Calling out Lazy is the Lazy answer
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missblondi2u wrote: »I think a good lesson for today is this:
If you ask for advice on the internet, try not to take it personally when you don't like what you hear.
If you give advice on the internet, try not to take it personally when people don't like what you say.
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missblondi2u wrote: »I think a good lesson for today is this:
If you ask for advice on the internet, try not to take it personally when you don't like what you hear.
If you give advice on the internet, try not to take it personally when people don't like what you say.
I like this
I'm going to stop trying to be the champion of people's feelings. A forum person would be hard pressed to offend or hurt my feelings, but for some reason I get up in arms for other people's feelings. I am the same way in real life. I need a sign in front of me all the time that says "not my monkey not my circus" 0 -
Like to hear some here on how they address the question "I need motivation or need to be motivated".
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I don't answer those questions. I don't think that there is anything that I can do to motivate a stranger. To me, motivation is too personal to get from people on the internet. I'm motivated by my health and physical goals and by wanting to be a good example to my daughter and a healthy partner for my husband. I might admire somebody online for changes they've made, but I don't equate that with being motivated by that person.
I agree with you and I'm the same way, but sometimes I DO respond to those posts and try to make the point that reliance on motivation is not the key to long-term success. That is done by creating new habits. Sometimes you'll feel like working out and sometimes you won't, but if it's already factored into your day or week as a habit, you just do it. Same thing with meal planning and logging. Motivation and support is great, but reliance upon it for your own success is not.
As always, @jgnatca, thank you for your insightful post!
Could not agree more. It took me way too long to learn this.
Motivation has it's place, but no matter who you are it will not be there day in day out. Heck there are even days where you aren't even motivated to try and motivate yourself. If you don't have something else working for you...you're out of luck then.
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As part of this discussion, @lemurcat12 I did a quick search on the word "lazy". People are much more likely to call themselves lazy.
I have used it to describe myself as I will always seek the simpler way to do a job. I attribute my laziness as an asset when looking to make a job more efficient.
My question got lost in the thread somewhere, but what is laziness, really? I maintain it's an outward symptom of something else.
I think it's difficult to quantify laziness for another person, at least when it comes to diet and exercise. For some people, scheduling a workout and hitting the gym regularly is no big deal. For others, trying to find time to exercise can be a tremendous challenge. Yet some would tell a person saying they can't find time to exercise that they just don't want to lose weight badly enough.
I don't know that your question necessarily has an easy answer, but I could just be too lazy to figure it out.
And for some people it is down to phases in their life
Scheduling a workout and hitting the gym regularly was absolutely beyond me when I was a couch potato
I was an absolute prime lazy- ar$e and had the reasons...mother, worker, wife, householder, family obligations, medical conditions...you name 'em, I got 'em
Until I committed, even when I didn't want to, then I got in the groove and now hitting the gym regularly is no big deal
It was a challenge I took on
Everyone can find the time ...ev-er-y-one! When they stop excusing themselves
I disagree. Not ev-er-y-one can find the time, and if they can't, it's not just because they are making excuses. For example, if you're a parent who needs childcare during your workouts, those childcare areas are only open at certain times. If something comes up that you need to deal with and you miss that time? There goes your workout for the day. Not ev-er-y-one is going to be able to just hit the gym at a later time that day due to other obligations, or have someone else who can watch the kids while they go to they gym at an off-childcare hour.
A lot of success with diet and exercise is due to having access to resources and a support system. Not having access to them doesn't mean someone is just lazy and making excuses, and it can be incredibly frustrating for the person who is wanting to make a change and trying to figure out a way to deal with the obstacles they are facing to be told that they are "being lazy," "don't want it enough," or are "making excuses" by someone in a vastly different situation.
So if one doesn't want to miss a 'workout' the options are put the child in a stroller and go for a walk / run / to the park have a kick around, log into a fitness channel and workout at home when kids are asleep or in front of the TV or do a bodyweight workout...gym is not the only path....not doing it is a choice...it might not be easy but it's still a choice
And that's fine ....I spent years making that choice ..telling myself I didn't have the time, money, childcare
It is only at the other side, when I've conquered those demons that I realise it was an excuse...of course it was...and if I lose this focus it will be an excuse again
And we all know weight loss is about dietary control and not the exercise part
Again, all of that assumes the person has access to safe places to walk, access to fitness channels, space in their home to work out, free time to exercise when the kids are asleep, etc.
I feel like your response just illustrates what jgnatca meant by her OP. You feel like a person who says those things is being lazy based on your own experiences and feelings about yourself; that doesn't mean it can or should be applied universally to everyone who expresses similar feelings or concerns. And that rather than just popping in to tell them they are lazy, making excuses, or that if you can do it anyone can, the person is better served by users who are willing to take the time to help the person process their situation and come up with a plan.
You can assume this nominal person lives in a prison cell..they can walk on the spot if they choose to..you don't see these as excuses?
Do I call this person lazy? I am not aware of having ever called someone else lazy apart from a friend in jest, Or are your perceptions colouring my words with the perception of my calling you / those kind of people lazy. It is your theory of mind, your inference that is imbuing my words with your negative connotations. You assume my intent, that that is what I am implying by using the words excuse, choice.
For me, if I was that person, my needs would be better served by truth boldly spoken, by assumptions being addressed, by others self-perceptions of their own experiences and whether I relate to them or whether I get butt-hurt walk away and it forces me to re-evaluate (and yes I've had that reaction to MFP posts before) and learn
As to the par in bold. Who are you to a determine how a person is best served as though it's some general truth and dictate? It's not true for me, why should you get to assume it is?
I really respond well to truth speakers, and people who share their real experiences. You have helped me in the past with your posts. I wouldn't want you to change the way you think because *I* might be offended. How I choose to react to your words are my own emotions.
I think that is the problem with some of this thread. Some of us want to be told when we need to suck it up, other people don't.
I agree with this. I respond better to direct honesty. While there are situations and circumstances where it may be appropriate to tread lightly, I much prefer to know that whomever is addressing me is being forthright and earnest in their words. I find that a direct approach leaves little room for misinterpretation.0 -
I am peeved when I see responses calling out posters asking for help as being....lazy. In my opinion, that's the lazy answer. I recall all the work I did over the past few years losing weight, reaching fitness goals and all of that, and at various times I got bored, discouraged, distracted, or tempted. The courage came from getting up again and giving it another go. When I got up again, though, I didn't try and do the same old tired thing again. If something wasn't working, there was a reason. I dug deep, figured it out, and tried something new.
Beating myself up never worked. Making a life change of this sort is hard enough without beating on my own poor self, let alone anyone else getting on my case. Anyone who might have whispered the word, "lazy" around me would have been tasered with my gimlet eye. This life change was darned hard work and nobody could know it as well as me, living in my own skin. But I am surrounded, surprisingly consistently, by a terrific group of people who encouraged me and congratulated me on my successes. They helped.
Instead of responding to a discouraged poster by telling them to tough it out, stop making excuses, and don't be lazy, how about digging down with a few pointed questions to help them see out of the hole they've got themselves in? Help them imagine a new way out of their problem.
It's easy enough on the other side to say how easy it has been, but living inside it, it seems insurmountable. Please don't forget that feeling of despair, the barely daring to hope for a better life. Respond kindly and intelligently.
@jgnatca Quoted just since the response is direct
Here's the catch as I see it. Everyone has a different life. Young, old, couch potato, fit, tall, short, thin, or big, we all have different lives and life stresses. We also all have different histories, backgrounds, tolerances for pain, motivations... and the lists go on and on. Finding a way to encourage or motivate people, give them guidance, or help keep them positive can be tough. Sometimes it's tough even with real life close friends. Online, with limited input especially, it can be really hard.
So I've tried to keep my views as my views. I don't mind trying to help someone when I can, but the approach to that can be complex. And so I just try to help without judgment. I don't know your life, so it's not my place to judge it. If we were all the same, we could just make a spreadsheet with all the answers for weight control and fitness, and we would all respond to it the same. And yet it seems a lot of times people want to think whatever worked for them is the answer. And it is, but maybe only for them. Maybe not. Just like many other things in life, sometimes people just have to figure it out for themselves. And in that case, often the most we can do is continue to help them see hope that the changes can happen.
But I think you're making some solid observations about how to help people. First we have to engage them as people. And I really think if we do so without making passing judgement on anyone it's a lot easier. It's very rare that a person really connects with someone voicing an air of superiority, especially when they are talking about another persons unknowns.
When all is said and done, people have to want it for themselves. But I've never seen any harm in helping them understand that it's almost always possible.0 -
missblondi2u wrote: »I think a good lesson for today is this:
If you ask for advice on the internet, try not to take it personally when you don't like what you hear.
If you give advice on the internet, try not to take it personally when people don't like what you say.
Should be the MFP strapline @missblondi2u
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I see that the Thank You mean people thread is alive and growing. Apparently some people are helped by the blunt truth.0
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we ALL have things in our life that we put more emphasis on. We only get so much time in the day.
I don't think the criticism to someone complaining that "they don't have time" for health and fitness that they just don't prioritize the time to do it is "unfair". It's absolutely the truth. There may be other time uses that HAVE to take priority over the time that might be available, but often this is due to prior choices in life.
"Lazy" may be a strong word, but if you used it on me in certain aspects of my life, I'd absolutely agree with you.
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EddieHaskell97 wrote: »There are many of us with a military backgrounds and "kid gloves" isn't our style. We weren't trained that way, we didn't work as a unit that way, we simply don't think that way. We motivate through many methods, but a "sad sack" usually gets some tough love...
There are many others who (for a plethora of reasons) don't think that way either. Maybe they were always the last one picked at kick-ball. Maybe they're still angry over the cancellation of "Saved By The Bell: The College Years." Maybe they're just wired to be mean.
In short, it takes all kinds. If someone puts themselves out in the public forums, they should be prepared for many different types of responses. Just because someone has a different style, or potentially offends the OP (by calling them "lazy") doesn't make them right or wrong necessarily. In many cases they don't mean to offend, but to motivate. (But yes, in many, many cases they're simply trolls.)
There are of course many instances where responders intend to be hurtful, but still "play" within forum regulations. In that case, it's probably best to take a "Sticks-and-stones..." attitude.
Additionally, if the OP is offended by a response that they don't like (but isn't outside forum rules), maybe they weren't ready and really shouldn't have posted in the first place...
The Interwebz is full of hate (GamerGate, ISIS, etc...). Sadly, the public arena is not for the thin-skinned.
I have a military background. I don't think acting all drill sergeanty with someone who has not agreed to be in that sort of relationship with you is effective.0 -
There is a reason that people are trained to give clear, concise, no frills information in times of great stress / trauma... because beating round the bush with social niceties and euphemisms is easily misunderstood. This doesn't make this form of communication rude, it is just simply the most effective way to communicate.
Personally I find passive aggression to be by far the least effective communication style in terms of effecting change.
It's a good job that other people don't want to dictate what kind of form of advice individuals should benefit from
oh wait...
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blues4miles wrote: »rainbowbow wrote: »Did you see my suggestions as somehow forcing success on others, @rainbowbow ?
You're suggesting that providing people the information they need is not enough.
We need to coddle them, ask them pointed questions, help them find their internal motivation and hold their hand. As i stated earlier, once someone has the know-how of what needs to be done to succeed it becomes their CHOICE. Nothing you or I say is going to convince them to take the steps they personally need to succeed. The motivation needed to begin will very quickly come down to dedication they need to continue.
We are not personal counselors and i see nothing wrong with providing people with information and knowledge or personal experience for free. If anything, i see that as kindness. What i think is overstepping is trying to act like their own personal therapist.
edit: you also implied that if we aren't acting as such, we are giving them the "lazy" answer.
ITA. If someone is dealing with the type of issues that require this level of probing to lead them down the path to "being ready", they need a personal coach or counselor. It isn't the responsibility of volunteers on a forum to gently go with them on this process. Other than saying, "perhaps you need to put more thought into why you want to make this change and what is psychologically holding you back", anyone dealing with the lack of self-esteem, fear of failure, and emotional issues with food that are most likely involved should NOT be going through that with random strangers on the interwebs. It's fascinating stuff, but personally I don't think it is any of our responsibility or privilege (depending on how you look at it) to go there. All we can and I think should do, is give them the facts, vouch for our experience, and suggest they look deeper themselves.
Well to be fair, no one is MAKING you respond to those types of threads. We're not all volunteers in some kind of weight loss army. We're just people all trying to lose/gain/maintain weight using the same system or modifications of the same system. You make it sound like you'd list posting forum responses on your charity volunteer experience.
That's not really what I was saying. Based on OP's follow up posts, it sounds like she thinks rather than telling people they don't sound ready to do the work, we should be asking them carefully worded questions to help them figure out what is holding them back. I don't think NOT asking those questions and NOT taking the time to guide newbies down that psychological path is lazy. And there are lots of people here every day who have lost the weight, are happily in maintenance, but they stay on the forums to try to help people who have questions. I just don't think what OP is discussing should be expected of people.
I don't think she's saying it should be expected of people, but you also have the choice not to respond. If taking the time to go through the process with someone isn't something you have time for or feel like doing, perhaps just not responding at all is the better way to go. It's not like success is based on whether users X, Y, and Z respond to your topic, and that you have to have an answer from them in order move forward. There are plenty of people in the community who are willing to take the time, so I think she is suggesting that rather than a "lazy" or soundbite answer, move on to another topic.
Sure, I when I find a particular OP too frustrating, I move on.0 -
robertw486 wrote: »I am peeved when I see responses calling out posters asking for help as being....lazy. In my opinion, that's the lazy answer. I recall all the work I did over the past few years losing weight, reaching fitness goals and all of that, and at various times I got bored, discouraged, distracted, or tempted. The courage came from getting up again and giving it another go. When I got up again, though, I didn't try and do the same old tired thing again. If something wasn't working, there was a reason. I dug deep, figured it out, and tried something new.
Beating myself up never worked. Making a life change of this sort is hard enough without beating on my own poor self, let alone anyone else getting on my case. Anyone who might have whispered the word, "lazy" around me would have been tasered with my gimlet eye. This life change was darned hard work and nobody could know it as well as me, living in my own skin. But I am surrounded, surprisingly consistently, by a terrific group of people who encouraged me and congratulated me on my successes. They helped.
Instead of responding to a discouraged poster by telling them to tough it out, stop making excuses, and don't be lazy, how about digging down with a few pointed questions to help them see out of the hole they've got themselves in? Help them imagine a new way out of their problem.
It's easy enough on the other side to say how easy it has been, but living inside it, it seems insurmountable. Please don't forget that feeling of despair, the barely daring to hope for a better life. Respond kindly and intelligently.
@jgnatca Quoted just since the response is direct
Here's the catch as I see it. Everyone has a different life. Young, old, couch potato, fit, tall, short, thin, or big, we all have different lives and life stresses. We also all have different histories, backgrounds, tolerances for pain, motivations... and the lists go on and on. Finding a way to encourage or motivate people, give them guidance, or help keep them positive can be tough. Sometimes it's tough even with real life close friends. Online, with limited input especially, it can be really hard.
So I've tried to keep my views as my views. I don't mind trying to help someone when I can, but the approach to that can be complex. And so I just try to help without judgment. I don't know your life, so it's not my place to judge it. If we were all the same, we could just make a spreadsheet with all the answers for weight control and fitness, and we would all respond to it the same. And yet it seems a lot of times people want to think whatever worked for them is the answer. And it is, but maybe only for them. Maybe not. Just like many other things in life, sometimes people just have to figure it out for themselves. And in that case, often the most we can do is continue to help them see hope that the changes can happen.
But I think you're making some solid observations about how to help people. First we have to engage them as people. And I really think if we do so without making passing judgement on anyone it's a lot easier. It's very rare that a person really connects with someone voicing an air of superiority, especially when they are talking about another persons unknowns.
When all is said and done, people have to want it for themselves. But I've never seen any harm in helping them understand that it's almost always possible.
Well said.
For example, when my coworker tells me I could be doing things better, I listen to him, because we have previously engaged as people, I see him attaining his goals, and I know he genuinely wants to help and is not just scoring points.
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First, whatever meandering statements I'm about to make, I'd say Sidesteel probably said better on his blog post:
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/blog/SideSteel/view/-you-fat-people-are-obviously-just-lazy-748937
I'll start by saying, it is fairly obvious that no one should need to lie to anyone. 3500 calories are needed to burn a pound of fat, you're not going to fail to lose weight because your body is building muscles, this week's hot detox isn't going to be the final cure you need, there are no magic easy exercises that burn 1000s of a calories in 10 minutes. People who want to argue about these can deal with getting roundly shot down. I don't like crushing their dreams of a magic cures for their weight problems, but the sooner they stop looking for these, the sooner they'll do what works.
That said, I think that while a pound is a pound, a calorie a calorie, I don't think an effort is an effort. It takes us all 3,500 calories to burn a pound, but I think I'd be an utter *hole if I pretended me that it takes me just as much want to lose that pound as it does as everyone else. So I find the "if you want it bad enough, you'll do it" a bit unfair a line. Any number of things can go either way. It would be easy for to tell people, "well you have no excuses, I'm single dad who has his children weeknights, works. I still make it a point to batch cook up my meals and have them ready for the week so I stay on track with eating. I work out at night in my basement instead of watching TV because that's what I do with my time after I have kids to sleep." I could say that, but I think it would be bull when I know having the space for exercise equipment isn't available to everyone, nor is would it be affordable for everyone, and the same goes for every time I can afford to rely on things like a Quest bar to hit my protein needs while filling a bit of that kind of sweet tooth craving.
I also find that I think sometimes if I'm short with another poster, demand no excuses, or dismiss their concern, it isn't really the other poster I'm saying it to. I think there is the problem that people who have lost weight are trying to apply the Golden Rule - "treat others how you want to be treated" - and so I find us saying what I want to say to myself before I lost weight. This can be a huge issue because, frankly, the other person on the other side of the screen isn't old us. We trust ourselves, and appreciate our own ability to be honest with us, and we've already internalized so many things that we forget that even old us wouldn't understand or even conceive some of it.
Finally, I think everyone can agree no one needs to call another person lazy on MFP. It isn't helpful. I don't think you're not ready is helpful either. I also particularly think it is tied into believing that weight lose and life style change is a quantum personality theory - that things exist in discreet states. I'm not entirely sure theory of personality and habit work that way, even if I lean that way. Even if it does work that way, I think then, that effort is much better spent by anyone by finding out what will activate that state rather than evaluating the state the person is in. Until someone discovers that one trick that moves people between states, maybe it would just be better to give up on conversations with those people instead of just letting them know where they stand.
Ok, I'm done because I think this bucket I strapped on my head to white knight doesn't fit very well over the horn on my head.0 -
This was mentioned early on in this thread. I can say from personal experience, being on the receiving end of such a thread (though not for losing weight), I think the answer that one is not ready or motivated enough is true to an extent. It may be challenging for some people to find the time to get a long workout in, but I'd say for most of us achieving our goals is more about motivation.0
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I think in my reading of different threads that there is another aspect of all of this...OP feeling as if they are being ganged up on. Maybe we should all read other comments before we respond and make sure that the "tough love" hasn't already been said.
Most often if there is one that has handed out the "tough love" then there is another...then another...then another and so on and so on. How many times does the "tough love" need to be handed out and how many people have to hand it out? Maybe before handing it out we need to figure out...how did the OP respond to it the first 2 or 3 times?
I also think that there are different methods to handing out "tough love". Maybe we should take a look at ourselves to see if we are handing it out in the most useful manner.
Someone tried "tough love" with me once. I mentioned that I had eliminated White Castle frozen cheeseburgers from my diet because they were not worth the calories and the sodium level. I was told that I needed to moderate them or it was a sign of a mental issue...no self-control...weakness...and that I needed professional help with my eating disorder. Fortunately for me I learned a long time ago not to give a ratsbutt what some stranger on the internet had to say.
Don't get me wrong...there are times that what I am thinking in my head in response to some OPs would be considered "tough love" or maybe a better description would be "not so nice". I try to just move on before I take the time to write out those responses. Occasionally...somehow they manage to get posted...I just couldn't help myself...I had a weak moment.0 -
I never know what to say to someone who asks for help getting motivation. I imagine anyone who's noticeably overweight is somewhat motivated to be trim and healthy. The problem is we're often even more motivated to eat what we like and hang out on the couch. What we're really looking for is a way to care more about achieving the weight loss than we are about continuing to do what's comfortable and pleasant right now. For that matter, we're more motivated to buy that new toy now than to have enough to live on in case we live to be 90, and I could say the same about every other aspect of our lives where we have to defer gratification and turn down the marshmallow. This dilemma stares me in the face all day every day in almost every imaginable context. So what kind of advice gets me to defer gratification? For me, at least, motivation is not the point. The point is, as someone said above, that you have to change how you act right now by dint of will, and the motivation will follow when you see results. Sometimes it's helpful to see results in someone else who's done the same thing.0
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I think in my reading of different threads that there is another aspect of all of this...OP feeling as if they are being ganged up on. Maybe we should all read other comments before we respond and make sure that the "tough love" hasn't already been said.
Most often if there is one that has handed out the "tough love" then there is another...then another...then another and so on and so on. How many times does the "tough love" need to be handed out and how many people have to hand it out? Maybe before handing it out we need to figure out...how did the OP respond to it the first 2 or 3 times?
I also think that there are different methods to handing out "tough love". Maybe we should take a look at ourselves to see if we are handing it out in the most useful manner.
Someone tried "tough love" with me once. I mentioned that I had eliminated White Castle frozen cheeseburgers from my diet because they were not worth the calories and the sodium level. I was told that I needed to moderate them or it was a sign of a mental issue...no self-control...weakness...and that I needed professional help with my eating disorder. Fortunately for me I learned a long time ago not to give a ratsbutt what some stranger on the internet had to say.
Don't get me wrong...there are times that what I am thinking in my head in response to some OPs would be considered "tough love" or maybe a better description would be "not so nice". I try to just move on before I take the time to write out those responses. Occasionally...somehow they manage to get posted...I just couldn't help myself...I had a weak moment.
There should be some kind of law that states that nobody should be able to post until they have read every post on the first and last page of a thread.0 -
WendyLaubach wrote: »So what kind of advice gets me to defer gratification? For me, at least, motivation is not the point. The point is, as someone said above, that you have to change how you act right now by dint of will, and the motivation will follow when you see results. Sometimes it's helpful to see results in someone else who's done the same thing.
I think this is right.
What I found helpful initially was finding a way to reframe it so the goals were things that could be achieved more immediately, not just the longterm weight loss -- focusing on fitness, health -- and also finding ways so that I could make the far away goal concrete to myself, so it seemed like I was actually making sacrifices for something real, not just a vague hope.
How people do this will vary, but I think these are things that probably could help someone seeking so-called motivation. That's how I usually choose to approach it, anyway.0 -
I think in my reading of different threads that there is another aspect of all of this...OP feeling as if they are being ganged up on. Maybe we should all read other comments before we respond and make sure that the "tough love" hasn't already been said.
Most often if there is one that has handed out the "tough love" then there is another...then another...then another and so on and so on. How many times does the "tough love" need to be handed out and how many people have to hand it out? Maybe before handing it out we need to figure out...how did the OP respond to it the first 2 or 3 times?
I also think that there are different methods to handing out "tough love". Maybe we should take a look at ourselves to see if we are handing it out in the most useful manner.
Someone tried "tough love" with me once. I mentioned that I had eliminated White Castle frozen cheeseburgers from my diet because they were not worth the calories and the sodium level. I was told that I needed to moderate them or it was a sign of a mental issue...no self-control...weakness...and that I needed professional help with my eating disorder. Fortunately for me I learned a long time ago not to give a ratsbutt what some stranger on the internet had to say.
Don't get me wrong...there are times that what I am thinking in my head in response to some OPs would be considered "tough love" or maybe a better description would be "not so nice". I try to just move on before I take the time to write out those responses. Occasionally...somehow they manage to get posted...I just couldn't help myself...I had a weak moment.
I like your style! I've never quite understood why people take actual time out of their day to repeat what's already been said, or to get their "soundbite" in. There's been a couple of times when an OP's attitude has really irritated me and I'd like to give them a piece of my mind, but I try to step back and ask myself if everyone (myself included) wouldn't be better served if I just moved on!0
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