i just cant...
Replies
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DeguelloTex wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »I didn't actively choose to do it, I just didn't actively choose not to do it.
If it's not self-control, what is it?
just dont think its that easy especially for people just starting out. If there is guacamole in front of me iwill eat all of it. lack of self control probably. people that have spent years of over eating have a hard time just being like yea man self control.
Very few people say it's easy. That it's not easy doesn't make it wrong, does it?
I will be the first to say that it definitely is not easy. I do not like exercising, but I do it 6 days a week. The food part for me is not that difficult though. When I weigh out the pros and cons of eating a 1000 calorie meal that is full of fat and sodium, like I used to do, I know that it is not worth it so I don't. I have lost a lot and I still have a lot to go. I try not to sit around pontificating on how I allowed myself to be so out of control and gain so much weight. I just focus on doing the best I can everyday and go from there.0 -
DeguelloTex wrote: »
That's not how I see it at all.kommodevaran wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
How do you distinguish the implementation of "planning" from the implementation of "self-control"?DeguelloTex wrote: »
Does being easier for some people than others rule out "self-control" as what needs to happen?not sure if its because I got 3 hours of sleep due to a sewage like breaking under my house haha buuut. I find the responses of "will power" and "self control" so aggravating. So when you gained weight you activly chose to over eat and gain weight. Those things are learned over time after trial and error of adapting CICO. Ive said it before, if it were as easy as self control then id just about assume no one on the planet would ever gain weight or fall victim to bad choices.
Yes, I actively chose to overeat. Nobody held my mouth open and shoved food down my gullet. I did it all myself. Not my finest accomplishment but I did it all myself. Whether or not I did it to purposely gain weight (i.e., actively choosing to gain weight) or not, I chose to eat enough to gain weight. I made bad choices but I was not a victim.
Not sure why it's so aggravating to read the truth.
oh the truth isnt aggravating, but telling someone to have self control is an obvious statement. It is not helpful when they clearly know they lack in that department. When im watching football i should probably have self control when drinking beer but I dont because I enjoy it. I obviously know i should... and telling me to have it doesnt help me in anyway. Im sure there are many people on this site that lack self control in one aspect or another in their life.
But what else are we supposed to do? The alternative is to say "You poor thing. You are a victim. Your overeating patterns and weight gain are due to no fault of your own. Attempting to control yourself is futile. A lifetime of obesity is inevitable. Give up now."
I don't think so, I think the 3rd option is recognizing reasons for overeating in the past and planning to prevent that happening in future. I don't think of it in terms of "self-control" at all. Or maybe, in the sense that with knowledge and experience, you can minimize vulnerability.
yea i dont expect any one to coddle me or anyone else on this site... i just dont really like to see people stating the obvious when self control isnt as easy as snapping a finger.
"Self-control" is easier for some people than others for a HOST of very individual biological and psychological and environmental reasons. Have a problem with blood sugar, PCOS, thyroid, whatever? It's going to be different for you, and it's only by learning different practical strategies that "self-control" is going to be possible.
Great thoughts & links, @jgnatca
"Planning " is a word & framework I prefer. For me the idea of "self-control" is loaded with a whack of moral baggage & judgement I personally find unhelpful. Some people do find it helpful & empowering, they should use that idea. But they shouldn't impose it on others if it's not helpful for them
You didn't ask me, but I'd like to answer what I think: Planning is the act of, in a calm and relaxed state of mind, carefully weighing pros and cons, deliberately deciding to do something that you feel will be good for you (and maybe those close to you), ethically sound, but without any heavy moral judgement - short term as well as long term. Exerting self-control is forcing yourself to do (or don't do) something you don't want to (or want to), telling yourself you're a bad person if you mess up now, trying to suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense, while long term rewards are only a vague blur.
I prelog all my eating. To me, that sounds like planning. Agreed?
When I get the sherbet, I see the dutch chocolate ice cream. When I get the strawberries, I see the cheese. When I get tuna, I see the cookies and peanut butter cups. I exert self-control when I forego those potentially more attractive options and stick to what I've planned. I do definitely suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense.
I don't view it in terms of being a "bad person." I view it in terms of being a person who's focused on his goals. Now, that means sticking with food choices that better fit those goals. Previously, it had been sticking with academic work instead of going to a bar. Or focusing on learning a programming language instead of watching TV. Or focusing on the yard work that needed to be done instead of sitting down to play WoW. It isn't about being a good or bad person, to me. It's about living up to my expectations for myself.
I find your discussion of focusing on goals far more useful than I would a response like "You're an adult; have some self control."0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
That's not how I see it at all.kommodevaran wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
How do you distinguish the implementation of "planning" from the implementation of "self-control"?DeguelloTex wrote: »
Does being easier for some people than others rule out "self-control" as what needs to happen?not sure if its because I got 3 hours of sleep due to a sewage like breaking under my house haha buuut. I find the responses of "will power" and "self control" so aggravating. So when you gained weight you activly chose to over eat and gain weight. Those things are learned over time after trial and error of adapting CICO. Ive said it before, if it were as easy as self control then id just about assume no one on the planet would ever gain weight or fall victim to bad choices.
Yes, I actively chose to overeat. Nobody held my mouth open and shoved food down my gullet. I did it all myself. Not my finest accomplishment but I did it all myself. Whether or not I did it to purposely gain weight (i.e., actively choosing to gain weight) or not, I chose to eat enough to gain weight. I made bad choices but I was not a victim.
Not sure why it's so aggravating to read the truth.
oh the truth isnt aggravating, but telling someone to have self control is an obvious statement. It is not helpful when they clearly know they lack in that department. When im watching football i should probably have self control when drinking beer but I dont because I enjoy it. I obviously know i should... and telling me to have it doesnt help me in anyway. Im sure there are many people on this site that lack self control in one aspect or another in their life.
But what else are we supposed to do? The alternative is to say "You poor thing. You are a victim. Your overeating patterns and weight gain are due to no fault of your own. Attempting to control yourself is futile. A lifetime of obesity is inevitable. Give up now."
I don't think so, I think the 3rd option is recognizing reasons for overeating in the past and planning to prevent that happening in future. I don't think of it in terms of "self-control" at all. Or maybe, in the sense that with knowledge and experience, you can minimize vulnerability.
yea i dont expect any one to coddle me or anyone else on this site... i just dont really like to see people stating the obvious when self control isnt as easy as snapping a finger.
"Self-control" is easier for some people than others for a HOST of very individual biological and psychological and environmental reasons. Have a problem with blood sugar, PCOS, thyroid, whatever? It's going to be different for you, and it's only by learning different practical strategies that "self-control" is going to be possible.
Great thoughts & links, @jgnatca
"Planning " is a word & framework I prefer. For me the idea of "self-control" is loaded with a whack of moral baggage & judgement I personally find unhelpful. Some people do find it helpful & empowering, they should use that idea. But they shouldn't impose it on others if it's not helpful for them
You didn't ask me, but I'd like to answer what I think: Planning is the act of, in a calm and relaxed state of mind, carefully weighing pros and cons, deliberately deciding to do something that you feel will be good for you (and maybe those close to you), ethically sound, but without any heavy moral judgement - short term as well as long term. Exerting self-control is forcing yourself to do (or don't do) something you don't want to (or want to), telling yourself you're a bad person if you mess up now, trying to suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense, while long term rewards are only a vague blur.
I prelog all my eating. To me, that sounds like planning. Agreed?
When I get the sherbet, I see the dutch chocolate ice cream. When I get the strawberries, I see the cheese. When I get tuna, I see the cookies and peanut butter cups. I exert self-control when I forego those potentially more attractive options and stick to what I've planned. I do definitely suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense.
I don't view it in terms of being a "bad person." I view it in terms of being a person who's focused on his goals. Now, that means sticking with food choices that better fit those goals. Previously, it had been sticking with academic work instead of going to a bar. Or focusing on learning a programming language instead of watching TV. Or focusing on the yard work that needed to be done instead of sitting down to play WoW. It isn't about being a good or bad person, to me. It's about living up to my expectations for myself.
I find your discussion of focusing on goals far more useful than I would a response like "You're an adult; have some self control."
+1.0 -
I’m one of those people who would say it’s easy, but that’s only because of the multiple steps I took over 15 years+. In 1998, when I stopped drinking full calorie soda. In 1999, when I joined the Army and found out I can run more than a mile. In 2004 when I learned about what reasonable portion sizes are. In 2008, when I first logged in a food diary, and weighed food and learned about how many calories I ate. In 2012, when I discovered a passion for cycling.
Finally, in 2015, when I learned that I cannot blame my genes or others for my weight. Also learned that I do not need to prohibit any food from my life, I just need to regulate and log it.
All the pieces have seemed to come together.
I believe that until people realize that they can only blame themselves, they aren’t going to be successful. Another way to put that is it comes down to self-control. Yes, it doesn’t come right away, but it still comes down to the same issue.
Good luck.
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Therealobi1 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
Doesn't that kind of beg the question, though? I mean, yeah, if your premise is that there isn't enough willpower to make it through the day then, yeah, there isn't enough willpower to make it through the day.kommodevaran wrote: »I dislike the concept of willpower when it comes to not eating too much of ubiquitous tempting food. We have only a certain amount of willpower, it gets depleted through the day, and it needs to be used economically. I like the idea of skillpower, the ability to build good habits, reduce exposure, and find ways to stay occupied doing things that not involve food.
Even presuming that's true, though, it doesn't mean that willpower isn't the answer, it just means that you want to try to organize your environment such that whatever amount of willpower you have is sufficient, right? If you want to call that "skillpower," whatever, but doesn't it ultimately come down to making your willpower last long enough?
Sure, but like @tomatoey said, a useful post is one that includes "breaking down the "baby steps" that make "self-control" more achievable, vs. looking at it like some kind of inborn character trait."
an inborn character trait that occurs once you hit adult hood
Except we know from the marshmallow studies that children exercise it with various levels of success. I suggest rather that we hold people accountable for it once they hit adulthood.0 -
If you think "be more goal-oriented" wouldn't be the next "condescending" answer -- "of course I have goals, do you think I'm stupid?!?!" -- you're more optimistic than I am. Even leaving aside that not everyone view settings goals with the same degree of approval, kinda like with exercising self-control.kshama2001 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
That's not how I see it at all.kommodevaran wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
How do you distinguish the implementation of "planning" from the implementation of "self-control"?DeguelloTex wrote: »
Does being easier for some people than others rule out "self-control" as what needs to happen?not sure if its because I got 3 hours of sleep due to a sewage like breaking under my house haha buuut. I find the responses of "will power" and "self control" so aggravating. So when you gained weight you activly chose to over eat and gain weight. Those things are learned over time after trial and error of adapting CICO. Ive said it before, if it were as easy as self control then id just about assume no one on the planet would ever gain weight or fall victim to bad choices.
Yes, I actively chose to overeat. Nobody held my mouth open and shoved food down my gullet. I did it all myself. Not my finest accomplishment but I did it all myself. Whether or not I did it to purposely gain weight (i.e., actively choosing to gain weight) or not, I chose to eat enough to gain weight. I made bad choices but I was not a victim.
Not sure why it's so aggravating to read the truth.
oh the truth isnt aggravating, but telling someone to have self control is an obvious statement. It is not helpful when they clearly know they lack in that department. When im watching football i should probably have self control when drinking beer but I dont because I enjoy it. I obviously know i should... and telling me to have it doesnt help me in anyway. Im sure there are many people on this site that lack self control in one aspect or another in their life.
But what else are we supposed to do? The alternative is to say "You poor thing. You are a victim. Your overeating patterns and weight gain are due to no fault of your own. Attempting to control yourself is futile. A lifetime of obesity is inevitable. Give up now."
I don't think so, I think the 3rd option is recognizing reasons for overeating in the past and planning to prevent that happening in future. I don't think of it in terms of "self-control" at all. Or maybe, in the sense that with knowledge and experience, you can minimize vulnerability.
yea i dont expect any one to coddle me or anyone else on this site... i just dont really like to see people stating the obvious when self control isnt as easy as snapping a finger.
"Self-control" is easier for some people than others for a HOST of very individual biological and psychological and environmental reasons. Have a problem with blood sugar, PCOS, thyroid, whatever? It's going to be different for you, and it's only by learning different practical strategies that "self-control" is going to be possible.
Great thoughts & links, @jgnatca
"Planning " is a word & framework I prefer. For me the idea of "self-control" is loaded with a whack of moral baggage & judgement I personally find unhelpful. Some people do find it helpful & empowering, they should use that idea. But they shouldn't impose it on others if it's not helpful for them
You didn't ask me, but I'd like to answer what I think: Planning is the act of, in a calm and relaxed state of mind, carefully weighing pros and cons, deliberately deciding to do something that you feel will be good for you (and maybe those close to you), ethically sound, but without any heavy moral judgement - short term as well as long term. Exerting self-control is forcing yourself to do (or don't do) something you don't want to (or want to), telling yourself you're a bad person if you mess up now, trying to suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense, while long term rewards are only a vague blur.
I prelog all my eating. To me, that sounds like planning. Agreed?
When I get the sherbet, I see the dutch chocolate ice cream. When I get the strawberries, I see the cheese. When I get tuna, I see the cookies and peanut butter cups. I exert self-control when I forego those potentially more attractive options and stick to what I've planned. I do definitely suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense.
I don't view it in terms of being a "bad person." I view it in terms of being a person who's focused on his goals. Now, that means sticking with food choices that better fit those goals. Previously, it had been sticking with academic work instead of going to a bar. Or focusing on learning a programming language instead of watching TV. Or focusing on the yard work that needed to be done instead of sitting down to play WoW. It isn't about being a good or bad person, to me. It's about living up to my expectations for myself.
I find your discussion of focusing on goals far more useful than I would a response like "You're an adult; have some self control."0 -
I think what's most frustrating about getting responses like "self control" and "will power" is their simplicity. Losing weight really is as simple as excercising self control and burning more calories than you ingest. But oftentimes people are striving for a magical solution or profound advice, and sometimes it's just not there. With weight loss you just have to do it and stick to your plan. I used to struggle a lot with self control particularly when I was in college with an abundance of bad food choices and going out to the bars every week. What I've learned is that I just didn't value losing weight enough. Until you are absolutely determined to lose the weight, whether through hell or high water, no amount of kind words from others is going to force you to do it. Losing weight is going to become more important than eating the cookie, and you'll put it back, or just have one, instead of devouring the whole batch. And that motivation has to come from within, from focusing on whatever reasons are motivating you to try to lose weight in the first place. Friends and family cannot motivate you, and that's often why people who undergo dieting solely based on doctors orders or a disgruntled spouse, without truly having their heart in it, fail. To lose weight you have to want it more than anything else and have a rock solid plan in place for achieving it, complete with knowing your own weaknesses and designing strategies to combat those "give in" moments.0
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DeguelloTex wrote: »
If you think "be more goal-oriented" wouldn't be the next "condescending" answer -- "of course I have goals, do you think I'm stupid?!?!" -- you're more optimistic than I am. Even leaving aside that not everyone view settings goals with the same degree of approval, kinda like with exercising self-control.kshama2001 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
That's not how I see it at all.kommodevaran wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
How do you distinguish the implementation of "planning" from the implementation of "self-control"?DeguelloTex wrote: »
Does being easier for some people than others rule out "self-control" as what needs to happen?not sure if its because I got 3 hours of sleep due to a sewage like breaking under my house haha buuut. I find the responses of "will power" and "self control" so aggravating. So when you gained weight you activly chose to over eat and gain weight. Those things are learned over time after trial and error of adapting CICO. Ive said it before, if it were as easy as self control then id just about assume no one on the planet would ever gain weight or fall victim to bad choices.
Yes, I actively chose to overeat. Nobody held my mouth open and shoved food down my gullet. I did it all myself. Not my finest accomplishment but I did it all myself. Whether or not I did it to purposely gain weight (i.e., actively choosing to gain weight) or not, I chose to eat enough to gain weight. I made bad choices but I was not a victim.
Not sure why it's so aggravating to read the truth.
oh the truth isnt aggravating, but telling someone to have self control is an obvious statement. It is not helpful when they clearly know they lack in that department. When im watching football i should probably have self control when drinking beer but I dont because I enjoy it. I obviously know i should... and telling me to have it doesnt help me in anyway. Im sure there are many people on this site that lack self control in one aspect or another in their life.
But what else are we supposed to do? The alternative is to say "You poor thing. You are a victim. Your overeating patterns and weight gain are due to no fault of your own. Attempting to control yourself is futile. A lifetime of obesity is inevitable. Give up now."
I don't think so, I think the 3rd option is recognizing reasons for overeating in the past and planning to prevent that happening in future. I don't think of it in terms of "self-control" at all. Or maybe, in the sense that with knowledge and experience, you can minimize vulnerability.
yea i dont expect any one to coddle me or anyone else on this site... i just dont really like to see people stating the obvious when self control isnt as easy as snapping a finger.
"Self-control" is easier for some people than others for a HOST of very individual biological and psychological and environmental reasons. Have a problem with blood sugar, PCOS, thyroid, whatever? It's going to be different for you, and it's only by learning different practical strategies that "self-control" is going to be possible.
Great thoughts & links, @jgnatca
"Planning " is a word & framework I prefer. For me the idea of "self-control" is loaded with a whack of moral baggage & judgement I personally find unhelpful. Some people do find it helpful & empowering, they should use that idea. But they shouldn't impose it on others if it's not helpful for them
You didn't ask me, but I'd like to answer what I think: Planning is the act of, in a calm and relaxed state of mind, carefully weighing pros and cons, deliberately deciding to do something that you feel will be good for you (and maybe those close to you), ethically sound, but without any heavy moral judgement - short term as well as long term. Exerting self-control is forcing yourself to do (or don't do) something you don't want to (or want to), telling yourself you're a bad person if you mess up now, trying to suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense, while long term rewards are only a vague blur.
I prelog all my eating. To me, that sounds like planning. Agreed?
When I get the sherbet, I see the dutch chocolate ice cream. When I get the strawberries, I see the cheese. When I get tuna, I see the cookies and peanut butter cups. I exert self-control when I forego those potentially more attractive options and stick to what I've planned. I do definitely suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense.
I don't view it in terms of being a "bad person." I view it in terms of being a person who's focused on his goals. Now, that means sticking with food choices that better fit those goals. Previously, it had been sticking with academic work instead of going to a bar. Or focusing on learning a programming language instead of watching TV. Or focusing on the yard work that needed to be done instead of sitting down to play WoW. It isn't about being a good or bad person, to me. It's about living up to my expectations for myself.
I find your discussion of focusing on goals far more useful than I would a response like "You're an adult; have some self control."
Again though it's not "be more goal-oriented" - that means being another kind of person - as much as "what about tweaking your goals in this way" or "here are some tips you can use to achieve your goals"
Goal-setting - as a behaviour, vs. being a kind of person who does it - imo is way more value-neutral than char acter-based ideas. I don't think anyone's going to have a problem with talking about goals.0 -
DeguelloTex wrote: »
If you think "be more goal-oriented" wouldn't be the next "condescending" answer -- "of course I have goals, do you think I'm stupid?!?!" -- you're more optimistic than I am. Even leaving aside that not everyone view settings goals with the same degree of approval, kinda like with exercising self-control.kshama2001 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
That's not how I see it at all.kommodevaran wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
How do you distinguish the implementation of "planning" from the implementation of "self-control"?DeguelloTex wrote: »
Does being easier for some people than others rule out "self-control" as what needs to happen?not sure if its because I got 3 hours of sleep due to a sewage like breaking under my house haha buuut. I find the responses of "will power" and "self control" so aggravating. So when you gained weight you activly chose to over eat and gain weight. Those things are learned over time after trial and error of adapting CICO. Ive said it before, if it were as easy as self control then id just about assume no one on the planet would ever gain weight or fall victim to bad choices.
Yes, I actively chose to overeat. Nobody held my mouth open and shoved food down my gullet. I did it all myself. Not my finest accomplishment but I did it all myself. Whether or not I did it to purposely gain weight (i.e., actively choosing to gain weight) or not, I chose to eat enough to gain weight. I made bad choices but I was not a victim.
Not sure why it's so aggravating to read the truth.
oh the truth isnt aggravating, but telling someone to have self control is an obvious statement. It is not helpful when they clearly know they lack in that department. When im watching football i should probably have self control when drinking beer but I dont because I enjoy it. I obviously know i should... and telling me to have it doesnt help me in anyway. Im sure there are many people on this site that lack self control in one aspect or another in their life.
But what else are we supposed to do? The alternative is to say "You poor thing. You are a victim. Your overeating patterns and weight gain are due to no fault of your own. Attempting to control yourself is futile. A lifetime of obesity is inevitable. Give up now."
I don't think so, I think the 3rd option is recognizing reasons for overeating in the past and planning to prevent that happening in future. I don't think of it in terms of "self-control" at all. Or maybe, in the sense that with knowledge and experience, you can minimize vulnerability.
yea i dont expect any one to coddle me or anyone else on this site... i just dont really like to see people stating the obvious when self control isnt as easy as snapping a finger.
"Self-control" is easier for some people than others for a HOST of very individual biological and psychological and environmental reasons. Have a problem with blood sugar, PCOS, thyroid, whatever? It's going to be different for you, and it's only by learning different practical strategies that "self-control" is going to be possible.
Great thoughts & links, @jgnatca
"Planning " is a word & framework I prefer. For me the idea of "self-control" is loaded with a whack of moral baggage & judgement I personally find unhelpful. Some people do find it helpful & empowering, they should use that idea. But they shouldn't impose it on others if it's not helpful for them
You didn't ask me, but I'd like to answer what I think: Planning is the act of, in a calm and relaxed state of mind, carefully weighing pros and cons, deliberately deciding to do something that you feel will be good for you (and maybe those close to you), ethically sound, but without any heavy moral judgement - short term as well as long term. Exerting self-control is forcing yourself to do (or don't do) something you don't want to (or want to), telling yourself you're a bad person if you mess up now, trying to suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense, while long term rewards are only a vague blur.
I prelog all my eating. To me, that sounds like planning. Agreed?
When I get the sherbet, I see the dutch chocolate ice cream. When I get the strawberries, I see the cheese. When I get tuna, I see the cookies and peanut butter cups. I exert self-control when I forego those potentially more attractive options and stick to what I've planned. I do definitely suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense.
I don't view it in terms of being a "bad person." I view it in terms of being a person who's focused on his goals. Now, that means sticking with food choices that better fit those goals. Previously, it had been sticking with academic work instead of going to a bar. Or focusing on learning a programming language instead of watching TV. Or focusing on the yard work that needed to be done instead of sitting down to play WoW. It isn't about being a good or bad person, to me. It's about living up to my expectations for myself.
I find your discussion of focusing on goals far more useful than I would a response like "You're an adult; have some self control."
The answers I found useful were "I" statements and the answers I find unhelpful are "you" statements. "Be more goal-oriented" might be ok if followed up with "I" statement examples like what you gave.0 -
You and @tomatoey can't even agree on the value of "be more goal-oriented."kshama2001 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
If you think "be more goal-oriented" wouldn't be the next "condescending" answer -- "of course I have goals, do you think I'm stupid?!?!" -- you're more optimistic than I am. Even leaving aside that not everyone view settings goals with the same degree of approval, kinda like with exercising self-control.kshama2001 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
That's not how I see it at all.kommodevaran wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
How do you distinguish the implementation of "planning" from the implementation of "self-control"?DeguelloTex wrote: »
Does being easier for some people than others rule out "self-control" as what needs to happen?not sure if its because I got 3 hours of sleep due to a sewage like breaking under my house haha buuut. I find the responses of "will power" and "self control" so aggravating. So when you gained weight you activly chose to over eat and gain weight. Those things are learned over time after trial and error of adapting CICO. Ive said it before, if it were as easy as self control then id just about assume no one on the planet would ever gain weight or fall victim to bad choices.
Yes, I actively chose to overeat. Nobody held my mouth open and shoved food down my gullet. I did it all myself. Not my finest accomplishment but I did it all myself. Whether or not I did it to purposely gain weight (i.e., actively choosing to gain weight) or not, I chose to eat enough to gain weight. I made bad choices but I was not a victim.
Not sure why it's so aggravating to read the truth.
oh the truth isnt aggravating, but telling someone to have self control is an obvious statement. It is not helpful when they clearly know they lack in that department. When im watching football i should probably have self control when drinking beer but I dont because I enjoy it. I obviously know i should... and telling me to have it doesnt help me in anyway. Im sure there are many people on this site that lack self control in one aspect or another in their life.
But what else are we supposed to do? The alternative is to say "You poor thing. You are a victim. Your overeating patterns and weight gain are due to no fault of your own. Attempting to control yourself is futile. A lifetime of obesity is inevitable. Give up now."
I don't think so, I think the 3rd option is recognizing reasons for overeating in the past and planning to prevent that happening in future. I don't think of it in terms of "self-control" at all. Or maybe, in the sense that with knowledge and experience, you can minimize vulnerability.
yea i dont expect any one to coddle me or anyone else on this site... i just dont really like to see people stating the obvious when self control isnt as easy as snapping a finger.
"Self-control" is easier for some people than others for a HOST of very individual biological and psychological and environmental reasons. Have a problem with blood sugar, PCOS, thyroid, whatever? It's going to be different for you, and it's only by learning different practical strategies that "self-control" is going to be possible.
Great thoughts & links, @jgnatca
"Planning " is a word & framework I prefer. For me the idea of "self-control" is loaded with a whack of moral baggage & judgement I personally find unhelpful. Some people do find it helpful & empowering, they should use that idea. But they shouldn't impose it on others if it's not helpful for them
You didn't ask me, but I'd like to answer what I think: Planning is the act of, in a calm and relaxed state of mind, carefully weighing pros and cons, deliberately deciding to do something that you feel will be good for you (and maybe those close to you), ethically sound, but without any heavy moral judgement - short term as well as long term. Exerting self-control is forcing yourself to do (or don't do) something you don't want to (or want to), telling yourself you're a bad person if you mess up now, trying to suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense, while long term rewards are only a vague blur.
I prelog all my eating. To me, that sounds like planning. Agreed?
When I get the sherbet, I see the dutch chocolate ice cream. When I get the strawberries, I see the cheese. When I get tuna, I see the cookies and peanut butter cups. I exert self-control when I forego those potentially more attractive options and stick to what I've planned. I do definitely suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense.
I don't view it in terms of being a "bad person." I view it in terms of being a person who's focused on his goals. Now, that means sticking with food choices that better fit those goals. Previously, it had been sticking with academic work instead of going to a bar. Or focusing on learning a programming language instead of watching TV. Or focusing on the yard work that needed to be done instead of sitting down to play WoW. It isn't about being a good or bad person, to me. It's about living up to my expectations for myself.
I find your discussion of focusing on goals far more useful than I would a response like "You're an adult; have some self control."
The answers I found useful were "I" statements and the answers I find unhelpful are "you" statements. "Be more goal-oriented" might be ok if followed up with "I" statement examples like what you gave.
Again, maybe give answers you think are helpful and others will do the same. If you don't find "you" statements helpful, move past them to the "I" statements.
OP's been asked what would be more helpful and, unless I missed it, hasn't shared that info.0 -
kommodevaran wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
How do you distinguish the implementation of "planning" from the implementation of "self-control"?DeguelloTex wrote: »
Does being easier for some people than others rule out "self-control" as what needs to happen?not sure if its because I got 3 hours of sleep due to a sewage like breaking under my house haha buuut. I find the responses of "will power" and "self control" so aggravating. So when you gained weight you activly chose to over eat and gain weight. Those things are learned over time after trial and error of adapting CICO. Ive said it before, if it were as easy as self control then id just about assume no one on the planet would ever gain weight or fall victim to bad choices.
Yes, I actively chose to overeat. Nobody held my mouth open and shoved food down my gullet. I did it all myself. Not my finest accomplishment but I did it all myself. Whether or not I did it to purposely gain weight (i.e., actively choosing to gain weight) or not, I chose to eat enough to gain weight. I made bad choices but I was not a victim.
Not sure why it's so aggravating to read the truth.
oh the truth isnt aggravating, but telling someone to have self control is an obvious statement. It is not helpful when they clearly know they lack in that department. When im watching football i should probably have self control when drinking beer but I dont because I enjoy it. I obviously know i should... and telling me to have it doesnt help me in anyway. Im sure there are many people on this site that lack self control in one aspect or another in their life.
But what else are we supposed to do? The alternative is to say "You poor thing. You are a victim. Your overeating patterns and weight gain are due to no fault of your own. Attempting to control yourself is futile. A lifetime of obesity is inevitable. Give up now."
I don't think so, I think the 3rd option is recognizing reasons for overeating in the past and planning to prevent that happening in future. I don't think of it in terms of "self-control" at all. Or maybe, in the sense that with knowledge and experience, you can minimize vulnerability.
yea i dont expect any one to coddle me or anyone else on this site... i just dont really like to see people stating the obvious when self control isnt as easy as snapping a finger.
"Self-control" is easier for some people than others for a HOST of very individual biological and psychological and environmental reasons. Have a problem with blood sugar, PCOS, thyroid, whatever? It's going to be different for you, and it's only by learning different practical strategies that "self-control" is going to be possible.
Great thoughts & links, @jgnatca
"Planning " is a word & framework I prefer. For me the idea of "self-control" is loaded with a whack of moral baggage & judgement I personally find unhelpful. Some people do find it helpful & empowering, they should use that idea. But they shouldn't impose it on others if it's not helpful for them
You didn't ask me, but I'd like to answer what I think: Planning is the act of, in a calm and relaxed state of mind, carefully weighing pros and cons, deliberately deciding to do something that you feel will be good for you (and maybe those close to you), ethically sound, but without any heavy moral judgement - short term as well as long term. Exerting self-control is forcing yourself to do (or don't do) something you don't want to (or want to), telling yourself you're a bad person if you mess up now, trying to suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense, while long term rewards are only a vague blur.
To me this reads as mindset more so than actually what these things mean.
Honestly willpower/exerting self-control and planning are part and parcel of proactive experiences of someone taking control of a situation in a positive way -- if they choose to see things in that light.
You've added all the negative layering on top of a process, and that doesn't necessarily exist there except for you.
I'm frankly shocked that I see the idea of encouraging people to be self-sufficient and empowered as being mean on here. Something tells me that any one who would view such a suggestion as mean has never really experienced true meanness.
I will agree that it's not always easy believing that you can be in full control of yourself and your environment, but the first step to exerting that control is loving yourself enough to believe it can happen. There's no room in that love for all that negative self-talk you mentioned above.0 -
DeguelloTex wrote: »
You and @tomatoey can't even agree on the value of "be more goal-oriented."kshama2001 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
If you think "be more goal-oriented" wouldn't be the next "condescending" answer -- "of course I have goals, do you think I'm stupid?!?!" -- you're more optimistic than I am. Even leaving aside that not everyone view settings goals with the same degree of approval, kinda like with exercising self-control.kshama2001 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
That's not how I see it at all.kommodevaran wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
How do you distinguish the implementation of "planning" from the implementation of "self-control"?DeguelloTex wrote: »
Does being easier for some people than others rule out "self-control" as what needs to happen?not sure if its because I got 3 hours of sleep due to a sewage like breaking under my house haha buuut. I find the responses of "will power" and "self control" so aggravating. So when you gained weight you activly chose to over eat and gain weight. Those things are learned over time after trial and error of adapting CICO. Ive said it before, if it were as easy as self control then id just about assume no one on the planet would ever gain weight or fall victim to bad choices.
Yes, I actively chose to overeat. Nobody held my mouth open and shoved food down my gullet. I did it all myself. Not my finest accomplishment but I did it all myself. Whether or not I did it to purposely gain weight (i.e., actively choosing to gain weight) or not, I chose to eat enough to gain weight. I made bad choices but I was not a victim.
Not sure why it's so aggravating to read the truth.
oh the truth isnt aggravating, but telling someone to have self control is an obvious statement. It is not helpful when they clearly know they lack in that department. When im watching football i should probably have self control when drinking beer but I dont because I enjoy it. I obviously know i should... and telling me to have it doesnt help me in anyway. Im sure there are many people on this site that lack self control in one aspect or another in their life.
But what else are we supposed to do? The alternative is to say "You poor thing. You are a victim. Your overeating patterns and weight gain are due to no fault of your own. Attempting to control yourself is futile. A lifetime of obesity is inevitable. Give up now."
I don't think so, I think the 3rd option is recognizing reasons for overeating in the past and planning to prevent that happening in future. I don't think of it in terms of "self-control" at all. Or maybe, in the sense that with knowledge and experience, you can minimize vulnerability.
yea i dont expect any one to coddle me or anyone else on this site... i just dont really like to see people stating the obvious when self control isnt as easy as snapping a finger.
"Self-control" is easier for some people than others for a HOST of very individual biological and psychological and environmental reasons. Have a problem with blood sugar, PCOS, thyroid, whatever? It's going to be different for you, and it's only by learning different practical strategies that "self-control" is going to be possible.
Great thoughts & links, @jgnatca
"Planning " is a word & framework I prefer. For me the idea of "self-control" is loaded with a whack of moral baggage & judgement I personally find unhelpful. Some people do find it helpful & empowering, they should use that idea. But they shouldn't impose it on others if it's not helpful for them
You didn't ask me, but I'd like to answer what I think: Planning is the act of, in a calm and relaxed state of mind, carefully weighing pros and cons, deliberately deciding to do something that you feel will be good for you (and maybe those close to you), ethically sound, but without any heavy moral judgement - short term as well as long term. Exerting self-control is forcing yourself to do (or don't do) something you don't want to (or want to), telling yourself you're a bad person if you mess up now, trying to suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense, while long term rewards are only a vague blur.
I prelog all my eating. To me, that sounds like planning. Agreed?
When I get the sherbet, I see the dutch chocolate ice cream. When I get the strawberries, I see the cheese. When I get tuna, I see the cookies and peanut butter cups. I exert self-control when I forego those potentially more attractive options and stick to what I've planned. I do definitely suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense.
I don't view it in terms of being a "bad person." I view it in terms of being a person who's focused on his goals. Now, that means sticking with food choices that better fit those goals. Previously, it had been sticking with academic work instead of going to a bar. Or focusing on learning a programming language instead of watching TV. Or focusing on the yard work that needed to be done instead of sitting down to play WoW. It isn't about being a good or bad person, to me. It's about living up to my expectations for myself.
I find your discussion of focusing on goals far more useful than I would a response like "You're an adult; have some self control."
The answers I found useful were "I" statements and the answers I find unhelpful are "you" statements. "Be more goal-oriented" might be ok if followed up with "I" statement examples like what you gave.
Again, maybe give answers you think are helpful and others will do the same. If you don't find "you" statements helpful, move past them to the "I" statements.
OP's been asked what would be more helpful and, unless I missed it, hasn't shared that info.
Lol. We discussed different ways of discussing goals, that doesn't mean we don't agree on the *separate points* we each made. I actually do agree with @kshama2001 re I statements vs. You statements. I was talking about "entity" vs "process" based concepts ("character" vs. "behaviour")0 -
Given that all processes fall back on the entity anyway, I'm more entity-based. Processes don't operate themselves.DeguelloTex wrote: »
You and @tomatoey can't even agree on the value of "be more goal-oriented."kshama2001 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
If you think "be more goal-oriented" wouldn't be the next "condescending" answer -- "of course I have goals, do you think I'm stupid?!?!" -- you're more optimistic than I am. Even leaving aside that not everyone view settings goals with the same degree of approval, kinda like with exercising self-control.kshama2001 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
That's not how I see it at all.kommodevaran wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
How do you distinguish the implementation of "planning" from the implementation of "self-control"?DeguelloTex wrote: »
Does being easier for some people than others rule out "self-control" as what needs to happen?not sure if its because I got 3 hours of sleep due to a sewage like breaking under my house haha buuut. I find the responses of "will power" and "self control" so aggravating. So when you gained weight you activly chose to over eat and gain weight. Those things are learned over time after trial and error of adapting CICO. Ive said it before, if it were as easy as self control then id just about assume no one on the planet would ever gain weight or fall victim to bad choices.
Yes, I actively chose to overeat. Nobody held my mouth open and shoved food down my gullet. I did it all myself. Not my finest accomplishment but I did it all myself. Whether or not I did it to purposely gain weight (i.e., actively choosing to gain weight) or not, I chose to eat enough to gain weight. I made bad choices but I was not a victim.
Not sure why it's so aggravating to read the truth.
oh the truth isnt aggravating, but telling someone to have self control is an obvious statement. It is not helpful when they clearly know they lack in that department. When im watching football i should probably have self control when drinking beer but I dont because I enjoy it. I obviously know i should... and telling me to have it doesnt help me in anyway. Im sure there are many people on this site that lack self control in one aspect or another in their life.
But what else are we supposed to do? The alternative is to say "You poor thing. You are a victim. Your overeating patterns and weight gain are due to no fault of your own. Attempting to control yourself is futile. A lifetime of obesity is inevitable. Give up now."
I don't think so, I think the 3rd option is recognizing reasons for overeating in the past and planning to prevent that happening in future. I don't think of it in terms of "self-control" at all. Or maybe, in the sense that with knowledge and experience, you can minimize vulnerability.
yea i dont expect any one to coddle me or anyone else on this site... i just dont really like to see people stating the obvious when self control isnt as easy as snapping a finger.
"Self-control" is easier for some people than others for a HOST of very individual biological and psychological and environmental reasons. Have a problem with blood sugar, PCOS, thyroid, whatever? It's going to be different for you, and it's only by learning different practical strategies that "self-control" is going to be possible.
Great thoughts & links, @jgnatca
"Planning " is a word & framework I prefer. For me the idea of "self-control" is loaded with a whack of moral baggage & judgement I personally find unhelpful. Some people do find it helpful & empowering, they should use that idea. But they shouldn't impose it on others if it's not helpful for them
You didn't ask me, but I'd like to answer what I think: Planning is the act of, in a calm and relaxed state of mind, carefully weighing pros and cons, deliberately deciding to do something that you feel will be good for you (and maybe those close to you), ethically sound, but without any heavy moral judgement - short term as well as long term. Exerting self-control is forcing yourself to do (or don't do) something you don't want to (or want to), telling yourself you're a bad person if you mess up now, trying to suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense, while long term rewards are only a vague blur.
I prelog all my eating. To me, that sounds like planning. Agreed?
When I get the sherbet, I see the dutch chocolate ice cream. When I get the strawberries, I see the cheese. When I get tuna, I see the cookies and peanut butter cups. I exert self-control when I forego those potentially more attractive options and stick to what I've planned. I do definitely suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense.
I don't view it in terms of being a "bad person." I view it in terms of being a person who's focused on his goals. Now, that means sticking with food choices that better fit those goals. Previously, it had been sticking with academic work instead of going to a bar. Or focusing on learning a programming language instead of watching TV. Or focusing on the yard work that needed to be done instead of sitting down to play WoW. It isn't about being a good or bad person, to me. It's about living up to my expectations for myself.
I find your discussion of focusing on goals far more useful than I would a response like "You're an adult; have some self control."
The answers I found useful were "I" statements and the answers I find unhelpful are "you" statements. "Be more goal-oriented" might be ok if followed up with "I" statement examples like what you gave.
Again, maybe give answers you think are helpful and others will do the same. If you don't find "you" statements helpful, move past them to the "I" statements.
OP's been asked what would be more helpful and, unless I missed it, hasn't shared that info.
Lol. We discussed different ways of discussing goals, that doesn't mean we don't agree on the *separate points* we each made. I actually do agree with @kshama2001 re I statements vs. You statements. I was talking about "entity" vs "process" based concepts.0 -
DeguelloTex wrote: »
Given that all processes fall back on the entity anyway, I'm more entity-based. Processes don't operate themselves.DeguelloTex wrote: »
You and @tomatoey can't even agree on the value of "be more goal-oriented."kshama2001 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
If you think "be more goal-oriented" wouldn't be the next "condescending" answer -- "of course I have goals, do you think I'm stupid?!?!" -- you're more optimistic than I am. Even leaving aside that not everyone view settings goals with the same degree of approval, kinda like with exercising self-control.kshama2001 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
That's not how I see it at all.kommodevaran wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
How do you distinguish the implementation of "planning" from the implementation of "self-control"?DeguelloTex wrote: »
Does being easier for some people than others rule out "self-control" as what needs to happen?not sure if its because I got 3 hours of sleep due to a sewage like breaking under my house haha buuut. I find the responses of "will power" and "self control" so aggravating. So when you gained weight you activly chose to over eat and gain weight. Those things are learned over time after trial and error of adapting CICO. Ive said it before, if it were as easy as self control then id just about assume no one on the planet would ever gain weight or fall victim to bad choices.
Yes, I actively chose to overeat. Nobody held my mouth open and shoved food down my gullet. I did it all myself. Not my finest accomplishment but I did it all myself. Whether or not I did it to purposely gain weight (i.e., actively choosing to gain weight) or not, I chose to eat enough to gain weight. I made bad choices but I was not a victim.
Not sure why it's so aggravating to read the truth.
oh the truth isnt aggravating, but telling someone to have self control is an obvious statement. It is not helpful when they clearly know they lack in that department. When im watching football i should probably have self control when drinking beer but I dont because I enjoy it. I obviously know i should... and telling me to have it doesnt help me in anyway. Im sure there are many people on this site that lack self control in one aspect or another in their life.
But what else are we supposed to do? The alternative is to say "You poor thing. You are a victim. Your overeating patterns and weight gain are due to no fault of your own. Attempting to control yourself is futile. A lifetime of obesity is inevitable. Give up now."
I don't think so, I think the 3rd option is recognizing reasons for overeating in the past and planning to prevent that happening in future. I don't think of it in terms of "self-control" at all. Or maybe, in the sense that with knowledge and experience, you can minimize vulnerability.
yea i dont expect any one to coddle me or anyone else on this site... i just dont really like to see people stating the obvious when self control isnt as easy as snapping a finger.
"Self-control" is easier for some people than others for a HOST of very individual biological and psychological and environmental reasons. Have a problem with blood sugar, PCOS, thyroid, whatever? It's going to be different for you, and it's only by learning different practical strategies that "self-control" is going to be possible.
Great thoughts & links, @jgnatca
"Planning " is a word & framework I prefer. For me the idea of "self-control" is loaded with a whack of moral baggage & judgement I personally find unhelpful. Some people do find it helpful & empowering, they should use that idea. But they shouldn't impose it on others if it's not helpful for them
You didn't ask me, but I'd like to answer what I think: Planning is the act of, in a calm and relaxed state of mind, carefully weighing pros and cons, deliberately deciding to do something that you feel will be good for you (and maybe those close to you), ethically sound, but without any heavy moral judgement - short term as well as long term. Exerting self-control is forcing yourself to do (or don't do) something you don't want to (or want to), telling yourself you're a bad person if you mess up now, trying to suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense, while long term rewards are only a vague blur.
I prelog all my eating. To me, that sounds like planning. Agreed?
When I get the sherbet, I see the dutch chocolate ice cream. When I get the strawberries, I see the cheese. When I get tuna, I see the cookies and peanut butter cups. I exert self-control when I forego those potentially more attractive options and stick to what I've planned. I do definitely suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense.
I don't view it in terms of being a "bad person." I view it in terms of being a person who's focused on his goals. Now, that means sticking with food choices that better fit those goals. Previously, it had been sticking with academic work instead of going to a bar. Or focusing on learning a programming language instead of watching TV. Or focusing on the yard work that needed to be done instead of sitting down to play WoW. It isn't about being a good or bad person, to me. It's about living up to my expectations for myself.
I find your discussion of focusing on goals far more useful than I would a response like "You're an adult; have some self control."
The answers I found useful were "I" statements and the answers I find unhelpful are "you" statements. "Be more goal-oriented" might be ok if followed up with "I" statement examples like what you gave.
Again, maybe give answers you think are helpful and others will do the same. If you don't find "you" statements helpful, move past them to the "I" statements.
OP's been asked what would be more helpful and, unless I missed it, hasn't shared that info.
Lol. We discussed different ways of discussing goals, that doesn't mean we don't agree on the *separate points* we each made. I actually do agree with @kshama2001 re I statements vs. You statements. I was talking about "entity" vs "process" based concepts.
What about the idea that the entity is comprised by processes? (Just a difference in POV)0 -
Unless you know of some way to rewire the biochemical processes in the brain which give rise to consciousness, no, it isn't just a difference in point of view.DeguelloTex wrote: »
Given that all processes fall back on the entity anyway, I'm more entity-based. Processes don't operate themselves.DeguelloTex wrote: »
You and @tomatoey can't even agree on the value of "be more goal-oriented."kshama2001 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
If you think "be more goal-oriented" wouldn't be the next "condescending" answer -- "of course I have goals, do you think I'm stupid?!?!" -- you're more optimistic than I am. Even leaving aside that not everyone view settings goals with the same degree of approval, kinda like with exercising self-control.kshama2001 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
That's not how I see it at all.kommodevaran wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
How do you distinguish the implementation of "planning" from the implementation of "self-control"?DeguelloTex wrote: »
Does being easier for some people than others rule out "self-control" as what needs to happen?not sure if its because I got 3 hours of sleep due to a sewage like breaking under my house haha buuut. I find the responses of "will power" and "self control" so aggravating. So when you gained weight you activly chose to over eat and gain weight. Those things are learned over time after trial and error of adapting CICO. Ive said it before, if it were as easy as self control then id just about assume no one on the planet would ever gain weight or fall victim to bad choices.
Yes, I actively chose to overeat. Nobody held my mouth open and shoved food down my gullet. I did it all myself. Not my finest accomplishment but I did it all myself. Whether or not I did it to purposely gain weight (i.e., actively choosing to gain weight) or not, I chose to eat enough to gain weight. I made bad choices but I was not a victim.
Not sure why it's so aggravating to read the truth.
oh the truth isnt aggravating, but telling someone to have self control is an obvious statement. It is not helpful when they clearly know they lack in that department. When im watching football i should probably have self control when drinking beer but I dont because I enjoy it. I obviously know i should... and telling me to have it doesnt help me in anyway. Im sure there are many people on this site that lack self control in one aspect or another in their life.
But what else are we supposed to do? The alternative is to say "You poor thing. You are a victim. Your overeating patterns and weight gain are due to no fault of your own. Attempting to control yourself is futile. A lifetime of obesity is inevitable. Give up now."
I don't think so, I think the 3rd option is recognizing reasons for overeating in the past and planning to prevent that happening in future. I don't think of it in terms of "self-control" at all. Or maybe, in the sense that with knowledge and experience, you can minimize vulnerability.
yea i dont expect any one to coddle me or anyone else on this site... i just dont really like to see people stating the obvious when self control isnt as easy as snapping a finger.
"Self-control" is easier for some people than others for a HOST of very individual biological and psychological and environmental reasons. Have a problem with blood sugar, PCOS, thyroid, whatever? It's going to be different for you, and it's only by learning different practical strategies that "self-control" is going to be possible.
Great thoughts & links, @jgnatca
"Planning " is a word & framework I prefer. For me the idea of "self-control" is loaded with a whack of moral baggage & judgement I personally find unhelpful. Some people do find it helpful & empowering, they should use that idea. But they shouldn't impose it on others if it's not helpful for them
You didn't ask me, but I'd like to answer what I think: Planning is the act of, in a calm and relaxed state of mind, carefully weighing pros and cons, deliberately deciding to do something that you feel will be good for you (and maybe those close to you), ethically sound, but without any heavy moral judgement - short term as well as long term. Exerting self-control is forcing yourself to do (or don't do) something you don't want to (or want to), telling yourself you're a bad person if you mess up now, trying to suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense, while long term rewards are only a vague blur.
I prelog all my eating. To me, that sounds like planning. Agreed?
When I get the sherbet, I see the dutch chocolate ice cream. When I get the strawberries, I see the cheese. When I get tuna, I see the cookies and peanut butter cups. I exert self-control when I forego those potentially more attractive options and stick to what I've planned. I do definitely suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense.
I don't view it in terms of being a "bad person." I view it in terms of being a person who's focused on his goals. Now, that means sticking with food choices that better fit those goals. Previously, it had been sticking with academic work instead of going to a bar. Or focusing on learning a programming language instead of watching TV. Or focusing on the yard work that needed to be done instead of sitting down to play WoW. It isn't about being a good or bad person, to me. It's about living up to my expectations for myself.
I find your discussion of focusing on goals far more useful than I would a response like "You're an adult; have some self control."
The answers I found useful were "I" statements and the answers I find unhelpful are "you" statements. "Be more goal-oriented" might be ok if followed up with "I" statement examples like what you gave.
Again, maybe give answers you think are helpful and others will do the same. If you don't find "you" statements helpful, move past them to the "I" statements.
OP's been asked what would be more helpful and, unless I missed it, hasn't shared that info.
Lol. We discussed different ways of discussing goals, that doesn't mean we don't agree on the *separate points* we each made. I actually do agree with @kshama2001 re I statements vs. You statements. I was talking about "entity" vs "process" based concepts.
What about the idea that the entity is comprised by processes? (Just a difference in POV)
"I think, therefore I am" is about as central as we're able to manage. That's the entity. That's the level at which personal responsibility, mens rea, etc. attach.0 -
The OP @fishshark did come back to clarify quite a bit on the first page. She did appreciate the tips I provided on HOW willpower can be strengthened, encouraged, extended, rather than the condescending (her words not mine) "have more willpower".0
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Well, sometimes it boils down to just not eating more if you want toose weight. That is not easy but necessary.not sure if its because I got 3 hours of sleep due to a sewage like breaking under my house haha buuut. I find the responses of "will power" and "self control" so aggravating. So when you gained weight you activly chose to over eat and gain weight. Those things are learned over time after trial and error of adapting CICO. Ive said it before, if it were as easy as self control then id just about assume no one on the planet would ever gain weight or fall victim to bad choices.
Self control and willpower are something you do have to actively use. I don't believe most people who say they have no willpower. People truly without willpower and little self control have a pretty hard time socially not just with food.
You can use strategies to help yourself out like figuring out the right number of calories for your activity level, planning meals and snacks, pre-logging your food, not buying problem foods or only buying or making small portions of foods you tend to overeat. You can keep busy with other activities. You can get therapy or medication. It takes work for most of us here to lose weight.0 -
SingRunTing wrote: »Another suggestion is to read the book "The Power of Habit" by Charles Duhigg. Really interesting stuff. It talks about how habits work and that you can set off a subconscious just by being exposed to a cue. It also explains how to reprogram your habits. Once again, it's simple, but not easy. Really great read though. Here's a peak:
https://experiencelife.com/article/the-power-of-habit/
Thanks, I enjoyed the "habit" read.
0 -
DeguelloTex wrote: »
Unless you know of some way to rewire the biochemical processes in the brain which give rise to consciousness, no, it isn't just a difference in point of view.DeguelloTex wrote: »
Given that all processes fall back on the entity anyway, I'm more entity-based. Processes don't operate themselves.DeguelloTex wrote: »
You and @tomatoey can't even agree on the value of "be more goal-oriented."kshama2001 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
If you think "be more goal-oriented" wouldn't be the next "condescending" answer -- "of course I have goals, do you think I'm stupid?!?!" -- you're more optimistic than I am. Even leaving aside that not everyone view settings goals with the same degree of approval, kinda like with exercising self-control.kshama2001 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
That's not how I see it at all.kommodevaran wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
How do you distinguish the implementation of "planning" from the implementation of "self-control"?DeguelloTex wrote: »
Does being easier for some people than others rule out "self-control" as what needs to happen?not sure if its because I got 3 hours of sleep due to a sewage like breaking under my house haha buuut. I find the responses of "will power" and "self control" so aggravating. So when you gained weight you activly chose to over eat and gain weight. Those things are learned over time after trial and error of adapting CICO. Ive said it before, if it were as easy as self control then id just about assume no one on the planet would ever gain weight or fall victim to bad choices.
Yes, I actively chose to overeat. Nobody held my mouth open and shoved food down my gullet. I did it all myself. Not my finest accomplishment but I did it all myself. Whether or not I did it to purposely gain weight (i.e., actively choosing to gain weight) or not, I chose to eat enough to gain weight. I made bad choices but I was not a victim.
Not sure why it's so aggravating to read the truth.
oh the truth isnt aggravating, but telling someone to have self control is an obvious statement. It is not helpful when they clearly know they lack in that department. When im watching football i should probably have self control when drinking beer but I dont because I enjoy it. I obviously know i should... and telling me to have it doesnt help me in anyway. Im sure there are many people on this site that lack self control in one aspect or another in their life.
But what else are we supposed to do? The alternative is to say "You poor thing. You are a victim. Your overeating patterns and weight gain are due to no fault of your own. Attempting to control yourself is futile. A lifetime of obesity is inevitable. Give up now."
I don't think so, I think the 3rd option is recognizing reasons for overeating in the past and planning to prevent that happening in future. I don't think of it in terms of "self-control" at all. Or maybe, in the sense that with knowledge and experience, you can minimize vulnerability.
yea i dont expect any one to coddle me or anyone else on this site... i just dont really like to see people stating the obvious when self control isnt as easy as snapping a finger.
"Self-control" is easier for some people than others for a HOST of very individual biological and psychological and environmental reasons. Have a problem with blood sugar, PCOS, thyroid, whatever? It's going to be different for you, and it's only by learning different practical strategies that "self-control" is going to be possible.
Great thoughts & links, @jgnatca
"Planning " is a word & framework I prefer. For me the idea of "self-control" is loaded with a whack of moral baggage & judgement I personally find unhelpful. Some people do find it helpful & empowering, they should use that idea. But they shouldn't impose it on others if it's not helpful for them
You didn't ask me, but I'd like to answer what I think: Planning is the act of, in a calm and relaxed state of mind, carefully weighing pros and cons, deliberately deciding to do something that you feel will be good for you (and maybe those close to you), ethically sound, but without any heavy moral judgement - short term as well as long term. Exerting self-control is forcing yourself to do (or don't do) something you don't want to (or want to), telling yourself you're a bad person if you mess up now, trying to suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense, while long term rewards are only a vague blur.
I prelog all my eating. To me, that sounds like planning. Agreed?
When I get the sherbet, I see the dutch chocolate ice cream. When I get the strawberries, I see the cheese. When I get tuna, I see the cookies and peanut butter cups. I exert self-control when I forego those potentially more attractive options and stick to what I've planned. I do definitely suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense.
I don't view it in terms of being a "bad person." I view it in terms of being a person who's focused on his goals. Now, that means sticking with food choices that better fit those goals. Previously, it had been sticking with academic work instead of going to a bar. Or focusing on learning a programming language instead of watching TV. Or focusing on the yard work that needed to be done instead of sitting down to play WoW. It isn't about being a good or bad person, to me. It's about living up to my expectations for myself.
I find your discussion of focusing on goals far more useful than I would a response like "You're an adult; have some self control."
The answers I found useful were "I" statements and the answers I find unhelpful are "you" statements. "Be more goal-oriented" might be ok if followed up with "I" statement examples like what you gave.
Again, maybe give answers you think are helpful and others will do the same. If you don't find "you" statements helpful, move past them to the "I" statements.
OP's been asked what would be more helpful and, unless I missed it, hasn't shared that info.
Lol. We discussed different ways of discussing goals, that doesn't mean we don't agree on the *separate points* we each made. I actually do agree with @kshama2001 re I statements vs. You statements. I was talking about "entity" vs "process" based concepts.
What about the idea that the entity is comprised by processes? (Just a difference in POV)
"I think, therefore I am" is about as central as we're able to manage. That's the entity. That's the level at which personal responsibility, mens rea, etc. attach.
This is entirely arguable. If I had more time today, I would argue against it. But the Cartesian self is an anachronism.0 -
I don't mean the Cartesian self, particularly in a scientific sense, but, again, unless you have some way of modifying the processes which generate consciousness, the consciousness of the entity is fundamental, foundational, and precedes any conscious processes implemented by that entity.DeguelloTex wrote: »
Unless you know of some way to rewire the biochemical processes in the brain which give rise to consciousness, no, it isn't just a difference in point of view.DeguelloTex wrote: »
Given that all processes fall back on the entity anyway, I'm more entity-based. Processes don't operate themselves.DeguelloTex wrote: »
You and @tomatoey can't even agree on the value of "be more goal-oriented."kshama2001 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
If you think "be more goal-oriented" wouldn't be the next "condescending" answer -- "of course I have goals, do you think I'm stupid?!?!" -- you're more optimistic than I am. Even leaving aside that not everyone view settings goals with the same degree of approval, kinda like with exercising self-control.kshama2001 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
That's not how I see it at all.kommodevaran wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
How do you distinguish the implementation of "planning" from the implementation of "self-control"?DeguelloTex wrote: »
Does being easier for some people than others rule out "self-control" as what needs to happen?not sure if its because I got 3 hours of sleep due to a sewage like breaking under my house haha buuut. I find the responses of "will power" and "self control" so aggravating. So when you gained weight you activly chose to over eat and gain weight. Those things are learned over time after trial and error of adapting CICO. Ive said it before, if it were as easy as self control then id just about assume no one on the planet would ever gain weight or fall victim to bad choices.
Yes, I actively chose to overeat. Nobody held my mouth open and shoved food down my gullet. I did it all myself. Not my finest accomplishment but I did it all myself. Whether or not I did it to purposely gain weight (i.e., actively choosing to gain weight) or not, I chose to eat enough to gain weight. I made bad choices but I was not a victim.
Not sure why it's so aggravating to read the truth.
oh the truth isnt aggravating, but telling someone to have self control is an obvious statement. It is not helpful when they clearly know they lack in that department. When im watching football i should probably have self control when drinking beer but I dont because I enjoy it. I obviously know i should... and telling me to have it doesnt help me in anyway. Im sure there are many people on this site that lack self control in one aspect or another in their life.
But what else are we supposed to do? The alternative is to say "You poor thing. You are a victim. Your overeating patterns and weight gain are due to no fault of your own. Attempting to control yourself is futile. A lifetime of obesity is inevitable. Give up now."
I don't think so, I think the 3rd option is recognizing reasons for overeating in the past and planning to prevent that happening in future. I don't think of it in terms of "self-control" at all. Or maybe, in the sense that with knowledge and experience, you can minimize vulnerability.
yea i dont expect any one to coddle me or anyone else on this site... i just dont really like to see people stating the obvious when self control isnt as easy as snapping a finger.
"Self-control" is easier for some people than others for a HOST of very individual biological and psychological and environmental reasons. Have a problem with blood sugar, PCOS, thyroid, whatever? It's going to be different for you, and it's only by learning different practical strategies that "self-control" is going to be possible.
Great thoughts & links, @jgnatca
"Planning " is a word & framework I prefer. For me the idea of "self-control" is loaded with a whack of moral baggage & judgement I personally find unhelpful. Some people do find it helpful & empowering, they should use that idea. But they shouldn't impose it on others if it's not helpful for them
You didn't ask me, but I'd like to answer what I think: Planning is the act of, in a calm and relaxed state of mind, carefully weighing pros and cons, deliberately deciding to do something that you feel will be good for you (and maybe those close to you), ethically sound, but without any heavy moral judgement - short term as well as long term. Exerting self-control is forcing yourself to do (or don't do) something you don't want to (or want to), telling yourself you're a bad person if you mess up now, trying to suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense, while long term rewards are only a vague blur.
I prelog all my eating. To me, that sounds like planning. Agreed?
When I get the sherbet, I see the dutch chocolate ice cream. When I get the strawberries, I see the cheese. When I get tuna, I see the cookies and peanut butter cups. I exert self-control when I forego those potentially more attractive options and stick to what I've planned. I do definitely suppress short term rewards that are strong and intense.
I don't view it in terms of being a "bad person." I view it in terms of being a person who's focused on his goals. Now, that means sticking with food choices that better fit those goals. Previously, it had been sticking with academic work instead of going to a bar. Or focusing on learning a programming language instead of watching TV. Or focusing on the yard work that needed to be done instead of sitting down to play WoW. It isn't about being a good or bad person, to me. It's about living up to my expectations for myself.
I find your discussion of focusing on goals far more useful than I would a response like "You're an adult; have some self control."
The answers I found useful were "I" statements and the answers I find unhelpful are "you" statements. "Be more goal-oriented" might be ok if followed up with "I" statement examples like what you gave.
Again, maybe give answers you think are helpful and others will do the same. If you don't find "you" statements helpful, move past them to the "I" statements.
OP's been asked what would be more helpful and, unless I missed it, hasn't shared that info.
Lol. We discussed different ways of discussing goals, that doesn't mean we don't agree on the *separate points* we each made. I actually do agree with @kshama2001 re I statements vs. You statements. I was talking about "entity" vs "process" based concepts.
What about the idea that the entity is comprised by processes? (Just a difference in POV)
"I think, therefore I am" is about as central as we're able to manage. That's the entity. That's the level at which personal responsibility, mens rea, etc. attach.
This is entirely arguable. If I had more time today, I would argue against it. But the Cartesian self is an anachronism.
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So when you gained weight you activly chose to over eat and gain weight.
Yup. That's exactly what happened. I chose poorly.
However, 3 hours of sleep and a broken sewer line are not the worst excuses I've ever heard for choosing to slack off on exercise or a small amount of comfort eating. Its also OK to cut yourself a little slack now and then, too.0 -
Regardless of how condescending a statement sounds to YOU, it is really the truth, and it really is that easy. IF we buy cosmic brownies, I cannot NOT eat them, I lack self control when it comes to those (And they are not even that good). When I whine about this to my husband he says "Just don't eat them" And then I want to punch him, BUT I know I really just want to punch myself (And eat all the brownies) It makes me dislike my own inability to just not eat them. SO, I just don't buy them. I do have the self control to NOT bring them into my home, I do not have enough self control to not eat the box once they are home.
I am on day 120, and the hardest thing to learn is self control, the other crap is Math. For me, it is WANTING to be thin, more than WANTING to grab a kit kat every single time I walk by the candy dish. IT is also not eating in private very much, I'm still pretty good, but not perfect. I went to Fazolis yesterday with my husband and kids. HEllo all the bread sticks you can eat, I had already logged before we went in. IT was much easier to not eat more than the 2 I logged, because I was with my husband, not that he would say anything mean..but it helps me.
It really does come down to calories in, calories out and the self control to make that happen.0 -
Regardless of how condescending a statement sounds to YOU, it is really the truth, and it really is that easy. IF we buy cosmic brownies, I cannot NOT eat them, I lack self control when it comes to those (And they are not even that good). When I whine about this to my husband he says "Just don't eat them" And then I want to punch him, BUT I know I really just want to punch myself (And eat all the brownies) It makes me dislike my own inability to just not eat them. SO, I just don't buy them. I do have the self control to NOT bring them into my home, I do not have enough self control to not eat the box once they are home.
I am on day 120, and the hardest thing to learn is self control, the other crap is Math. For me, it is WANTING to be thin, more than WANTING to grab a kit kat every single time I walk by the candy dish. IT is also not eating in private very much, I'm still pretty good, but not perfect. I went to Fazolis yesterday with my husband and kids. HEllo all the bread sticks you can eat, I had already logged before we went in. IT was much easier to not eat more than the 2 I logged, because I was with my husband, not that he would say anything mean..but it helps me.
It really does come down to calories in, calories out and the self control to make that happen.
You're wrong you know
You absolutely do want to punch him
:bigsmile:0 -
I personally dislike the catch all ideas of "self control" or "will power." They are easy terms and easy to use a a catch all. But as someone who KNEW for many years that I was doing physical harm and deepening mental harm to myself pointing the blame on self control or lack of will power is just too simplistic and possibly ignorant.
When some have gotten to the point of their mental health affecting their physical health, the ability to make correct decisions can become difficult. I know it has for me. I completely understood what was happening as my depression took control. I knew trying to comfort my depression with food was irrational and physically damaging. I understood the ramifications. I even told myself over and over as I plowed through a loaf of bread and a half jar of peanut butter that what I was doing was eventually going to kill me. At the least make my life even more miserable. I wanted to stop, but it was like the motions were being driven by another me telling me this is the way to feel better. It was the same response when the depression episodes got so bad that I didn't want to get out of bed or do anything. I knew it was wrong and I should not wallow in my depression as it made it worse. But, I was helpless.
Too many people assume because the ideas of self control and will power worked for them it should work for all. I disagree to an extent. Yes they can play a role in most people, but there are sometimes major obstacles to overcome that have a stronger grip that makes a person's self control and willpower ineffective. At least until the main reasons are overcome in some way.
I am not an expert at all in any of this, but I looked at myself as I destroyed my life over 25 years and saw these patterns of losing control over the most basic things about myself. Once I and my doctor were able to figure the real causes, then finding an effective way to control or over come those causes allowed my own self control and willpower to exert themselves. I believe, again I am no expert with zero formal training in how the mind works, I have gained some of my ability to not allow my mind to control me during those episodes of severe depression. I am learning to control and adjust to them. This gives me the abilities of my will power and self control to help me make better decisions.
Please note that this is how I am getting through this and is in no way the same for anyone else. Also, I still have bad times and struggle many days with not over eating to comfort my depression. It will always be a struggle for me. Right now things are working good. Down 74 pounds in 18 weeks.0 -
Thank youDeguelloTex wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
I think the way you said it sounds better than, "you just need to control yourself". One is empowering, the other one reminds me of my mom yelling at me in the bathroom at church for not sitting still in my seat.
They both say the same thing. You need to control yourself. You're the only one who can.
They don't say it in the same way. There is a reason people chose to use language in different ways. You can convey the same message multiple ways.
I could tell someone:
"I would like you to shut up right now."
OR
"Can we please talk about this later?"
They say the same thing, but one is inflammatory.
I think you explained something I have been trying to figure out how to word for some time now!
I dont think it's helpful to be told 'Are you a child? Can you not control yourself?' That isnt helpful or motivating, it puts me down. I dont know why people cant understand that those comments arent helpful. (By people I mean the person who actually writes those things).
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not sure if its because I got 3 hours of sleep due to a sewage like breaking under my house haha buuut. I find the responses of "will power" and "self control" so aggravating. So when you gained weight you activly chose to over eat and gain weight. Those things are learned over time after trial and error of adapting CICO. Ive said it before, if it were as easy as self control then id just about assume no one on the planet would ever gain weight or fall victim to bad choices.
For me it wasn't just will power and self control, it was all about food choices. When I ate SAD, I craved sweets and felt hungry most of the time. Back then it all came down to will power but when I felt tired, shakey and cranky from hunger, will power was not going to win - especially over the many months it would take to lose my extra fat.
Then I switched my eating to a very LCHF diet. I needed willpower for about a week to get through the cravings and hunger I was denying. I could do such a short stint of self control. Less than a week isn't much time. Doable.
Once I got through that I no longer needed will power and self control. My hunger dropped to very low levels and my physical cravings for foods (carbs specifically) virtually disappeared. Mentally I would still love to have a pop or cinnabon, but I'd also like to drive down the median during rush hour and never do house work. It went from being a physical craving or need to a mental desire which was very easy to ignore.
My point is that I agree. Some of us are never going to have the will power to be miserable for months at a time. I couldn't do it and I tried - repeatedly. For me, I had to remove the need for self control and will power over food by changing my food choices. I had to cut way back on carbs. It worked. Weight loss is pretty easy now... Something to consider for those interested.0 -
SylvieKuchma wrote: »when i gained some weight over the last few years, i just did not really care one way or another about it! self control was just not needed in that department at the time....when i started to care about my health & extra weight, self control did indeed play a big role in me fulfilling my original goal in three months..without self control, i would of easily eaten and enjoyed ALL the NY cheesecake slices, chocolate crossaints and the yummy dark chocolate fudge that's been in my freezer since day one..
your 'know you should stop but, don't because you enjoy it', is a choice..if you really wanted to stop, you would!
I allow all foods I love in my house. I open container, weigh portion (more or less depending on caloric macro needs), put container away, and enjoy. I was only able to get to this place by realizing there is no good or bad foid, there is just food.0 -
I've given people the "It all comes down to willpower" answer before, and every time I do I get so annoyed with myself; because on one hand, that really is the bottom line, but on the other, it's such a facile, content-free answer. Just have self-control! OMG I haz a genius! Surely I am the only person in the world to have ever had that insight or pointed it out to anyone!
I feel like if people could exercise self-control around food, they would. I really, really doubt anyone sits down to eat with the legitimate intention of becoming obese, or if they do, they're a pretty small minority. Telling someone to just exercise self-control is like telling an aspiring basketball player to just add six inches onto their vertical jump: true, probably, but truth value and helpfulness value are not the same thing. I like the idea of suggesting specific goals and behaviors much better.0 -
People who are judgmental bug me, too. But, there are too many around these days in life to let them bother me too much.
It's such a part of the internet, I think.0
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