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Low carb and vegetables
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lithezebra wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »A serving of cauliflower, green beans, spinach or broccoli typically has around 3-6 grams of carbs net, based on serving sizes of 0.5-1 cup cooked, or 1/4 pound uncooked. It's far from impossible to have 5-7 servings of those kinds of vegetables and still be on a ketogenic diet, having <50 grams of carbs net, or even total, per day.
I don't think that is the claim anyone's making or has made.
I apologize. I was supporting the OP's claim: "I propose that eating a low carbohydrate diet, even a ketogenic diet, is entirely compatible with vegetable consumption..." I'm new to this forum, and didn't realize that we are only allowed to refute claims.
Snark also isn't allowed. You're excused this once.0 -
Word. That's what I meant.
True, but the same thing could be said about a CICO model. Actually, I think you could make an argument that by eliminating some food choices, you are in effect promoting others.lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »If one ate fewer veg before going low carb (and limiting veg), one ate a ridiculously poor diet and is not a good example.
Yes, lots of Americans eat a poor diet. This is not a recommendation.
Nope. It's not. That said, many folks vastly improve their diets when they begin eating low carb. And, yes, many eat more plant foods than the folks who tell them a low carb diet isn't healthy. That's part of the irony.
I just think it's weird to eat so few veg that you eat more by going low carb. Super weird.
I agree. Yet MANY folks on here eat virtually no vegetables.
Agreed, but that's an issue with the SAD. Not a reason to promote low carb.
Calorie counting, not CICO - all diet models follow CICO or else deny physics. And potentially, yes, calorie counting could involve limiting vegetables because that is an extra thing to fit into one's calorie allotment. Still, it isn't as big a thing as in carb restriction as the degrees of freedom is greater (a carb restriction clamps vegetables more than a calorie restriction does). While I don't want to say the plural of anecdote is data, I've yet to see anyone advocating just calorie counting that claims they're better off or just as healthy eating no or less vegetables.
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lemurcat12 wrote: »
True, but the same thing could be said about a CICO model. Actually, I think you could make an argument that by eliminating some food choices, you are in effect promoting others.lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »If one ate fewer veg before going low carb (and limiting veg), one ate a ridiculously poor diet and is not a good example.
Yes, lots of Americans eat a poor diet. This is not a recommendation.
Nope. It's not. That said, many folks vastly improve their diets when they begin eating low carb. And, yes, many eat more plant foods than the folks who tell them a low carb diet isn't healthy. That's part of the irony.
I just think it's weird to eat so few veg that you eat more by going low carb. Super weird.
I agree. Yet MANY folks on here eat virtually no vegetables.
Agreed, but that's an issue with the SAD. Not a reason to promote low carb.
Nope. I eat lots of veg on normal carbs. If people didn't it is because they ate a bad diet.
And I eat a lot more veggies on low carb. If other low carb dieters do not, it is a matter of their personal choice.0 -
True, but the same thing could be said about a CICO model. Actually, I think you could make an argument that by eliminating some food choices, you are in effect promoting others.lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »If one ate fewer veg before going low carb (and limiting veg), one ate a ridiculously poor diet and is not a good example.
Yes, lots of Americans eat a poor diet. This is not a recommendation.
Nope. It's not. That said, many folks vastly improve their diets when they begin eating low carb. And, yes, many eat more plant foods than the folks who tell them a low carb diet isn't healthy. That's part of the irony.
I just think it's weird to eat so few veg that you eat more by going low carb. Super weird.
I agree. Yet MANY folks on here eat virtually no vegetables.
Agreed, but that's an issue with the SAD. Not a reason to promote low carb.
You would be promoting "anything that is not what you're cutting out". Which is not just vegetables but also for more than just a few people stuff like pouring coconut oil in their morning coffee and bacon with everything.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »
True, but the same thing could be said about a CICO model. Actually, I think you could make an argument that by eliminating some food choices, you are in effect promoting others.lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »If one ate fewer veg before going low carb (and limiting veg), one ate a ridiculously poor diet and is not a good example.
Yes, lots of Americans eat a poor diet. This is not a recommendation.
Nope. It's not. That said, many folks vastly improve their diets when they begin eating low carb. And, yes, many eat more plant foods than the folks who tell them a low carb diet isn't healthy. That's part of the irony.
I just think it's weird to eat so few veg that you eat more by going low carb. Super weird.
I agree. Yet MANY folks on here eat virtually no vegetables.
Agreed, but that's an issue with the SAD. Not a reason to promote low carb.
You would be promoting "anything that is not what you're cutting out". Which is not just vegetables but also for more than just a few people stuff like pouring coconut oil in their morning coffee and bacon with everything.
Agreed, I think.
Bacon is good, yes?0 -
stevencloser wrote: »
True, but the same thing could be said about a CICO model. Actually, I think you could make an argument that by eliminating some food choices, you are in effect promoting others.lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »If one ate fewer veg before going low carb (and limiting veg), one ate a ridiculously poor diet and is not a good example.
Yes, lots of Americans eat a poor diet. This is not a recommendation.
Nope. It's not. That said, many folks vastly improve their diets when they begin eating low carb. And, yes, many eat more plant foods than the folks who tell them a low carb diet isn't healthy. That's part of the irony.
I just think it's weird to eat so few veg that you eat more by going low carb. Super weird.
I agree. Yet MANY folks on here eat virtually no vegetables.
Agreed, but that's an issue with the SAD. Not a reason to promote low carb.
You would be promoting "anything that is not what you're cutting out". Which is not just vegetables but also for more than just a few people stuff like pouring coconut oil in their morning coffee and bacon with everything.
Agreed, I think.
Bacon is good, yes?
Well the saturated fat might increase the risk and rate of development of diabetes, which is what a lot of people seem to be going on low carb to try to avoid.0 -
I agree with smeone up thread who said low carbers often find themsleves eating more vegetables once they cut the beige (completely non-essential) stuff from their plate - there is more room for veggies now.
Just look at the (American) my plate. http://www.choosemyplate.gov/MyPlate-Daily-Checklist For a 2000 kcal diet, they recommend the equivalent of 6 oz of grain per day. That's about 6 slices of bread or 3 cups of pasta or rice. Take that off the plate and there is a LOT more room for veggies, or just go with what is recommended. My plate only calls for 2.5 cups of veggies per day... That could be one big salad! http://www.choosemyplate.gov/sites/default/files/myplate/checklists/MyPlateDailyChecklist_2000cals_Age14plus.pdf
I eat very low carb to treat insulin resistance and autoimmune problems. It helped me lose weight and reduce saturated fats in my body, which I understand to be the increased risk for diabetes, and not the saturated fat in food we eat. I included veggies a few times per day and I am confident I was getting over 2.5 cups of veggies per day, but I find I feel healthier when I reduce my vegetable intake below that. I have better blood glucose, and I feel more energetic and have less pain. Meats and eggs are complete foods so I have no problem just consuming those foods on some days.
It really isn't that different than how a vegetarian excludes meats except I don't have to plan as much to get my nutrients in; as long as I keep my meat rare, eat the occassional organ meat, my nutrients are covered better than veggies would provide for me. I do still eat veggies, but it is a minority of the bulk of my foods now. I eat it for pleasure and NOT because some still think it holds some vital nutrient for good health.
This is just my experience though. Do not apply my n=1 to everybody who is low carb, just like the veggie lovers in this thread should not apply their experience to the vast majority of moderate carb or high carb people who probably are not eating as many veggies. (Wasn't their a thread a wile back about the perfect vegan food: Oreos?) Most people who eat LCHF include more vegetables than I do. That's great for them, but I am confident that my health symptoms and BG are showing me that what I am doing works well for me. I am not damaging my health, my symptoms are actually improving - to each their own.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »If one ate fewer veg before going low carb (and limiting veg), one ate a ridiculously poor diet and is not a good example.
Yes, lots of Americans eat a poor diet. This is not a recommendation.
Nope. It's not. That said, many folks vastly improve their diets when they begin eating low carb. And, yes, many eat more plant foods than the folks who tell them a low carb diet isn't healthy. That's part of the irony.
I just think it's weird to eat so few veg that you eat more by going low carb. Super weird.
I agree. Yet MANY folks on here eat virtually no vegetables.
Agreed, but that's an issue with the SAD. Not a reason to promote low carb.
Agreed. I don't think I've ever seen it as a reason to promote low carb. Rather, I've seen it as a surprise result of going low carb for individuals.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »If one ate fewer veg before going low carb (and limiting veg), one ate a ridiculously poor diet and is not a good example.
Yes, lots of Americans eat a poor diet. This is not a recommendation.
Nope. It's not. That said, many folks vastly improve their diets when they begin eating low carb. And, yes, many eat more plant foods than the folks who tell them a low carb diet isn't healthy. That's part of the irony.
I just think it's weird to eat so few veg that you eat more by going low carb. Super weird.
I think you're kind of overlooking the fact that many vegetables are low carb. So when shifting to a low carb plan, you would naturally shift to low carb options.
It seems unlikely that going low carb by itself is going to lead to increasing vegetable intake, given carb limits means vegetables will push out other items people usually prefer. This doesn't mean people going low carb don't ever increase vegetables - I don't know the statistics. I would just imagine that the drive behind the increase is not that they have less carbs available to them (seems contradictory) but either they are trying to improve their health (both with increased vegetables and low carbing to reduce weight) or improve satiety.
I can tell you that I have no love for veggies, nor do I feel compelled to eat veggies for health reasons. I do it to add a little bit of variety to my meals and honestly to fit in a little bit better at the dinner table. I often eat with extended family and people tend to question why you only have one item on your plate.
That might be the case. I don't think it is indicative of the general low carb community. I also wouldn't be at all surprised if those individuals saying that end up eating more veggies than they did previously.
I do concur that from what I see, there do appear to be low carbers that take up low carb as a rational for avoiding vegetables. Which it is their body, they can do what they want, but I don't think the science backs up the notion of it being a particularly healthy WOE at that point.
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I'm suspicious of sugar alcohols, but they've been included in the "net carb" thing as a marketing trick so Atkins can put it in all the boxed snacks that says "Atkins" on the label. He had some really good ideas, then kind of sold out to the food industry. I think it's better to avoid stuff like that really, but each to their own. Sugar alcohol is generally considered safe and hasn't sparked the controversy of chemical sweeteners, but I've noticed that it gives me digestive issues, and later I read that it does the same thing to other people, which naturally makes me wonder what's wrong with it. But, I'm not saying it's the worst thing in the world. They say it doesn't cause the same spike in blood sugar as regular sugar does, but, there are still calories from carbohydrates in there, and I would still count them as carbs. But that's just me.
Subtracting soluble fiber makes a little more sense because we could all use more fiber, and it binds to fatty acids in your stomach, which helps the carbs to absorb more slowly into your bloodstream. But I don't really bother with net carbs. I just look at overall carbs. But I'm not super strict about it.0 -
lisawinning4losing wrote: »I'm suspicious of sugar alcohols, but they've been included in the "net carb" thing as a marketing trick so Atkins can put it in all the boxed snacks that says "Atkins" on the label. He had some really good ideas, then kind of sold out to the food industry. I think it's better to avoid stuff like that really, but each to their own. Sugar alcohol is generally considered safe and hasn't sparked the controversy of chemical sweeteners, but I've noticed that it gives me digestive issues, and later I read that it does the same thing to other people, which naturally makes me wonder what's wrong with it. But, I'm not saying it's the worst thing in the world. They say it doesn't cause the same spike in blood sugar as regular sugar does, but, there are still calories from carbohydrates in there, and I would still count them as carbs. But that's just me.
Subtracting fiber makes a little more sense because we could all use more fiber, and it binds to fatty acids in your stomach, which helps the carbs to absorb more slowly into your bloodstream.
@lisawinning4losing I think you might have posted in the wrong thread. We're talking about veggies, not artificial sweeteners.0 -
Eat the damn vegetables. That is all0
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OP mentioned sugar alcohols and net carbs.0
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In terms of vegetables, they're good for you, and most of them are very low in carbs. Just watch out for starchy vegetables and root vegetables if you're going low carb. No need to be scurrred of broccoli.0
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auntchiladas wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »I eat more fruits (berries/melon/grapefruit) and veggies following LC than I normally did following a SAD.
That always wondered me. By definition you have less of a window to allow for fruit and veggies on LC yet so many say they only started really eating them once they started LC.
Well, for most people transitioning into LCHF, I assume they were eating carbs in places of vegetables to feel more full. Personally, I eat way more vegetables doing Keto/LCHF because I'm not stuffing my face with potatoes or rice.
Same.0 -
So one can eat 200 grams of veg (half of the WHO's "five a day") and take in less than 10g of carbohydrate, with a blood sugar impact equivalent to 2 grams of glucose or less. My n=1 experience of this is that a typical "meat and two veg" low carb meal accompanied by a glass of dry wine has literally zero effect on my blood sugar level measured continuously.
I propose that eating a low carbohydrate diet, even a ketogenic diet, is entirely compatible with vegetable consumption although obviously one has to avoid / limit the higher starch or sweeter root veg.
You know you're cheating with the wine, right?
It shuts down the background glucose production factory (your liver), so you can likely double your carb consumption while it is processing the alcohol without having any impact at all on your BG.
(5 oz of wine allows me to extend my 20 carbs in a 3 hour period to around 50 carbs in a 3 hour period. Not that I've spent any time checking it out, or anything . . .
)
FWIW - I'm eating LC-moderate protein and yesterday I had 600 grams (salad and asparagus) for a total of 12 net carbs.
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lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »If one ate fewer veg before going low carb (and limiting veg), one ate a ridiculously poor diet and is not a good example.
Yes, lots of Americans eat a poor diet. This is not a recommendation.
Nope. It's not. That said, many folks vastly improve their diets when they begin eating low carb. And, yes, many eat more plant foods than the folks who tell them a low carb diet isn't healthy. That's part of the irony.
I just think it's weird to eat so few veg that you eat more by going low carb. Super weird.
I think you're kind of overlooking the fact that many vegetables are low carb. So when shifting to a low carb plan, you would naturally shift to low carb options.
It seems unlikely that going low carb by itself is going to lead to increasing vegetable intake, given carb limits means vegetables will push out other items people usually prefer. This doesn't mean people going low carb don't ever increase vegetables - I don't know the statistics. I would just imagine that the drive behind the increase is not that they have less carbs available to them (seems contradictory) but either they are trying to improve their health (both with increased vegetables and low carbing to reduce weight) or improve satiety.
I can tell you that I have no love for veggies, nor do I feel compelled to eat veggies for health reasons. I do it to add a little bit of variety to my meals and honestly to fit in a little bit better at the dinner table. I often eat with extended family and people tend to question why you only have one item on your plate.
That might be the case. I don't think it is indicative of the general low carb community. I also wouldn't be at all surprised if those individuals saying that end up eating more veggies than they did previously.
I do concur that from what I see, there do appear to be low carbers that take up low carb as a rational for avoiding vegetables. Which it is their body, they can do what they want, but I don't think the science backs up the notion of it being a particularly healthy WOE at that point.
I think it is indicative of the general low carb community, but maybe not the MFP low carb community, though there are some posters that don't eat veggies either.
I saw a poster brag about how as long as she took the bun off her Baconator from Wendy's, it was healthy because low carb and she could have it all the time! She continued to discuss how meat and cheese now made up almost all of her food, now. She wasn't the only one who has said this.
Most of the people in my real life who used to low carb now seem to have shifted to Paleo and they all seem to eat more veggies now than then. But, of course, the plural of anecdote is not data.
I'm personally guessing that the people who say they eat more veggies now that they low carb are forgetting the part where they're now paying a lot closer attention to their diet than they used to; this is true for me as well, even though I'm not low carb.0 -
lisawinning4losing wrote: »I'm suspicious of sugar alcohols, but they've been included in the "net carb" thing as a marketing trick so Atkins can put it in all the boxed snacks that says "Atkins" on the label. He had some really good ideas, then kind of sold out to the food industry. I think it's better to avoid stuff like that really, but each to their own. Sugar alcohol is generally considered safe and hasn't sparked the controversy of chemical sweeteners, but I've noticed that it gives me digestive issues, and later I read that it does the same thing to other people, which naturally makes me wonder what's wrong with it. But, I'm not saying it's the worst thing in the world. They say it doesn't cause the same spike in blood sugar as regular sugar does, but, there are still calories from carbohydrates in there, and I would still count them as carbs. But that's just me.
Subtracting soluble fiber makes a little more sense because we could all use more fiber, and it binds to fatty acids in your stomach, which helps the carbs to absorb more slowly into your bloodstream. But I don't really bother with net carbs. I just look at overall carbs. But I'm not super strict about it.
Gut microbes ferment fiber to short chain fatty acids, which we get some energy from, but not through carbohydrate metabolism. Some starches are also fermented to SFCAs. SFCAs are used by cells in the intestinal lining, and are also transported to the liver. So I think it makes sense to subtract fiber from your total carbs, unless you've noticed a measurable increase in your blood glucose, from eating more fiber. In general though, fiber seems to lower those postprandial blood glucose increases. Here's a pretty picture from Nature: http://www.nature.com/nbt/journal/v32/n3/fig_tab/nbt.2845_F1.html
Feeding my gut flora and intestinal epithelial cells is my number 1 reason for not restricting my diet to protein and fat. I feel fantastic in deep ketosis, and don't miss sugar at all.
P.S. About sugar alcohols, xylitol is likely to cause indigestion, but supposedly can be subtracted from carb totals. Erythritol is not likely to cause indigestion, is probably broken down, absorbed, then excreted in urine, and can be subtracted from carb totals. (However, I'd kinda like to see a study where ALL the erythritol that a person consumes is accounted for in urine). Many sugar alcohols should NOT be subtracted from carb totals, even though they don't cause a blood glucose spike, like maltitol and lactitol.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »If one ate fewer veg before going low carb (and limiting veg), one ate a ridiculously poor diet and is not a good example.
Yes, lots of Americans eat a poor diet. This is not a recommendation.
Nope. It's not. That said, many folks vastly improve their diets when they begin eating low carb. And, yes, many eat more plant foods than the folks who tell them a low carb diet isn't healthy. That's part of the irony.
I just think it's weird to eat so few veg that you eat more by going low carb. Super weird.
I think you're kind of overlooking the fact that many vegetables are low carb. So when shifting to a low carb plan, you would naturally shift to low carb options.
It seems unlikely that going low carb by itself is going to lead to increasing vegetable intake, given carb limits means vegetables will push out other items people usually prefer. This doesn't mean people going low carb don't ever increase vegetables - I don't know the statistics. I would just imagine that the drive behind the increase is not that they have less carbs available to them (seems contradictory) but either they are trying to improve their health (both with increased vegetables and low carbing to reduce weight) or improve satiety.
I can tell you that I have no love for veggies, nor do I feel compelled to eat veggies for health reasons. I do it to add a little bit of variety to my meals and honestly to fit in a little bit better at the dinner table. I often eat with extended family and people tend to question why you only have one item on your plate.
That might be the case. I don't think it is indicative of the general low carb community. I also wouldn't be at all surprised if those individuals saying that end up eating more veggies than they did previously.
I do concur that from what I see, there do appear to be low carbers that take up low carb as a rational for avoiding vegetables. Which it is their body, they can do what they want, but I don't think the science backs up the notion of it being a particularly healthy WOE at that point.
I think it is indicative of the general low carb community, but maybe not the MFP low carb community, though there are some posters that don't eat veggies either.
I saw a poster brag about how as long as she took the bun off her Baconator from Wendy's, it was healthy because low carb and she could have it all the time! She continued to discuss how meat and cheese now made up almost all of her food, now. She wasn't the only one who has said this.
Most of the people in my real life who used to low carb now seem to have shifted to Paleo and they all seem to eat more veggies now than then. But, of course, the plural of anecdote is not data.
I'm personally guessing that the people who say they eat more veggies now that they low carb are forgetting the part where they're now paying a lot closer attention to their diet than they used to; this is true for me as well, even though I'm not low carb.
Do you mean that they were eating the veggies all along and didn't notice it, or that since they are paying attention to their diet, they are trying to eat healthier?0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »If one ate fewer veg before going low carb (and limiting veg), one ate a ridiculously poor diet and is not a good example.
Yes, lots of Americans eat a poor diet. This is not a recommendation.
Nope. It's not. That said, many folks vastly improve their diets when they begin eating low carb. And, yes, many eat more plant foods than the folks who tell them a low carb diet isn't healthy. That's part of the irony.
I just think it's weird to eat so few veg that you eat more by going low carb. Super weird.
I think you're kind of overlooking the fact that many vegetables are low carb. So when shifting to a low carb plan, you would naturally shift to low carb options.
It seems unlikely that going low carb by itself is going to lead to increasing vegetable intake, given carb limits means vegetables will push out other items people usually prefer. This doesn't mean people going low carb don't ever increase vegetables - I don't know the statistics. I would just imagine that the drive behind the increase is not that they have less carbs available to them (seems contradictory) but either they are trying to improve their health (both with increased vegetables and low carbing to reduce weight) or improve satiety.
I can tell you that I have no love for veggies, nor do I feel compelled to eat veggies for health reasons. I do it to add a little bit of variety to my meals and honestly to fit in a little bit better at the dinner table. I often eat with extended family and people tend to question why you only have one item on your plate.
That might be the case. I don't think it is indicative of the general low carb community. I also wouldn't be at all surprised if those individuals saying that end up eating more veggies than they did previously.
I do concur that from what I see, there do appear to be low carbers that take up low carb as a rational for avoiding vegetables. Which it is their body, they can do what they want, but I don't think the science backs up the notion of it being a particularly healthy WOE at that point.
I think it is indicative of the general low carb community, but maybe not the MFP low carb community, though there are some posters that don't eat veggies either.
I saw a poster brag about how as long as she took the bun off her Baconator from Wendy's, it was healthy because low carb and she could have it all the time! She continued to discuss how meat and cheese now made up almost all of her food, now. She wasn't the only one who has said this.
Most of the people in my real life who used to low carb now seem to have shifted to Paleo and they all seem to eat more veggies now than then. But, of course, the plural of anecdote is not data.
I'm personally guessing that the people who say they eat more veggies now that they low carb are forgetting the part where they're now paying a lot closer attention to their diet than they used to; this is true for me as well, even though I'm not low carb.
Do you mean that they were eating the veggies all along and didn't notice it, or that since they are paying attention to their diet, they are trying to eat healthier?
The latter - now that they're paying attention to their diet, they're trying to eat healthier.
ETA: Within the constraints of their low carb diet, which many people have pointed out can include lots of the veggies since they're both low carb and low calorie.0
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