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Paying the healthcare costs of obesity
Packerjohn
Posts: 4,855 Member
in Debate Club
Sonce a tax on junk food isn't popular, what are suggestions how the US can pay the increased health care costs of obesity and related conditions?
For purposes of.this qiestion, raising taxes on"the rich" or corporations isn't an acceptable answer.
For purposes of.this qiestion, raising taxes on"the rich" or corporations isn't an acceptable answer.
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Replies
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What, are we all technocrats now?7
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Packerjohn wrote: »For purposes of.this qiestion, raising taxes on"the rich" or corporations isn't an acceptable answer.
Maybe it is, maybe it isn't; that's ultimately up to the voters to decide. And in the same spirit as your disclaimer, I'll say that whether an answer is acceptable or not isn't what matters, it's whether an answer is viable. It's an aggregate problem that can't be solved by a handful of individuals.10 -
The same as we pay for the health costs of any other health or medical condition. Should we tax running shoes to pay for all the therapy and orthopedic surgeries that runners incur?
You could even make the case that healthy people who live longer lives should be taxed because they use up more things like Social Security.
The fact is that there are multiple causes for obesity, diabetes, etc. Some are within people's control, some not as much. If you look at anyone's lifestyle, you will find behaviors that, over the long run, lead to health problems and medical costs. It is counterproductive and even a tad arrogant to blame select groups that you find fault with and subject them to a type of collective punishment.
We all live together in society. We all do good things and not so good things, do things that contribute to society and do things that cost society. In the end it all evens out. Trying to shame people into "paying" for their "sins" is ultimately pointless, a distasteful vestige of our "Puritan" roots.
The more constructive approach is to provide knowledge, resources, healthcare, etc., so that people have the tools to lead healthier lifestyles and that will decrease the costs.68 -
Whatever is being taxed now will probably get a portion cut out to pay for universal healthcare.1
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No sin taxes, thank you.
And if for some reason I am forced to pay per pound, then insurance companies covering weight loss programs should be written into the ACA.
I'm not even talking about the big things like bariatric surgery; I can't even see a dietician or a counselor for eating issues without paying 100% out of pocket. My monthly weight check at my doctor's office, which I keep up because it's good for accountability and seeing my true month-to-month weight change, consists of 5 minutes with a scale and a nurse. My ACA-compliant insurance company refuses to cover any portion of it.
In general, headlines about X lifestyle costing the country $$$$$ are smokescreens. The US is in heaps of debt, and it's not the fat smoker on the corner that's responsible for that. Look higher up.31 -
Why not throw in alcohol drinkers and cigarette smokers in to the mix while you are at it? Or tax seniors who manage to live well beyond their appointed age?
Something I learned in my line of business is to get to root cause. Blame chasing never solves the problem.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSjGouBmo0M 22 -
Let them pay for it themselves. They did it to themselves. Allow hospitals the right to turn away people who cannot afford to pay for their services.
And this is coming from someone who refuses to have health insurance, so yeah, I'd probably get turned away too. Doesn't change the fact that I don't deserve to receive anyone else's labor value for free.7 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Let them pay for it themselves. They did it to themselves. Allow hospitals the right to turn away people who cannot afford to pay for their services.
And this is coming from someone who refuses to have health insurance, so yeah, I'd probably get turned away too. Doesn't change the fact that I don't deserve to receive anyone else's labor value for free.
You'd have to apply that thinking more broadly. Should a hospital be free and clear to turn away the following? Should they all be forced to pay even with insurance?:
* HIV (not from a blood transfusion/birth)
* Hep C (same deal as above)
* Non-native diseases as a result of choosing to travel
* Injuries that wouldn't have occurred otherwise - whether through occupation, hobby, or not wearing a helmet/seatbelt. Say, cutting off a finger while doing some amateur woodworking.
* Pregnancy (surely they did that to themselves - perhaps with a bit of help)
* Suicide attempts
* Lung cancer in someone who smokes. Most cancers that occur in someone who smokes - plenty are linked, but none can be said to have been directly caused solely by smoking.
* A diabetic who hasn't been taking insulin as directed
* A person with mental illness who hasn't seen a psychiatrist or been on meds for several months and is now in crisis
* Cirrhosis in an alcoholic
* Osteoporosis related fractures in an old lady who has avoided calcium-rich foods her whole life
* Coal miner's lung in a coal miner
* Any "lifestyle" disease that presents in a normal-BMI person who consumes the standard American diet and doesn't meet the minimum recommendations for exercise
* Any person without insurance who will die without emergency surgical intervention. Appendicitis, for example
I'm not saying this as a person who thinks that the ACA is a perfect solution or as someone with a PhD in the ins-and-outs of healthcare. I benefit from the ACA and receive a tax subsidy, but I can see the bigger picture. I think the problem lies in more than one area. Why is medical school so expensive? Why are procedures in the US so pricy? Why does a 10-minute scan of the abdomen cost $3,000? Why are certain prescriptions hundreds or thousands of dollars? Why can one hospital stay bankrupt someone without insurance? If you notice, insurance companies pay a fraction of the cash price. I had a CT of my abdomen. The facility received a few hundred from my insurance and $200 from me. What about the other $2,000 in that cost? Where did it go?26 -
So far as I am concerned, the only exceptions to what I said, are infectious diseases, as those can affect others if not handled.
And if you are alluding to insurance being the problem, then yeah, I'd agree. The ACA did nothing but distort the market even further.5 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Let them pay for it themselves. They did it to themselves. Allow hospitals the right to turn away people who cannot afford to pay for their services.
And this is coming from someone who refuses to have health insurance, so yeah, I'd probably get turned away too. Doesn't change the fact that I don't deserve to receive anyone else's labor value for free.
U nfortunately if you pass put on a street and someone calls 911 the hospital will still treat you and if you can't pay it.the hospital eats the cost.
This isn't the old west where you can just go.out back and die in peace. Sack up and get insurance so the rest of us aren't paying for you13 -
Why not throw in alcohol drinkers and cigarette smokers in to the mix while you are at it? Or tax seniors who manage to live well beyond their appointed age?
Something I learned in my line of business is to get to root cause. Blame chasing never solves the problem.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSjGouBmo0M
They are actually paying additional taxes for their "vices"2 -
Packerjohn wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Let them pay for it themselves. They did it to themselves. Allow hospitals the right to turn away people who cannot afford to pay for their services.
And this is coming from someone who refuses to have health insurance, so yeah, I'd probably get turned away too. Doesn't change the fact that I don't deserve to receive anyone else's labor value for free.
U nfortunately if you pass put on a street and someone calls 911 the hospital will still treat you and if you can't pay it.the hospital eats the cost.
This isn't the old west where you can just go.out back and die in peace. Sack up and get insurance so the rest of us aren't paying for you
You aren't paying for anything. I haven't been to a doctor or hospital (other than for my CDL physicals, which my company pays for) in more than 20 years. I'm not paying in on a "maybe". Not the gambling type. I've been injured several times in that duration, but the fact is, I utterly loathe the medical provider community, and would quite literally rather die than go to a hospital.
And the fact that you are paying for others is your own fault. The day everyone who pays says no at once, it ends.2 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Let them pay for it themselves. They did it to themselves. Allow hospitals the right to turn away people who cannot afford to pay for their services.
And this is coming from someone who refuses to have health insurance, so yeah, I'd probably get turned away too. Doesn't change the fact that I don't deserve to receive anyone else's labor value for free.
U nfortunately if you pass put on a street and someone calls 911 the hospital will still treat you and if you can't pay it.the hospital eats the cost.
This isn't the old west where you can just go.out back and die in peace. Sack up and get insurance so the rest of us aren't paying for you
You aren't paying for anything. I haven't been to a doctor or hospital (other than for my CDL physicals, which my company pays for) in more than 20 years. I'm not paying in on a "maybe". Not the gambling type. I've been injured several times in that duration, but the fact is, I utterly loathe the medical provider community, and would quite literally rather die than go to a hospital.
And the fact that you are paying for others is your own fault. The day everyone who pays says no at once, it ends.
So you're been fine, you drop in thr street tomorrow, who's paying a 3-400k medical bill?
They won't let you lay there and die.3 -
Packerjohn wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Let them pay for it themselves. They did it to themselves. Allow hospitals the right to turn away people who cannot afford to pay for their services.
And this is coming from someone who refuses to have health insurance, so yeah, I'd probably get turned away too. Doesn't change the fact that I don't deserve to receive anyone else's labor value for free.
U nfortunately if you pass put on a street and someone calls 911 the hospital will still treat you and if you can't pay it.the hospital eats the cost.
This isn't the old west where you can just go.out back and die in peace. Sack up and get insurance so the rest of us aren't paying for you
You aren't paying for anything. I haven't been to a doctor or hospital (other than for my CDL physicals, which my company pays for) in more than 20 years. I'm not paying in on a "maybe". Not the gambling type. I've been injured several times in that duration, but the fact is, I utterly loathe the medical provider community, and would quite literally rather die than go to a hospital.
And the fact that you are paying for others is your own fault. The day everyone who pays says no at once, it ends.
So you're been fine, you drop in thr street tomorrow, who's paying a 3-400k medical bill?
They won't let you lay there and die.
They won't have any choice. That's as far as I will expand upon the matter.0 -
I've always thought that an HSA would be the right solution for the healthcare issue (to include obesity). Individuals would be required to save a portion of their pay (before taxes) for broadly defined healthcare expenses. They could use these funds at their discretion for things like normal health costs, lasik, weight loss surgery, Insurance premiums, almost anything health related. These funds could also be willed or donated.
As people begin working while young, they will likely build up a surplus. This could be coupled high deductible insurance at affordable rates. It could also cause deflation in the lower healthcare market as people will be more judicious with their funds.3 -
I've always thought that an HSA would be the right solution for the healthcare issue (to include obesity). Individuals would be required to save a portion of their pay (before taxes) for broadly defined healthcare expenses. They could use these funds at their discretion for things like normal health costs, lasik, weight loss surgery, Insurance premiums, almost anything health related. These funds could also be willed or donated.
As people begin working while young, they will likely build up a surplus. This could be coupled high deductible insurance at affordable rates. It could also cause deflation in the lower healthcare market as people will be more judicious with their funds.
I would be fine with that, assuming that there is an opt-out, and that in case of such opt-outs, hospitals are allowed under Federal law to turn said opt-outs away.0 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »I've always thought that an HSA would be the right solution for the healthcare issue (to include obesity). Individuals would be required to save a portion of their pay (before taxes) for broadly defined healthcare expenses. They could use these funds at their discretion for things like normal health costs, lasik, weight loss surgery, Insurance premiums, almost anything health related. These funds could also be willed or donated.
As people begin working while young, they will likely build up a surplus. This could be coupled high deductible insurance at affordable rates. It could also cause deflation in the lower healthcare market as people will be more judicious with their funds.
I would be fine with that, assuming that there is an opt-out, and that in case of such opt-outs, hospitals are allowed under Federal law to turn said opt-outs away.
I'd be fine with that.1 -
Are you also going to tax smokers? Alcoholics? Motorcycle riders? Race car driver? Equestrians?
People engage in all kinds of activities that increase risk of injury or illness. Choosing one group to tax is called discrimination.
Have been obese for a large portion of my adult life, and I haven't had a single illness or medical expense related to my weight. However, I have had many bills related to my physical activities (all sustained when I was not obese). Obesity is a potential indicator or contributing factor to other health issues, in very few cases does it have medical complications alone.6 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »I've always thought that an HSA would be the right solution for the healthcare issue (to include obesity). Individuals would be required to save a portion of their pay (before taxes) for broadly defined healthcare expenses. They could use these funds at their discretion for things like normal health costs, lasik, weight loss surgery, Insurance premiums, almost anything health related. These funds could also be willed or donated.
As people begin working while young, they will likely build up a surplus. This could be coupled high deductible insurance at affordable rates. It could also cause deflation in the lower healthcare market as people will be more judicious with their funds.
I would be fine with that, assuming that there is an opt-out, and that in case of such opt-outs, hospitals are allowed under Federal law to turn said opt-outs away.
I'd be fine with that.
...dear god, are you a unicorn? Someone who is capable of thinking of ways to help the whole without infringing upon the individual? I almost feel like I should believe that your response was sarcastic.
If more people could grasp that people don't need saving from themselves, I'm pretty sure we could all agree on a lot more.3 -
Civilized countries have socialized healthcare, just like they have socialized education and other things-that-everyone-needs as part of their overall tax base. Just like we educate the academic outliers who are extremely expensive to educate, there are medical outliers who will be expensive to treat. It's the old 80-20 rule.
Injuries from exercise are hugely expensive and getting more so, just like obesity costs. Healthy people who exercise may end up costing more over a lifetime than obese people who die early. Plus, obese people generally don't need to be rescued by helicopter ambulances when they get hurt in the wilderness.
The US just needs to bite the bullet and move into the 21st century. Cut out the insurance middleman and all of the medical lobbying to lawmakers and direct advertising to patients. We already have a framework with Medicare that can be expanded to everyone and then tweaked.17 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Let them pay for it themselves. They did it to themselves. Allow hospitals the right to turn away people who cannot afford to pay for their services.
And this is coming from someone who refuses to have health insurance, so yeah, I'd probably get turned away too. Doesn't change the fact that I don't deserve to receive anyone else's labor value for free.
U nfortunately if you pass put on a street and someone calls 911 the hospital will still treat you and if you can't pay it.the hospital eats the cost.
This isn't the old west where you can just go.out back and die in peace. Sack up and get insurance so the rest of us aren't paying for you
You aren't paying for anything. I haven't been to a doctor or hospital (other than for my CDL physicals, which my company pays for) in more than 20 years. I'm not paying in on a "maybe". Not the gambling type. I've been injured several times in that duration, but the fact is, I utterly loathe the medical provider community, and would quite literally rather die than go to a hospital.
And the fact that you are paying for others is your own fault. The day everyone who pays says no at once, it ends.
I never needed health insurance until I needed it. If your username reflects your age, you're about my age. I didn't need coverage for anything until 2015. I needed my gallbladder out. Without insurance, I would have been in the hole for $20,000. Even the most responsible, self-sufficient people don't tend to have that lying around. Without insurance, I wouldn't have had it out. No big deal except that a few years down the road, I would have had more costly complications since it turned out I had a beanbag of small stones capable of passing into ducts and out of whack liver enzymes from it. The more things show up the older you get, even if you treat your body like a temple. Most people don't have health issues in their 20's or early 30's.
My dad was completely disabled suddenly at 40. He biked, lifted weights, didn't smoke or drink, and had a normal BMI. I don't care about those things, but I am pointing them out since others look at this as fault or no fault. He had just bought a house and had 4 kids to support. His medical bills, from then until the end of his life, are unfathomable. He would have simply died without healthcare assistance, and my family would have been in poverty. Instead, I got to grow up in a safe neighborhood with decent schools and have him in my life as a positive influence until he was 65. Multiply our little family unit on a population level. Which impact was better for society? More fatherless kids in poverty or the alternative?
Healthcare is not a black-and-white problem with black-and-white solutions.
21 -
Are you also going to tax smokers? Alcoholics? Motorcycle riders? Race car driver? Equestrians?
People engage in all kinds of activities that increase risk of injury or illness. Choosing one group to tax is called discrimination.
Have been obese for a large portion of my adult life, and I haven't had a single illness or medical expense related to my weight. However, I have had many bills related to my physical activities (all sustained when I was not obese). Obesity is a potential indicator or contributing factor to other health issues, in very few cases does it have medical complications alone.
The people you mention generally have higher health and life insurance premiums1 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »I've always thought that an HSA would be the right solution for the healthcare issue (to include obesity). Individuals would be required to save a portion of their pay (before taxes) for broadly defined healthcare expenses. They could use these funds at their discretion for things like normal health costs, lasik, weight loss surgery, Insurance premiums, almost anything health related. These funds could also be willed or donated.
As people begin working while young, they will likely build up a surplus. This could be coupled high deductible insurance at affordable rates. It could also cause deflation in the lower healthcare market as people will be more judicious with their funds.
I would be fine with that, assuming that there is an opt-out, and that in case of such opt-outs, hospitals are allowed under Federal law to turn said opt-outs away.
Unfortunately in the US opt outs won't be allowed to happen. They will get care and be a leach on society (I am not speaking about those who can't pay, rather those who could pay insurance premiums but don't)1 -
The people you mention generally have higher health and life insurance premiums
Life premiums, yes. Health, no. At least not in the USA where only smoking status, age, and bmi can be used to change rates.1 -
afatpersonwholikesfood wrote: »Even the most responsible, self-sufficient people don't tend to have that lying around.
Not trying to be a dick, but some do. I dropped out of highschool in the 9th grade; I've been working full time (60-70 hours per week) since I was 19. I have no kids, keep my overhead low (yeah, I live in "the hood"), and just generally don't spend money on stupid things. Even after two failed marriages, I am more financially stable than most people in their 50s.
Our spending problem in this country isn't just of a government issue.1 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »afatpersonwholikesfood wrote: »Even the most responsible, self-sufficient people don't tend to have that lying around.
Not trying to be a dick, but some do. I dropped out of highschool in the 9th grade; I've been working full time (60-70 hours per week) since I was 19. I have no kids, keep my overhead low (yeah, I live in "the hood"), and just generally don't spend money on stupid things. Even after two failed marriages, I am more financially stable than most people in their 50s.
Our spending problem in this country isn't just of a government issue.
You're unusual. 2/3 of the US population would have issues paying an unexpected 1000 expense.
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/965e48ed609245539ed315f83e01b6a21 -
Packerjohn wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »afatpersonwholikesfood wrote: »Even the most responsible, self-sufficient people don't tend to have that lying around.
Not trying to be a dick, but some do. I dropped out of highschool in the 9th grade; I've been working full time (60-70 hours per week) since I was 19. I have no kids, keep my overhead low (yeah, I live in "the hood"), and just generally don't spend money on stupid things. Even after two failed marriages, I am more financially stable than most people in their 50s.
Our spending problem in this country isn't just of a government issue.
You're unusual. 2/3 of the US population would have issues paying an unexpected 1000 expense.
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/965e48ed609245539ed315f83e01b6a2
And again, not trying to be a dick, but that's not my problem, and it annoys me when people insist that I should make it my problem. I live within my means. I can't help it that others refuse to do so.9 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »afatpersonwholikesfood wrote: »Even the most responsible, self-sufficient people don't tend to have that lying around.
Not trying to be a dick, but some do. I dropped out of highschool in the 9th grade; I've been working full time (60-70 hours per week) since I was 19. I have no kids, keep my overhead low (yeah, I live in "the hood"), and just generally don't spend money on stupid things. Even after two failed marriages, I am more financially stable than most people in their 50s.
Our spending problem in this country isn't just of a government issue.
You're unusual. 2/3 of the US population would have issues paying an unexpected 1000 expense.
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/965e48ed609245539ed315f83e01b6a2
And again, not trying to be a dick, but that's not my problem, and it annoys me when people insist that I should make it my problem. I live within my means. I can't help it that others refuse to do so.
I live within my means and never pay a bill late. I have a savings account. I have no debt. I don't get any financial support from family or friends; my husband and I take care of our emergencies. My husband did rack up some bills for dental work and minor health issues a few years back. We didn't just write it off; we set up a payment plan and spent about 3 years paying that off. No one else paid for that, ultimately. We also lived in the "hood" and would have qualified for Section 8 had we applied. We never lived paycheck to paycheck because of how careful we were. I'm proud of those things because our income was dangerously low at the time he needed those services, and I don't have a lot of patience for people who make more than we did then but can't keep up on basic expenses. I understand emergencies, though. $20,000 that I could blow on what, at the time, seemed a nonessential surgery? Yeah, no. I wouldn't have $20,000 for an essential surgery. That amount would have been my husband's gross income for a year at one point in time.6 -
Lots of people can't live within their means due to low wages, or if they do, they have no extra per month and not because they're spending too much. A recent article demonstrated that a full time, minimum wage job will not afford you rent in any major US city.
These things contribute to why it's more complicated than a lot of people assume.7 -
@Packerjohn , how long have you been on this hobby horse?4
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