I understand and then I don't (scales and weighing and calorie worrying)
Replies
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BiggDaddy58 wrote: »"All of this.
Got a huge deficit you can do, you've got a ton of leeway for incorrect estimates. Take advantage of it. No reason to be nitpicky and make things difficult if you're being successful.
When you don't have that much leeway, lots of people find that weight loss is not so easy. That's when weighing comes in. "
Once again, I acknowledged this in my original post? I think perhaps some are taking offense w/o really reading what I wrote? I said "I know the weight comes off easier, when you are really overweight" and then "Maybe if I get down to 198 and have serious trouble losing anymore , I'll get more serious about it. But this is a lifestyle change, it should not, after time, require food scales and worrying over juice in a can..should it?"
So I basically said in my original post exactly what you just said and a slew of people liked..which means nobody read what I posted..they rushed to post? This happens a lot in online forums.
My thought is..as the first replier to my post said "those of us that got many years under our belts, we will stick with what we know and what works for us!"
I never said CHANGE what you're doing. I didn't say it was dumb or incorrect or stupid. I simply thought, if you have years under your belt, I would think at some point you would be able to tell what you can eat, what is good for you, what to avoid, how much to eat and so on.
My intent was not to antagonize people..or question what they were doing? I have only read a few thoughts, but that surely looks where the responses are headed to me. Defensive replies to what is perceived as an attack on what they do? That was not the intent of my original post.
I love this. Your intent is not to antagonize, but then you say something that does. Then you say you understand that everyone's gotta do what's right for them, but are they going to do that forever? You just keep see-sawing. A constant back and forth. You understand-then you don't. Why is this so important to you? Are you really that terrified that you might have to weigh and measure one day? Wait and see, and then ask for our advice.14 -
I use my scale right now even though I'm not logging or actively trying to lose. I use it because it's way easier than messing around with measuring cups/spoons. When I want to make pancakes, I don't have to dig out and dirty the right measuring cup to measure out my pancake mix. I just put a bowl on the scale, pour out as much as I need, add water and mix. It saves me a little trouble and I don't have to wash as many dishes. When I add creamer to my coffee, again coffee on scale, hit the tare button, and pour in my creamer until I hit the right amount. Makes my mornings a lot faster and I don't end up with overly sweet coffee. Plus I get to pretend I'm a mad scientist every morning. What's not to like about that?24
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I lost my first 20 pounds without weighing anything.. but I wasn't eating back exercise calories either... and I still had 60 pounds to lose.
Then I started to exercise more so I decided to start accounting for exercise and switched to TDEE-20%, and started to weigh my food... because I was interested in knowing exactly how much I was eating (and how much I really burn in a day, instead of just guessing). And it's easier on me when I KNOW that I can afford a cookie or a piece of chocolate, instead of guessing.
Whatever works for you. But again... when you have a lot to lose and a high TDEE, 200 calories won't make a huge difference. With a TDEE of 1800? You could easily GAIN weight if you're inaccurate.8 -
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janejellyroll wrote: »endlessfall16 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »endlessfall16 wrote: »OP, I already saw this side a few weeks in. I realize the body is really good at managing surplus and deficit and in a lot longer than 24 hours. I stopped weighing foods after 2 months in. It's unnecessary to be precise with 1xxx calories. Life (at least mine) is much more spontaneous and up/down than such precision. I have enough worries and I don't need another worry about calories. All the work and concern about foods are pale in comparison to a bit of effort used for self control around foods.
That said, everyone is different. Many people are comfortable with what they only know and not expanding. It's good that they are losing weight with what they learned on first day. You don't have to, and you cannot, understand everyone's tendencies.
Choosing to weigh doesn't mean that one is only comfortable with what they know and not expanding. It just means they have found a method that works for them.
I don't know if there are "tendencies" to "understand" as much as there are different methods that people can choose based on their lifestyle, goals, and preferences.
It's controversial when intelligence or capability is discussed. So we better not go there. But think about this, as most things in life there tends to be superior ways and rudimentary ways. Do you think all fit people need to weigh? The answer is obviously No. If people could get fit without weighing, do you think they would take that option? Yes.
If people could get fit without counting calories, they'd probably do that too. It doesn't mean there is anything wrong with using calorie counting as a tool for weight loss or that the people who choose it are only comfortable with what they know and don't want to expand.
Food scales, calorie databases, . . . these things are just tools. I don't think one can make assumptions about broader personality traits based on someone choosing to use certain tools for weight loss over others.
You are getting ahead of yourself. I never said anything wrong with counting. In fact it's the right way if that's all you know and are getting results. Actually there's no right or wrong. It's just effectiveness and the cost of it. Many people still use shovels to move dirt. Then, there are those who use tractors.
To me counting is just a rudimentary approach to controlling weight.
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Hot topic wowza
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Well OP, you began a thread essentially telling people who weigh their food that they are overdoing it and you wonder why people are getting defensive?
I still have 50-75 pounds to lose. I've been weighing my food since the beginning. I do it because I rest easy in knowin my exact CI so if I am inaccurate with my CO, I know I will still lose weight. It's important to me because I am not training for the Olympics or a weight title or any other hyperbolic situation you mentioned.
You really don't sound like you care to know why people are using food scales, so why bother posting about it? You keep telling people to go back and reread your post, implying that they skipped over it, but the whole thing is littered with "?"s and saying you don't understand and don't get it. So, people are trying to explain it to you. Take it or leave it.9 -
"OP, I already saw this side a few weeks in. I realize the body is really good at managing surplus and deficit and in a lot longer than 24 hours. I stopped weighing foods after 2 months in. It's unnecessary to be precise with 1xxx calories. Life (at least mine) is much more spontaneous and up/down than such precision. I have enough worries and I don't need another worry about calories. All the work and concern about foods are pale in comparison to a bit of effort used for self control around foods.
That said, everyone is different. Many people are comfortable with what they only know and not expanding. It's good that they are losing weight with what they learned on first day. You don't have to, and you cannot, understand everyone's tendencies."
Thanks for understanding my thoughts. I certainly did not intend them to alienate people, and it isn't a criticism of their choices. I appreciate the feedback.1 -
I get why you don't get it, but then again, read how many posts are created in a day on here saying "why am I not losing weight? I eat healthy." After questions, it almost always turns out they're eyeballing their food and using the cups / spoons per packages rather than going by weight. The reason most here on MFP swear by weighing solids is because it's really the only way to ensure you're actually eating the actual portion (i.e. 58 grams as opposed to APPROXIMATELY 4 slices of deli meat, which usually weight more than 58 grams).
Weighing is going to be more accurate, and will make all the difference in the world to those who are "stuck" or find they're just not losing weight, despite "sticking to the calories set by MFP".3 -
VioletRojo wrote: »BiggDaddy58 wrote: »
I know the weight comes off easier, when you are really overweight, however. if you know your BMR, your TDEE and your approximate calorie intake, along with your ballpark calorie output, you can lose weight, or maintain, w/o weighing things, and worrying about little things?
^^ Right there is the answer. When you have a lot of weight to lose, you afford to be less precise with your measurements. But it took me eight months to lose eight pounds last year. I had to very precise in my measurements because I had very little to lose. Get down to you last 10 pounds and we'll revisit the subject.
Edited to add that since losing the weight last year, I've lost my thyroid to cancer. I have no wiggle room anymore at all. I weigh every morsel that goes in my mouth.
Thank you for the excellent feedback. I do understand the less weight offers far less wiggle room. I also mentioned the health issues. I don't honestly know IF I'll have a "last 10 pounds" to get to. I know, healthwise I needed to lose weight. I was morbidly obese and pre diabetic at the age of 57. I figured this would be my last go round at success. My A1C was 7.4 in Jan. I made up mind and on March 1st jumped in with both feet. (I have done this before 20 years ago as well...went from 256 then to 198..funny how weight seems to find its way back)
My Dr. saw me the end of April and my A1C was 5.4 and he was very happy! I do not know my end goal. I think, I do not have one. I have a range. 195-205 and I am hope to stay within that range is my thought. I know according to charts, that is still too heavy for a guy that is 5'10 1/2" tall..but I am not getting down to 168 or whatever ridiculous weight I should be at according to the charts. Maybe IF I can get to 195..I'll change my thoughts and shoot for 185? That is quite a few pounds away. I appreciate the feedback! I wish you success in life's journey!0 -
I like to be as accurate as possible. It's that simple. I only weigh and measure when I am cutting though. It literally takes like an extra 3 minutes per day. If I'm cooking I'm in the kitchen anyway so really it takes 0 time. If I go out, it's easier to guesstimate since I weighed and measures for so long. Win win.
It was super easy to lose the first 70lbs but I had to weigh and measure for the last 10.
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Colorscheme wrote: »Personally, weighing isn't a must. It's just the most accurate way of counting calories and MFP gets bombarded a lot with "have lost no weight on ____ calories"
Usually due to people not counting correctly. So if you're not losing weight and not weighing food, try weighing and see if it helps.
Thanks! I appreciate the feedback. I do actually weigh some foods, if I have to. I did go and buy a nice food scale when I started this journey. Anything helps and I do realize it is far more accurate!
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endlessfall16 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »endlessfall16 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »endlessfall16 wrote: »OP, I already saw this side a few weeks in. I realize the body is really good at managing surplus and deficit and in a lot longer than 24 hours. I stopped weighing foods after 2 months in. It's unnecessary to be precise with 1xxx calories. Life (at least mine) is much more spontaneous and up/down than such precision. I have enough worries and I don't need another worry about calories. All the work and concern about foods are pale in comparison to a bit of effort used for self control around foods.
That said, everyone is different. Many people are comfortable with what they only know and not expanding. It's good that they are losing weight with what they learned on first day. You don't have to, and you cannot, understand everyone's tendencies.
Choosing to weigh doesn't mean that one is only comfortable with what they know and not expanding. It just means they have found a method that works for them.
I don't know if there are "tendencies" to "understand" as much as there are different methods that people can choose based on their lifestyle, goals, and preferences.
It's controversial when intelligence or capability is discussed. So we better not go there. But think about this, as most things in life there tends to be superior ways and rudimentary ways. Do you think all fit people need to weigh? The answer is obviously No. If people could get fit without weighing, do you think they would take that option? Yes.
If people could get fit without counting calories, they'd probably do that too. It doesn't mean there is anything wrong with using calorie counting as a tool for weight loss or that the people who choose it are only comfortable with what they know and don't want to expand.
Food scales, calorie databases, . . . these things are just tools. I don't think one can make assumptions about broader personality traits based on someone choosing to use certain tools for weight loss over others.
You are getting ahead of yourself. I never said anything wrong with counting. In fact it's the right way if that's all you know and are getting results. Actually there's no right or wrong. It's just effectiveness and the cost of it. Many people still use shovels to move dirt. Then, there are those who use tractors.
To me counting is just a rudimentary approach to controlling weight.
Hm. I am feeling some type of way about food weighers being compared to people who use shovels to move dirt (implication: ineffective and labor intensive, not worth it) versus people who use tractors (implication: effective and not very labor intensive, worth it) despite all the testimonials of people who count their calories.
You'd already stated your point. There is no need to insult calorie counters because it's not the way you'd do it.5 -
I think some of us enjoy this from a scientific perspective in knowing what goes in to us, and learning what the reaction will be. I myself love to cook, and that can be an exact science in quantity and measurements.
Allot of us got very overweight in what seems like a "short" period of time (ie.. waking up one day and saying WTF?? how did this happen?). I think it makes me feel very accountable for my actions, something I CLEARLY lacked prior in my life.
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VioletRojo wrote: »BiggDaddy58 wrote: »
But it took me eight months to lose eight pounds last year. I had to very precise in my measurements because I had very little to lose. Get down to you last 10 pounds and we'll revisit the subject.
I was so glad to see this. When younger if I put a few pounds on I could just cut back and in a few days off it came. Since being on MFP it has been so slow even though I can tell I am so much trimmer around my middle where it all goes. Like you it has averaged out about a lb a month despite all the cutbacks; even more healthy eating and exercising the best I can with disability compared to virtually nothing before. It is definitely much more frustrating when only a few pounds to lose as all those who have more are shedding half a stone a week
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afatpersonwholikesfood wrote: »BiggDaddy58 wrote: »however. if you know your BMR, your TDEE and your approximate calorie intake, along with your ballpark calorie output............
But this is a lifestyle change, it should not, after time, require food scales and worrying over juice in a can..should it?
1. If you want to calculate a TDEE that is more accurate than what you get from a calculator online, you need data going back at least 2-3 months, and that data needs to be as accurate as you can make it.
2. As for the lifestyle change aspect, for me, I plan on weighing and logging permanently. In the past, any time I lost a lot of weight, I had this idea that I needed to reach a point of normalcy. That meant no more weighing or logging and just eating like a normal person. For me, personally, this is something that is not possible. I would not have had such a massive weight problem my whole life if it were. I've come to accept this and look at my logging as part of my "treatment".
Plus, weighing everything means that you actually may get to eat more than you think sometimes. You know that you have X amount of calories left for something vs. just hoping that you do - at least within a margin of error that will still exist when weighing, but it's a lot smaller than eyeballing.
Thank you! I appreciate the thoughts you've shared. I am learning and we all learn from each other. I'm sure I could have phrased my original thought better..but it is really about understanding others and their journey. We all post, we all share. What works for some doesn't for others. To me, I like to learn about things I jump into. I wish you success on your journey!0 -
Don't mind me. I'm just moving my dirt with my rudimentary shovel. After all, I don't know any better. <eyeroll>13
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I love this post, OP!! Thank you for so eloquently saying what I've been feeling all along.
LOL..You're welcome. This post was not intended to tick people off, or anything of the sort..just a thought, as I see on so many threads..weigh everything..buy a scale..you could be overeating 300-1000 calories and so on. I just want to learn and understand the different mindsets.0 -
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OP, you have 2,200 cals to work with. You seem to be aiming for a 1,000 cal deficit. So even if you are off by 300 cals, you will lose weight at a good clip.
I am a smaller woman at a healthy weight. My maintenance is 1700 cals, so I only shoot for a 250 cal deficit. When I was eyeballing, I didn't lose weight, because after 50 cals here and 50 cals there, my deficit was gone.
Eyeballing how much pasta to put on my plate, or putting my plate on a food scale and adding pasta until I see the right number take basically the same amount of time. I would guess I maybe spend an extra 5 minutes a day using the scale, at most.
As far as "sticking with what I know, and not expanding", what I "knew" was eyeballing and measuring cups. I "expanded" to using the food scale. And now I am much better at eyeballing when at a restaurant or someone else's home. But I am a very number oriented person, so when I have access to the food scale I LIKE to use it.
Thanks for the thoughts. I get that part of it. Knowing I have more leeway..I also know that leeway will shrink over time as hopefully I shrink over time! I wish you success on your journey!0 -
As far as I can tell (and I admit I'm skimming) you asked two questions in your OP:
"But this is a lifestyle change, it should not, after time, require food scales and worrying over juice in a can..should it?"
and
"I am not suggesting that you stop using a food scale, or stop trying to determine how many calories you input and how many you output, but at some point it is overdoing it..isn't it?"
Both are questions that you asked and then answered within the same sentence. Both have the same answer: *shrug* it depends on the person.2 -
Hell, I cut on 3200 but still weigh and measure. It's easier to fit in all the yummy cake that way.3
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When you have a large amount of weight to lose, and reduce your calories as drastically as you did, then weighing matters less. A 308 pound man can lose if he estimates food. It is also possible just to cut out stuff like soft drinks or candy and lose without really counting calories.
The challenge is when you are trying to lose a pound a week and you only weigh 150 pounds. Then every gram really does matter.
Being 200 calories "off" a day matters very little when you are 300 pounds. But once you reach the lower range 200 calories extra a day can be the difference in loss and gain.
This. I am only trying to lose a half a pound a week. That's a weekly deficit of 1750 calories. 250 calories off in one day is enough to wipe out my deficit for the day. It's possible for me to go out to eat and wipe out my entire weekly deficit in one sitting, and in fact, I have done it. When you're working with slim margins like this, a little bit counts. But I'd rather count calories and weigh my food than severely restrict and lose muscle or mess up my metabolism or make myself crazy from deprivation that I can't maintain and don't need.5 -
endlessfall16 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »endlessfall16 wrote: »OP, I already saw this side a few weeks in. I realize the body is really good at managing surplus and deficit and in a lot longer than 24 hours. I stopped weighing foods after 2 months in. It's unnecessary to be precise with 1xxx calories. Life (at least mine) is much more spontaneous and up/down than such precision. I have enough worries and I don't need another worry about calories. All the work and concern about foods are pale in comparison to a bit of effort used for self control around foods.
That said, everyone is different. Many people are comfortable with what they only know and not expanding. It's good that they are losing weight with what they learned on first day. You don't have to, and you cannot, understand everyone's tendencies.
Choosing to weigh doesn't mean that one is only comfortable with what they know and not expanding. It just means they have found a method that works for them.
I don't know if there are "tendencies" to "understand" as much as there are different methods that people can choose based on their lifestyle, goals, and preferences.
It's controversial when intelligence or capability is discussed. So we better not go there. But think about this, as most things in life there tends to be superior ways and rudimentary ways. Do you think all fit people need to weigh? The answer is obviously No. If people could get fit without weighing, do you think they would take that option? Yes.
I do get this comment..
But, with MFP it is all about numbers.. Everything is about the numbers. Has nothing really to do with getting fit per se, etc....
If you hate numbers or math, then calorie counting is the absolutely wrong thing for you to be doing and should find an alternate way to achieve your goals.
Why OP is doing something he despises is what I do not understand.
There is always more than one way to get to the destination or to the end result, it is what you choose to get you there and the path you choose!
I really don't understand WHY you think I am doing something I despise? I am a numbers guy..so I love the calorie counting aspect...CICO..I also understand there is more than way..hence the post..asking for WHY you do it..how long you're going to do..always? Forever? Etc etc..At some point I hope to not have to log in and count calories..at some point in my life, I hope to have learned what is what..about how many calories, how much exercise I should get in..etc etc.
I hope not to be tied to an online app or food scale all my life? If you use these things and swear by them..how do you handle it when you can't use them? I've seen people say they take their food scale to a restaurant?
I'm like seriously??? I wish you success on your journey!2 -
FitFroglet wrote: »I'm glad you've found a way that works for you and that you find sustainable.
For me, weighing stuff is kind of a way of life now. It doesn't bother me.
However I've got other factors at play too - weighing helps me be accurate with my carb count which helps me manage my type 1 diabetes better so I have a bigger payoff to the time invested in weighing things out.
Great work on getting more activity into your routine, it sounds like you're doing all kinds of good things for your health.
Thank you for your thoughts! I appreciate the feedback and wish you well on your life's journey!1 -
I am going to try and reply to everyone, because I asked for feedback and I truly do appreciate it. As I stated, this post was not to criticize anyone's choices, but to understand where people are coming from. We all share a desire to be healthier, more fit, etc or we wouldn't be on here. Heck, I bought a scale..a nice stainless steel one too..set me back $20..and I found I don't use it often. Then I see advice given all the time as I said..get a scale..weigh everything..I take my scale everywhere..I have mine on a leash (Ok..maybe not that one)
I appreciate everyone's thoughts and wish you all well on your life's journey! I will try and reply to all..but it's time for my meager allotment of calories here for dinner/supper tonight!2 -
Personally I find using a food scale to be less time consuming than using measuring cups/spoons and less stressful than estimating. My portion sizes don't have to be exact if I don't want them to be and I don't worry so much about my numbers being accurate.2
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mathiseasy wrote: »endlessfall16 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »endlessfall16 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »endlessfall16 wrote: »OP, I already saw this side a few weeks in. I realize the body is really good at managing surplus and deficit and in a lot longer than 24 hours. I stopped weighing foods after 2 months in. It's unnecessary to be precise with 1xxx calories. Life (at least mine) is much more spontaneous and up/down than such precision. I have enough worries and I don't need another worry about calories. All the work and concern about foods are pale in comparison to a bit of effort used for self control around foods.
That said, everyone is different. Many people are comfortable with what they only know and not expanding. It's good that they are losing weight with what they learned on first day. You don't have to, and you cannot, understand everyone's tendencies.
Choosing to weigh doesn't mean that one is only comfortable with what they know and not expanding. It just means they have found a method that works for them.
I don't know if there are "tendencies" to "understand" as much as there are different methods that people can choose based on their lifestyle, goals, and preferences.
It's controversial when intelligence or capability is discussed. So we better not go there. But think about this, as most things in life there tends to be superior ways and rudimentary ways. Do you think all fit people need to weigh? The answer is obviously No. If people could get fit without weighing, do you think they would take that option? Yes.
If people could get fit without counting calories, they'd probably do that too. It doesn't mean there is anything wrong with using calorie counting as a tool for weight loss or that the people who choose it are only comfortable with what they know and don't want to expand.
Food scales, calorie databases, . . . these things are just tools. I don't think one can make assumptions about broader personality traits based on someone choosing to use certain tools for weight loss over others.
You are getting ahead of yourself. I never said anything wrong with counting. In fact it's the right way if that's all you know and are getting results. Actually there's no right or wrong. It's just effectiveness and the cost of it. Many people still use shovels to move dirt. Then, there are those who use tractors.
To me counting is just a rudimentary approach to controlling weight.
Hm. I am feeling some type of way about food weighers being compared to people who use shovels to move dirt (implication: ineffective and labor intensive, not worth it) versus people who use tractors (implication: effective and not very labor intensive, worth it) despite all the testimonials of people who count their calories.
You'd already stated your point. There is no need to insult calorie counters because it's not the way you'd do it.
It comes down to personality. You could see what I said negative or you could see positive. Your choice.
I still like to throw that out there in case those who find counting tedious and not long term and wish to find another approach or just gain a bit more confidence.
Edit: indeed I just read that the OP is one of the people who states ".At some point I hope to not have to log in and count calories..at some point in my life, I hope to have learned what is what.."1 -
I weigh everything except celery and cucumber.
I lost around 30lb without weighing, just eyeballing portions and choosing healthier foods but eventually the weight stopped coming off. When I joined mfp and started weighing food, the losses began again. I'm a 5'1 female and my wiggle room is just too small to guess calories.
I don't take my scale out of the house and just guess at calories eaten out (which is rare) or at friends houses and I don't worry about it. But I can only do that because I have a precise handle on things the rest of the time. Far from making me worry about my intake, the scale removes any worry because there is no guessing involved. If I don't lose weight one week, I just shrug and keep going, because I know it'll even out eventually.2 -
endlessfall16 wrote: »mathiseasy wrote: »endlessfall16 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »endlessfall16 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »endlessfall16 wrote: »OP, I already saw this side a few weeks in. I realize the body is really good at managing surplus and deficit and in a lot longer than 24 hours. I stopped weighing foods after 2 months in. It's unnecessary to be precise with 1xxx calories. Life (at least mine) is much more spontaneous and up/down than such precision. I have enough worries and I don't need another worry about calories. All the work and concern about foods are pale in comparison to a bit of effort used for self control around foods.
That said, everyone is different. Many people are comfortable with what they only know and not expanding. It's good that they are losing weight with what they learned on first day. You don't have to, and you cannot, understand everyone's tendencies.
Choosing to weigh doesn't mean that one is only comfortable with what they know and not expanding. It just means they have found a method that works for them.
I don't know if there are "tendencies" to "understand" as much as there are different methods that people can choose based on their lifestyle, goals, and preferences.
It's controversial when intelligence or capability is discussed. So we better not go there. But think about this, as most things in life there tends to be superior ways and rudimentary ways. Do you think all fit people need to weigh? The answer is obviously No. If people could get fit without weighing, do you think they would take that option? Yes.
If people could get fit without counting calories, they'd probably do that too. It doesn't mean there is anything wrong with using calorie counting as a tool for weight loss or that the people who choose it are only comfortable with what they know and don't want to expand.
Food scales, calorie databases, . . . these things are just tools. I don't think one can make assumptions about broader personality traits based on someone choosing to use certain tools for weight loss over others.
You are getting ahead of yourself. I never said anything wrong with counting. In fact it's the right way if that's all you know and are getting results. Actually there's no right or wrong. It's just effectiveness and the cost of it. Many people still use shovels to move dirt. Then, there are those who use tractors.
To me counting is just a rudimentary approach to controlling weight.
Hm. I am feeling some type of way about food weighers being compared to people who use shovels to move dirt (implication: ineffective and labor intensive, not worth it) versus people who use tractors (implication: effective and not very labor intensive, worth it) despite all the testimonials of people who count their calories.
You'd already stated your point. There is no need to insult calorie counters because it's not the way you'd do it.
It comes down to personality. You could see what I said negative or you could see positive. Your choice.
I still like to throw that out there in case those who find counting tedious and not long term and wish to find another approach or just gain a bit more confidence.
Edit: indeed I just read that the OP is one of the people who states ".At some point I hope to not have to log in and count calories..at some point in my life, I hope to have learned what is what.."
I fail to see how my personality or the wording of the OP has anything to do with the condescending and insulting tone of your post.
Whatever, agree to disagree.2
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