why don't the low carb folks believe in CICO?
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kamakazeekim wrote: »I have PCOS and when I tried just CICO I continued gaining weight. Once I was put on metformin and restricted carbs I lost weight like crazy even though my calorie intake actually went up. I realize the typical person without a hormone issue going on probably wouldn't have the same issues that I did.
you are still doing CICO ..you are just using medication to regulate the out side for you ..
I have PCOS and have been on Metformin for years. CICO did not work for me, while on the medication, and I gained weight while eating within my calorie range and working out. Even when varying the amount of exercise calories back or not eating them at all. I measure my food and don't eat junk either.
When I eat low carb I lose weight. My medication hasn't changed and my exercise hasn't changed either, the only thing that has changed is the restricting of carbohydrates. I still eat within my calorie range, still vary eating back my exercise calories, yet now I'm losing weight. For some of us, low carb eating is medically necessary and CICO will never work.
^^^ I have experienced this exact same thing. I think many PCOS'ers have which is why I am guessing the OP opted to say he wasn't talking about those with medical issues.
My experience was the exact same- I was doing calorie restriction- 1600 a day, let MFP set my macros for me, even researched TDEE and IIFYM calculators to see what my macros should be and set them by those. Was working out twice a week with a very good personal trainer and three times a week on my own- did not lose weight.
I also did CICO based on TDEE with a 500 cal cut (as recommended)- without working out while on metformin- did not lose weight.
Now- I am still sticking to my 1600 cals, on metformin and cut carbs as recommended by my doc and nutritionist and I am losing steadily- without exercise. The only difference is that now I am limiting my carbs to 30g a day. I am adding exercise now (just this week) because I want to build muscle. For some of us low carbers as @Babbs1977 says- CICO alone will never work
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Onlythetruth wrote: »The high-fat, low-carb and low-refined sugar way of eating has left the station. Time to get on board!
There's a reason why you can find a couple of dozen LCHF diet books on Amazon, and no HCLF diet books. LCHF works. Why? Because with for me and millions, you just eat fewer calories with LCHF. It's that simple.
And before you get into a tizzy, I'm not saying no carbs and no sugar. I'm saying low carbs and low sugar. There is always a time to eat that piece of cheesecake.
You can find any kind of diet book on amazon. No one here is recommending a HCLF diet (I'd hate it), but there are people on MFP all about the raw 80-10-10 stuff, and plenty of diet books for plenty of different kinds of diets that are HCLF.
I don't at all disagree that LCHF works, but this is the kind of post that we've been responding to that Mel seems to want to dismiss (I would too if I were her, since she seems extremely sensible and to have a good understanding of how different diets work for different people). The point I and others are making is that LCHF is not the best diet ever and doesn't work for EVERYONE. It would not work for me, whereas balanced macros do (balance depending on what my TDEE is and how much activity I'm doing). You may eat fewer calories doing LCHF (if only because you are using that to cut out trigger foods that for you happen to be processed carbs), but that's not so for everyone, and if you are doing it to cut out foods that tempt you (as opposed to dealing with satiety issues) I'm frankly skeptical about whether there's any benefit long term.0 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »I know it will require people to buy the book but what got me into LCHF was "the art and science of low carbohydrate performance" buy it on a kindle for 10$. Most of the book points to the fact we can run on very little carbs and perform just as well as if we were on them. A one/two week phase is needed to get started. Think like cutting coffee out. Your body hates you but after a while it was just a habit. I look at our body's as has tanks the amount of fat and carbs we can hold. From the book, please excuse the lack of exact data, we can store up to 2000 calories of carbs. Whereas fat can be stored in the 10000s. Why not learn to use that instead? Following a keto diet allows the fat to burn and consume the energy we are carrying around our waist/hips/arms etc.
Because fruit is good and healthy...because legumes are good and healthy...because whole grains are awesome and healthy...because sweet potatoes and potatoes kick *kitten*....and because you can simply burn that fat by eating a balanced and healthy diet and simply consuming less calories than your body requires.
This is what really irks me about keto folk...you all act like the only way you're going to use fat as fuel and burn that fat off your body is if you're keto...I don't know why you all act like this when you're so obviously wrong as evidenced by the *kitten* load of fit and trim and healthy people not doing keto....
See again, there are those assumptions that "all act like this".
The way people get to a calorie deficit for some people is to eat LCHF Who are you to determine how they get to a calorie deficit? Great that works for you, but it doesn't work for everybody.
I wasn't making any assumption...I was quoting someone making that claim...I've been in several discussions all week in regards to the same...and I've been here over 2.5 years and this is nothing new. You can believe that it's just a few, but it's not...it's the overwhelming majority...keto is some kind of religion I think, not a diet.
So, next time a fight breaks out, and people want to insist, " nobody EVER says that," here's your boilerplate. " It's everyone, it's a religion, they all say the same thing". If you ever want to know why people resent non-lc people hijacking a newbie's thread instead of letting people direct them to the lc group, this is why.
The pages last night were helpful. Today it's gone where it always go, people who ignore what's said, to instead argue with their preferred stereotype.
it was bound to go off rails...
However, I do understand where wolfman is coming from. If you read through the threads you will see people saying "carbs make me fat" or "carbs are bad' or "carbs spike insulin which causes fat to store" OR out in the real world I talk to people about health and fitness and the first thing they usually say is "oh, I really can't eat that many carbs because they are bad..."
Exactly this...it's not just MFP...MFP is simply a microcosm of the greater derp out there. Pick up pretty much any health or fitness magazine...talk to any number of personal trainers who are getting most of their info from those same sources...overwhelmingly, the prevailing "wisdom" is that carbs are the devil...or you have to be Paleo to be healthy and fit. It's insane, but very trendy...0 -
I actually feel bad for the sensible Low Carbers on MFP sometimes. They come in, all rational with their, "it's the way to make CICO work best for me" or their, "of course, I have a particular medical concern that makes eating this way a priority...." and then some nut comes in and shouts over their sanity with the "THE REFINED SUGARZ WILL KILL YOU BULLETPROOF COFFEE 4 LYFE!!!!!" business and the result is....sigh.
It must be exhausting.
+1
Also
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cwolfman13 wrote: »@lemurcat12 That is my frustration that people are making assumptions on those that are newbies, whether one or off MFP, to low carb.
I don't know if its for everybody who started eating low carb and has made it long term, but I would have insisted cutting carbs was the answer. It wasn't until I started using MFP and tracking and reading that I saw what was happening. It was a learning process and a lot of that happened in the low carb forums, not on the regular forums.
Perhaps you are a sensible one and if you are I apologize if I offend, but honestly you would be one of the few. I am very active in the fitness community and industry at large, and by and large the current prevailing derp is that indeed carbs are the devil. I'm literally seeing trainers at my gym tell clients not to eat things like sweet peas or carrots...it's stupid...and it's rampant derp, it's not just a few newbs on MFP.
Hell, if it wasn't so rampant you wouldn't have threads and posts asking if potatoes are "good" or "bad"...it's a flippin' whole food.
For those that are claiming carbs come from the devil, they may NEVER make that transition to acknowledging that it is just a tool or a way to cut calories. Or that there is something magic about low carb and that you can eat as much butter and sour cream as you want. Honestly, until I started using MFP I honestly thought it was cutting the carbs that was helping and never thought I was cutting my calories enough to lose the weight I did. It was a big "aha!" for me.0 -
Onlythetruth wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »The high-fat, low-carb and low-refined sugar way of eating has left the station. Time to get on board!
There's a reason why you can find a couple of dozen LCHF diet books on Amazon, and no HCLF diet books. LCHF works. Why? Because with for me and millions, you just eat fewer calories with LCHF. It's that simple.
And before you get into a tizzy, I'm not saying no carbs and no sugar. I'm saying low carbs and low sugar. There is always a time to eat that piece of cheesecake.
no thanks..
I like to lift heavy things and put them back down..if I went low carb my gym performance would go in the crapper...
I am glad it works for people; however an intake that hits macros/micros/calorie goals will work just as well. One is not superior to the other...
Of course you missed the entire point.
a) You could still lift heavy things at the gym.
b) 99% of the people are not in a contest with themselves to see how much they can lift at the gym.
c) You can talk about macro/micros/calorie goals until you are blue in the face, but the vast majority of people do not count macros/micros and calories.
d) So if you are not counting, but eat an egg for breakfast everyday instead of a bagel, you will eat fewer calories. It's that simple.
way to move the goal posts..
you went from everyone should jump on the low carb band wagon to pointing out other people do or don't do ...
my point is that it doe not matter what "train" you jump on , they are all headed in the same direction.
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For what it's worth, I did low carb once upon a time about a decade ago when it seem like all this craziness started...I simply didn't see the point of it when I was fully capable of accomplishing the same thing by merely eating more sensibly.0
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lemurcat12 wrote: »Onlythetruth wrote: »The high-fat, low-carb and low-refined sugar way of eating has left the station. Time to get on board!
There's a reason why you can find a couple of dozen LCHF diet books on Amazon, and no HCLF diet books. LCHF works. Why? Because with for me and millions, you just eat fewer calories with LCHF. It's that simple.
And before you get into a tizzy, I'm not saying no carbs and no sugar. I'm saying low carbs and low sugar. There is always a time to eat that piece of cheesecake.
You can find any kind of diet book on amazon. No one here is recommending a HCLF diet (I'd hate it), but there are people on MFP all about the raw 80-10-10 stuff, and plenty of diet books for plenty of different kinds of diets that are HCLF.
I don't at all disagree that LCHF works, but this is the kind of post that we've been responding to that Mel seems to want to dismiss (I would to if I were her, since she seems extremely sensible and to have a good understanding of how different diets work for different people). The point I and others are making is that LCHF is not the best diet ever and doesn't work for EVERYONE. It would not work for me, whereas balanced macros do (balance depending on what my TDEE is and how much activity I'm doing). You may eat fewer calories doing LCHF (if only because you are using that to cut out trigger foods that for you happen to be processed carbs), but that's not so for everyone, and if you are doing it to cut out foods that tempt you (as opposed to dealing with satiety issues) I'm frankly skeptical about whether there's any benefit long term.
Well it is like nails on a chalk board when people say "low carb and low sugar" lol
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beccyleigh wrote: »yopeeps025 wrote: »beccyleigh wrote: »I suppose the only question you need to ask yourself is "Is what I am doing, working for me?" If the answer is yes give no *kitten* what other people do. It seems to get some of you all twisted in your knickers over other peoples decisions. Chill. Pill.
And if what you are doing isn't working, then find something else.
Hmm so educating people on what not needs to be done is a problem?
I guess this poster just believes that we should 100% validate everything on MFP no matter how crazy the topic
Nope, not at all but don't let your total lack of knowledge on what I think, feel or believe stop you from making claims of it. I think the discussion can be had but not with people so unable to concede to another's view as yourself. Just try to lower the righteous preaching & you might have a worthy topic.
complains aboutt preaching and then preaches...
interesting...0 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »I know it will require people to buy the book but what got me into LCHF was "the art and science of low carbohydrate performance" buy it on a kindle for 10$. Most of the book points to the fact we can run on very little carbs and perform just as well as if we were on them. A one/two week phase is needed to get started. Think like cutting coffee out. Your body hates you but after a while it was just a habit. I look at our body's as has tanks the amount of fat and carbs we can hold. From the book, please excuse the lack of exact data, we can store up to 2000 calories of carbs. Whereas fat can be stored in the 10000s. Why not learn to use that instead? Following a keto diet allows the fat to burn and consume the energy we are carrying around our waist/hips/arms etc.
Because fruit is good and healthy...because legumes are good and healthy...because whole grains are awesome and healthy...because sweet potatoes and potatoes kick *kitten*....and because you can simply burn that fat by eating a balanced and healthy diet and simply consuming less calories than your body requires.
This is what really irks me about keto folk...you all act like the only way you're going to use fat as fuel and burn that fat off your body is if you're keto...I don't know why you all act like this when you're so obviously wrong as evidenced by the *kitten* load of fit and trim and healthy people not doing keto....
See again, there are those assumptions that "all act like this".
The way people get to a calorie deficit for some people is to eat LCHF Who are you to determine how they get to a calorie deficit? Great that works for you, but it doesn't work for everybody.
I wasn't making any assumption...I was quoting someone making that claim...I've been in several discussions all week in regards to the same...and I've been here over 2.5 years and this is nothing new. You can believe that it's just a few, but it's not...it's the overwhelming majority...keto is some kind of religion I think, not a diet.
So, next time a fight breaks out, and people want to insist, " nobody EVER says that," here's your boilerplate. " It's everyone, it's a religion, they all say the same thing". If you ever want to know why people resent non-lc people hijacking a newbie's thread instead of letting people direct them to the lc group, this is why.
The pages last night were helpful. Today it's gone where it always go, people who ignore what's said, to instead argue with their preferred stereotype.
it was bound to go off rails...
However, I do understand where wolfman is coming from. If you read through the threads you will see people saying "carbs make me fat" or "carbs are bad' or "carbs spike insulin which causes fat to store" OR out in the real world I talk to people about health and fitness and the first thing they usually say is "oh, I really can't eat that many carbs because they are bad..."
Exactly this...it's not just MFP...MFP is simply a microcosm of the greater derp out there. Pick up pretty much any health or fitness magazine...talk to any number of personal trainers who are getting most of their info from those same sources...overwhelmingly, the prevailing "wisdom" is that carbs are the devil...or you have to be Paleo to be healthy and fit. It's insane, but very trendy...
seriously, I see there is a paleo magazine now ...LOL ...
sigh ..0 -
Well I do keto now for medical reasons. I love it and never thought I would.
I'm a low carber that believes in CICO.
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I actually feel bad for the sensible Low Carbers on MFP sometimes. They come in, all rational with their, "it's the way to make CICO work best for me" or their, "of course, I have a particular medical concern that makes eating this way a priority...." and then some nut comes in and shouts over their sanity with the "THE REFINED SUGARZ WILL KILL YOU BULLETPROOF COFFEE 4 LYFE!!!!!" business and the result is....sigh.
It must be exhausting.
I agree ...
however, it is probably the same feeling that some of us get when the clean eaters say that moderation is all about eating 2000 calories of twinkies all the time...
That is so dumb. Everyone knows we eat 2000 calories of ice cream.
Except on Sundays. Sundays are now Peep Cleanse Day.
Wrong- sundays are YELLOW peep cleanse day-- don't forget he said it was only yellow peeps that did the cleansing! 0 -
kamakazeekim wrote: »I have PCOS and when I tried just CICO I continued gaining weight. Once I was put on metformin and restricted carbs I lost weight like crazy even though my calorie intake actually went up. I realize the typical person without a hormone issue going on probably wouldn't have the same issues that I did.
you are still doing CICO ..you are just using medication to regulate the out side for you ..
I have PCOS and have been on Metformin for years. CICO did not work for me, while on the medication, and I gained weight while eating within my calorie range and working out. Even when varying the amount of exercise calories back or not eating them at all. I measure my food and don't eat junk either.
When I eat low carb I lose weight. My medication hasn't changed and my exercise hasn't changed either, the only thing that has changed is the restricting of carbohydrates. I still eat within my calorie range, still vary eating back my exercise calories, yet now I'm losing weight. For some of us, low carb eating is medically necessary and CICO will never work.
^^^ I have experienced this exact same thing. I think many PCOS'ers have which is why I am guessing the OP opted to say he wasn't talking about those with medical issues.
My experience was the exact same- I was doing calorie restriction- 1600 a day, let MFP set my macros for me, even researched TDEE and IIFYM calculators to see what my macros should be and set them by those. Was working out twice a week with a very good personal trainer and three times a week on my own- did not lose weight.
I also did CICO based on TDEE with a 500 cal cut (as recommended)- without working out while on metformin- did not lose weight.
Now- I am still sticking to my 1600 cals, on metformin and cut carbs as recommended by my doc and nutritionist and I am losing steadily- without exercise. The only difference is that now I am limiting my carbs to 30g a day. I am adding exercise now (just this week) because I want to build muscle. For some of us low carbers as @Babbs1977 says- CICO alone will never work
OK but it is still CICO ..you are just using low carb + medicine to balance out the "CO" side...0 -
beccyleigh wrote: »yopeeps025 wrote: »beccyleigh wrote: »I suppose the only question you need to ask yourself is "Is what I am doing, working for me?" If the answer is yes give no *kitten* what other people do. It seems to get some of you all twisted in your knickers over other peoples decisions. Chill. Pill.
And if what you are doing isn't working, then find something else.
Hmm so educating people on what not needs to be done is a problem?
I guess this poster just believes that we should 100% validate everything on MFP no matter how crazy the topic
Nope, not at all but don't let your total lack of knowledge on what I think, feel or believe stop you from making claims of it. I think the discussion can be had but not with people so unable to concede to another's view as yourself. Just try to lower the righteous preaching & you might have a worthy topic.
complains aboutt preaching and then preaches...
interesting...
Are you able to respond with more than "blah blah.....interesting" are you able to articulate just what is interesting in it so the rest of us can decide if we agree?
Queue - blah blah interesting post in 5...4...3...
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cwolfman13 wrote: »blktngldhrt wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »blktngldhrt wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
CICO is a one size fits all.rachylouise87 wrote: »firm believer in CICO but some people are more insulin sensitive. firm believer weight loss is not a one fits all.
big believer in the below
http://www.metaboliceffect.com/hormonal-weight-loss/
http://www.metaboliceffect.com/female-effect-hormones-determine-female-fat-patterns/
Medical conditions just skew one or the other.
CICO is one size fits all, but the macro ratios that work best for you will differ person to person. Like I said above, one thing that occasionally annoys me about some low carb people here (not the sensible ones, which are most of those in this thread) is the assertion that EVERYONE would do better on lower carbs or that everyone finds that carbs trigger their hunger in the same way, etc. But the same is, of course, true in reverse when people insist that low carb is unhealthy or can't work or would be too depressing. Depends on the person.
And this is where IIFYMM comes into play.
It holds true for keto, vegan, paleo, veg, LCHF, we all have Macros and Micros just how we fill them differs.
I always find it funny when people hate on IIFYM yet they actually follow it.
Yes, I agree with all that. I interpret IIFYM as just meaning that you watch your macros, basically. By definition low carb folks do, at least low carb folks who also try to hit a general ballpark or better for their fat percentage.
And from my view, most low carbers focus on their macro ratios. Just their macros look a little different than the SAD.
Anyone who cares about their diet is going to have a diet that looks a lot different than the SAD...you don't have to low carb. My diary is open...my nutritional profile is outstanding and a far cry from the SAD, and I don't low carb at all.
Simply having a balanced diet is going to be a far cry from the SAD. To me, the comment:And from my view, most low carbers focus on their macro ratios. Just their macros look a little different than the SAD.
Implies that carbs = SAD = junk. There are a whole lot of highly nutritious carbs out there that aren't "junk"...carbs go well beyond 40 ounce Big Gulps.
I never once said junk. Never once.
I didn't say that you said it...it would appear to be implied in the statement and it's an implication that is made often by low carbers...I know a few personally, and they all think carbs are satan...they all think carbs are killing people...they're nutty.
It's ok...I'll enjoy my legumes and my whole grain oats and my brown rice and my potatoes and sweet potatoes and my fruit and my copious amounts of daily vegetables and I'll be happy.
you are so defensive when it comes to low carbers... in every thread. just relax. not everyone is out to call carbs junk or satan.
my body doesn't take well to them. doesn't make them bad for everyone. i know that. you don't want people to say all carbs are bad but you usually come in insinuating that all low carbers are...
i enjoy sweet potatoes, fruit, legumes, and vegetables, too.
I've been around here for over 2.5 years and frankly, low carbers and keto folks in general are the preachiest of the bunch...
Not to mention, I"m pretty active in the fitness community and industry in general and I'm actually witnessing dill hole trainers and the like telling their clients not to eat sweet peas for example...'cuz carbs. It's hard not to be a little defensive when derp is this abundant...
I'm just an old fashioned guys I guess...I simply believe in eating a balanced and varied diet that is rich in nutrition...guess that's just not cool and apparently I'm going to die from sweet peas now...
guy who hates preaching gets preachy
Yup...someone's gotta fight the power...
Srsly can't wait for this derp to just go away...
have you seen idiocracy? i don't think the derp is going anywhere.0 -
I know it will require people to buy the book but what got me into LCHF was "the art and science of low carbohydrate performance" buy it on a kindle for 10$. Most of the book points to the fact we can run on very little carbs and perform just as well as if we were on them. A one/two week phase is needed to get started. Think like cutting coffee out. Your body hates you but after a while it was just a habit. I look at our body's as has tanks the amount of fat and carbs we can hold. From the book, please excuse the lack of exact data, we can store up to 2000 calories of carbs. Whereas fat can be stored in the 10000s. Why not learn to use that instead? Following a keto diet allows the fat to burn and consume the energy we are carrying around our waist/hips/arms etc.
You don't need to do keto to burn fat. Also, I know a couple sports physiologists who actually have trained "fat-adapted" athletes. And above 70% Vo2 max the "fat-adapted" athletes fall flat.0 -
There are studies that show it's not the quantity of calories but the quality. Dr. Hyman and Dr. Gray (Wheat Belly) are proof of this. Plus, here's a conundrum if you believe calories in calories out: when cows were fed a high-fat diet of coconut oil, they LOST weight. Ranchers thought that would be a cheap way to fatten them up, but it had the opposite effect.
Fat (which a lot of low carbers tout) helps you feel full, helps your bathroom habit, keeps hair and skin healthy, and helps brain function. Brain runs almost entirely off fat.
I've found that a lower-carb diet helps me lose weight. I eat healthy fats, but in reasonable quantities. But I listen to my body; if it is craving carbs I will fix a healthy low GI carb (sweet potato, beans, ...) at the next meal.
There are a lot of things we don't know about how our bodies use food. I don't discount anything that works for anyone.0 -
I don't even know where to begin...
The process of converting protein to glucose through gluconeogensis is not thermodynamically favorable. What this means, it just takes more energy to convert specific amino acids to glucose. I see data that suggests your metabolic rate raises on a ketogenic based diet. This was done on people in a calorimeter, with a tighly controlled diet.
So you can sit there eat 2000 calories of a carb based diet with no results due to your TDEE being 2000. Switch over to a low carb diet and your metabolism can increase above 2000. You can sit there eating 2000 calories of a protein based diet and lose weight. Then you come to the conclusion, "i am eating the same as before."
Someone said something about fat and satiety. That theory was a long time ago, I would assume in the late 1990's. Fat supposedly triggers CCK(Cholecystokinin) which makes you feel fuller. But we also have to keep in mind if that's even true, fat is still double the calories.
There is also some people talking about eating a lot of fat such as in keto, the fat comes out the other end. I mean we all heard of floaters... so Idk. It's a possibility.
I'm going to focus on the bold part since I've never seen the data you suggest in the first paragraph.
I don't understand what you mean that fat is double the calories, as in what that means to low carb diets? Low carb dieters don't take the 100g of carbs they would eat otherwise and go and eat 100g of fat instead because they cut those 100g out. I guess I'm confused on what that line meant.
1g of carbs = 4 calories
1g of fat = 9 calories
I understand that. I'm just not sure what the poster meant by that line. That since a gram of fat is double the calories that is why people claim to feel more full, that there are more calories per gram? Just not sure. Either way, I think that feeling full is a big plus for people that eat LCHF.
I feel full and don't eat LCHF.....not sure why LCHFers think they are the only ones to feel full
The difference is that the low carbers who eat high fat will feel full (synonymous with not feeling hungry or weak from hunger) not for 6-8 hours, but from 8-16 hours or longer. I can eat dinner at 8pm, go to bed, wake up at 6am, have 200 calories of heavy whipping cream, and I am good til about 3 or 4 in the afternoon.
This is my eating pattern, and this is the methodology behind keto/lchf. If I have no desire to eat Anything, I have no overeating challenges. And its not an eating disorder...I eat like a slob at night.0 -
My twopenneth:
Stuff like this does make me wonder http://live.smashthefat.com/why-i-didnt-get-fat/
Now I know the water weight thing but I doubt that can account for more than a certain % of body weight so over a week maybe but not convinced it's a factor beyond that.
Plus I know people who have tried LCHF and talked about how much cheese etc you can eat. This is not calorie cheap. Let's say I have a 3 egg cheese omelette with ham for breakfast, a 500g salmon fillet for lunch with green veg, and perhaps 300g chicken with mushroom and cream sauce for dinner? That isn't going to be cheap on the calorie front!
All that said, I prefer the balanced diet approach albeit I have found keeping carb calories slightly lower than fat and reducing sugar to whole fruit, veg and dairy sources has helped me lose better in recent months, as anecdotal as that is.0
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