Guys, stop with the orthorexia already!
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I think another thing that gets overlooked here is that while yes, in the general population, these tendencies are likely uncommon, due to the nature of this site, the prevalence is likely higher. I think awareness and discussion of this phenomenon is good and necessary so that we can hopefully avoid the pitfall.
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Well, it is kind of ironic when you think about it...there are a lot of people on this site on the regular, thinking and talking and arguing about food and how to eat it all day...and giving a lot of *!#'s about how other people should eat and think about food. Just sayin0
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And I still think it's odd, and it does still mean vigilance over and above the intuitive approach to food that's characterized eating since forever.
I think that the proper term is "scarcity". That's what kept our ancestors thin without having to think about it. Why, even today we can look around the world and find perfect examples.
Right. Exactly. Our whole apparatus - our metabolism, taste buds, the cognitive shortcuts we use and errors we make (like our well-known tendency to overestimate portions) - is geared towards maximizing calorie intake in an environment of scarcity. However, our (western, contemporary) culture and environment promote surplus and overconsumption, both in the quantity of food and its design, when it's manufactured. Our work culture (40+ hour workweek, service-based [sedentary] vs. production [physical labour] economy) and the ways our cities are planned orient us away from physical activity. Therefore, it takes additional actions - actions that contradict both our physical apparatus and our cultural habits - to avoid overeating in the ways that evidently lead to obesity and overweight for the majority of westerners. Consistently implementing those actions takes additional and continual effort and learning and adjustment.0 -
neanderthin wrote: »
Ok, I see, it's a "real" *kitten* show.neanderthin wrote: »
lol. Well, shut the front door. She admits that she created a monster when she added balsamic vinegar to a recipe and the world has never been the same since.SnuggleSmacks wrote: »This interesting article discusses the growing epidemic of orthorexia, an obsession with the virtue of your food, rather than how much or little you eat. This can be obsessive thinking about gluten-free, clean, low-fat, local, juice-fasting, cleansing, or any other healthiest-diet-flavor-of-the-month.
I blame Alice Waters, and then stupid people running with her stupid ideas and expanding upon the idiocy.
lol, you should read up on what's she's done. If only it were so simple and cute.
I disdain her with such an intensity. She's the reason why when I go to a restaurant, I get a stupid resume for the pig I'm eating, but if I ask what preparation method they're using, they have to go ask the cooks.
I think she's part of the dippy circus that created the basis of this orthorexia fetish so many fall into.
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neanderthin wrote: »
I know it is a problem for people that actually have Celiac, but you have to keep in mind that there is a plethora of people with all sorts of eating restrictions that will pass it off for allergies. New Years Eve I had a table of six where 3 of them said they were very allergic to onions and I told the waiter that unfortunately I couldn't guarantee any cross contamination and suggested just having dessert and even then I mentioned cross contamination....... the waiter came back and said, don't worry as long as they don't see any onions they should be alright. This causes all sorts of problems for people that are actually allergic to one thing or another and I must take all inquiries seriously, so I suspect you are taken seriously except in the kitchen we know through experience that most are nothing more than eating irregularities."Gluten free" is only getting out of hand in terms of the number of people who don't have Celiac. For those of us that do... I appreciate getting smacked in the face with all of those GF labels.
Now if only I could get restaurants to take me seriously instead of laughing me off as just another fad dieter...
NOW I get your first response to my comment about Alice Waters. You have more context than the normal MFP folks.0 -
health_for_love wrote: »Let people do what they want? You can't make a person choose logic over ignorance.
Wanna bet?
By year's end we'll have more than a few states removing "philosophical and religious" vaccine exemptions.0 -
And I still think it's odd, and it does still mean vigilance over and above the intuitive approach to food that's characterized eating since forever.
We haven't always monitored UMV, DAU, return sessions, daily conversion rate, etc.
However analyzing that data allows one to act in a more optimal manner.
Calorie counting is very much the same. Nothing abnormal behind tracking and analyzing metrics that are deemed important to a specific mode of function or capability. In fact, not tracking would be the abnormality, now that such data are freely and easily accessible.0 -
This thread is as bad as those things you are all bashing. It's the same dang thing - group clamouring about being right and how everyone else is wrong and stupid.
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I just joined and THIS is the first impression I get?
Why not stop being so insecure? You are bothered by what those "stupid people " say only if it somehow makes you insecure about your own path. Personally, also have medical reasons to need to eat certain foods and not others but I don't care if half of Facebook is claiming that you should stuff a whole pineapple up your butt to be healthy. How does it harm me what othrrs think?
I follow what is right for me... not this lot or some other group.
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And I still think it's odd, and it does still mean vigilance over and above the intuitive approach to food that's characterized eating since forever.
We haven't always monitored UMV, DAU, return sessions, daily conversion rate, etc.
However analyzing that data allows one to act in a more optimal manner.
Calorie counting is very much the same. Nothing abnormal behind tracking and analyzing metrics that are deemed important to a specific mode of function or capability. In fact, not tracking would be the abnormality, now that such data are freely and easily accessible.
Yeah, I agree, it's what's necessary for weight management, and it's more optimal than having diabetes for sure. It's the stuff behind the metrics that might cause strain, kwim? I don't know. I don't think I have a lot left for this thread (finally).0 -
Maybe? If someone is wrongly attaching silly drama to the gathering and analysis of data, then sure. That's stupid though, I mean... seriously stupid. I'm not going to pull punches on that. I deal with data all day.And I still think it's odd, and it does still mean vigilance over and above the intuitive approach to food that's characterized eating since forever.
We haven't always monitored UMV, DAU, return sessions, daily conversion rate, etc.
However analyzing that data allows one to act in a more optimal manner.
Calorie counting is very much the same. Nothing abnormal behind tracking and analyzing metrics that are deemed important to a specific mode of function or capability. In fact, not tracking would be the abnormality, now that such data are freely and easily accessible.
Yeah, I agree, it's what's necessary for weight management, and it's more optimal than having diabetes for sure. It's the stuff behind the metrics that might cause strain, kwim? I don't know. I don't think I have a lot left for this thread (finally).
I think weight management is more than just losing, that can include gaining, optimizing, or even better working with extremes. I really dig data though, so I think anyone getting fruity about it is weird.
This was/is a funny thread.
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CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »I see a lot of the apple cider vinegar with the cinnamon,lemon and whatever else is in it thing, people on my facebook are doing. then when you tell them that doesnt work because it wont burn fat they tell you,well Im trying it anyway it cant hurt blah blah blah.Then you have people who are like OMG it does work Ive lost like X amount of pounds.I ask them are you eating less and moving more? the answer is yes then I tell them that is why they are losing weight not the ACV
Not justifying a fad, but my grandmother has drank ACV, lemon, water, and honey every morning since I can remember (at least 20 years). It's her morning cleanse. Whether or not it works is debatable, but she'll be 85 this year and still tends to a beautiful vegetable garden and chickens.
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rjmudlax13 wrote: »I honestly don't think that the "orthorexia epidemic" is really something we as a society need to devote too much concern and attention to. There are a lot more important things to attend to than worrying about whether people are becoming too focused on a healthy lifestyle.
Any time I perceive someone as being "militant" about their food or fitness routines, I don't automatically assume that it's a problem just because it's not my thing. I don't even worry about it unless it appears to be causing harm. I think the term orthorexia is thrown around way too lightly. Really, unless you are qualified to diagnose eating disorders, you probably shouldn't be making those kinds of judgments.
I'm sure IT IS a problem when an OCD person (orthorexic or not) gets fixated on anything, but I don't think that orthorexia is some huge, sweeping problem. If anything, our widespread lack of health-consciousness is far more problematic.
By the way, I guess I could be labeled orthorexic by some posters here just by virtue of being gluten free. I have to be focused on avoiding gluten in my diet. But rather than being a harmful thing, my healthy food "obsession" keeps my immune system from going nuts and attacking my digestive tract (Celiac).
I suggest not worrying so much about other people's choices. I think it's totally uncool to label people whose choices or ideas you don't agree with as mentally ill (having an eating disorder.)
Except that it can become a societal issue. One example is the anti-vaccination movement. In this case it is my business because I am now at risk because a bunch of aholes read something on the internet that says vaccinations cause autism. Also, I encourage bashing these idiots because they spread bs therefore making it difficult to get the right information. In a free society we should be free to bash retarded ideas.
Avoiding a cookie is not equivalent to avoiding a vaccine. In fact the food industry itself needs to come under heavy scrutiny, not people who are sincerely making efforts to eat as healthfully as possible and to feed their children the healthiest foods possible.
Factory farming has caused illnesses, too, and may contribute to our inability to find necessary treatment in the future due to misuse of antibiotics. Never mind that someone thought feeding chickens arsenic to make them grow faster was a good idea. Why is the focus here so heavily on people asking questions about organic foods, preservatives, veganism, low carb, and so forth and virtually never on the food industries themselves in various countries?0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Guess what. In order to not be overweight or obese and avoid related risks, you have to be a little weird, at least in our society.
Disagree strongly.
Also, the idea that someone being "gluten free" in our culture is being countercultural (or even weird) is like the idea that long hair on men in the late 60s or early 70s was bucking the system and being an individual, man. It was just trendy in a different social group. Being into food restrictions is totally trendy in many US (and probably other English-speaking country) subcultures.
Orthorexia specifically is about clean foods, yes, but we all have to make conscious adaptations to prevent overweight, obesity, regain, etc. Some of these adaptations, like calorie counting, demand what some might call slightly obsessional behaviour. You really don't think, in your heart of hearts, that calorie counting is a little weird? Really? I did it for years and am doing it now, and it's much easier than it was when I first-first started, but I still think it's a little weird.
(Also, why didn't you include the rest of that paragraph in your quote, where I said basically what I just repeated above?)
Calorie counting is just as weird as orthorexia, imo.
First, I went back and checked, and no, what you said is nothing like what I said, and I continue to disagree with it. It is NOT true that one has to be "psychologically abnormal" to avoid being overweight, let alone obese, and I further don't agree that counting calories, doing one of the many other things possible to monitor food amounts, or even being into food-related trends like low carb or paleo or gluten free is, in fact, psychologically abnormal. Some of it is trendy, however. It's sad if it goes over into orthorexia territory, but I suspect that has more to do with preexisting tendencies that are channeled in that particular way rather than dieting being the actual cause.
And your later post that claims cooking requires some kind of weirdness in our society is just, well, weird. Cooking is pretty normal and standard among people I know, at least those who are married and have children (and a great many or most of the single women as well). It's part of being responsible.
In any event, the issue with orthorexia is not that it's weird, rather obviously.
Calorie counting is definitely statistically abnormal, for one thing, plain and simple - most people don't do it. It also appears to require significant learning that involves complex emotional reactions and pragmatic difficulties. The entirety of MFP's forums speaks to the difficulties people have with calorie counting. It's not normal.
Statistically uncommon does not mean psychologically abnormal, as you claimed.
Yes, it's uncommon because it's a hassle and until recently was more of one, and because lots of people don't need to do it or wish to.
I didn't claim it was? I clearly distinguished between the two.
Yup, it is a hassle. Why is it a hassle? Because the tendency is for people to gain weight in the culture and systems in which we now live. This is a new thing. Historically, it wasn't the case. It is a result of social and economic changes. I really don't know how it's possible to argue otherwise, outside of willful blindness.
In your first post that I originally quoted you said not psychologically normal. If you are changing your position, good, but be open about it.
To prove my point, here's the quote: "It is not exactly psychologically normal to count calories for a lifetime, yet that is what many will have to do to keep it off long-term."
It's a hassle because it requires doing something vs. not doing something. Same with all sorts of things we should do. I addressed why gaining weight is an issue now and wasn't in the past and your need to see that as some victim thing vs. the result of food availability (a good thing) and freedom of choice (fewer social norms re eating) is odd to me.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »I strongly disagree with your consistent reading of the MFP forums as showing that people have tremendous trouble with calorie counting, in any event. That seems to be what you want to see, but [people who are actually motivated to lose weight and for whom it's a personality fit seem to find it liberating or educational, even if they only choose to do it for a time. Many others don't seem like they are ready under any system. And still others choose one of the many alternatives (as I did once in the past).
What are all these threads about, then, seriously? What is the support for? 7/10 threads are about some kind of challenge, pragmatic problem or distress.
Is it educational? Yes. Is it hard? Yes.
Because these are people who a) have never counted calories before, b) still think of weight loss in gimmick-y terms ("I have to omit x food or I won't lose!" "I need to do a cleanse to kick start my weight loss!" "I need to exercise for 50 hours every week!" etc), c) are over-thinking it, d) they have no understanding of calories.
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Absolutely. And that's why many of us try to fight those ideas, which are harmful. Understanding is the best remedy.0 -
And I still think it's odd, and it does still mean vigilance over and above the intuitive approach to food that's characterized eating since forever.
I think that the proper term is "scarcity". That's what kept our ancestors thin without having to think about it. Why, even today we can look around the world and find perfect examples.
This, plus cultural rules about eating. When eating is something done only socially and follows certain culturally determined patterns, people don't overeat really. When eating is something you do on your own, based purely on likes and dislikes, and is as individualistic as everything else in our culture, it's harder. Add to this that normal humans aren't sedentary and lots of people in our culture are, and that's why weight is an issue (and why it is more of an issue or was first in the US vs. Europe).
This is not "society makes us fat" it's that a bad thing like food scarcity and a more mixed thing like the absence of a more regulated society are no longer keeping us thin. It's now up to personal choice for those who have a greater tendency to get fat, and that's not something we are that experienced with yet. But it's dealing with something more akin to choice in the kind of life we lead, what career we will follow, etc., not "society is ruining things for us!" or that society is disordered. The fact is that when you have freedom and choice some people are always going to choose poorly, that's the trade-off. Some will choose to be inactive if activity is not required for daily life, and if they can eat whenever and wherever they please (something that is a plus for many--I can go to an Ethiopian restaurant or find something to eat if I work 'til 10 pm or buy ocean fish and summer squash in January in the store, can order food to be delivered to my house (healthy or non healthy, my choice) and all all kinds of things I couldn't do food-wise if I lived on a farm with the same access to food as my great grandparents. The need to see all this as a negative change is not something I can agree with. It does mean we have to think about things most people didn't have to in the past, oh, well.0 -
This guy I went to high school with used to be kinda fat, and unhealthy. So he started eating lots of vegetables and stuff and lost a bunch of weight, which is good for him, but he is always posting stuff on his Facebook preaching about being vegan and eating organic, and how this and that are bad for you and we shouldn't be eating such and such. It's just really annoying. I hate it when people preach about what we should or shouldn't be eating. I am healthy myself and I'll stick with eating how I like to eat. I may just unfriend him so I don't have to look at all his "holier than thou" posts about food.0
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Hightest percentage of obese people in history
increasing heart disease
increasing cancer rates
lowering life spans
children with type 2 diabetes
children with heart plaque
I'd say we have more urgent issues than "orthorexia".
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SnuggleSmacks wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Guess what. In order to not be overweight or obese and avoid related risks, you have to be a little weird, at least in our society.
Disagree strongly.
Also, the idea that someone being "gluten free" in our culture is being countercultural (or even weird) is like the idea that long hair on men in the late 60s or early 70s was bucking the system and being an individual, man. It was just trendy in a different social group. Being into food restrictions is totally trendy in many US (and probably other English-speaking country) subcultures.
Orthorexia specifically is about clean foods, yes, but we all have to make conscious adaptations to prevent overweight, obesity, regain, etc. Some of these adaptations, like calorie counting, demand what some might call slightly obsessional behaviour. You really don't think, in your heart of hearts, that calorie counting is a little weird? Really? I did it for years and am doing it now, and it's much easier than it was when I first-first started, but I still think it's a little weird.
(Also, why didn't you include the rest of that paragraph in your quote, where I said basically what I just repeated above?)
Calorie counting is just as weird as orthorexia, imo.
First, I went back and checked, and no, what you said is nothing like what I said, and I continue to disagree with it. It is NOT true that one has to be "psychologically abnormal" to avoid being overweight, let alone obese, and I further don't agree that counting calories, doing one of the many other things possible to monitor food amounts, or even being into food-related trends like low carb or paleo or gluten free is, in fact, psychologically abnormal. Some of it is trendy, however. It's sad if it goes over into orthorexia territory, but I suspect that has more to do with preexisting tendencies that are channeled in that particular way rather than dieting being the actual cause.
And your later post that claims cooking requires some kind of weirdness in our society is just, well, weird. Cooking is pretty normal and standard among people I know, at least those who are married and have children (and a great many or most of the single women as well). It's part of being responsible.
In any event, the issue with orthorexia is not that it's weird, rather obviously.
Calorie counting is definitely statistically abnormal, for one thing, plain and simple - most people don't do it. It also appears to require significant learning that involves complex emotional reactions and pragmatic difficulties. The entirety of MFP's forums speaks to the difficulties people have with calorie counting. It's not normal.
Statistically uncommon does not mean psychologically abnormal, as you claimed.
Yes, it's uncommon because it's a hassle and until recently was more of one, and because lots of people don't need to do it or wish to.
I didn't claim it was? I clearly distinguished between the two.
Yup, it is a hassle. Why is it a hassle? Because the tendency is for people to gain weight in the culture and systems in which we now live. This is a new thing. Historically, it wasn't the case. It is a result of social and economic changes. I really don't know how it's possible to argue otherwise, outside of willful blindness.
Yes, you did, here:Calorie counting is definitely statistically abnormal, for one thing, plain and simple - most people don't do it. It also ]appears to require significant learning that involves complex emotional reactions and pragmatic difficulties. The entirety of MFP's forums speaks to the difficulties people have with calorie counting. It's not normal.
Bolded (1) is one statement addressing statistical abnormality.
Bolded + italics (2) addresses functional/qualitative abnormality. That clause is preceded by "also", which marks a change from the previous sentence.
ok here:
(1) Calorie counting is definitely statistically abnormal, for one thing, plain and simple - most people don't do it. (2) It also ]appears to require significant learning that involves complex emotional reactions and pragmatic difficulties. The entirety of MFP's forums speaks to the difficulties people have with calorie counting. It's not normal.
I look at calorie counting as a tool which enables me to be successful in achieving an overall goal - a healthy weight. This is really no different than any other learned behavior or work assignment or new passion that a person undertakes. When someone first sets out to master one of these things, they likely have limited experience and skills. At first learning these techniques will be challenging. They may need to do research, ask for help, try and fail a few times. This is no different than being asked to master a new Microsoft Office tool at work, learning to ride a bike, building a woodworking project, cooking a multi course meal, etc. Any of these new endeavors will pose challenges for the first time, or first few times one attempts them. As one becomes more comfortable with the skills, the anxiety about them goes down and the quality of the end product goes up.
The people you are seeing posting in the forums with all the stress and anxiety are likely new to the MFP tool (maybe not new to dieting) and as they become more comfortable you usually see less questions, a more relaxed approach, and often times a desire to return to the forums to help other newbies.
I believe we have lost some valuable information about the MFP community with the forum "upgrade" when time as a member and tickers are no longer displayed. People do not know how long someone has been here and how successful a user has been (in terms of strict weight loss, there are other measures obviously).
Tomatoey you seem to be focusing in on the anxious users rather than those who are comfortable with the process.
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As someone who's whole family has celiac disease I have no problem with this gluten free fad. It makes products I need cheaper and more widely available.0
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