i just cant...
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DeguelloTex wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »I didn't actively choose to do it, I just didn't actively choose not to do it.
If it's not self-control, what is it?
just dont think its that easy especially for people just starting out. If there is guacamole in front of me iwill eat all of it. lack of self control probably. people that have spent years of over eating have a hard time just being like yea man self control.
Very few people say it's easy. That it's not easy doesn't make it wrong, does it?
I will be the first to say that it definitely is not easy. I do not like exercising, but I do it 6 days a week. The food part for me is not that difficult though. When I weigh out the pros and cons of eating a 1000 calorie meal that is full of fat and sodium, like I used to do, I know that it is not worth it so I don't. I have lost a lot and I still have a lot to go. I try not to sit around pontificating on how I allowed myself to be so out of control and gain so much weight. I just focus on doing the best I can everyday and go from there.0 -
DeguelloTex wrote: »
That's not how I see it at all.kommodevaran wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
How do you distinguish the implementation of "planning" from the implementation of "self-control"?DeguelloTex wrote: »
Does being easier for some people than others rule out "self-control" as what needs to happen?not sure if its because I got 3 hours of sleep due to a sewage like breaking under my house haha buuut. I find the responses of "will power" and "self control" so aggravating. So when you gained weight you activly chose to over eat and gain weight. Those things are learned over time after trial and error of adapting CICO. Ive said it before, if it were as easy as self control then id just about assume no one on the planet would ever gain weight or fall victim to bad choices.
Yes, I actively chose to overeat. Nobody held my mouth open and shoved food down my gullet. I did it all myself. Not my finest accomplishment but I did it all myself. Whether or not I did it to purposely gain weight (i.e., actively choosing to gain weight) or not, I chose to eat enough to gain weight. I made bad choices but I was not a victim.
Not sure why it's so aggravating to read the truth.
oh the truth isnt aggravating, but telling someone to have self control is an obvious statement. It is not helpful when they clearly know they lack in that department. When im watching football i should probably have self control when drinking beer but I dont because I enjoy it. I obviously know i should... and telling me to have it doesnt help me in anyway. Im sure there are many people on this site that lack self control in one aspect or another in their life.
But what else are we supposed to do? The alternative is to say "You poor thing. You are a victim. Your overeating patterns and weight gain are due to no fault of your own. Attempting to control yourself is futile. A lifetime of obesity is inevitable. Give up now."
I don't think so, I think the 3rd option is recognizing reasons for overeating in the past and planning to prevent that happening in future. I don't think of it in terms of "self-control" at all. Or maybe, in the sense that with knowledge and experience, you can minimize vulnerability.
yea i dont expect any one to coddle me or anyone else on this site... i just dont really like to see people stating the obvious when self control isnt as easy as snapping a finger.
"Self-control" is easier for some people than others for a HOST of very individual biological and psychological and environmental reasons. Have a problem with blood sugar, PCOS, thyroid, whatever? It's going to be different for you, and it's only by learning different practical strategies that "self-control" is going to be possible.
Great thoughts & links, @jgnatca
"Planning " is a word & framework I prefer. For me the idea of "self-control" is loaded with a whack of moral baggage & judgement I personally find unhelpful. Some people do find it helpful & empowering, they should use that idea. But they shouldn't impose it on others if it's not helpful for them
You didn't ask me, but I'd like to answer what I think: Planning is the act of, in a calm and relaxed state of mind, carefully weighing pros and cons, deliberately deciding to do something that you feel will be good for you (and maybe those close to you), ethically sound, but without any heavy moral judgement - short term as well as long term. Exerting self-control is forcing yourself to do (or don't do) something you don't want to (or want to), telling yourself you're a bad person if you mess up now, trying to suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense, while long term rewards are only a vague blur.
I prelog all my eating. To me, that sounds like planning. Agreed?
When I get the sherbet, I see the dutch chocolate ice cream. When I get the strawberries, I see the cheese. When I get tuna, I see the cookies and peanut butter cups. I exert self-control when I forego those potentially more attractive options and stick to what I've planned. I do definitely suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense.
I don't view it in terms of being a "bad person." I view it in terms of being a person who's focused on his goals. Now, that means sticking with food choices that better fit those goals. Previously, it had been sticking with academic work instead of going to a bar. Or focusing on learning a programming language instead of watching TV. Or focusing on the yard work that needed to be done instead of sitting down to play WoW. It isn't about being a good or bad person, to me. It's about living up to my expectations for myself.
I find your discussion of focusing on goals far more useful than I would a response like "You're an adult; have some self control."0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
That's not how I see it at all.kommodevaran wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
How do you distinguish the implementation of "planning" from the implementation of "self-control"?DeguelloTex wrote: »
Does being easier for some people than others rule out "self-control" as what needs to happen?not sure if its because I got 3 hours of sleep due to a sewage like breaking under my house haha buuut. I find the responses of "will power" and "self control" so aggravating. So when you gained weight you activly chose to over eat and gain weight. Those things are learned over time after trial and error of adapting CICO. Ive said it before, if it were as easy as self control then id just about assume no one on the planet would ever gain weight or fall victim to bad choices.
Yes, I actively chose to overeat. Nobody held my mouth open and shoved food down my gullet. I did it all myself. Not my finest accomplishment but I did it all myself. Whether or not I did it to purposely gain weight (i.e., actively choosing to gain weight) or not, I chose to eat enough to gain weight. I made bad choices but I was not a victim.
Not sure why it's so aggravating to read the truth.
oh the truth isnt aggravating, but telling someone to have self control is an obvious statement. It is not helpful when they clearly know they lack in that department. When im watching football i should probably have self control when drinking beer but I dont because I enjoy it. I obviously know i should... and telling me to have it doesnt help me in anyway. Im sure there are many people on this site that lack self control in one aspect or another in their life.
But what else are we supposed to do? The alternative is to say "You poor thing. You are a victim. Your overeating patterns and weight gain are due to no fault of your own. Attempting to control yourself is futile. A lifetime of obesity is inevitable. Give up now."
I don't think so, I think the 3rd option is recognizing reasons for overeating in the past and planning to prevent that happening in future. I don't think of it in terms of "self-control" at all. Or maybe, in the sense that with knowledge and experience, you can minimize vulnerability.
yea i dont expect any one to coddle me or anyone else on this site... i just dont really like to see people stating the obvious when self control isnt as easy as snapping a finger.
"Self-control" is easier for some people than others for a HOST of very individual biological and psychological and environmental reasons. Have a problem with blood sugar, PCOS, thyroid, whatever? It's going to be different for you, and it's only by learning different practical strategies that "self-control" is going to be possible.
Great thoughts & links, @jgnatca
"Planning " is a word & framework I prefer. For me the idea of "self-control" is loaded with a whack of moral baggage & judgement I personally find unhelpful. Some people do find it helpful & empowering, they should use that idea. But they shouldn't impose it on others if it's not helpful for them
You didn't ask me, but I'd like to answer what I think: Planning is the act of, in a calm and relaxed state of mind, carefully weighing pros and cons, deliberately deciding to do something that you feel will be good for you (and maybe those close to you), ethically sound, but without any heavy moral judgement - short term as well as long term. Exerting self-control is forcing yourself to do (or don't do) something you don't want to (or want to), telling yourself you're a bad person if you mess up now, trying to suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense, while long term rewards are only a vague blur.
I prelog all my eating. To me, that sounds like planning. Agreed?
When I get the sherbet, I see the dutch chocolate ice cream. When I get the strawberries, I see the cheese. When I get tuna, I see the cookies and peanut butter cups. I exert self-control when I forego those potentially more attractive options and stick to what I've planned. I do definitely suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense.
I don't view it in terms of being a "bad person." I view it in terms of being a person who's focused on his goals. Now, that means sticking with food choices that better fit those goals. Previously, it had been sticking with academic work instead of going to a bar. Or focusing on learning a programming language instead of watching TV. Or focusing on the yard work that needed to be done instead of sitting down to play WoW. It isn't about being a good or bad person, to me. It's about living up to my expectations for myself.
I find your discussion of focusing on goals far more useful than I would a response like "You're an adult; have some self control."
+1.0 -
I’m one of those people who would say it’s easy, but that’s only because of the multiple steps I took over 15 years+. In 1998, when I stopped drinking full calorie soda. In 1999, when I joined the Army and found out I can run more than a mile. In 2004 when I learned about what reasonable portion sizes are. In 2008, when I first logged in a food diary, and weighed food and learned about how many calories I ate. In 2012, when I discovered a passion for cycling.
Finally, in 2015, when I learned that I cannot blame my genes or others for my weight. Also learned that I do not need to prohibit any food from my life, I just need to regulate and log it.
All the pieces have seemed to come together.
I believe that until people realize that they can only blame themselves, they aren’t going to be successful. Another way to put that is it comes down to self-control. Yes, it doesn’t come right away, but it still comes down to the same issue.
Good luck.
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Therealobi1 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
Doesn't that kind of beg the question, though? I mean, yeah, if your premise is that there isn't enough willpower to make it through the day then, yeah, there isn't enough willpower to make it through the day.kommodevaran wrote: »I dislike the concept of willpower when it comes to not eating too much of ubiquitous tempting food. We have only a certain amount of willpower, it gets depleted through the day, and it needs to be used economically. I like the idea of skillpower, the ability to build good habits, reduce exposure, and find ways to stay occupied doing things that not involve food.
Even presuming that's true, though, it doesn't mean that willpower isn't the answer, it just means that you want to try to organize your environment such that whatever amount of willpower you have is sufficient, right? If you want to call that "skillpower," whatever, but doesn't it ultimately come down to making your willpower last long enough?
Sure, but like @tomatoey said, a useful post is one that includes "breaking down the "baby steps" that make "self-control" more achievable, vs. looking at it like some kind of inborn character trait."
an inborn character trait that occurs once you hit adult hood
Except we know from the marshmallow studies that children exercise it with various levels of success. I suggest rather that we hold people accountable for it once they hit adulthood.0 -
If you think "be more goal-oriented" wouldn't be the next "condescending" answer -- "of course I have goals, do you think I'm stupid?!?!" -- you're more optimistic than I am. Even leaving aside that not everyone view settings goals with the same degree of approval, kinda like with exercising self-control.kshama2001 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
That's not how I see it at all.kommodevaran wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
How do you distinguish the implementation of "planning" from the implementation of "self-control"?DeguelloTex wrote: »
Does being easier for some people than others rule out "self-control" as what needs to happen?not sure if its because I got 3 hours of sleep due to a sewage like breaking under my house haha buuut. I find the responses of "will power" and "self control" so aggravating. So when you gained weight you activly chose to over eat and gain weight. Those things are learned over time after trial and error of adapting CICO. Ive said it before, if it were as easy as self control then id just about assume no one on the planet would ever gain weight or fall victim to bad choices.
Yes, I actively chose to overeat. Nobody held my mouth open and shoved food down my gullet. I did it all myself. Not my finest accomplishment but I did it all myself. Whether or not I did it to purposely gain weight (i.e., actively choosing to gain weight) or not, I chose to eat enough to gain weight. I made bad choices but I was not a victim.
Not sure why it's so aggravating to read the truth.
oh the truth isnt aggravating, but telling someone to have self control is an obvious statement. It is not helpful when they clearly know they lack in that department. When im watching football i should probably have self control when drinking beer but I dont because I enjoy it. I obviously know i should... and telling me to have it doesnt help me in anyway. Im sure there are many people on this site that lack self control in one aspect or another in their life.
But what else are we supposed to do? The alternative is to say "You poor thing. You are a victim. Your overeating patterns and weight gain are due to no fault of your own. Attempting to control yourself is futile. A lifetime of obesity is inevitable. Give up now."
I don't think so, I think the 3rd option is recognizing reasons for overeating in the past and planning to prevent that happening in future. I don't think of it in terms of "self-control" at all. Or maybe, in the sense that with knowledge and experience, you can minimize vulnerability.
yea i dont expect any one to coddle me or anyone else on this site... i just dont really like to see people stating the obvious when self control isnt as easy as snapping a finger.
"Self-control" is easier for some people than others for a HOST of very individual biological and psychological and environmental reasons. Have a problem with blood sugar, PCOS, thyroid, whatever? It's going to be different for you, and it's only by learning different practical strategies that "self-control" is going to be possible.
Great thoughts & links, @jgnatca
"Planning " is a word & framework I prefer. For me the idea of "self-control" is loaded with a whack of moral baggage & judgement I personally find unhelpful. Some people do find it helpful & empowering, they should use that idea. But they shouldn't impose it on others if it's not helpful for them
You didn't ask me, but I'd like to answer what I think: Planning is the act of, in a calm and relaxed state of mind, carefully weighing pros and cons, deliberately deciding to do something that you feel will be good for you (and maybe those close to you), ethically sound, but without any heavy moral judgement - short term as well as long term. Exerting self-control is forcing yourself to do (or don't do) something you don't want to (or want to), telling yourself you're a bad person if you mess up now, trying to suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense, while long term rewards are only a vague blur.
I prelog all my eating. To me, that sounds like planning. Agreed?
When I get the sherbet, I see the dutch chocolate ice cream. When I get the strawberries, I see the cheese. When I get tuna, I see the cookies and peanut butter cups. I exert self-control when I forego those potentially more attractive options and stick to what I've planned. I do definitely suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense.
I don't view it in terms of being a "bad person." I view it in terms of being a person who's focused on his goals. Now, that means sticking with food choices that better fit those goals. Previously, it had been sticking with academic work instead of going to a bar. Or focusing on learning a programming language instead of watching TV. Or focusing on the yard work that needed to be done instead of sitting down to play WoW. It isn't about being a good or bad person, to me. It's about living up to my expectations for myself.
I find your discussion of focusing on goals far more useful than I would a response like "You're an adult; have some self control."0 -
I think what's most frustrating about getting responses like "self control" and "will power" is their simplicity. Losing weight really is as simple as excercising self control and burning more calories than you ingest. But oftentimes people are striving for a magical solution or profound advice, and sometimes it's just not there. With weight loss you just have to do it and stick to your plan. I used to struggle a lot with self control particularly when I was in college with an abundance of bad food choices and going out to the bars every week. What I've learned is that I just didn't value losing weight enough. Until you are absolutely determined to lose the weight, whether through hell or high water, no amount of kind words from others is going to force you to do it. Losing weight is going to become more important than eating the cookie, and you'll put it back, or just have one, instead of devouring the whole batch. And that motivation has to come from within, from focusing on whatever reasons are motivating you to try to lose weight in the first place. Friends and family cannot motivate you, and that's often why people who undergo dieting solely based on doctors orders or a disgruntled spouse, without truly having their heart in it, fail. To lose weight you have to want it more than anything else and have a rock solid plan in place for achieving it, complete with knowing your own weaknesses and designing strategies to combat those "give in" moments.0
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DeguelloTex wrote: »
If you think "be more goal-oriented" wouldn't be the next "condescending" answer -- "of course I have goals, do you think I'm stupid?!?!" -- you're more optimistic than I am. Even leaving aside that not everyone view settings goals with the same degree of approval, kinda like with exercising self-control.kshama2001 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
That's not how I see it at all.kommodevaran wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
How do you distinguish the implementation of "planning" from the implementation of "self-control"?DeguelloTex wrote: »
Does being easier for some people than others rule out "self-control" as what needs to happen?not sure if its because I got 3 hours of sleep due to a sewage like breaking under my house haha buuut. I find the responses of "will power" and "self control" so aggravating. So when you gained weight you activly chose to over eat and gain weight. Those things are learned over time after trial and error of adapting CICO. Ive said it before, if it were as easy as self control then id just about assume no one on the planet would ever gain weight or fall victim to bad choices.
Yes, I actively chose to overeat. Nobody held my mouth open and shoved food down my gullet. I did it all myself. Not my finest accomplishment but I did it all myself. Whether or not I did it to purposely gain weight (i.e., actively choosing to gain weight) or not, I chose to eat enough to gain weight. I made bad choices but I was not a victim.
Not sure why it's so aggravating to read the truth.
oh the truth isnt aggravating, but telling someone to have self control is an obvious statement. It is not helpful when they clearly know they lack in that department. When im watching football i should probably have self control when drinking beer but I dont because I enjoy it. I obviously know i should... and telling me to have it doesnt help me in anyway. Im sure there are many people on this site that lack self control in one aspect or another in their life.
But what else are we supposed to do? The alternative is to say "You poor thing. You are a victim. Your overeating patterns and weight gain are due to no fault of your own. Attempting to control yourself is futile. A lifetime of obesity is inevitable. Give up now."
I don't think so, I think the 3rd option is recognizing reasons for overeating in the past and planning to prevent that happening in future. I don't think of it in terms of "self-control" at all. Or maybe, in the sense that with knowledge and experience, you can minimize vulnerability.
yea i dont expect any one to coddle me or anyone else on this site... i just dont really like to see people stating the obvious when self control isnt as easy as snapping a finger.
"Self-control" is easier for some people than others for a HOST of very individual biological and psychological and environmental reasons. Have a problem with blood sugar, PCOS, thyroid, whatever? It's going to be different for you, and it's only by learning different practical strategies that "self-control" is going to be possible.
Great thoughts & links, @jgnatca
"Planning " is a word & framework I prefer. For me the idea of "self-control" is loaded with a whack of moral baggage & judgement I personally find unhelpful. Some people do find it helpful & empowering, they should use that idea. But they shouldn't impose it on others if it's not helpful for them
You didn't ask me, but I'd like to answer what I think: Planning is the act of, in a calm and relaxed state of mind, carefully weighing pros and cons, deliberately deciding to do something that you feel will be good for you (and maybe those close to you), ethically sound, but without any heavy moral judgement - short term as well as long term. Exerting self-control is forcing yourself to do (or don't do) something you don't want to (or want to), telling yourself you're a bad person if you mess up now, trying to suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense, while long term rewards are only a vague blur.
I prelog all my eating. To me, that sounds like planning. Agreed?
When I get the sherbet, I see the dutch chocolate ice cream. When I get the strawberries, I see the cheese. When I get tuna, I see the cookies and peanut butter cups. I exert self-control when I forego those potentially more attractive options and stick to what I've planned. I do definitely suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense.
I don't view it in terms of being a "bad person." I view it in terms of being a person who's focused on his goals. Now, that means sticking with food choices that better fit those goals. Previously, it had been sticking with academic work instead of going to a bar. Or focusing on learning a programming language instead of watching TV. Or focusing on the yard work that needed to be done instead of sitting down to play WoW. It isn't about being a good or bad person, to me. It's about living up to my expectations for myself.
I find your discussion of focusing on goals far more useful than I would a response like "You're an adult; have some self control."
Again though it's not "be more goal-oriented" - that means being another kind of person - as much as "what about tweaking your goals in this way" or "here are some tips you can use to achieve your goals"
Goal-setting - as a behaviour, vs. being a kind of person who does it - imo is way more value-neutral than char acter-based ideas. I don't think anyone's going to have a problem with talking about goals.0 -
DeguelloTex wrote: »
If you think "be more goal-oriented" wouldn't be the next "condescending" answer -- "of course I have goals, do you think I'm stupid?!?!" -- you're more optimistic than I am. Even leaving aside that not everyone view settings goals with the same degree of approval, kinda like with exercising self-control.kshama2001 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
That's not how I see it at all.kommodevaran wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
How do you distinguish the implementation of "planning" from the implementation of "self-control"?DeguelloTex wrote: »
Does being easier for some people than others rule out "self-control" as what needs to happen?not sure if its because I got 3 hours of sleep due to a sewage like breaking under my house haha buuut. I find the responses of "will power" and "self control" so aggravating. So when you gained weight you activly chose to over eat and gain weight. Those things are learned over time after trial and error of adapting CICO. Ive said it before, if it were as easy as self control then id just about assume no one on the planet would ever gain weight or fall victim to bad choices.
Yes, I actively chose to overeat. Nobody held my mouth open and shoved food down my gullet. I did it all myself. Not my finest accomplishment but I did it all myself. Whether or not I did it to purposely gain weight (i.e., actively choosing to gain weight) or not, I chose to eat enough to gain weight. I made bad choices but I was not a victim.
Not sure why it's so aggravating to read the truth.
oh the truth isnt aggravating, but telling someone to have self control is an obvious statement. It is not helpful when they clearly know they lack in that department. When im watching football i should probably have self control when drinking beer but I dont because I enjoy it. I obviously know i should... and telling me to have it doesnt help me in anyway. Im sure there are many people on this site that lack self control in one aspect or another in their life.
But what else are we supposed to do? The alternative is to say "You poor thing. You are a victim. Your overeating patterns and weight gain are due to no fault of your own. Attempting to control yourself is futile. A lifetime of obesity is inevitable. Give up now."
I don't think so, I think the 3rd option is recognizing reasons for overeating in the past and planning to prevent that happening in future. I don't think of it in terms of "self-control" at all. Or maybe, in the sense that with knowledge and experience, you can minimize vulnerability.
yea i dont expect any one to coddle me or anyone else on this site... i just dont really like to see people stating the obvious when self control isnt as easy as snapping a finger.
"Self-control" is easier for some people than others for a HOST of very individual biological and psychological and environmental reasons. Have a problem with blood sugar, PCOS, thyroid, whatever? It's going to be different for you, and it's only by learning different practical strategies that "self-control" is going to be possible.
Great thoughts & links, @jgnatca
"Planning " is a word & framework I prefer. For me the idea of "self-control" is loaded with a whack of moral baggage & judgement I personally find unhelpful. Some people do find it helpful & empowering, they should use that idea. But they shouldn't impose it on others if it's not helpful for them
You didn't ask me, but I'd like to answer what I think: Planning is the act of, in a calm and relaxed state of mind, carefully weighing pros and cons, deliberately deciding to do something that you feel will be good for you (and maybe those close to you), ethically sound, but without any heavy moral judgement - short term as well as long term. Exerting self-control is forcing yourself to do (or don't do) something you don't want to (or want to), telling yourself you're a bad person if you mess up now, trying to suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense, while long term rewards are only a vague blur.
I prelog all my eating. To me, that sounds like planning. Agreed?
When I get the sherbet, I see the dutch chocolate ice cream. When I get the strawberries, I see the cheese. When I get tuna, I see the cookies and peanut butter cups. I exert self-control when I forego those potentially more attractive options and stick to what I've planned. I do definitely suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense.
I don't view it in terms of being a "bad person." I view it in terms of being a person who's focused on his goals. Now, that means sticking with food choices that better fit those goals. Previously, it had been sticking with academic work instead of going to a bar. Or focusing on learning a programming language instead of watching TV. Or focusing on the yard work that needed to be done instead of sitting down to play WoW. It isn't about being a good or bad person, to me. It's about living up to my expectations for myself.
I find your discussion of focusing on goals far more useful than I would a response like "You're an adult; have some self control."
The answers I found useful were "I" statements and the answers I find unhelpful are "you" statements. "Be more goal-oriented" might be ok if followed up with "I" statement examples like what you gave.0 -
You and @tomatoey can't even agree on the value of "be more goal-oriented."kshama2001 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
If you think "be more goal-oriented" wouldn't be the next "condescending" answer -- "of course I have goals, do you think I'm stupid?!?!" -- you're more optimistic than I am. Even leaving aside that not everyone view settings goals with the same degree of approval, kinda like with exercising self-control.kshama2001 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
That's not how I see it at all.kommodevaran wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
How do you distinguish the implementation of "planning" from the implementation of "self-control"?DeguelloTex wrote: »
Does being easier for some people than others rule out "self-control" as what needs to happen?not sure if its because I got 3 hours of sleep due to a sewage like breaking under my house haha buuut. I find the responses of "will power" and "self control" so aggravating. So when you gained weight you activly chose to over eat and gain weight. Those things are learned over time after trial and error of adapting CICO. Ive said it before, if it were as easy as self control then id just about assume no one on the planet would ever gain weight or fall victim to bad choices.
Yes, I actively chose to overeat. Nobody held my mouth open and shoved food down my gullet. I did it all myself. Not my finest accomplishment but I did it all myself. Whether or not I did it to purposely gain weight (i.e., actively choosing to gain weight) or not, I chose to eat enough to gain weight. I made bad choices but I was not a victim.
Not sure why it's so aggravating to read the truth.
oh the truth isnt aggravating, but telling someone to have self control is an obvious statement. It is not helpful when they clearly know they lack in that department. When im watching football i should probably have self control when drinking beer but I dont because I enjoy it. I obviously know i should... and telling me to have it doesnt help me in anyway. Im sure there are many people on this site that lack self control in one aspect or another in their life.
But what else are we supposed to do? The alternative is to say "You poor thing. You are a victim. Your overeating patterns and weight gain are due to no fault of your own. Attempting to control yourself is futile. A lifetime of obesity is inevitable. Give up now."
I don't think so, I think the 3rd option is recognizing reasons for overeating in the past and planning to prevent that happening in future. I don't think of it in terms of "self-control" at all. Or maybe, in the sense that with knowledge and experience, you can minimize vulnerability.
yea i dont expect any one to coddle me or anyone else on this site... i just dont really like to see people stating the obvious when self control isnt as easy as snapping a finger.
"Self-control" is easier for some people than others for a HOST of very individual biological and psychological and environmental reasons. Have a problem with blood sugar, PCOS, thyroid, whatever? It's going to be different for you, and it's only by learning different practical strategies that "self-control" is going to be possible.
Great thoughts & links, @jgnatca
"Planning " is a word & framework I prefer. For me the idea of "self-control" is loaded with a whack of moral baggage & judgement I personally find unhelpful. Some people do find it helpful & empowering, they should use that idea. But they shouldn't impose it on others if it's not helpful for them
You didn't ask me, but I'd like to answer what I think: Planning is the act of, in a calm and relaxed state of mind, carefully weighing pros and cons, deliberately deciding to do something that you feel will be good for you (and maybe those close to you), ethically sound, but without any heavy moral judgement - short term as well as long term. Exerting self-control is forcing yourself to do (or don't do) something you don't want to (or want to), telling yourself you're a bad person if you mess up now, trying to suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense, while long term rewards are only a vague blur.
I prelog all my eating. To me, that sounds like planning. Agreed?
When I get the sherbet, I see the dutch chocolate ice cream. When I get the strawberries, I see the cheese. When I get tuna, I see the cookies and peanut butter cups. I exert self-control when I forego those potentially more attractive options and stick to what I've planned. I do definitely suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense.
I don't view it in terms of being a "bad person." I view it in terms of being a person who's focused on his goals. Now, that means sticking with food choices that better fit those goals. Previously, it had been sticking with academic work instead of going to a bar. Or focusing on learning a programming language instead of watching TV. Or focusing on the yard work that needed to be done instead of sitting down to play WoW. It isn't about being a good or bad person, to me. It's about living up to my expectations for myself.
I find your discussion of focusing on goals far more useful than I would a response like "You're an adult; have some self control."
The answers I found useful were "I" statements and the answers I find unhelpful are "you" statements. "Be more goal-oriented" might be ok if followed up with "I" statement examples like what you gave.
Again, maybe give answers you think are helpful and others will do the same. If you don't find "you" statements helpful, move past them to the "I" statements.
OP's been asked what would be more helpful and, unless I missed it, hasn't shared that info.0 -
kommodevaran wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
How do you distinguish the implementation of "planning" from the implementation of "self-control"?DeguelloTex wrote: »
Does being easier for some people than others rule out "self-control" as what needs to happen?not sure if its because I got 3 hours of sleep due to a sewage like breaking under my house haha buuut. I find the responses of "will power" and "self control" so aggravating. So when you gained weight you activly chose to over eat and gain weight. Those things are learned over time after trial and error of adapting CICO. Ive said it before, if it were as easy as self control then id just about assume no one on the planet would ever gain weight or fall victim to bad choices.
Yes, I actively chose to overeat. Nobody held my mouth open and shoved food down my gullet. I did it all myself. Not my finest accomplishment but I did it all myself. Whether or not I did it to purposely gain weight (i.e., actively choosing to gain weight) or not, I chose to eat enough to gain weight. I made bad choices but I was not a victim.
Not sure why it's so aggravating to read the truth.
oh the truth isnt aggravating, but telling someone to have self control is an obvious statement. It is not helpful when they clearly know they lack in that department. When im watching football i should probably have self control when drinking beer but I dont because I enjoy it. I obviously know i should... and telling me to have it doesnt help me in anyway. Im sure there are many people on this site that lack self control in one aspect or another in their life.
But what else are we supposed to do? The alternative is to say "You poor thing. You are a victim. Your overeating patterns and weight gain are due to no fault of your own. Attempting to control yourself is futile. A lifetime of obesity is inevitable. Give up now."
I don't think so, I think the 3rd option is recognizing reasons for overeating in the past and planning to prevent that happening in future. I don't think of it in terms of "self-control" at all. Or maybe, in the sense that with knowledge and experience, you can minimize vulnerability.
yea i dont expect any one to coddle me or anyone else on this site... i just dont really like to see people stating the obvious when self control isnt as easy as snapping a finger.
"Self-control" is easier for some people than others for a HOST of very individual biological and psychological and environmental reasons. Have a problem with blood sugar, PCOS, thyroid, whatever? It's going to be different for you, and it's only by learning different practical strategies that "self-control" is going to be possible.
Great thoughts & links, @jgnatca
"Planning " is a word & framework I prefer. For me the idea of "self-control" is loaded with a whack of moral baggage & judgement I personally find unhelpful. Some people do find it helpful & empowering, they should use that idea. But they shouldn't impose it on others if it's not helpful for them
You didn't ask me, but I'd like to answer what I think: Planning is the act of, in a calm and relaxed state of mind, carefully weighing pros and cons, deliberately deciding to do something that you feel will be good for you (and maybe those close to you), ethically sound, but without any heavy moral judgement - short term as well as long term. Exerting self-control is forcing yourself to do (or don't do) something you don't want to (or want to), telling yourself you're a bad person if you mess up now, trying to suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense, while long term rewards are only a vague blur.
To me this reads as mindset more so than actually what these things mean.
Honestly willpower/exerting self-control and planning are part and parcel of proactive experiences of someone taking control of a situation in a positive way -- if they choose to see things in that light.
You've added all the negative layering on top of a process, and that doesn't necessarily exist there except for you.
I'm frankly shocked that I see the idea of encouraging people to be self-sufficient and empowered as being mean on here. Something tells me that any one who would view such a suggestion as mean has never really experienced true meanness.
I will agree that it's not always easy believing that you can be in full control of yourself and your environment, but the first step to exerting that control is loving yourself enough to believe it can happen. There's no room in that love for all that negative self-talk you mentioned above.0 -
DeguelloTex wrote: »
You and @tomatoey can't even agree on the value of "be more goal-oriented."kshama2001 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
If you think "be more goal-oriented" wouldn't be the next "condescending" answer -- "of course I have goals, do you think I'm stupid?!?!" -- you're more optimistic than I am. Even leaving aside that not everyone view settings goals with the same degree of approval, kinda like with exercising self-control.kshama2001 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
That's not how I see it at all.kommodevaran wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
How do you distinguish the implementation of "planning" from the implementation of "self-control"?DeguelloTex wrote: »
Does being easier for some people than others rule out "self-control" as what needs to happen?not sure if its because I got 3 hours of sleep due to a sewage like breaking under my house haha buuut. I find the responses of "will power" and "self control" so aggravating. So when you gained weight you activly chose to over eat and gain weight. Those things are learned over time after trial and error of adapting CICO. Ive said it before, if it were as easy as self control then id just about assume no one on the planet would ever gain weight or fall victim to bad choices.
Yes, I actively chose to overeat. Nobody held my mouth open and shoved food down my gullet. I did it all myself. Not my finest accomplishment but I did it all myself. Whether or not I did it to purposely gain weight (i.e., actively choosing to gain weight) or not, I chose to eat enough to gain weight. I made bad choices but I was not a victim.
Not sure why it's so aggravating to read the truth.
oh the truth isnt aggravating, but telling someone to have self control is an obvious statement. It is not helpful when they clearly know they lack in that department. When im watching football i should probably have self control when drinking beer but I dont because I enjoy it. I obviously know i should... and telling me to have it doesnt help me in anyway. Im sure there are many people on this site that lack self control in one aspect or another in their life.
But what else are we supposed to do? The alternative is to say "You poor thing. You are a victim. Your overeating patterns and weight gain are due to no fault of your own. Attempting to control yourself is futile. A lifetime of obesity is inevitable. Give up now."
I don't think so, I think the 3rd option is recognizing reasons for overeating in the past and planning to prevent that happening in future. I don't think of it in terms of "self-control" at all. Or maybe, in the sense that with knowledge and experience, you can minimize vulnerability.
yea i dont expect any one to coddle me or anyone else on this site... i just dont really like to see people stating the obvious when self control isnt as easy as snapping a finger.
"Self-control" is easier for some people than others for a HOST of very individual biological and psychological and environmental reasons. Have a problem with blood sugar, PCOS, thyroid, whatever? It's going to be different for you, and it's only by learning different practical strategies that "self-control" is going to be possible.
Great thoughts & links, @jgnatca
"Planning " is a word & framework I prefer. For me the idea of "self-control" is loaded with a whack of moral baggage & judgement I personally find unhelpful. Some people do find it helpful & empowering, they should use that idea. But they shouldn't impose it on others if it's not helpful for them
You didn't ask me, but I'd like to answer what I think: Planning is the act of, in a calm and relaxed state of mind, carefully weighing pros and cons, deliberately deciding to do something that you feel will be good for you (and maybe those close to you), ethically sound, but without any heavy moral judgement - short term as well as long term. Exerting self-control is forcing yourself to do (or don't do) something you don't want to (or want to), telling yourself you're a bad person if you mess up now, trying to suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense, while long term rewards are only a vague blur.
I prelog all my eating. To me, that sounds like planning. Agreed?
When I get the sherbet, I see the dutch chocolate ice cream. When I get the strawberries, I see the cheese. When I get tuna, I see the cookies and peanut butter cups. I exert self-control when I forego those potentially more attractive options and stick to what I've planned. I do definitely suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense.
I don't view it in terms of being a "bad person." I view it in terms of being a person who's focused on his goals. Now, that means sticking with food choices that better fit those goals. Previously, it had been sticking with academic work instead of going to a bar. Or focusing on learning a programming language instead of watching TV. Or focusing on the yard work that needed to be done instead of sitting down to play WoW. It isn't about being a good or bad person, to me. It's about living up to my expectations for myself.
I find your discussion of focusing on goals far more useful than I would a response like "You're an adult; have some self control."
The answers I found useful were "I" statements and the answers I find unhelpful are "you" statements. "Be more goal-oriented" might be ok if followed up with "I" statement examples like what you gave.
Again, maybe give answers you think are helpful and others will do the same. If you don't find "you" statements helpful, move past them to the "I" statements.
OP's been asked what would be more helpful and, unless I missed it, hasn't shared that info.
Lol. We discussed different ways of discussing goals, that doesn't mean we don't agree on the *separate points* we each made. I actually do agree with @kshama2001 re I statements vs. You statements. I was talking about "entity" vs "process" based concepts ("character" vs. "behaviour")0 -
Given that all processes fall back on the entity anyway, I'm more entity-based. Processes don't operate themselves.DeguelloTex wrote: »
You and @tomatoey can't even agree on the value of "be more goal-oriented."kshama2001 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
If you think "be more goal-oriented" wouldn't be the next "condescending" answer -- "of course I have goals, do you think I'm stupid?!?!" -- you're more optimistic than I am. Even leaving aside that not everyone view settings goals with the same degree of approval, kinda like with exercising self-control.kshama2001 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
That's not how I see it at all.kommodevaran wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
How do you distinguish the implementation of "planning" from the implementation of "self-control"?DeguelloTex wrote: »
Does being easier for some people than others rule out "self-control" as what needs to happen?not sure if its because I got 3 hours of sleep due to a sewage like breaking under my house haha buuut. I find the responses of "will power" and "self control" so aggravating. So when you gained weight you activly chose to over eat and gain weight. Those things are learned over time after trial and error of adapting CICO. Ive said it before, if it were as easy as self control then id just about assume no one on the planet would ever gain weight or fall victim to bad choices.
Yes, I actively chose to overeat. Nobody held my mouth open and shoved food down my gullet. I did it all myself. Not my finest accomplishment but I did it all myself. Whether or not I did it to purposely gain weight (i.e., actively choosing to gain weight) or not, I chose to eat enough to gain weight. I made bad choices but I was not a victim.
Not sure why it's so aggravating to read the truth.
oh the truth isnt aggravating, but telling someone to have self control is an obvious statement. It is not helpful when they clearly know they lack in that department. When im watching football i should probably have self control when drinking beer but I dont because I enjoy it. I obviously know i should... and telling me to have it doesnt help me in anyway. Im sure there are many people on this site that lack self control in one aspect or another in their life.
But what else are we supposed to do? The alternative is to say "You poor thing. You are a victim. Your overeating patterns and weight gain are due to no fault of your own. Attempting to control yourself is futile. A lifetime of obesity is inevitable. Give up now."
I don't think so, I think the 3rd option is recognizing reasons for overeating in the past and planning to prevent that happening in future. I don't think of it in terms of "self-control" at all. Or maybe, in the sense that with knowledge and experience, you can minimize vulnerability.
yea i dont expect any one to coddle me or anyone else on this site... i just dont really like to see people stating the obvious when self control isnt as easy as snapping a finger.
"Self-control" is easier for some people than others for a HOST of very individual biological and psychological and environmental reasons. Have a problem with blood sugar, PCOS, thyroid, whatever? It's going to be different for you, and it's only by learning different practical strategies that "self-control" is going to be possible.
Great thoughts & links, @jgnatca
"Planning " is a word & framework I prefer. For me the idea of "self-control" is loaded with a whack of moral baggage & judgement I personally find unhelpful. Some people do find it helpful & empowering, they should use that idea. But they shouldn't impose it on others if it's not helpful for them
You didn't ask me, but I'd like to answer what I think: Planning is the act of, in a calm and relaxed state of mind, carefully weighing pros and cons, deliberately deciding to do something that you feel will be good for you (and maybe those close to you), ethically sound, but without any heavy moral judgement - short term as well as long term. Exerting self-control is forcing yourself to do (or don't do) something you don't want to (or want to), telling yourself you're a bad person if you mess up now, trying to suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense, while long term rewards are only a vague blur.
I prelog all my eating. To me, that sounds like planning. Agreed?
When I get the sherbet, I see the dutch chocolate ice cream. When I get the strawberries, I see the cheese. When I get tuna, I see the cookies and peanut butter cups. I exert self-control when I forego those potentially more attractive options and stick to what I've planned. I do definitely suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense.
I don't view it in terms of being a "bad person." I view it in terms of being a person who's focused on his goals. Now, that means sticking with food choices that better fit those goals. Previously, it had been sticking with academic work instead of going to a bar. Or focusing on learning a programming language instead of watching TV. Or focusing on the yard work that needed to be done instead of sitting down to play WoW. It isn't about being a good or bad person, to me. It's about living up to my expectations for myself.
I find your discussion of focusing on goals far more useful than I would a response like "You're an adult; have some self control."
The answers I found useful were "I" statements and the answers I find unhelpful are "you" statements. "Be more goal-oriented" might be ok if followed up with "I" statement examples like what you gave.
Again, maybe give answers you think are helpful and others will do the same. If you don't find "you" statements helpful, move past them to the "I" statements.
OP's been asked what would be more helpful and, unless I missed it, hasn't shared that info.
Lol. We discussed different ways of discussing goals, that doesn't mean we don't agree on the *separate points* we each made. I actually do agree with @kshama2001 re I statements vs. You statements. I was talking about "entity" vs "process" based concepts.0 -
DeguelloTex wrote: »
Given that all processes fall back on the entity anyway, I'm more entity-based. Processes don't operate themselves.DeguelloTex wrote: »
You and @tomatoey can't even agree on the value of "be more goal-oriented."kshama2001 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
If you think "be more goal-oriented" wouldn't be the next "condescending" answer -- "of course I have goals, do you think I'm stupid?!?!" -- you're more optimistic than I am. Even leaving aside that not everyone view settings goals with the same degree of approval, kinda like with exercising self-control.kshama2001 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
That's not how I see it at all.kommodevaran wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
How do you distinguish the implementation of "planning" from the implementation of "self-control"?DeguelloTex wrote: »
Does being easier for some people than others rule out "self-control" as what needs to happen?not sure if its because I got 3 hours of sleep due to a sewage like breaking under my house haha buuut. I find the responses of "will power" and "self control" so aggravating. So when you gained weight you activly chose to over eat and gain weight. Those things are learned over time after trial and error of adapting CICO. Ive said it before, if it were as easy as self control then id just about assume no one on the planet would ever gain weight or fall victim to bad choices.
Yes, I actively chose to overeat. Nobody held my mouth open and shoved food down my gullet. I did it all myself. Not my finest accomplishment but I did it all myself. Whether or not I did it to purposely gain weight (i.e., actively choosing to gain weight) or not, I chose to eat enough to gain weight. I made bad choices but I was not a victim.
Not sure why it's so aggravating to read the truth.
oh the truth isnt aggravating, but telling someone to have self control is an obvious statement. It is not helpful when they clearly know they lack in that department. When im watching football i should probably have self control when drinking beer but I dont because I enjoy it. I obviously know i should... and telling me to have it doesnt help me in anyway. Im sure there are many people on this site that lack self control in one aspect or another in their life.
But what else are we supposed to do? The alternative is to say "You poor thing. You are a victim. Your overeating patterns and weight gain are due to no fault of your own. Attempting to control yourself is futile. A lifetime of obesity is inevitable. Give up now."
I don't think so, I think the 3rd option is recognizing reasons for overeating in the past and planning to prevent that happening in future. I don't think of it in terms of "self-control" at all. Or maybe, in the sense that with knowledge and experience, you can minimize vulnerability.
yea i dont expect any one to coddle me or anyone else on this site... i just dont really like to see people stating the obvious when self control isnt as easy as snapping a finger.
"Self-control" is easier for some people than others for a HOST of very individual biological and psychological and environmental reasons. Have a problem with blood sugar, PCOS, thyroid, whatever? It's going to be different for you, and it's only by learning different practical strategies that "self-control" is going to be possible.
Great thoughts & links, @jgnatca
"Planning " is a word & framework I prefer. For me the idea of "self-control" is loaded with a whack of moral baggage & judgement I personally find unhelpful. Some people do find it helpful & empowering, they should use that idea. But they shouldn't impose it on others if it's not helpful for them
You didn't ask me, but I'd like to answer what I think: Planning is the act of, in a calm and relaxed state of mind, carefully weighing pros and cons, deliberately deciding to do something that you feel will be good for you (and maybe those close to you), ethically sound, but without any heavy moral judgement - short term as well as long term. Exerting self-control is forcing yourself to do (or don't do) something you don't want to (or want to), telling yourself you're a bad person if you mess up now, trying to suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense, while long term rewards are only a vague blur.
I prelog all my eating. To me, that sounds like planning. Agreed?
When I get the sherbet, I see the dutch chocolate ice cream. When I get the strawberries, I see the cheese. When I get tuna, I see the cookies and peanut butter cups. I exert self-control when I forego those potentially more attractive options and stick to what I've planned. I do definitely suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense.
I don't view it in terms of being a "bad person." I view it in terms of being a person who's focused on his goals. Now, that means sticking with food choices that better fit those goals. Previously, it had been sticking with academic work instead of going to a bar. Or focusing on learning a programming language instead of watching TV. Or focusing on the yard work that needed to be done instead of sitting down to play WoW. It isn't about being a good or bad person, to me. It's about living up to my expectations for myself.
I find your discussion of focusing on goals far more useful than I would a response like "You're an adult; have some self control."
The answers I found useful were "I" statements and the answers I find unhelpful are "you" statements. "Be more goal-oriented" might be ok if followed up with "I" statement examples like what you gave.
Again, maybe give answers you think are helpful and others will do the same. If you don't find "you" statements helpful, move past them to the "I" statements.
OP's been asked what would be more helpful and, unless I missed it, hasn't shared that info.
Lol. We discussed different ways of discussing goals, that doesn't mean we don't agree on the *separate points* we each made. I actually do agree with @kshama2001 re I statements vs. You statements. I was talking about "entity" vs "process" based concepts.
What about the idea that the entity is comprised by processes? (Just a difference in POV)0 -
Unless you know of some way to rewire the biochemical processes in the brain which give rise to consciousness, no, it isn't just a difference in point of view.DeguelloTex wrote: »
Given that all processes fall back on the entity anyway, I'm more entity-based. Processes don't operate themselves.DeguelloTex wrote: »
You and @tomatoey can't even agree on the value of "be more goal-oriented."kshama2001 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
If you think "be more goal-oriented" wouldn't be the next "condescending" answer -- "of course I have goals, do you think I'm stupid?!?!" -- you're more optimistic than I am. Even leaving aside that not everyone view settings goals with the same degree of approval, kinda like with exercising self-control.kshama2001 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
That's not how I see it at all.kommodevaran wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
How do you distinguish the implementation of "planning" from the implementation of "self-control"?DeguelloTex wrote: »
Does being easier for some people than others rule out "self-control" as what needs to happen?not sure if its because I got 3 hours of sleep due to a sewage like breaking under my house haha buuut. I find the responses of "will power" and "self control" so aggravating. So when you gained weight you activly chose to over eat and gain weight. Those things are learned over time after trial and error of adapting CICO. Ive said it before, if it were as easy as self control then id just about assume no one on the planet would ever gain weight or fall victim to bad choices.
Yes, I actively chose to overeat. Nobody held my mouth open and shoved food down my gullet. I did it all myself. Not my finest accomplishment but I did it all myself. Whether or not I did it to purposely gain weight (i.e., actively choosing to gain weight) or not, I chose to eat enough to gain weight. I made bad choices but I was not a victim.
Not sure why it's so aggravating to read the truth.
oh the truth isnt aggravating, but telling someone to have self control is an obvious statement. It is not helpful when they clearly know they lack in that department. When im watching football i should probably have self control when drinking beer but I dont because I enjoy it. I obviously know i should... and telling me to have it doesnt help me in anyway. Im sure there are many people on this site that lack self control in one aspect or another in their life.
But what else are we supposed to do? The alternative is to say "You poor thing. You are a victim. Your overeating patterns and weight gain are due to no fault of your own. Attempting to control yourself is futile. A lifetime of obesity is inevitable. Give up now."
I don't think so, I think the 3rd option is recognizing reasons for overeating in the past and planning to prevent that happening in future. I don't think of it in terms of "self-control" at all. Or maybe, in the sense that with knowledge and experience, you can minimize vulnerability.
yea i dont expect any one to coddle me or anyone else on this site... i just dont really like to see people stating the obvious when self control isnt as easy as snapping a finger.
"Self-control" is easier for some people than others for a HOST of very individual biological and psychological and environmental reasons. Have a problem with blood sugar, PCOS, thyroid, whatever? It's going to be different for you, and it's only by learning different practical strategies that "self-control" is going to be possible.
Great thoughts & links, @jgnatca
"Planning " is a word & framework I prefer. For me the idea of "self-control" is loaded with a whack of moral baggage & judgement I personally find unhelpful. Some people do find it helpful & empowering, they should use that idea. But they shouldn't impose it on others if it's not helpful for them
You didn't ask me, but I'd like to answer what I think: Planning is the act of, in a calm and relaxed state of mind, carefully weighing pros and cons, deliberately deciding to do something that you feel will be good for you (and maybe those close to you), ethically sound, but without any heavy moral judgement - short term as well as long term. Exerting self-control is forcing yourself to do (or don't do) something you don't want to (or want to), telling yourself you're a bad person if you mess up now, trying to suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense, while long term rewards are only a vague blur.
I prelog all my eating. To me, that sounds like planning. Agreed?
When I get the sherbet, I see the dutch chocolate ice cream. When I get the strawberries, I see the cheese. When I get tuna, I see the cookies and peanut butter cups. I exert self-control when I forego those potentially more attractive options and stick to what I've planned. I do definitely suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense.
I don't view it in terms of being a "bad person." I view it in terms of being a person who's focused on his goals. Now, that means sticking with food choices that better fit those goals. Previously, it had been sticking with academic work instead of going to a bar. Or focusing on learning a programming language instead of watching TV. Or focusing on the yard work that needed to be done instead of sitting down to play WoW. It isn't about being a good or bad person, to me. It's about living up to my expectations for myself.
I find your discussion of focusing on goals far more useful than I would a response like "You're an adult; have some self control."
The answers I found useful were "I" statements and the answers I find unhelpful are "you" statements. "Be more goal-oriented" might be ok if followed up with "I" statement examples like what you gave.
Again, maybe give answers you think are helpful and others will do the same. If you don't find "you" statements helpful, move past them to the "I" statements.
OP's been asked what would be more helpful and, unless I missed it, hasn't shared that info.
Lol. We discussed different ways of discussing goals, that doesn't mean we don't agree on the *separate points* we each made. I actually do agree with @kshama2001 re I statements vs. You statements. I was talking about "entity" vs "process" based concepts.
What about the idea that the entity is comprised by processes? (Just a difference in POV)
"I think, therefore I am" is about as central as we're able to manage. That's the entity. That's the level at which personal responsibility, mens rea, etc. attach.0 -
The OP @fishshark did come back to clarify quite a bit on the first page. She did appreciate the tips I provided on HOW willpower can be strengthened, encouraged, extended, rather than the condescending (her words not mine) "have more willpower".0
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Well, sometimes it boils down to just not eating more if you want toose weight. That is not easy but necessary.not sure if its because I got 3 hours of sleep due to a sewage like breaking under my house haha buuut. I find the responses of "will power" and "self control" so aggravating. So when you gained weight you activly chose to over eat and gain weight. Those things are learned over time after trial and error of adapting CICO. Ive said it before, if it were as easy as self control then id just about assume no one on the planet would ever gain weight or fall victim to bad choices.
Self control and willpower are something you do have to actively use. I don't believe most people who say they have no willpower. People truly without willpower and little self control have a pretty hard time socially not just with food.
You can use strategies to help yourself out like figuring out the right number of calories for your activity level, planning meals and snacks, pre-logging your food, not buying problem foods or only buying or making small portions of foods you tend to overeat. You can keep busy with other activities. You can get therapy or medication. It takes work for most of us here to lose weight.0 -
SingRunTing wrote: »Another suggestion is to read the book "The Power of Habit" by Charles Duhigg. Really interesting stuff. It talks about how habits work and that you can set off a subconscious just by being exposed to a cue. It also explains how to reprogram your habits. Once again, it's simple, but not easy. Really great read though. Here's a peak:
https://experiencelife.com/article/the-power-of-habit/
Thanks, I enjoyed the "habit" read.
0 -
DeguelloTex wrote: »
Unless you know of some way to rewire the biochemical processes in the brain which give rise to consciousness, no, it isn't just a difference in point of view.DeguelloTex wrote: »
Given that all processes fall back on the entity anyway, I'm more entity-based. Processes don't operate themselves.DeguelloTex wrote: »
You and @tomatoey can't even agree on the value of "be more goal-oriented."kshama2001 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
If you think "be more goal-oriented" wouldn't be the next "condescending" answer -- "of course I have goals, do you think I'm stupid?!?!" -- you're more optimistic than I am. Even leaving aside that not everyone view settings goals with the same degree of approval, kinda like with exercising self-control.kshama2001 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
That's not how I see it at all.kommodevaran wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
How do you distinguish the implementation of "planning" from the implementation of "self-control"?DeguelloTex wrote: »
Does being easier for some people than others rule out "self-control" as what needs to happen?not sure if its because I got 3 hours of sleep due to a sewage like breaking under my house haha buuut. I find the responses of "will power" and "self control" so aggravating. So when you gained weight you activly chose to over eat and gain weight. Those things are learned over time after trial and error of adapting CICO. Ive said it before, if it were as easy as self control then id just about assume no one on the planet would ever gain weight or fall victim to bad choices.
Yes, I actively chose to overeat. Nobody held my mouth open and shoved food down my gullet. I did it all myself. Not my finest accomplishment but I did it all myself. Whether or not I did it to purposely gain weight (i.e., actively choosing to gain weight) or not, I chose to eat enough to gain weight. I made bad choices but I was not a victim.
Not sure why it's so aggravating to read the truth.
oh the truth isnt aggravating, but telling someone to have self control is an obvious statement. It is not helpful when they clearly know they lack in that department. When im watching football i should probably have self control when drinking beer but I dont because I enjoy it. I obviously know i should... and telling me to have it doesnt help me in anyway. Im sure there are many people on this site that lack self control in one aspect or another in their life.
But what else are we supposed to do? The alternative is to say "You poor thing. You are a victim. Your overeating patterns and weight gain are due to no fault of your own. Attempting to control yourself is futile. A lifetime of obesity is inevitable. Give up now."
I don't think so, I think the 3rd option is recognizing reasons for overeating in the past and planning to prevent that happening in future. I don't think of it in terms of "self-control" at all. Or maybe, in the sense that with knowledge and experience, you can minimize vulnerability.
yea i dont expect any one to coddle me or anyone else on this site... i just dont really like to see people stating the obvious when self control isnt as easy as snapping a finger.
"Self-control" is easier for some people than others for a HOST of very individual biological and psychological and environmental reasons. Have a problem with blood sugar, PCOS, thyroid, whatever? It's going to be different for you, and it's only by learning different practical strategies that "self-control" is going to be possible.
Great thoughts & links, @jgnatca
"Planning " is a word & framework I prefer. For me the idea of "self-control" is loaded with a whack of moral baggage & judgement I personally find unhelpful. Some people do find it helpful & empowering, they should use that idea. But they shouldn't impose it on others if it's not helpful for them
You didn't ask me, but I'd like to answer what I think: Planning is the act of, in a calm and relaxed state of mind, carefully weighing pros and cons, deliberately deciding to do something that you feel will be good for you (and maybe those close to you), ethically sound, but without any heavy moral judgement - short term as well as long term. Exerting self-control is forcing yourself to do (or don't do) something you don't want to (or want to), telling yourself you're a bad person if you mess up now, trying to suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense, while long term rewards are only a vague blur.
I prelog all my eating. To me, that sounds like planning. Agreed?
When I get the sherbet, I see the dutch chocolate ice cream. When I get the strawberries, I see the cheese. When I get tuna, I see the cookies and peanut butter cups. I exert self-control when I forego those potentially more attractive options and stick to what I've planned. I do definitely suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense.
I don't view it in terms of being a "bad person." I view it in terms of being a person who's focused on his goals. Now, that means sticking with food choices that better fit those goals. Previously, it had been sticking with academic work instead of going to a bar. Or focusing on learning a programming language instead of watching TV. Or focusing on the yard work that needed to be done instead of sitting down to play WoW. It isn't about being a good or bad person, to me. It's about living up to my expectations for myself.
I find your discussion of focusing on goals far more useful than I would a response like "You're an adult; have some self control."
The answers I found useful were "I" statements and the answers I find unhelpful are "you" statements. "Be more goal-oriented" might be ok if followed up with "I" statement examples like what you gave.
Again, maybe give answers you think are helpful and others will do the same. If you don't find "you" statements helpful, move past them to the "I" statements.
OP's been asked what would be more helpful and, unless I missed it, hasn't shared that info.
Lol. We discussed different ways of discussing goals, that doesn't mean we don't agree on the *separate points* we each made. I actually do agree with @kshama2001 re I statements vs. You statements. I was talking about "entity" vs "process" based concepts.
What about the idea that the entity is comprised by processes? (Just a difference in POV)
"I think, therefore I am" is about as central as we're able to manage. That's the entity. That's the level at which personal responsibility, mens rea, etc. attach.
This is entirely arguable. If I had more time today, I would argue against it. But the Cartesian self is an anachronism.0 -
I don't mean the Cartesian self, particularly in a scientific sense, but, again, unless you have some way of modifying the processes which generate consciousness, the consciousness of the entity is fundamental, foundational, and precedes any conscious processes implemented by that entity.DeguelloTex wrote: »
Unless you know of some way to rewire the biochemical processes in the brain which give rise to consciousness, no, it isn't just a difference in point of view.DeguelloTex wrote: »
Given that all processes fall back on the entity anyway, I'm more entity-based. Processes don't operate themselves.DeguelloTex wrote: »
You and @tomatoey can't even agree on the value of "be more goal-oriented."kshama2001 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
If you think "be more goal-oriented" wouldn't be the next "condescending" answer -- "of course I have goals, do you think I'm stupid?!?!" -- you're more optimistic than I am. Even leaving aside that not everyone view settings goals with the same degree of approval, kinda like with exercising self-control.kshama2001 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
That's not how I see it at all.kommodevaran wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
How do you distinguish the implementation of "planning" from the implementation of "self-control"?DeguelloTex wrote: »
Does being easier for some people than others rule out "self-control" as what needs to happen?not sure if its because I got 3 hours of sleep due to a sewage like breaking under my house haha buuut. I find the responses of "will power" and "self control" so aggravating. So when you gained weight you activly chose to over eat and gain weight. Those things are learned over time after trial and error of adapting CICO. Ive said it before, if it were as easy as self control then id just about assume no one on the planet would ever gain weight or fall victim to bad choices.
Yes, I actively chose to overeat. Nobody held my mouth open and shoved food down my gullet. I did it all myself. Not my finest accomplishment but I did it all myself. Whether or not I did it to purposely gain weight (i.e., actively choosing to gain weight) or not, I chose to eat enough to gain weight. I made bad choices but I was not a victim.
Not sure why it's so aggravating to read the truth.
oh the truth isnt aggravating, but telling someone to have self control is an obvious statement. It is not helpful when they clearly know they lack in that department. When im watching football i should probably have self control when drinking beer but I dont because I enjoy it. I obviously know i should... and telling me to have it doesnt help me in anyway. Im sure there are many people on this site that lack self control in one aspect or another in their life.
But what else are we supposed to do? The alternative is to say "You poor thing. You are a victim. Your overeating patterns and weight gain are due to no fault of your own. Attempting to control yourself is futile. A lifetime of obesity is inevitable. Give up now."
I don't think so, I think the 3rd option is recognizing reasons for overeating in the past and planning to prevent that happening in future. I don't think of it in terms of "self-control" at all. Or maybe, in the sense that with knowledge and experience, you can minimize vulnerability.
yea i dont expect any one to coddle me or anyone else on this site... i just dont really like to see people stating the obvious when self control isnt as easy as snapping a finger.
"Self-control" is easier for some people than others for a HOST of very individual biological and psychological and environmental reasons. Have a problem with blood sugar, PCOS, thyroid, whatever? It's going to be different for you, and it's only by learning different practical strategies that "self-control" is going to be possible.
Great thoughts & links, @jgnatca
"Planning " is a word & framework I prefer. For me the idea of "self-control" is loaded with a whack of moral baggage & judgement I personally find unhelpful. Some people do find it helpful & empowering, they should use that idea. But they shouldn't impose it on others if it's not helpful for them
You didn't ask me, but I'd like to answer what I think: Planning is the act of, in a calm and relaxed state of mind, carefully weighing pros and cons, deliberately deciding to do something that you feel will be good for you (and maybe those close to you), ethically sound, but without any heavy moral judgement - short term as well as long term. Exerting self-control is forcing yourself to do (or don't do) something you don't want to (or want to), telling yourself you're a bad person if you mess up now, trying to suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense, while long term rewards are only a vague blur.
I prelog all my eating. To me, that sounds like planning. Agreed?
When I get the sherbet, I see the dutch chocolate ice cream. When I get the strawberries, I see the cheese. When I get tuna, I see the cookies and peanut butter cups. I exert self-control when I forego those potentially more attractive options and stick to what I've planned. I do definitely suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense.
I don't view it in terms of being a "bad person." I view it in terms of being a person who's focused on his goals. Now, that means sticking with food choices that better fit those goals. Previously, it had been sticking with academic work instead of going to a bar. Or focusing on learning a programming language instead of watching TV. Or focusing on the yard work that needed to be done instead of sitting down to play WoW. It isn't about being a good or bad person, to me. It's about living up to my expectations for myself.
I find your discussion of focusing on goals far more useful than I would a response like "You're an adult; have some self control."
The answers I found useful were "I" statements and the answers I find unhelpful are "you" statements. "Be more goal-oriented" might be ok if followed up with "I" statement examples like what you gave.
Again, maybe give answers you think are helpful and others will do the same. If you don't find "you" statements helpful, move past them to the "I" statements.
OP's been asked what would be more helpful and, unless I missed it, hasn't shared that info.
Lol. We discussed different ways of discussing goals, that doesn't mean we don't agree on the *separate points* we each made. I actually do agree with @kshama2001 re I statements vs. You statements. I was talking about "entity" vs "process" based concepts.
What about the idea that the entity is comprised by processes? (Just a difference in POV)
"I think, therefore I am" is about as central as we're able to manage. That's the entity. That's the level at which personal responsibility, mens rea, etc. attach.
This is entirely arguable. If I had more time today, I would argue against it. But the Cartesian self is an anachronism.
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