dragonflies6
    dragonflies6 Posts: 52 Member
    Options
    thank you for posting this....makes me understand what it is i should be doing.
  • pandafoo
    pandafoo Posts: 367 Member
    Options
    pastas are not bad! same thing with white rice! that's a very surprising thing that i learned today. that's a little teaser of what's coming up. :)

    but i wanted to first clarify what ryan had said about eating 75% of exercise calories back. he suggested 75% because he saw how meticulous i'm being on mfp with tracking food and exercise. normally he would recommend eating 50% back (and my trainer does this too), as people tend to overestimate calories burned and underestimate calories eaten. whatever percentage you choose to eat back, the main concept behind what ryan said is that it's important to do so. the rationale is that you do not want your daily deficit to be too low so that your net calories are below BMR. thanks to banks and taso for addressing the questions that some of you had about BMR and maintenance calories! :) as for the window of opportunity, this may be controversial, but regardless of whether you believe this window is 45 minutes or 4 hours long or nonexistent, i think many of us would agree it makes sense to refuel muscles after an intense workout. similarly, many would agree that it's important to eat breakfast and a pre-workout snack.

    anyway, now we're back to pasta! :) tonight's discussion with ryan is best summed up by QUALITY and QUANTITY of CARBS. i'm going to include key points from the handouts he gave me, and give sources along the way.

    1) FOOD AND DIGESTION
    -the 3 major macronutrients are carbs, protein, and fat. the preferred fuel is glucose. excess glucose can be stored for later use as glycogen, and if needed, fat.
    -carbs (not including fiber) is digested quickly compared to protein or fat. protein and fat delay food digestion and increase satiety
    -carbs (not incl. fiber) has greatest impact of elevating blood sugar and blood insulin levels. insulin is a hormone that promotes fat storage and prevents fat breakdown (Champe et al. "Lippincott's Illustrated Reviews: Biochemistry" 3rd ed, 2005)
    -rule: always combine protein or fat with any carb-based food to delay digestion and stabilize sugar and insulin levels

    2) FOOD AND METABOLISM
    -eating food increase metabolism. metabolism is increased to support digestion, a concept referred to as the thermic effect of food. (Mahan et al. "Krause's Food, Nutrition, and Diet Therapy" 11th ed. 2004). the food-associated increase in metabolism can be as much as 30% greater than the resting metabolism (Champe et al.)
    -large gaps between meals increases the production of an appetite stimulating hormone called ghrelin (Champe et al.)
    -the increase in metabolism varies on the type of meal consumed (carb-rich, protein-rich, or fat-rich). protein increases the metabolism the most, followed by carbs, then fat (Mahan et al.)
    -rule #1: eat smaller, more frequent meals (every 3-4 hrs) to increase metabolism and control levels of ghrelin
    -rule #2: incorporate protein, unless on protein restricted diet, as part of every meal to maximize increase in metabolism associated with thermic effect of food

    3) CARB-BASED FOODS
    -grains
    -fruit
    -starchy vegetables
    -sweets
    -milk and yogurt

    it's most important to watch out for carbs, since these raise insulin the most, compared to fat or protein. be more cautious when eating foods from these carb categories.

    4) GLYCEMIC INDEX and QUALITY OF CARBS
    -not all carbs are created equal. glycemic index (GI) is a food scale that describes the extent to which carbs or carb-based foods increase blood glucose levels. high GI foods are those 70 and higher, medium GI foods are 56-69, and low GI foods are 55 and lower (Brown. "Nutrition Through the Life Cycle 3rd ed., 2008)
    -high GI foods cause significant increases in blood sugar and insulin levels, because glucose is the most important trigger for insulin secretion (Champe et al)
    -rule: always select low GI foods from non-starchy vegetables, fruits, legumes, and nuts to stabilize insulin levels and promote fat burning

    i looked online, and a great resource to check the GI for foods is http://www.mendosa.com/gilists.htm. ryan provided me with a GI chart to review, and i was totally shocked to see that pastas are a low GI food! same thing with most fruits. i was also surprised to see that some wheat breads and wheat-based cereals are considered high GI foods. i asked him about simple vs. complex carbs - because i'd thought complex carbs like wheat bread and sweet potatoes were better to eat vs. fruit on its own or white rice. he explained that the nomenclature of simple vs complex is used to describe the molecular structure of foods. potatoes consist of long molecules strung together, but it's very easy to break down the molecular bonds (think of a paper circle chain whose links would be easily destroyed by scissors). so just because a food is called a complex carb doesn't mean that it's better for you. likewise, just because something is wheat-based doesn't automatically mean it's better - white rice's GI is lower than the GI of some wheat breads, and would be better at preventing a spike in sugar and insulin levels. however, wheat breads such as ezekiel bread or pumpernickel bread have a lower GI index than white rice, so it's better to choose those.

    [as an aside, speaking about wheat breads, ryan gave me another handout about this. if you want to choose one, use these guidelines: look at the ingredients label, and make sure the 1st ingredient is "whole wheat." if it says "wheat flour" do not select it. whole grains are better because they're an excellent source of insoluble fiber and promote good digestive health. also, look for a symbol on the food package that says "100% whole grain" (http://wholegrainscouncil.org/whole-grain-stamp). there's another symbol like this but it doesn't have the 100%. this means the food has at least 50% whole grain, but not 100% - an example is kashi bars which ryan showed me the label for]

    IMPLICATIONS of GI values? the takeaways for myself are:
    a) if you choose a carb, it's better to eat a low GI food rather than high GI food (except after a workout)
    b) but a low GI food, while better than a high GI food, will still be broken down faster than a protein or fat. notice how when you eat fruit, you feel hungry shortly afterwards? so regardless of whether a carb has a high or low GI, it's better to pair it with a healthy protein or fat, than to eat it on its own.
    c) some carbs may be nutritionally denser (e.g., wheat cereal over white rice), but it may not be better when it comes to stabilizing sugar and insulin levels (they will have higher GI). ideally, we should eat foods that are nutritionally dense and stabilize sugar/insulin levels. but sometimes you may decide that eating foods that are more nutritionally dense is more important than stabilizing sugar levels, and vice versa. it depends on what your goals are, and this requires a balance (this bullet is my own conclusion, and not something that ryan said)

    5) QUANTITY OF CARBS
    -however, what's far more important than quality of carbs is the quantity. although not all carbs increase blood sugar to the same extent, it has been determined that the TOTAL AMOUNT of carbs consumed has the greatest impact on increasing blood sugar response (Mahan et al.)
    -rule: portion control of carbs is the most important consideration when planning meals
    -one carb serving is 15 grams of carbs OR the serving size off of the food exchange list packet for carb-based foods
    -men should eat less than or equal to 4 carb servings per meal and 1-2 servings per snack
    -women should eat less than or equal to 3 carb servings per meal and 1-2 servings per snack
    -if you eat more carb servings than recommended, it increases the likelihood that the body will convert excess calories into fat (not a guarantee, but it is still worth noting)

    ryan showed me an exchange list, and it was surprising to see what 1 carb serving equates to. for example: -1/4 bagel
    -1/4 c. uncooked pasta
    -1/2 c. spaghetti sauce
    -1/24th of an angel food cake
    -3/4 c. cereal

    IMPLICATIONS that i took away?
    -too much of a good thing is bad, even if it is fruit
    -eat small meals frequently. sometimes it's tempting to think that if i barely eat anything throughout the day, i can gorge on a huge dinner... as long as the total calories consumed by day's end is less than calories expended, right? however, if the quantity of carbs digested during one particular meal or snack truly is the most important determinant of raising sugar and insulin levels, it would be better to space out my meals and snacks
    -become familiar with what a serving size of cereal, rice, etc. looks like, so that when i go out to restaurants, i can become better at eyeballing entrees and deciding what and how much to eat

    6) EATING PHILOSOPHY
    actually, the 1st thing that ryan shared with me was his eating philosophy, but i thought it'd be good to share it at the end as a summary.

    my approach to eating
    -I am not on a "DIET"
    -I eat to stabilize blood sugar and blood insulin

    how do I do that?
    -I stabilize blood sugar and blood insulin by eating smaller, more frequent meals every 3-4 hours, while focusing on the quality and quantity of carbs consumed at each meal

    i believe his philosophy makes a lot of sense, and whether you agree or disagree with it, i think it'd be helpful to think about what your eating philosophy will be. now i see food, especially carbs, in a very different light. i probably just need a bit more time to wrap my mind around the fact that pasta can be good for me! :)

    my next session with him will be next wednesday, so i'll keep you updated!
  • DavyRockhit
    DavyRockhit Posts: 168
    Options
    *-*
  • Angel1066
    Angel1066 Posts: 816 Member
    Options
    That for the info, very intresting
  • mmorganj
    mmorganj Posts: 5
    Options
    wow, thanks! that stuff about the post exercise gatorade/whey combo was very helpful, i'm never sure what to eat after a workout. i used to eat protein bars but i found they were just so high in calories and didn't help with the dehydration..
  • corpus_validum
    corpus_validum Posts: 292 Member
    Options
    Thanks for sharing all that info. I'm sure it's pretty laborious to take all those notes and then to type it here for MFP users.

    And though some may not agree with every single detail he touts, but hey, as long as the plan works for YOU, that's all that matters.
  • bmontgomery87
    bmontgomery87 Posts: 1,260 Member
    Options

    The main differences I see are:

    1. There is no emphasis on eating some significant portion of your exercise calories immediately after workout
    2. The extreme 45 minute window of opportunity is more like three hours
    3. While they say there are benefits to immediate feeding, they don't try to imply that it's bad if you don't. They say in a couple bullet points that regular feeding throughout the day was just as important.
    4. They actually went out of their way to say that milk protein sources shoudl be treated differently, even though the OP's nutritionist said that those were the way to go.
    5. Plus finally, their ratio of macros is much different. He is promoting almost a 1:1 carb to protein ratio. This article promotes a 3:1 carb to protein ratio. Within the guidelines of this article, I would be somewhere around a 60:20:20 diet.

    That's a start. I'm not saying to not consume some carbs and protein after lifting.
    I'm saying that it's not accurate for him to tell you that you need to consume these things withing 45 minutes of your workout.
    I always have a shake at some point after my workout, but that window of opportunity is grossly exaggerated.
  • going2losebig
    going2losebig Posts: 26 Member
    Options
    Thanks! this is all great information.
  • shelbyj72
    shelbyj72 Posts: 184 Member
    Options
    Thanks for sharing
  • sweetsarahj
    sweetsarahj Posts: 701 Member
    Options
    Great information! I'm going to have a protein shake after my cardio workouts now too!
  • Vick_MN
    Vick_MN Posts: 34
    Options
    bump
  • cleigh86
    cleigh86 Posts: 25
    Options
    bumpity bump!
  • jcoltx
    jcoltx Posts: 14
    Options
    Some very interesting information and discussion on here. Thank you!
  • Lanfear
    Lanfear Posts: 524
    Options
    Bumping so I can find and read this properly later!! :smile:
  • SHBoss1673
    SHBoss1673 Posts: 7,161 Member
    Options
    I've actually been trying to find some contradictory studies on this topic today (the eating after resistance thing), but really couldn't find any studies that refute this theory.

    Does anyone have any studies that show results that are at odds with eating soon after a glucose depletion workout? For the life of me, I can't find a single one. I really like looking at both sides of an issue if I can before making my mind up, and a study or two on this would be great.
  • sweetsarahj
    sweetsarahj Posts: 701 Member
    Options
    I've actually been trying to find some contradictory studies on this topic today (the eating after resistance thing), but really couldn't find any studies that refute this theory.

    Does anyone have any studies that show results that are at odds with eating soon after a glucose depletion workout? For the life of me, I can't find a single one. I really like looking at both sides of an issue if I can before making my mind up, and a study or two on this would be great.

    Did you check out T-Nation? There is a post about top ten fitness myths, I think it had links to studies about that.
  • Tinabeena73
    Options
    Thanks so much for this!
  • Dhathri
    Dhathri Posts: 323 Member
    Options
    Thanks for sharing
  • SHBoss1673
    SHBoss1673 Posts: 7,161 Member
    Options
    I've actually been trying to find some contradictory studies on this topic today (the eating after resistance thing), but really couldn't find any studies that refute this theory.

    Does anyone have any studies that show results that are at odds with eating soon after a glucose depletion workout? For the life of me, I can't find a single one. I really like looking at both sides of an issue if I can before making my mind up, and a study or two on this would be great.

    Did you check out T-Nation? There is a post about top ten fitness myths, I think it had links to studies about that.

    yeah, read it. I've also already read (lol) every single study that he cited (except for a couple on antioxidants that I really haven't gone to deep into yet, some day I will). That's a little scary. The problem is, who ever wrote it (someone named David Barr) is guilty of much of the same "telephone game" that he rails on in his article. In many cases he starts his sentance off with the words "I think..." and "to me..." which isn't the way you want to present a fact based breakdown of myths, as it denotes opinion and not fact. He made some good points, but generally his article is pointed towards heavy body building types, and what may very well be good info for someone looking to eek out that extra 1 to 2% mass increase for their workouts, really doesn't make much difference to the rest of us. His points about glycogen re-synthesis were (quoting here)
    Surprisingly, one study showed that consuming carbohydrates after strength training only increased muscle glycogen by 16% more than when water was consumed (Pascoe et al., 1993)! With this information and the huge amount of carbs that we consume on a daily basis, we should have little doubt that glycogen levels will be maximized within 24 hours of the workout.
    now, looking closely at this paragraph, you'll see that he downplays a 16% increase in glycogen re-synthesis. I don't know about you, but to me, that's a pretty large jump, 16% over 16 or 24 hours means a lot of extra fuel for the next day's workout. He also mentions that glycogen levels will be maximized after a 24 hour recovery period. I know that in the studies listed above (by myself and stormie) they talk about glycogen replenishing about 50% after depletion in 24 hours, so getting that extra 16% could be the difference between full recovery and shorting yourself the next day.