April 2016 Running Challenge

5BeautifulDays wrote: »

Stoshew71 wrote: »

5BeautifulDays wrote: »

Stoshew71 wrote: »

It could have been a tempo or at least a pace that Greg McMillan calls steady state.
Tempo usually means a race pace that you can sustain for 40-60 minutes. About 30 seconds slower than that is what is known as steady state.

Tempo is comfortably hard. You are breathing heavy but not hyper ventalating. You would be able to get out one or 2 words answers while running. If you slowed down to a steady state pace, you would be able to slowly feel yourself recover (just barely).

Oooh...this is helpful. I've been very confused by what all of you fancy-talking runners mean by tempo and such!

So, for me (and if you want slow, @MNLittleFinn , I'm S...l...o...w like a sloth), my steady state would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 4.8-5.0 mph--a pace I could probably comfortably run for 4-6 hours if my life depended on it (I don't know if my joints would hold out that long, but I think my muscles would, and I know my lungs would). My tempo would be somewhere like 5.2-5.5 mph (depending on incline, probably)? When I know I'm only going to run 3 miles or less, I usually run at 5.5-5.8 mph. I can run 6.0 mph, but not more than a few miles, and probably not without stopping for a breather or a water break. Am I understanding the terms correctly, then, @Stoshew71 ?

I am not sure. LOL I forgot what mph is since it's been the longest time since I ran on a TM. So all I go by these days is mins/mile paces.

The other thing is, what speed or pace is a tempo verses easy verses... whatever is very individual.

So looking at speed to pace conversions:
4.8-5.0 mph is 12:30-12:00 pace. You are saying that is your easy pace.
5.2-5.5 mph is 11:32- 10:54 pace. Is what you are saying is your tempo?

You can run 3 miles (or less) at 5.5 - 5.8 mph or 10:54 -10:21 pace.

All of these are all training times. So it's hard to say what you can really do in a race situation. But if you ran a 3 mile race at a 10:21 pace- You would run it in 31:03.
Question would be, could you sustain that pace for 1or 2 more miles if it was a race?

Your tempo (or more accurate term lacate threshold) pace would be a pace that an experienced runner can race at for about an hour. A beginner can probably sustain their LT pace in a race for at least 40 minutes. What would happen is that you have no problems pushing this particular pace for 40-60 minutes. But then after that, no matter how hard you push, you will no longer be able to sustain it. You would feel so much of a burning in your muscles and your breathing would be so heavy that you would just have to stop. That would happen because of all the hydrogen ions that get's build up in the lactate process that the pH level in your muscles become so acidic that you just have to stop.

I would actually suggest that you sign up for an 8K (5 miles) and see if you can run the whole race at a pace of 10:54. It would take you 54:30 to race those 5 miles. If you succeed and had nothing left in your tank, then 10:54 would be your LT (or tempo) pace. Depending how far away from the finish line that you had to stop and walk (or how much further you could sustain that pace) you can still estimate how close your true LT pace should have been.

Does that make sense?

OK...that's a lot of info, lol.

I'm happy to convert to paces; that's how I record my runs. I'm just used to seeing the mph on the treadmill (which--only about half my runs are on one, less in warm weather).

I've only run a handful of races:
3 5Ks--34:47, 33:39, 32:56
1 8K--58:57 (this is actually a little more than 8K, and it was 15 degrees with sub-zero windchills)
2 10Ks--1:20:15 with a trail portion and 1:09:45
1 Half--2:49:33

and I can't really say that I've left it all on the course in any of them, although I'd say the one that took the most out of me was the second 10K because I was trying to place my corral for the half. I don't like that feeling you're describing, and I slow down when I experience it! My fear is that I dislike it so much that I'm actively avoiding it and not really running as fast as I can in a race. I'm signed up for another 10K in two weeks, so that will give me an opportunity to see just how long I can keep up that sub-11:00 pace. Unfortunately it's mostly a trail run, although it's a gravel trail and not a technical one, which tends to slow me down some.

OK! Now we are talking.

8K - 58:57 in bad weather conditions and left a little in the tank.
This would equate to a 11:52 pace.
With more perfect weather and you were pushing it, I bet you could do it a little faster. You just need the mental confidence and fortitude to believe that you could do it the whole way through. I am not sure if you could do an 8K in 54:30 (at 10:54 pace), but you are close.

Your 32:56 5K time does suggest that you can do an 8K in 54:16 (10:55 pace).

8K strategy I would suggest is to run the first 4 miles at 11:30 or 11:35 pace and if you had anything left just grind the last mile at a 11:00 min pace. I believe that is very realistic for you. Maybe not on your trail 8K, but definetely a road 8K. I am not sure how many seconds you would lose per mile running trail vs road. (maybe ~30 seconds per mile?)

So if I plug in 1:09:45 for your 10K, it suggests an 8K time of 55:21 (11:08 pace) and a 33:35 5K. That slows your times down a little, but all of this in the right ballpark. I would be curious to see the split data on that 10K. I wonder if you positive split that race.

How long ago was that 1:09:45 10K? Is that up on strava?


Anyway, using your 1:09:45 time, the MRC suggests the following:

11:11 vLT

Recovery Jogs 12:59-13:56
Long Runs 12:11-13:18
Easy (Normal Runs) 12:07-12:47

Steady State Runs 11:18-11:50
Tempo Runs 10:54-11;16
Tempo Intervals 10:43-11:10

Since I think you can race a 10K a lil faster, I would say that the above suggested paces could be shifted maybe 5-10 seconds faster.

So that would make it:

Recovery Jogs 12:49-13:46
Long Runs 12:01-13:08
Easy (Normal Runs) 11:57-12:37

Steady State Runs 11:08-11:40
Tempo Runs 10:44-11:06
Tempo Intervals 10:33-11:00

instantmartian wrote: »

Stoshew71 wrote: »

kristinegift wrote: »

Stoshew71 wrote: »

kristinegift wrote: »

@greenolivetree Honestly the best way to tell if you're running to hard is to literally talk out loud to yourself. I do this all the time and look like a crazy person, but there's usually not anyone actually around to hear it (though I was singing along to Hamilton yesterday and turned a corner and someone was outside watering some plants... oops). If 8:30 would be a 5k race pace for you right now, then 9:30-10:30 sounds about right for an easy pace as long as it's conversational.

If you could sing Christina Aguilera's Fighter out loud in perfect rythem (singing in tune is optional) while running; then you are running a good easy pace. If not, slow down your pace until you can.

This is a tellingly specific example, @Stoshew71
I figure if I can rap "My Shot" from Hamilton while also moving my body forward, I am A-OK.
"I'mma get a scholarship to King's College. I prolly shouldn't brag, but dag, I amaze and astonish. The problem is I got a lot a brains but no polish, I gotta holler just to heard, with every word I drop knowledge..." I didn't think I had this song memorized until I was running my shake-out last week and made it through half the rap without music (I'd been running with a friend and didn't have my ipod). Now I'm a pro!

This may go before your time (unless you watch Nick at night)


Fish don't fry in the kitchen;
Beans don't burn on the grill.
Took a whole lotta tryin'
Just to get up that hill.
Now we're up in the big leagues
Gettin' our turn at bat.
As long as we live, it's you and me baby
There ain't nothin wrong with that.

Well, we're movin' on up (movin' on up)
To the East Side!

By the way, Nelly used these lyrics in a song the early 2000s. I only know this because I was in high school, and my boyfriend's twin brother at the time was very into Nelly's album Country Grammar. I remember hearing the song for the first time and being annoyed that Nelly ripped it from the Jeffersons!

That's funny. I didn't know about the Nelly song.

5BeautifulDays wrote: »

Stoshew71 wrote: »

So if I plug in 1:09:45 for your 10K, it suggests an 8K time of 55:21 (11:08 pace) and a 33:35 5K. That slows your times down a little, but all of this in the right ballpark. I would be curious to see the split data on that 10K. I wonder if you positive split that race.

How long ago was that 1:09:45 10K? Is that up on strava?

That was at the MCM10K in late October last fall. The first mile was slow because I was *freezing* and jogging with a slower friend while we warmed up and dealt with the 7000 other runners. The last bit was up a ginormous hill.

Distance Pace Elapsed Time
1.0 mi 12:53 min/mi 00:12:52
2.0 mi 10:24 min/mi 00:10:22
3.0 mi 10:48 min/mi 00:10:48
4.0 mi 10:23 min/mi 00:10:22
5.0 mi 10:37 min/mi 00:10:36
6.0 mi 11:02 min/mi 00:11:00
6.5 mi 12:24 min/mi 00:06:34

My other 10K (one month earlier) is similar for the road sections:
Distance Pace Elapsed Time
1.0 mi 10:20 min/mi 00:10:20 Road
2.0 mi 10:54 min/mi 00:10:53 Road
3.0 mi 14:10 min/mi 00:14:09 Technical Trail
4.0 mi 14:04 min/mi 00:14:03 Technical Trail
5.0 mi 14:09 min/mi 00:14:09 Technical Trail
6.0 mi 13:33 min/mi 00:13:32 Road (but uphill)
6.3 mi 11:31 min/mi 00:03:00 Road

Stoshew71 wrote: »

Anyway, using your 1:09:45 time, the MRC suggests the following:

11:11 vLT

Recovery Jogs 12:59-13:56
Long Runs 12:11-13:18
Easy (Normal Runs) 12:07-12:47

Steady State Runs 11:18-11:50
Tempo Runs 10:54-11;16
Tempo Intervals 10:43-11:10

Since I think you can race a 10K a lil faster, I would say that the above suggested paces could be shifted maybe 5-10 seconds faster.

So that would make it:

Recovery Jogs 12:49-13:46
Long Runs 12:01-13:08
Easy (Normal Runs) 11:57-12:37

Steady State Runs 11:08-11:40
Tempo Runs 10:44-11:06
Tempo Intervals 10:33-11:00

So this actually puts a fair number of my runs slower than where I typically run. I never would have expected that! But this is very, very helpful. I'll start training in earnest for my November half in June, and I'd like to use a "real" training plan that factors in tempo and speed/interval work as well as long runs and proper recovery runs. For my last half, I was just working up to being able to be on my feet for over two hours (and I only ran about 12 miles on my longest run beforehand). I was so incredibly nervous about not being able to do it that I really held back. I'd like to train for better performance this time. Thank you *so* much for figuring these numbers for me! I'm printing them out and looking for/devising a plan!

What I would suggest is a plan that has 3 quality days per week with easy or recovery in between.

One quality day is your long run which is ran at the LR pace.

I would then add a tempo day as your second quality day where you run the first mile as a warmup at easy pace then 20-30 minutes at tempo pace then finish with a 1 mile cooldown at easy pace. T = 10:44-11:06

Your third day could be another tempo, a fartlek run, or progression run. Here you can mix up your tempo by doing something like run a mile warmup then run a half mile at tempo (T), then run the next half mile at marathon (MP) or easy (E) pace, then run the next 1/2 mi at T then back to MP or E... repeat back and forth for about 2-6 miles. Then run last 2 miles at E pace. When you get real good, then increase the intervals from 1/2 mile to a full mile so it's 1 mi T, 1 mi MP/E, 1 mi T, 1 mi MP/E, 1 mi T... Eventually you can then get up to 2 mi intervals. For this workout you would use the tempo interval pace. (10:33-11:00) The other thing you can do which I highly recommend is insert a midweek medium long run at your E or LR pace as your third quality day. So this is another long run but not as long as your regular weekly long run. And you can always switch it so this quality day is different each week. One week it's a midweek long run. Next week its the tempo interval. The week after it's a fartlek. The week after maybe hill repeats. Do more of a certain type if you think you need more practice. If you are in a cutback week or your legs feel real tired for some reason, then just make this another E day.


This accounts for only 3 runs a week. If you run a 4th or 5th day in between these workouts, then that would just be either an E (easy) run or R (recovery) run. Depends where you fit them and how your legs feel. Like the day after your long run or a tempo would be a R run. If the number of miles you want to run doesn't add up to the mileage you need for the day, just pad the rest of the miles by running at E pace.

Long Runs should be done all year long but the other 2 quality days should only be like maybe 12-14 weeks away from your target race. After your target race, you will want to do a reverse taper and then build back up your miles slowly. 28 weeks away from your target race, all you want to do is build up your mileage with all E runs (base building for 12-14 weeks) then the 12-14 weeks with 2 more quality days added, then taper, then race, then reverse taper and repeat with base building. This is known as periodization.

Your speed/interval workouts have limited use. I would not even do a VO2Max type of speed or interval run unless you already been running consistently for 2 years, already built your base, and maybe use them sparingly in the last few weeks before your target race. Then stop doing them for a while. Improvements come in 4-6 workouts and then hit a diminishing return which then can then lead to over training. If you do do this type of speedwork, it replaces one of the other quality days (as long as you are not replacing the long run). Never replace a long run with a tempo or speed workout. Always do the long run each week.

Instead of VO2max speedwork, take one of your easy runs and do about 6x 20-30 second strides or surges. You can do this on 2 different easy days per week. This straetgy can be done all year long (even douring base building) as opposed to only a few weeks at the end.

But build your mileage up as much as possible but in slow increments all at your E pace. Do this for at least 14-16 weeks. Then maintain the mileage that you built up for another 14-16 weeks with the 2 extra quality days added. If you do any speed work, it's the last 4-6 weeks before you start your taper into your target race.

Date Miles today. Miles for April
4/1 REST DAY
4/2 14.3 miles - 14.3 <<< 13.1 HM + 1.2 warmup
4/3 REST DAY
4/4 4.2 miles - 18.5 << will try and get a second lunch time run in
4/4 4.0 miles - 22.5 << daily double, 3E +1HMP
4/5 8 miles - 30.5
4/6 4.2 miles - 34.7 << easy recovery 4 (taper week)
4/7 6 miles - 40.7
4/8 5 miles - 45.7





Upcoming races:
Oak Barrel HM - 4/2 <<<< 1:38:00 3 in AG
Bridge Street HM - 4/10
Cotton Row Run 10K - 5/30
Firecracker Chase 10.2 miler - 6/25