Ayurvedic nutrition for weight loss (and general sanity)
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mamapeach910 wrote: »I've bolded the key word in what you said. The biggest problem with all of this is that because there is a currency of belief involved, the whole area is ripe for people being parted from their money in unscrupulous ways for unfounded reasons.
There's a whole website... http://whatstheharm.net/... devoted to answering the question... "what could happen?" when people seek out alternative therapies without engaging some critical thinking.
There's also Quackwatch. And even though someone posted links trying to discredit the PERSON behind it, doing that does NOTHING to discredit the information posted on that site. You can't find anything to discredit it outside of the woo sites themselves.
Totally agreed, without a doubt, analysis and critical thinking is even more important when looking into alternative methods, precisely because of the level of belief and trust necessary. Without a doubt, there are many quacks in the profession. There are, unfortunately, also many quacks in Western medicine, as well; or doctors all too willing to medicate or operate unnecessarily. Critical thinking is advisable no matter what aspect of medical care one turns to; and of course, in times of stress, pain or illness, critical thinking is very difficult. Hopefully, we all have someone at our side who can help us make vital decisions (and hopefully, we are all equipped and able to return such favors if/when we're needed).
Absolutely agreed. I worked my way through YEARS of awful doctors before I found good ones who restored my goodwill towards the medical profession!
It wasn't until I approached doctors as a consumer, the same way I would were I to be shopping for a car, that I finally found decent ones. While I was operating within the constraints of my health insurance I was still able to turn a critical eye to what they offered.
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Dang computer......to finish my thought......
not just told but shown irrefutably then my weight loss would change. Most likely for the worse. Now if I were just told but refused to believe that it was a sugar pill then my weight loss would possibly suffer a little due to the introduction of doubt but it wouldn't drastically change.
It is the belief in the placebo not the placebo that works. Removing the ability to believe is what causes the result.
So yes people are willing to hand over anything for something they believe in, and if it works then why not? It doesn't harm them to spend money on something that helps them whether it has a foundation in science or myth. Now if they were not receiving benefit and paying money then that would be a bad thing, but so far everyone here who has spoken in favor of the Ayurvedic practices they are or have experienced personally have had positive results. No harm no foul.
I have spent thousands of dollars on drugs that have nearly killed me. Drugs professed by science to be beneficial for me. I trusted the physicians who prescribed them to me. I trusted the pharmacists who gave them to me. Their science said that the drugs would help me. In point of fact those drugs harmed me greatly. So since I spent money and was harmed should I demonize those drugs or those medical professionals or their science? I believed what they told me and I believed the drugs would help me. I have since learned to ask more questions and be more skeptical of medical science. This is why I am looking to Ayurveda for help instead of trusting the Dr.s now. I have become more educated about asking questions and seeking answers. This time those answers are directing me away from modern medicine. Next time maybe not. I haven't turned my back just my pain.
I can't even really respond to this.
1. You would not lose weight taking a placebo medication. That's not how losing weight works.
2. You do not understand how I am using the words "placebo effect".
3. Administration of a placebo drug in a clinical trial and then being told it's a placebo is not the same as experiencing the placebo effect in this case.
4. Regarding harm? http://whatstheharm.net/
5. Drugs that nearly killed you? For a different condition? What harm? I know some drugs do have side effects, I hope you reported them if they were so dire. Surely you didn't take them for your connective tissue disease since you refused the two treatments offered. What other conditions do you have? I have chronic severe migraines and three autoimmune diseases and CFS/fibromyalgia.
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^ You keep posting the link to whatstheharm.net and it seems you chose to ignore or did not see my rebuttal to that link on p.12? It is a fear mongering website, plain and simple. I can't even tell if the first story, claiming death and a lawsuit, is even true since both links for further information are bogus.
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mamapeach910 wrote: »
I can't even really respond to this.
1. You would not lose weight taking a placebo medication. That's not how losing weight works.
2. You do not understand how I am using the words "placebo effect".
3. Administration of a placebo drug in a clinical trial and then being told it's a placebo is not the same as experiencing the placebo effect in this case.
4. Regarding harm? http://whatstheharm.net/
5. Drugs that nearly killed you? For a different condition? What harm? I know some drugs do have side effects, I hope you reported them if they were so dire. Surely you didn't take them for your connective tissue disease since you refused the two treatments offered. What other conditions do you have? I have chronic severe migraines and three autoimmune diseases and CFS/fibromyalgia.
1. It was a hypothetical situation - over simplified to be easily understood. Seriously.........take a step back, breathe and stop taking things so hard core. Read the meaning not just the words.
2. How else would you use the term "placebo effect?" Using a non medical substance to achieve a medical effect through the recipient's belief that the substance will work as promised. You keep talking about people believing Ayurveda works without scientific proofs - only through the subject's belief that Ayurveda will work. How is that not "Placebo Effect?" Please help me understand your use if this is not it.
3. ?????
4. Even if following a path that brings relief from symptoms but doesn't cure the illness is ultimately fatal it isn't necessarily any more harmful than a scientific method that causes discomfort and other bodily damage, brings about some relief but doesn't ultimately cure the patient either. I.e. cancer treatments. Chemo and radiation harm the body while trying to cure the cancer. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't work. Either way the patient is miserable the whole time and the damage caused by the treatments can end up killing the patient even if the cancer is cured.
5. I was diagnosed with Bi-Polar when I was 22. One of the first drugs they put me on was Lithium. I turned out to be allergic to Lithium but it took the Dr's 3 months to figure that out. In the meantime my thyroid function nearly ceased, I went from being 125lbs to 250lbs, my kidneys began shutting down the stress the added weight and increasing girth placed on my spinal injury almost seperated my spine. When they replaced the Lithium with 2000mg of Depakote my body reacted with insatiable hunger for which I ended up on Topomax for its anorexic side effects. While on the Depakote I developed siezures. Apparently this can happen with some anti-siezure medications. Once I stopped taking the depakote the siezures stopped.
As for my health conditions: Bi-Polar PTSD; a Herniated and Degenerating Disk at L5/S1; Lethal Allergies to Lithium, Penicillin and Bread & Dairy Molds; Asthma and Mixed Connective Tissue Disease. The last presents so far with Chronic Severe Pain; a Heart Arhythmia; a Blood Condition where my Red Blood Cells Die Before Reaching Maturity; Arthritis in my Hands; Shoulders and Knees; Psorisis; Dry Skin; Hair Loss and TMJ.0 -
C. First let me ask why you say that Ayurveda rejects the scientific method?
Step 1: Ask a Question: Will eating a diet rich in vegetables and certain spices improve a person's overall general health?
Step 2: Do Background Research: Talk to local villagers and as many other people I can talk to about their health and diets.
Step 3: Construct a Hypothesis: A person who eats a diet rich in vegetables and specific spices will have overall better health than a person who does not.
Step 4: Test Your Hypothesis by Doing an Experiment: Convince some people in your village to follow your diet. Convince some people in your village to avoid foods in your diet. Leave the rest of the village to eat normally. Have them do this for a year and observe the results in reference to everyone's overall health. Do this in neighboring villages as well. Revisit the health of the participants 5, 10 and 20 years later also noting their dietary habits of the intervening years.
Step 5: Analyze Your Data and Draw a Conclusion: Comapare your results. Determine that those who ate the diet in question had improved overall health at the end of the first year. Determine that those individuals who continued to follow the diet continued to have overall better health that those who did not. Determine that those individuals who initially ate the diet but then reverted to their previous diet had decreased overall health after discontinuing the diet.
Step 6: Communicate Your Results: Tell everyone what you have discovered and encourage them to follow your diet. Have whole communities adopt your diet and continue to refer others to it.
Sounds pretty scientific to me . Yes I am basing this mostly on conjecture, especially the 5, 10 and 20 years following, but my knowledge of cultural development supports that this is the way that cultural practices concerning diet develop. A person or persons try a new food or food preparation then encourage other to try it. Some people try it, others refuse to even consider the notion and still others just don't pay any attention and keep on as they have been. Over time people begin to notice the results of trying the new foods and either adopt them into their diets or not. Things that prove to be beneficial to the eater get adopted more easily and more pervasively than those that don't. Since Ayurvedic diets have been adopted by literally millions of people and entire cultures have sprung up based on Ayurvetic practices it would be logical to deduce that it has merit. Things that are detrimental to humans, tend to fall out of favor over time - Ayurveda is actually growing.
D. You seem to think that Ayurveda has proven to be ineffective and that it doesn't concern itself about harming others. The first is ambiguous and the second in patently false.
Just because science has yet proven beyond question that Ayurvedic practices are effective they also haven't proven that it isn't. There haven't been enough studies. It is still up for consideration. But based on centuries of observable and anecdotal evidence it certainly seems to be effective for the vast majority of individuals who follow it. Again, if it didn't it would fall out of favor.
As to being concerned about harm, the whole basis of Ayurveda is to prevent harm from occurring - in the body, the mind, the spirit and the universe. So yes - Ayurveda's position is also "Do No Harm."
E. Apparently you judge Ayurvedics much more harshly and narrowly than current medical science. You refute Ayurvedics that work because they claim to balance the propeties of air in the individual instead of actually claiming the chemical reaction that produces the positive result in the body. Regardless of the rational behind why it works - it still works. Early western medicine claimed that invisible demons or creatures infested a person and caused illnesses. Strong herbs and physical practices were used by medical practitioners of the time to drive out these "demons." We have since learned that the illnesses are caused by microscopic ("invisible") bacteria, viruses and other organisms but we have also scientifically proven that many of the herbs used in those "superstitious" practices actually kill or drive out those organisms. By your logic this shouldn't be considered legitimate medicine either since those "medical" remedies were touted to drive out demons.
Scientific evidence of something's effectiveness does not remove it from the original system that used it, it only supports its use.
A website that discusses using medieval medicine in modern pharmacuticals is: www.scienceinschool.org/2013/issue27/monastic
C. Yes, what you described is science. It isn't Ayurvedic. Ayurvedic has a central theory that is patently false - it believes in a five elements are mixed to make up seven substances it identifies as the substances of the human body.
D. When Ayurvedic medicine has an issue with up to 20% of products found containing harmful levels of metals, yes it has issues with do no harm. Even without this, yes, until something is proven medically effective, using it and calling it a treatment is unethical.
"Just because science has yet proven beyond question that Ayurvedic practices are effective they also haven't proven that it isn't."
There is enough evidence that the central dogmas of Ayurvedic is false. Don't seriously be on the internet trying to tell me you believe in five elements making things work.
E. "Regardless of the rational behind why it works - it still works. "
Science is not purely blind empiricism. It does actually have a requirement to create theories that generate testable claims. Also, placebo also works, that isn't a merit.
"By your logic this shouldn't be considered legitimate medicine either since those "medical" remedies were touted to drive out demons. "
No, that's a complete straw man of my position. If you told me that penicillin works because it drives out evil spirits, that would be false and not science, even if the penicillin itself treated an illness effectively. You're confusing discovery with explanation. I'm not saying ayurvedic herbs stop being effective because they're ayurvedic (if they actually are shown), I'm saying they stop being ayurvedic because ayurvedic fails to actually explain why they work. If you disagree, then fine, you have to accept my theory: there is no gravity. You're held to the earth by earth element magnetism. Everything that stays on the earth has this element. You can't deny it because I can show, things don't spontaneously float away from the earth.0 -
In This Thread
A bunch of people that think science is just a collection of facts and not an actual methodology of discovering truth.-1 -
Saying it is a fearmongering website or that the owner has a bias isn't proof against anything actually documented by the site. That is an ad hominem. Facts don't change because of who is stating them - they're either correct on their own, or they are not.^ You keep posting the link to whatstheharm.net and it seems you chose to ignore or did not see my rebuttal to that link on p.12? It is a fear mongering website, plain and simple. I can't even tell if the first story, claiming death and a lawsuit, is even true since both links for further information are bogus.0 -
Whatstheharm is not a fear-mongering site. I know the person who maintains it.
He says:
"This site is designed to make a point about the danger of not thinking critically. Namely that you can easily be injured or killed by neglecting this important skill. We have collected the stories of over 670,000 people who have been injured or killed as a result of someone not thinking critically.
"We do this not to make light of their plight. Quite the opposite. We want to honor their memory and learn from their stories."
I think this thread is doing a good job at teaching critical thinking, if only people were open to learning.
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mamapeach910 wrote: »
I can't even really respond to this.
1. You would not lose weight taking a placebo medication. That's not how losing weight works.
2. You do not understand how I am using the words "placebo effect".
3. Administration of a placebo drug in a clinical trial and then being told it's a placebo is not the same as experiencing the placebo effect in this case.
4. Regarding harm? http://whatstheharm.net/
5. Drugs that nearly killed you? For a different condition? What harm? I know some drugs do have side effects, I hope you reported them if they were so dire. Surely you didn't take them for your connective tissue disease since you refused the two treatments offered. What other conditions do you have? I have chronic severe migraines and three autoimmune diseases and CFS/fibromyalgia.
1. It was a hypothetical situation - over simplified to be easily understood. Seriously.........take a step back, breathe and stop taking things so hard core. Read the meaning not just the words.
The "meaning" isn't applicable. That was the point. You wouldn't drop weight then regain it because the only way to lose weight is through a caloric deficit. Pills don't make you lose weight. Belief in a pill doesn't make you lose weight.
[3. How else would you use the term "placebo effect?" Using a non medical substance to achieve a medical effect through the recipient's belief that the substance will work as promised. You keep talking about people believing Ayurveda works without scientific proofs - only through the subject's belief that Ayurveda will work. How is that not "Placebo Effect?" Please help me understand your use if this is not it.
That is not how YOU are using it though. Being told about the placebo effect DOES not erase faith as you assert. Depending on the person, they can either be okay that their faith is part and parcel of the process or they might dismiss the cynic out of hand. I think you're doing the latter.
I'll give you a silly example. When my son was six, his cousin told him there was no Santa. Now, my husband and I never explicitly told either of our children about Santa Claus. Our daughter never believed in him. Our son did. When his cousin told him there was no Santa? He didn't believe him... because he WANTED to believe. That's how the psychology of faith works. When he was older and ready not to believe, he asked me "There really no Santa, right?" And I confirmed.4. ?????
You asked what harm could come from pursuing alternative therapy and clinging to belief in the absence of evidence. Have a look through that web site.5. Even if following a path that brings relief from symptoms but doesn't cure the illness is ultimately fatal it isn't necessarily any more harmful than a scientific method that causes discomfort and other bodily damage, brings about some relief but doesn't ultimately cure the patient either. I.e. cancer treatments. Chemo and radiation harm the body while trying to cure the cancer. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't work. Either way the patient is miserable the whole time and the damage caused by the treatments can end up killing the patient even if the cancer is cured.
Chemo is voluntary, no patient goes through it without consent. This is a straw man argument. My late father in law faced cancer twice. The first time, he did chemo. The second time, he chose not to, knowing what the prognosis would be.
Your argument that the chemo would kill the patient is ridiculous... the cancer will kill them anyway. (well, most forms of cancer)6. I was diagnosed with Bi-Polar when I was 22. One of the first drugs they put me on was Lithium. I turned out to be allergic to Lithium but it took the Dr's 3 months to figure that out. In the meantime my thyroid function nearly ceased, I went from being 125lbs to 250lbs, my kidneys began shutting down the stress the added weight and increasing girth placed on my spinal injury almost seperated my spine. When they replaced the Lithium with 2000mg of Depakote my body reacted with insatiable hunger for which I ended up on Topomax for its anorexic side effects. While on the Depakote I developed siezures. Apparently this can happen with some anti-siezure medications. Once I stopped taking the depakote the siezures stopped.
As for my health conditions: Bi-Polar PTSD; a Herniated and Degenerating Disk at L5/S1; Lethal Allergies to Lithium, Penicillin and Bread & Dairy Molds; Asthma and Mixed Connective Tissue Disease. The last presents so far with Chronic Severe Pain; a Heart Arhythmia; a Blood Condition where my Red Blood Cells Die Before Reaching Maturity; Arthritis in my Hands; Shoulders and Knees; Psorisis; Dry Skin; Hair Loss and TMJ.
How long did it take you to go from 125 to 250? Because though your metabolism was slowed, your body needed the calories to do that. And you were the one eating them. Now I know you mentioned appetite issues, did you take measures to mitigate the weight gain by eating lower calorie foods?
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There is a now-closed thread that mentioned life-force in foods. I thought I'd bring that topic here. (Prana = life force.)
FOOD WITH PRANA: 12 principles of Ayurvedic food
Your body is a vehicle. Life has manifested itself through this vehicle. And to live your life to its fullest potential it’s vital that this vehicle is kept in its best condition through proper nourishment.
Your relation to food is an indicator of your relation to other aspects of your life. What you put in your body has a direct effect not only on your body but also on your mind and soul—on how you lead your life. If your food is full of Prana, life force, it will give you the ability to live your life to your fullest potential. Food that is pure, full of Prana and prepared with love, meditation and good healing vibrations gives you much more than just the feeling of satisfaction to the taste buds. It nourishes your body, mind, senses and soul while increasing physical energy, positive thinking, creativity, longevity and heightened awareness of life in all its beauty. It brings you closer to the Divine state.
The twelve principles of vapika meals
Sattvic food – Food that is primarily whole foods, plant based, lightly spiced, using no oil so that you feel refreshed and charged.
Read more: http://www.themindfulword.org/2013/ayurvedic-food-principles/
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Chock full of prana:
Not so much:
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Food is full of ... life force.
Let's see. Food is full of all sorts of things. Macro and micronutrients. These can be quantifiably assessed.
Life force? How does one measure that? How does one tell one food has it vs. one that doesn't? If I baked a cake with love and mindfulness out of organic ingredients, would it have life force?
And... eating foods bring you closer ... to a "divine state". What exactly is that? Where does it exist?0 -
Life force more or less means foods with heat sensitive enzymes.kshama2001 wrote: »Chock full of prana:
People that eat food with raw enzymes that haven't been heated higher than 116 degrees F for approx. 70% of their diet and above seem not to age as fast as others.
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TheDevastator wrote: »
Life force more or less means foods with heat sensitive enzymes.kshama2001 wrote: »Chock full of prana:
People that eat food with raw enzymes that haven't been heated higher than 116 degrees F for approx. 70% of their diet and above seem not to age as fast as others.
Yeah, pretty sure that if you look at pictures from "the good old days" back before there was all the boxed stuff? People were aging more quickly back then.
Advances in medical care and more leisure time have slowed down the clock for a great many people.
Of course, the greatest determining factor is genetics.
We've gone so far beyond the Woobicon now.
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People from "the good old days" ate a lot of cooked food and didn't have grocery stores stocked full of produce all year long but even then there were ones that would try to eat mostly uncooked fruits and vegetables.mamapeach910 wrote: »TheDevastator wrote: »
Life force more or less means foods with heat sensitive enzymes.kshama2001 wrote: »Chock full of prana:
People that eat food with raw enzymes that haven't been heated higher than 116 degrees F for approx. 70% of their diet and above seem not to age as fast as others.
Yeah, pretty sure that if you look at pictures from "the good old days" back before there was all the boxed stuff? People were aging more quickly back then.
Advances in medical care and more leisure time have slowed down the clock for a great many people.
Of course, the greatest determining factor is genetics.
We've gone so far beyond the Woobicon now.
What you eat, how much you eat and how much you exercise is more important that your genetics.
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mamapeach910 wrote: »Food is full of ... life force.
Let's see. Food is full of all sorts of things. Macro and micronutrients. These can be quantifiably assessed.
Life force? How does one measure that? How does one tell one food has it vs. one that doesn't? If I baked a cake with love and mindfulness out of organic ingredients, would it have life force?
And... eating foods bring you closer ... to a "divine state". What exactly is that? Where does it exist?
Midichlorians, duh!
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TheDevastator wrote: »
People from "the good old days" ate a lot of cooked food and didn't have grocery stores stocked full of produce all year long but even then there were ones that would try to eat mostly uncooked fruits and vegetables.mamapeach910 wrote: »TheDevastator wrote: »
Life force more or less means foods with heat sensitive enzymes.kshama2001 wrote: »Chock full of prana:
People that eat food with raw enzymes that haven't been heated higher than 116 degrees F for approx. 70% of their diet and above seem not to age as fast as others.
Yeah, pretty sure that if you look at pictures from "the good old days" back before there was all the boxed stuff? People were aging more quickly back then.
Advances in medical care and more leisure time have slowed down the clock for a great many people.
Of course, the greatest determining factor is genetics.
We've gone so far beyond the Woobicon now.
What you eat, how much you eat and how much you exercise is more important that your genetics.
Sure. Have you looked at my profile? If you haven't (no peeking, my age is on there), guess how hold I am.
I like how the ante has been upped to raw food now. I'm not sure that's part of ayurveda.
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Nony_Mouse wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »Food is full of ... life force.
Let's see. Food is full of all sorts of things. Macro and micronutrients. These can be quantifiably assessed.
Life force? How does one measure that? How does one tell one food has it vs. one that doesn't? If I baked a cake with love and mindfulness out of organic ingredients, would it have life force?
And... eating foods bring you closer ... to a "divine state". What exactly is that? Where does it exist?
Midichlorians, duh!
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UltimateRBF wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »There is a now-closed thread that mentioned life-force in foods. I thought I'd bring that topic here. (Prana = life force.)
FOOD WITH PRANA: 12 principles of Ayurvedic food
Your body is a vehicle. Life has manifested itself through this vehicle. And to live your life to its fullest potential it’s vital that this vehicle is kept in its best condition through proper nourishment.
Your relation to food is an indicator of your relation to other aspects of your life. What you put in your body has a direct effect not only on your body but also on your mind and soul—on how you lead your life. If your food is full of Prana, life force, it will give you the ability to live your life to your fullest potential. Food that is pure, full of Prana and prepared with love, meditation and good healing vibrations gives you much more than just the feeling of satisfaction to the taste buds. It nourishes your body, mind, senses and soul while increasing physical energy, positive thinking, creativity, longevity and heightened awareness of life in all its beauty. It brings you closer to the Divine state.
The twelve principles of vapika meals
Sattvic food – Food that is primarily whole foods, plant based, lightly spiced, using no oil so that you feel refreshed and charged.
Read more: http://www.themindfulword.org/2013/ayurvedic-food-principles/
Life force in foods? Good healing vibrations? This cannot be real. It's 2015 FFS
Are we being punked?
Would you like to buy the world a Coke?
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