Ayurvedic nutrition for weight loss (and general sanity)
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margaretlb4 wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »
Mama, you have the patience of a saint to still be involved in this thread. The woo, it burns...
Hey, I'd love it if you could respond to what is being discussed here (maybe my post directly above yours) instead of insulting us on this thread? This is the tone I'm talking about - condescension.
If a system of treatment based on astronomy works at all, it is purely by accident.
Determining the value or truth of a practice based on its age is horrifying. Infanticide is a very ancient practice, does that mean it's a better practice than more modern ones such as taking prenatal vitamins or, you know, just not leaving babies in the wilderness to die? Poor logic is illogical.
Poor logic? Funny, your post has too many logical fallacies to list. Let's see: Red Herring, false analogy, appeal to fear, appeal to ridicule, appeal to motive, chronological snobbery, and straw man.0 -
You know the placebo effect I mentioned for dogs is placebo effect in general, right? You seem to acting like I'm saying the placebo effect is specific to an herb that I don't even recall the person saying a specific one.No, you didn't mention a study before or link to any, so I inquired for more information to back up your claim. I had been wondering about the placebo effect in dogs, newborns, horses, etc... So thanks, I'm always learning.
Also, no. It still seems like you believe that herbs only work by placebo effect. Or else, I don't know what your point in even bringing it up was. Your argument this entire thread has been based on unwarranted assumptions. You don't even understand Aryuveda well enough to use the proper vocabulary to describe its methodology.
I don't know if the herb works beyond placebo effect or not. Neither does the person taking it. No one can know unless the particular herb is clinically studied versus the effect of a placebo. What I do, most definitively know, is that the reasoning used to prescribe it is invariably wrong. The central dogma of Ayurvedia is wrong, we don't operate on 5 elements that cause only 7 types of tissues in the human body to mix in certain quantities.
As far as if I understand Aryuvedic medicine and its vocabulary: by that standard, you don't know me well enough to level any criticism at anything I say, so you're wrong! See how that works? I know the basis of it is false. That's enough. Even if it accidentally produced results for someone, it is still unethical to provide someone with a medical treatment that works correctly but does so for the wrong reasons.
Wow, which skeptic forum is the portal to omniscience? You are certain without a shadow of a doubt. That's just...wow.
Okay, let's say I told you that somewhere in orbit between Earth and the moon there is a rock 16" in diameter with two dents in it. It is too small to see with a telescope. Does the rock exist?
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I won't tolerate the suggestion that an Aryuvedic ritual is on par with treatments that have undergone scientific rigor, no matter how long they have been practiced.
If it does no harm, meh. Just don't make any special claims.0 -
@jgnatca from page 7:Just wondering, if all this 5000 year old "ancient wisdom" was effective and worked, why did we need to advance to western science based medicine? I mean why bother if we already had something that worked? And why is it that life spans didn't increase until science based medicine? Why not just stick with acupuncture, ayurvedic, blood letting and leaches? Honestly curious.
This is a good question. Let's start by saying: An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. When looking at average lifespans, you need to take into consideration that infant mortality is factored in there, so people did not just drop dead at 35. Infant mortality rates dropped because Western Allopathic medicine is wonderful. Antibiotics have saved many lives, as have vaccinations. Allopathic medicine is second to none when it comes to acute situations. With that said, it is not perfect. Pharmaceuticals come with many side effects, many of which are worse than the problem they are trying to treat. For many chronic conditions, there is no cure in allopathy. Patients are often given a vague diagnosis like IBS when the problem is something more serious or sometimes told their symptoms are all in their head. Alternative therapies offer a different perspective on the human body and are grounded in science and steeped in tradition. The herbs used are especially powerful for prevention. A skilled practitioner can identify a problem before it becomes a pathology and counsel the client on nutrition, lifestyle, and herbs. It's not a path for those who just want a quick fix or magic bullet. There is no such thing and they may need to wait a long time for allopathic medicine to cure their chronic condition or find a vaccine. Healing takes work. You don't see an aryuvedic doctor for a broken leg. You see them if you've been having symptoms that haven't been resolved by allopathic medicine or if you don't want to take pharmaceuticals for whatever reason, or you just want preventative care. It is an ancient healing modality, but is by no means static. It evolves and advances just as allopathy does; practitioners keep up to date on scientific studies.0 -
mamapeach910 wrote: »
Mama, you have the patience of a saint to still be involved in this thread. The woo, it burns...
Nah, I'm out. A certain poster won't answer a basic question, appeals to logic when it suits her but doesn't use it in the flow of the conversation, moves goal posts, drops non sequiturs to deflect, and to be honest? The OP isn't using all out woo-woo, she's just eating some recipes with some herbs and spices in them. Meh.
I drink an herbal tea when my throat's sore (great stuff, it's called Throat Coat).
This post isn't a debate, it's a train wreck. Debates follow point and counter point. When your opponent drops repeated non sequiturs rather than countering your points? You're just spinning your wheels. I've got better things to do with my time.
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First extraordinary claim that demands proof. Just a year ago I suffered from some of the most common chronic conditions in the western world including obesity, diabetes type 2, high blood pressure, and high cholesterol. All are now resolved using conventional treatment.For many chronic conditions, there is no cure in allopathy.0 -
Hubby suffers from two others; glaucoma and low thyroid. I used to moan that at least we could have coordinated our chronic health conditions so we could share medications, but noooo.
I would not trust anything other than synthroid to treat low thyroid.
I would not dare try a traditional treatment for glaucoma. The consequences of poor judgement is blindness!0 -
Oh, in for this, for reasons...For many chronic conditions, there is no cure in allopathy
Yes, that's true. I suffer from 4 of them. I'm on treatments to alleviate their symptoms, but I'll never be rid of them. That's what chronic means.
Do tell which chronic condition current medicine can't cure that ayurveda can.
I await your typical non-response.0 -
Hubby suffers from two others; glaucoma and low thyroid. I used to moan that at least we could have coordinated our chronic health conditions so we could share medications, but noooo.
I would not trust anything other than synthroid to treat low thyroid.
I would not dare try a traditional treatment for glaucoma. The consequences of poor judgement is blindness!
I see from time to time people who want to try to treat their low thyroid through diet. The amount of veggies, some of which are my favorite like broccoli, that I would have to give up would be staggering on top of everything else. I don't consider the fact that I'll be on a med for the rest of my life because of hypothyroidism a personal failing, though, so I think that helps.
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You know the placebo effect I mentioned for dogs is placebo effect in general, right? You seem to acting like I'm saying the placebo effect is specific to an herb that I don't even recall the person saying a specific one.No, you didn't mention a study before or link to any, so I inquired for more information to back up your claim. I had been wondering about the placebo effect in dogs, newborns, horses, etc... So thanks, I'm always learning.
Also, no. It still seems like you believe that herbs only work by placebo effect. Or else, I don't know what your point in even bringing it up was. Your argument this entire thread has been based on unwarranted assumptions. You don't even understand Aryuveda well enough to use the proper vocabulary to describe its methodology.
I don't know if the herb works beyond placebo effect or not. Neither does the person taking it. No one can know unless the particular herb is clinically studied versus the effect of a placebo. What I do, most definitively know, is that the reasoning used to prescribe it is invariably wrong. The central dogma of Ayurvedia is wrong, we don't operate on 5 elements that cause only 7 types of tissues in the human body to mix in certain quantities.
As far as if I understand Aryuvedic medicine and its vocabulary: by that standard, you don't know me well enough to level any criticism at anything I say, so you're wrong! See how that works? I know the basis of it is false. That's enough. Even if it accidentally produced results for someone, it is still unethical to provide someone with a medical treatment that works correctly but does so for the wrong reasons.
Wow, which skeptic forum is the portal to omniscience? You are certain without a shadow of a doubt. That's just...wow.
Okay, let's say I told you that somewhere in orbit between Earth and the moon there is a rock 16" in diameter with two dents in it. It is too small to see with a telescope. Does the rock exist?
I don't need omnscience to prove something false, only to completely prove something real. That's a limit of rational empiricism. I can definitively say, my body is not filled with fire elements and earth elements. Trying to inverse me with Russel's teapot don't float.
Tell me what predictions the rock's existence make, and I'll tell you how to test if it exists or not. Ayurvedic's central theory fails to have predictive and explanatory power, therefore, it is false.0 -
Hubby suffers from two others; glaucoma and low thyroid. I used to moan that at least we could have coordinated our chronic health conditions so we could share medications, but noooo.
I would not trust anything other than synthroid to treat low thyroid.
I would not dare try a traditional treatment for glaucoma. The consequences of poor judgement is blindness!
Just FYI... a lot of thyroid patients do better on liothyronine rather than synthroid.0 -
mamapeach910 wrote: »Oh, in for this, for reasons...For many chronic conditions, there is no cure in allopathy
Yes, that's true. I suffer from 4 of them. I'm on treatments to alleviate their symptoms, but I'll never be rid of them. That's what chronic means.
Do tell which chronic condition current medicine can't cure that ayurveda can.
I await your typical non-response.
Incorrect. A condition is labeled chronic when one suffers with it for eight weeks or more, not that there is no cure.
I'm headed out for dinner, so I can't get to your flame bait now.0 -
http://cmcd.sph.umich.edu/what-is-chronic-disease.html
Agrees with Mamapeach, and I always agree with University of Michigan, but I'm biased.0 -
Chrysalid2014 wrote: »Hubby suffers from two others; glaucoma and low thyroid. I used to moan that at least we could have coordinated our chronic health conditions so we could share medications, but noooo.
I would not trust anything other than synthroid to treat low thyroid.
I would not dare try a traditional treatment for glaucoma. The consequences of poor judgement is blindness!
Just FYI... a lot of thyroid patients do better on liothyronine rather than synthroid.
Hmmm... taking it alone is dicey. It's hard to monitor because of its quick absorption rate, and it's very easy for it to cross the line from helping hypothyroidism into creating hyperthyroidism. It's usually prescribed together with levothyroxine.
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@Chrysalid2014 , thanks for that. I see that liothyronine is just as synthetic as synthroid, so I am reassured. Hubby's thyroid levels are fine now, so we'll let sleeping lions lay.
I see @miriamtob continues to tithe the mint and the cummin.0 -
mamapeach910 wrote: »Oh, in for this, for reasons...For many chronic conditions, there is no cure in allopathy
Yes, that's true. I suffer from 4 of them. I'm on treatments to alleviate their symptoms, but I'll never be rid of them. That's what chronic means.
Do tell which chronic condition current medicine can't cure that ayurveda can.
I await your typical non-response.
Incorrect. A condition is labeled chronic when one suffers with it for eight weeks or more, not that there is no cure.
I'm headed out for dinner, so I can't get to your flame bait now.
Wasn't a flame bait. Nice try. Please answer the question. You keep making claims you won't back up.
As to chronic? I'll quote part of senecarr's link for you.Chronic Disease is a long-lasting condition that can be controlled but not cured. Chronic illness affects the population worldwide. As described by the Centers for Disease Control, chronic disease is the leading cause of death and disability in the United States. It accounts for 70% of all deaths in the U.S., which is 1.7 million each year. Data from the World Health Organization show that chronic disease is also the major cause of premature death around the world even in places where infectious disease are rampant. Although chronic diseases are among the most common and costly health problems, they are also among the most preventable and most can be effectively controlled.
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First extraordinary claim that demands proof. Just a year ago I suffered from some of the most common chronic conditions in the western world including obesity, diabetes type 2, high blood pressure, and high cholesterol. All are now resolved using conventional treatment.For many chronic conditions, there is no cure in allopathy.
Yay, Science! I'm happy for you.
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@Chrysalid2014 , thanks for that. I see that liothyronine is just as synthetic as synthroid, so I am reassured. Hubby's thyroid levels are fine now, so we'll let sleeping lions lay.
I see @miriamtob continues to tithe the mint and the cummin.
That is the classiest way I've ever seen someone call a spade a spade on the forums.
Well played.
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mamapeach910 wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »Oh, in for this, for reasons...For many chronic conditions, there is no cure in allopathy
Yes, that's true. I suffer from 4 of them. I'm on treatments to alleviate their symptoms, but I'll never be rid of them. That's what chronic means.
Do tell which chronic condition current medicine can't cure that ayurveda can.
I await your typical non-response.
Incorrect. A condition is labeled chronic when one suffers with it for eight weeks or more, not that there is no cure.
I'm headed out for dinner, so I can't get to your flame bait now.
Wasn't a flame bait. Nice try. Please answer the question. You keep making claims you won't back up.
As to chronic? I'll quote part of senecarr's link for you.Chronic Disease is a long-lasting condition that can be controlled but not cured. Chronic illness affects the population worldwide. As described by the Centers for Disease Control, chronic disease is the leading cause of death and disability in the United States. It accounts for 70% of all deaths in the U.S., which is 1.7 million each year. Data from the World Health Organization show that chronic disease is also the major cause of premature death around the world even in places where infectious disease are rampant. Although chronic diseases are among the most common and costly health problems, they are also among the most preventable and most can be effectively controlled.
Re: Aryuveda and Chronic disease
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3149400/#!po=91.9355
Chronic diseases can be controlled, but not cured. Fine. I was diagnosed with chronic sinusitis. I got it under control with an herbal protocol, which involved an herbal infusion and tincture formula, which I took for about a week. Now whenever I feel my sinuses acting up, I only need a ~1/2 teaspoon of the tincture and it is under control. I was considering myself cured.0 -
The skeptics here are pointing out the Emperor has no clothes, while the believer is wanting us all to debate the thread-count of the suit's pocket lining.0
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When the underlying cause of chronic dis-ease is truly mitigated, the symptoms are sent into remission and the treatment has little to no side-effects, as many root causes can be addressed purely with diet and lifestyle changes. Herbs can gently or powerfully help things along. Doctors are not taught in medical school how to give herbs in the proper dosage, context, or preparation. A very few have herbalist training, so they refer to an herbalist who takes a holistic approach to healing and the tradition of herbal healing encompasses the whole person. The modality is closely in line with modern physiologic science, who's basis is in describing what brings the body to homeostasis (i.e. balance, harmony, etc...). Understanding fluid compartments and tissue states exists in both modern physiology and CAM modalities, such as Aryuveda.0
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So ayurveda doesn't cure, just puts chronic conditions in remission. Same as regular medicine. Thing is a lot of chronic conditions cycle between flare and remission cycles anyway. All on their own.0
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Homeostasis isn't about balance or harmony, that's ascribing teleological reasoning to an evolutionary system. That's another reason a heck of a lot of alternative medicine is a philosophical failure - it starts with a false basis for how the body operates. Bodies do not have harmony - they have not capacity for intent.The modality is closely in line with modern physiologic science, who's basis is in describing what brings the body to homeostasis (i.e. balance, harmony, etc...). Understanding fluid compartments and tissue states exists in both modern physiology and CAM modalities, such as Aryuveda.
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Great article. And see, even doctors describe the body as being out of homeostasis, harmony, balance, equilibrium, etc...all the time!
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ams2.17/abstract
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An online published article. Funny. Find a peer reviewed study and you might have a point.0
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It's from an international peer reviewed journal: journal of acute medicine and surgery.0
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Can you find me a reputable peer reviewed article in a high impact journal using harmony to describe bodily processes?Great article. And see, even doctors describe the body as being out of homeostasis, harmony, balance, equilibrium, etc...all the time!
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ams2.17/abstract
Harmony is a human concept, not one nature looks for. I believe I recall even seeing biologist want to move away from homeostasis being used so much because it gives lay people the idea things get to a static equilibrium that they stay at.0 -
Can you find me a reputable peer reviewed article in a high impact journal using harmony to describe bodily processes?Great article. And see, even doctors describe the body as being out of homeostasis, harmony, balance, equilibrium, etc...all the time!
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ams2.17/abstract
Harmony is a human concept, not one nature looks for. I believe I recall even seeing biologist want to move away from homeostasis being used so much because it gives lay people the idea things get to a static equilibrium that they stay at.
if you look at author info it says harvard medical school? sounds reputable.
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Can you find me a reputable peer reviewed article in a high impact journal using harmony to describe bodily processes?Great article. And see, even doctors describe the body as being out of homeostasis, harmony, balance, equilibrium, etc...all the time!
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ams2.17/abstract
Harmony is a human concept, not one nature looks for. I believe I recall even seeing biologist want to move away from homeostasis being used so much because it gives lay people the idea things get to a static equilibrium that they stay at.
I looked it up. It is peer reviewed, but it seems to be limited to a Japanese Association. It's definitely not a high impact journal, for sure.
There might be some cultural issues involved with using words like harmony, or translation issues going on.
Also, if you parse the grammar of the title of the article, it's not using harmony to describe the state of the body, but rather using harmony to describe the state of the body's homeostasis as opposed to a state of homeostatic "discordance".
I think we've got a language barrier thing happening here. Nothing more.
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mamapeach910 wrote: »
Can you find me a reputable peer reviewed article in a high impact journal using harmony to describe bodily processes?Great article. And see, even doctors describe the body as being out of homeostasis, harmony, balance, equilibrium, etc...all the time!
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ams2.17/abstract
Harmony is a human concept, not one nature looks for. I believe I recall even seeing biologist want to move away from homeostasis being used so much because it gives lay people the idea things get to a static equilibrium that they stay at.
I looked it up. It is peer reviewed, but it seems to be limited to a Japanese Association. It's definitely not a high impact journal, for sure.
There might be some cultural issues involved with using words like harmony, or translation issues going on.
Also, if you parse the grammar of the title of the article, it's not using harmony to describe the state of the body, but rather using harmony to describe the state of the body's homeostasis as opposed to a state of homeostatic "discordance".
I think we've got a language barrier thing happening here. Nothing more.
i dunno. James Lederer doesn't sound like a Japanese name.0
This discussion has been closed.
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