Keto--what are your thoughts?
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stevencloser wrote: »You're losing fat.
Both cases.
AFAIK in the first case you simply stop.
And if not, you will produce glucose from your own proteins.Gianfranco_R wrote: »
Off course.
I cited two different cases.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »You're losing fat.
Both cases.
AFAIK in the first case you simply stop.
And if not, you will produce glucose from your own proteins.Gianfranco_R wrote: »
Off course.
I cited two different cases.
You didn't cite any cases. You made up two examples and made a lot of assumptions on how your body would utilize that as fuel. Cited cases means = scientific studies.
And if anything you said was remotely true, why aren't there any cases that demonstrate Keto's ability to a more effect long term weight/fat loss strategy?
Do you actually have any studies that justify your position?
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And if anything you said was remotely true, why aren't there any cases that demonstrate Keto's ability to a more effect long term weight/fat loss strategy?
Because there aren't studies that consider keto as a long-term diet.Do you actually have any studies that justify your position?
Simply consider what happens in a one-month starving, thanks to ketosis.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »You're losing fat.
Both cases.
AFAIK in the first case you simply stop.
And if not, you will produce glucose from your own proteins.
Gianfranco_R wrote: »
Off course.
I cited two different cases.
That's gluconeogenesis. That happens when you're in keto, you know.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »That's gluconeogenesis. That happens when you're in keto, you know.
No. In keto you produce ketones (not glucose) from fats for the energy needs of muscles (and 70% of brains). You use gluconeogenesis (in case you don't eat carbs) only for the production of the necessary glucose (for the 30% of remaining energy of brains and for the energy of other systems, that relies only on glucose).
And ketones are produced from fats, not from proteins (again, there IS a limited quantity of proteins needed by the process, but are irrelevant in the considered equation).0 -
stevencloser wrote: »You're losing fat.
Both cases.
AFAIK in the first case you simply stop.
And if not, you will produce glucose from your own proteins.Gianfranco_R wrote: »
Off course.
I cited two different cases.
And your body CAN NOT just stop losing fat. Any glycogen that is used and gets replaced is calories from carbs you don't have available anymore.
If your body uses 500 calories of glycogen and refills those with carbs you've eaten, that's 500 calories "used".
That means your deficit is still the same and needs to be filled with your body stores.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »That's gluconeogenesis. That happens when you're in keto, you know.
No. In keto you produce ketones (not glucose) from fats for the energy needs of muscles (and 70% of brains). You use gluconeogenesis (in case you don't eat carbs) only for the production of the necessary glucose (for the 30% of remaining energy of brains and for the energy of other systems, that relies only on glucose).
And ketones are produced from fats, not from proteins (again, there IS a limited quantity of proteins needed by the process, but are irrelevant in the considered equation).
Your brain needs more glucose than you're eating in a ketogenic diet. Your body does gluconeogenesis to get those.
Your body does NOT do gluconeogenesis if you're eating plenty of carbs.0 -
And if anything you said was remotely true, why aren't there any cases that demonstrate Keto's ability to a more effect long term weight/fat loss strategy?
Because there aren't studies that consider keto as a long-term diet.Do you actually have any studies that justify your position?
Simply consider what happens in a one-month starving, thanks to ketosis.
So essentially, you are just making stuff up and making wild assumptions?
And your body will get energy from either carbs or fat. Both of which your body will constantly use all day. It's not a one or other. So during exercise, you might burn glycogen, but during rest, your body fat. In keto, you burn body fat or dietary fat. So it's not a magical body fat burner like you can on saying.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »Your brain needs more glucose than you're eating in a ketogenic diet. Your body does gluconeogenesis to get those.
Your body does NOT do gluconeogenesis if you're eating plenty of carbs.
Did I say plenty?
Again: your brain needs only 30% of glucose
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3219306/
If you eat enough carbs (but not plenty), you body will not use gluconeogenesis to produce the necessary glucose.
In any case, an intelligent keto will provide sufficient proteins also for this evenience.0 -
I am completely lost as to what even your point is at this point.0
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Ok, nevermind.0
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I agree. I thought the two debates we were having were: 1. Keto keeps you full longer (which @yarwell addressed that one, and 2. Keto is designed to maintain lean body mass (which was already @galehawkins link addressed that one). Both assertions, where proved to be wrong.stevencloser wrote: »I am completely lost as to what even your point is at this point.
I am not really sure how we got on the debate about energy systems.
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Do whatever helps you comply
The bolded is the significant part. The diet, IMO is over-emphasized...stevencloser wrote: »
It depends on how the people involved in the study were training. You cannot have the same amount of energy for sport ... So, if you are in a non ketogenic hypocalric diet and your energy expense is greater than your daily food intake, you will get energy from protein catabolism. If you are in ketosis, you will get energy from fat catabolism.
The diet is a tool, off course.
I choose keto for a simple reason: I had a lot of energy stored as fat and I was looking for a way to use it as the main source of energy.
Converting fat in ketones is the only way to do that, AFAIK.
Any diet is a tool. Again, IMO the diets are over-emphasized and the training under-emphasized.
Keto is not the only way to burn body fat...
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I agree. I thought the two debates we were having were: 1. Keto keeps you full longer (which @yarwell addressed that one, and 2. Keto is designed to maintain lean body mass (which was already @galehawkins link addressed that one). Both assertions, where proved to be wrong.stevencloser wrote: »I am completely lost as to what even your point is at this point.
I am not really sure how we got on the debate about energy systems.
I think he's arguing that you run on fat if keto and can't burn fat for energy if not keto (which is false). So because of this someone doing keto can consistently eat at an extreme deficit and yet do well with intense exercise without risking muscle (which I also believe is false).0 -
Um, no. When in a calorie deficit the body burns fat to make up the difference. Protein catabolism is a rather complex, difficult process, so the body doesn't go to that until it needs to, which is either when the body doesn't have enough stored fat to support the deficit, when the body has burned all the fat it is capable of in a given time period, or there is insufficient glucose intake to maintain organ function.stevencloser wrote: »
It depends on how the people involved in the study were training. You cannot have the same amount of energy for sport ... So, if you are in a non ketogenic hypocalric diet and your energy expense is greater than your daily food intake, you will get energy from protein catabolism. If you are in ketosis, you will get energy from fat catabolism.0 -
No. If you are taking in adequate protein and resistance training your body will not break down muscle for energy...So, if you are in a non ketogenic hypocalric diet and your energy expense is greater than your daily food intake, you will get energy from protein catabolism. If you are in ketosis, you will get energy from fat catabolism.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »I think he's arguing that you run on fat if keto and can't burn fat for energy if not keto (which is false).
I know that everyone can burn fat for energy.
But there doesn't exist a body that can use 100% of fatty acids directly as energy during training.
Depending on intensity, you burn more glucose or fat. The more you activity is intense, then the mixture of glucose and fat that you are using shifts to carbohydrates.
Ketosis allows using ketone bodies (previously produced from fat) instead of carbohydrates. So the mixture you use in ketosis is always fat + ketones.
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stevencloser wrote: »If we mean the same one, where in the study does it say the women didn't lose any fat?
In the supplementary data tables they break out the genders. The fat loss by DEXA in women was not statistically significant. The filename is called mmc2 or mmc3 from memory.
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I agree. I thought the two debates we were having were: 1. Keto keeps you full longer (which @yarwell addressed that one, and 2. Keto is designed to maintain lean body mass (which was already @galehawkins link addressed that one). Both assertions, where proved to be wrong.stevencloser wrote: »I am completely lost as to what even your point is at this point.
Proved wrong - LOL. How do you work that out then ? By an apocryphal tale of people not on keto diets. Yeah, right.
Another bunch of low carb cheats managed to sneak into a study and eat less at http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/87/1/44.full - conclusion of 4 week periods "Conclusion: In the short term, high-protein, low-carbohydrate ketogenic diets reduce hunger and lower food intake significantly more than do high-protein, medium-carbohydrate nonketogenic diets."
Here's the calorie intake, it's a crossover study. Ad-lib eating in a residential setting. Even when they tried to force the same number of calories the low carb period resulted in lower consumption:
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The body will switch energy pathways as it needs to sustain the given activity of choice. Being in ketosis has less to do with that then the activity. Once again, the diet is overemphasized...lemurcat12 wrote: »I think he's arguing that you run on fat if keto and can't burn fat for energy if not keto (which is false).
I know that everyone can burn fat for energy.
But there doesn't exist a body that can use 100% of fatty acids directly as energy during training.
Depending on intensity, you burn more glucose or fat. The more you activity is intense, then the mixture of glucose and fat that you are using shifts to carbohydrates.
Ketosis allows using ketone bodies (previously produced from fat) instead of carbohydrates. So the mixture you use in ketosis is always fat + ketones.0
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