INTERMITTENT FASTING - A LIFESTYLE MAKEOVER
Replies
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GaleHawkins wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I don't eat low carb at all, but have never had an issue fasting. I do it from time to time for religious reasons (full day fast).
That is because you went ZERO carb for the day. Carbs are the driver of most all cravings. Hungry is real so we do not die but cravings are not so much.
I don't have cravings and I eat plenty of carbs (about 45-50%). The last time I recall having a real craving was when I was vegetarian for Lent and started thinking about my planned Easter dinner with lamb (and it was the lamb I was thinking about, not the potatoes or dessert). Obviously, that was some months ago. Occasionally I really want a particular food item or meal, but I wouldn't call it a craving, and it's something I can choose to fit in or not.
The idea that I was "keto" or "fat adapted" (more than usual) because I fasted for a day makes no sense. We all know there's an adjustment period before one is fully keto. It doesn't just kick in the minute you miss a usual breakfast.2 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I don't eat low carb at all, but have never had an issue fasting. I do it from time to time for religious reasons (full day fast).
That is because you went ZERO carb for the day. Carbs are the driver of most all cravings. Hungry is real so we do not die but cravings are not so much.
No. No they aren't. Are you seriously suggesting that people on low carb diets have no cravings for food?
I lost my carb cravings after not eating them for two weeks.
I still get hungry but I just make sure on any day my total carbs are <50 grams in the process of feeding my hunger. I can now go 12 hours without eating and still function. When I lived on a high carb diet after 4 hours I had to eat or drink more carbs to kind of function. Fat is more like diesel fuel where carbs is more of a flash fuel like gasoline.
That's great that it works for you. But many people in this thread are saying the opposite.
Any how many do you think that are saying the opposite have gone 90 days eating <50 grams of carbs daily?
I am not saying people should go low carb. I am just saying do not make a negative statement about a way of eating that one has not tried that is known to be medically safe for 100 years for all age groups.1 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »I don't know why but IF doesn't have a massive effect on my appetite all day long. When I eat first thing in the morning, I am starving all day long...so there is a little magic for me. I don't know why but it does add up to a sum greater than its parts for me.
@ogtmama I think IF like Keto or LCHF we have to become fat adapted before IF may work. Getting into ketosis the first time took me a couple weeks I think. IF as I see it just LCHF. We are low carb because we are not eating and we are high fat because we're burning body fat.
IF need not be LCHF at all. I've considered doing 5:2 or even 16:8 (I used to eat that way for periods of time and never found it difficult), and read about it, and LCHF wasn't an element.
I was wrong. IF is only ZERO carb if you will think about it.
IF and Keto are functionally the same. You are withholding carb intake in IF and greatly reducing carbs to do keto.
The major way to make fat the fastest is carbs. The best way to lose fat is the inverse.
Technically the fastest way to make fat is to eat High Carb and High Fat at the same time. Processed food can work well to fatten up on for this reason. A Big Mac comes to mind especially chased down with sugar water.
Considering that fat enters the blood stream directly as fat and carbs need to go through DNLG I don't believe you are correct here. Carbs take a long time to become fat unless you are already full on glycogen, which means you would be highly over nourished. Now if you are talking about a systemic overview where you reduce fat oxidation while Insulin levels are raised due to a recent feeding on carbs then I can see that being a sort of backdoor way of saying this but technically it would not be correct.
The fastest way to lose fat is well know, be in a large caloric deficit.
Yeah, fast food is a great ball of energy that most people don't need.
Can we all just agreed a caloric deficit is REQUIRED to lose fat and there is no white or black magic that will cause FAT LOSS so we do have have to repost and repost that statement?
We understand that concept very well, it's you constantly talking about nothing but carbs in spite of that that makes us scratch our heads.3 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »Why do think over eating of carbs increases one risk of developing cancer but over eating of fats does not increase the risk of developing cancer then?
Carbs cause cancer?
There was nothing in my post about carbs causing cancer so I do not understand your question.0 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »I don't know why but IF doesn't have a massive effect on my appetite all day long. When I eat first thing in the morning, I am starving all day long...so there is a little magic for me. I don't know why but it does add up to a sum greater than its parts for me.
@ogtmama I think IF like Keto or LCHF we have to become fat adapted before IF may work. Getting into ketosis the first time took me a couple weeks I think. IF as I see it just LCHF. We are low carb because we are not eating and we are high fat because we're burning body fat.
IF need not be LCHF at all. I've considered doing 5:2 or even 16:8 (I used to eat that way for periods of time and never found it difficult), and read about it, and LCHF wasn't an element.
I was wrong. IF is only ZERO carb if you will think about it.
I don't think you can determine a person's carb percentage or keto status based on how they eat for a day (and the 500 calories on a fasting day need not be LCHF in a 5:2 day), let alone 16 hours or whatever. That's like claiming I'm keto now because between dinner and breakfast (occasionally lunch) I eat nothing.The major way to make fat the fastest is carbs. The best way to lose fat is the inverse.
Simply not accurate. Our bodies can quite efficiently store fat as fat. Our bodies can easily burn fat (and will) on any macro percentage.Technically the fastest way to make fat is to eat High Carb and High Fat at the same time. Processed food can work well to fatten up on for this reason. A Big Mac comes to mind especially chased down with sugar water.
So a BigMac=processed, but McD's sausage is not processed, according to you? So basically it's just the bread that counts as "processed"?2 -
stevencloser wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »I don't know why but IF doesn't have a massive effect on my appetite all day long. When I eat first thing in the morning, I am starving all day long...so there is a little magic for me. I don't know why but it does add up to a sum greater than its parts for me.
@ogtmama I think IF like Keto or LCHF we have to become fat adapted before IF may work. Getting into ketosis the first time took me a couple weeks I think. IF as I see it just LCHF. We are low carb because we are not eating and we are high fat because we're burning body fat.
IF need not be LCHF at all. I've considered doing 5:2 or even 16:8 (I used to eat that way for periods of time and never found it difficult), and read about it, and LCHF wasn't an element.
I was wrong. IF is only ZERO carb if you will think about it.
IF and Keto are functionally the same. You are withholding carb intake in IF and greatly reducing carbs to do keto.
The major way to make fat the fastest is carbs. The best way to lose fat is the inverse.
Technically the fastest way to make fat is to eat High Carb and High Fat at the same time. Processed food can work well to fatten up on for this reason. A Big Mac comes to mind especially chased down with sugar water.
Considering that fat enters the blood stream directly as fat and carbs need to go through DNLG I don't believe you are correct here. Carbs take a long time to become fat unless you are already full on glycogen, which means you would be highly over nourished. Now if you are talking about a systemic overview where you reduce fat oxidation while Insulin levels are raised due to a recent feeding on carbs then I can see that being a sort of backdoor way of saying this but technically it would not be correct.
The fastest way to lose fat is well know, be in a large caloric deficit.
Yeah, fast food is a great ball of energy that most people don't need.
Can we all just agreed a caloric deficit is REQUIRED to lose fat and there is no white or black magic that will cause FAT LOSS so we do have have to repost and repost that statement?
We understand that concept very well, it's you constantly talking about nothing but carbs in spite of that that makes us scratch our heads.
The thread is about going without carbs protein and fats for a period of time.
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EvgeniZyntx wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »I don't know why but IF doesn't have a massive effect on my appetite all day long. When I eat first thing in the morning, I am starving all day long...so there is a little magic for me. I don't know why but it does add up to a sum greater than its parts for me.
@ogtmama I think IF like Keto or LCHF we have to become fat adapted before IF may work. Getting into ketosis the first time took me a couple weeks I think. IF as I see it just LCHF. We are low carb because we are not eating and we are high fat because we're burning body fat.
IF need not be LCHF at all. I've considered doing 5:2 or even 16:8 (I used to eat that way for periods of time and never found it difficult), and read about it, and LCHF wasn't an element.
I was wrong. IF is only ZERO carb if you will think about it.
IF and Keto are functionally the same. You are withholding carb intake in IF and greatly reducing carbs to do keto.
The major way to make fat the fastest is carbs. The best way to lose fat is the inverse.
Technically the fastest way to make fat is to eat High Carb and High Fat at the same time. Processed food can work well to fatten up on for this reason. A Big Mac comes to mind especially chased down with sugar water.
No. I skip breakfast and wait about 15-16 hours after eating at night and eating again in the morning. Some days my carb count is less than 100g. Other days it's over 200g. When I eat does not impact what I eat.
If one is eating Carbs, Protein or Fats in the IF window then one is NOT doing IF period. It is when you are going ZERO carbs that is giving you the health gains of doing IF.
No Zero Carb window = No IF period.
I just can't.
I've read that a dozen times, I need a translator.
Translation:
"I do not have the time, energy, or patience to engage in this yet again."
tl;dr:
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lemurcat12 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I don't eat low carb at all, but have never had an issue fasting. I do it from time to time for religious reasons (full day fast).
That is because you went ZERO carb for the day. Carbs are the driver of most all cravings. Hungry is real so we do not die but cravings are not so much.
I don't have cravings and I eat plenty of carbs (about 45-50%). The last time I recall having a real craving was when I was vegetarian for Lent and started thinking about my planned Easter dinner with lamb (and it was the lamb I was thinking about, not the potatoes or dessert). Obviously, that was some months ago. Occasionally I really want a particular food item or meal, but I wouldn't call it a craving, and it's something I can choose to fit in or not.
The idea that I was "keto" or "fat adapted" (more than usual) because I fasted for a day makes no sense. We all know there's an adjustment period before one is fully keto. It doesn't just kick in the minute you miss a usual breakfast.
I agree with you. This is why Keto long term or IF short term is NOT of interest to many for improving weight or lab numbers.0 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »EvgeniZyntx wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »I don't know why but IF doesn't have a massive effect on my appetite all day long. When I eat first thing in the morning, I am starving all day long...so there is a little magic for me. I don't know why but it does add up to a sum greater than its parts for me.
@ogtmama I think IF like Keto or LCHF we have to become fat adapted before IF may work. Getting into ketosis the first time took me a couple weeks I think. IF as I see it just LCHF. We are low carb because we are not eating and we are high fat because we're burning body fat.
IF need not be LCHF at all. I've considered doing 5:2 or even 16:8 (I used to eat that way for periods of time and never found it difficult), and read about it, and LCHF wasn't an element.
I was wrong. IF is only ZERO carb if you will think about it.
IF and Keto are functionally the same. You are withholding carb intake in IF and greatly reducing carbs to do keto.
The major way to make fat the fastest is carbs. The best way to lose fat is the inverse.
Technically the fastest way to make fat is to eat High Carb and High Fat at the same time. Processed food can work well to fatten up on for this reason. A Big Mac comes to mind especially chased down with sugar water.
No. I skip breakfast and wait about 15-16 hours after eating at night and eating again in the morning. Some days my carb count is less than 100g. Other days it's over 200g. When I eat does not impact what I eat.
If one is eating Carbs, Protein or Fats in the IF window then one is NOT doing IF period. It is when you are going ZERO carbs that is giving you the health gains of doing IF.
No Zero Carb window = No IF period.
I've seen studies where they showed that pure fat administered through IV did not bring the body out of fasting, which is rather interesting if you want to fast and take in more energy, I just don't know how you could eat/drink pure fat other than oil. Ugh, no thanks on that!
You are getting warm. Fat did not trigger Insulin production. While I use coconut oil in coffee or tea every morning I do not like drinking it up straight either.
Lol.
First off, fat does trigger insulin release. It just happens at a slower rate and at much lower concentrations but it is there.
Second, habitual coffee intake results in increased fasting insulin concentration (probably through mechanism of decrease in insulin sensitivity).
And all along you are forgetting about insulin sensitivity. It's not only the concentration in the body that matters but the uptake and impact.
Enjoy that coffee.
Why do think over eating of carbs increases one risk of developing cancer but over eating of fats does not increase the risk of developing cancer then?
Gale, I have no idea why you are moving from one subject to another like skipping stones.
Are you actually saying that someone on a high vegetable diet with mid to high carb volumes has a higher cancer rate than someone eating high fat/high protein?
Those studies that demonstrate some sort of correlation at high levels of added sugar/carbs are not partition analysis and they do not, in any way, make suggests that for the person controlling calories there is a beneficial effect to eliminating carbs as your posts here suggest.4 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I don't eat low carb at all, but have never had an issue fasting. I do it from time to time for religious reasons (full day fast).
That is because you went ZERO carb for the day. Carbs are the driver of most all cravings. Hungry is real so we do not die but cravings are not so much.
No. No they aren't. Are you seriously suggesting that people on low carb diets have no cravings for food?
I lost my carb cravings after not eating them for two weeks.
I asked you this before, and you did not answer. If you were just craving "carbs," why did you not eat low calorie foods that are mostly carbs and also happen to have a decent amount of micros. Like broccoli or carrots or tomatoes or even blueberries? That's what I would do if plagued with this "carb craving" that people talk about.
I've never once craved carbs, though. Sometimes I desire a specific food item. My most general craving is for meat, and even there it's usually more specific (I could really go for some roasted chicken breast or steak or salmon).0 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »Why do think over eating of carbs increases one risk of developing cancer but over eating of fats does not increase the risk of developing cancer then?
Carbs cause cancer?
Overeating increases the risk of several types of cancer. Period.
Macros overeaten don't matter. Extra weight itself is much more of a verifiable risk factor for cancer than any macro.
If I must, I can post reputable sources for this.5 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I don't eat low carb at all, but have never had an issue fasting. I do it from time to time for religious reasons (full day fast).
That is because you went ZERO carb for the day. Carbs are the driver of most all cravings. Hungry is real so we do not die but cravings are not so much.
No. No they aren't. Are you seriously suggesting that people on low carb diets have no cravings for food?
I lost my carb cravings after not eating them for two weeks.
I still get hungry but I just make sure on any day my total carbs are <50 grams in the process of feeding my hunger. I can now go 12 hours without eating and still function. When I lived on a high carb diet after 4 hours I had to eat or drink more carbs to kind of function. Fat is more like diesel fuel where carbs is more of a flash fuel like gasoline.
What, this makes no sense. You just told me a few minutes ago that why I can fast no problem for a day is that I am eating no carbs. But when you would go 4 hours without eating, you too were eating no carbs during that period. How are those 4 hours different from my first 4 hours on a fasting day?6 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »I don't know why but IF doesn't have a massive effect on my appetite all day long. When I eat first thing in the morning, I am starving all day long...so there is a little magic for me. I don't know why but it does add up to a sum greater than its parts for me.
@ogtmama I think IF like Keto or LCHF we have to become fat adapted before IF may work. Getting into ketosis the first time took me a couple weeks I think. IF as I see it just LCHF. We are low carb because we are not eating and we are high fat because we're burning body fat.
IF need not be LCHF at all. I've considered doing 5:2 or even 16:8 (I used to eat that way for periods of time and never found it difficult), and read about it, and LCHF wasn't an element.
I was wrong. IF is only ZERO carb if you will think about it.
IF and Keto are functionally the same. You are withholding carb intake in IF and greatly reducing carbs to do keto.
The major way to make fat the fastest is carbs. The best way to lose fat is the inverse.
Technically the fastest way to make fat is to eat High Carb and High Fat at the same time. Processed food can work well to fatten up on for this reason. A Big Mac comes to mind especially chased down with sugar water.
My last "meal" of the day is about 80 grams of carbs with a teaspoon of fat. Every single day. I eat this about 7:00 at night.
I don't eat again the next day until 1:00 or 2:00 in the afternoon. The first thing I eat then? A banana.
No cravings.
I relate all of this to point out the fact that making sweeping statements about carbs and cravings won't hold to be universally true and isn't necessarily a good idea in a debate.
I'll leave your remarks about "making" fat and carbs to the more scientifically minded to explain why you're oversimplifying. Denovo lipogenesis isn't really an efficient metabolic thing that just happens for kicks and giggles.4 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I don't eat low carb at all, but have never had an issue fasting. I do it from time to time for religious reasons (full day fast).
That is because you went ZERO carb for the day. Carbs are the driver of most all cravings. Hungry is real so we do not die but cravings are not so much.
I don't have cravings and I eat plenty of carbs (about 45-50%). The last time I recall having a real craving was when I was vegetarian for Lent and started thinking about my planned Easter dinner with lamb (and it was the lamb I was thinking about, not the potatoes or dessert). Obviously, that was some months ago. Occasionally I really want a particular food item or meal, but I wouldn't call it a craving, and it's something I can choose to fit in or not.
The idea that I was "keto" or "fat adapted" (more than usual) because I fasted for a day makes no sense. We all know there's an adjustment period before one is fully keto. It doesn't just kick in the minute you miss a usual breakfast.
I agree with you. This is why Keto long term or IF short term is NOT of interest to many for improving weight or lab numbers.
So if you agree with me now, you admit that you were wrong to claim that one must be LCHF to successfully fast?4 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »Bring back your metabolism to normal:
http://www.muscleforlife.com/reverse-diet/
Interesting article. Since I eat LCHF that by default typically increases BMR I have never done it but have seen it mentioned on some body building sites when researching LCHF.
How does Keto increase BMR? Do you have any references? This is something I'm not familiar with (and honestly curious in) since BMR is normally tightly regulated by several processes including mitochondrial efficiencies and T3.
@Wheelhouse15 off the top of my head I do not remember how LCHF/Keto has been proven to cause some increase in BMR. Since 90+ of cancer per some researchers is due to poor mitochondrial efficiencies I have been working to increase both the number and efficiencies of my mitochondrial so I expect KETO/LCHF does improve one's mitochondrial health that helps improve one's BMR. I did find the below that hints that may be the case in a passing comment.
telegraph.co.uk/food-and-drink/news/high-fat-cheese-the-secret-to-a-healthy-life/
"Bertram found that those who ate cheese had higher levels of butyric acid, a compound which has been been linked to reduced obesity and higher metabolism. The higher butyrate levels were linked to a reduction in cholesterol."
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4027835/
"The pathogenesis of irritable bowel syndrome (IBS), the most commonly diagnosed functional gastrointestinal condition, is complex, and its precise mechanisms are still unclear. This article describes the potential benefits of butyric acid in IBS."
I always wondered why after 40 years of very serious IBS after the first 6 months of LCHF/Keto that that my IBS seemed to be cured and 18 months later has not returned so far. Butyric Acid may be the key to why LCHF/Keto/IF can lead to fat loss as well as other positive side effects.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't increased mitochondrial efficiency actually lead to the exact opposite? Decreased BMR?
That would be the same as saying increasing muscle mass lowers BMR would it not?
weightlossforall.com/metabolism-raise-mitochondria.htm
"In order to lose weight quickly, it is important to raise the metabolism in order to burn more calories. Fit people tend to have a raised metabolism for two reasons, a higher level of lean mass and a greater number of mitochondria within the cells. If one has difficulty in raising the amount of lean mass it may be important to work on raising the metabolism by increasing the number of mitochondria."
coachcalorie.com/increase-mitochondrial-density/
"Without delving too deep into cellular biology, just understand that mitochondria are essential to our energy metabolism, and because of this, they play a very important role in fatty acid oxidation (fat loss). For fat loss to occur, fatty acids must be mobilized from fat stores and sent to mitochondria to be oxidized so that they can be used for energy."
So what you mean is increase mitochondrial activity vice efficiency, that makes more sense now.
Yep, via cheese!
And butter?
I drink a lot of Fairlife. Can I get in on this action?2 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I don't eat low carb at all, but have never had an issue fasting. I do it from time to time for religious reasons (full day fast).
That is because you went ZERO carb for the day. Carbs are the driver of most all cravings. Hungry is real so we do not die but cravings are not so much.
No. No they aren't. Are you seriously suggesting that people on low carb diets have no cravings for food?
I lost my carb cravings after not eating them for two weeks.
I still get hungry but I just make sure on any day my total carbs are <50 grams in the process of feeding my hunger. I can now go 12 hours without eating and still function. When I lived on a high carb diet after 4 hours I had to eat or drink more carbs to kind of function. Fat is more like diesel fuel where carbs is more of a flash fuel like gasoline.
What, this makes no sense. You just told me a few minutes ago that why I can fast no problem for a day is that I am eating no carbs. But when you would go 4 hours without eating, you too were eating no carbs during that period. How are those 4 hours different from my first 4 hours on a fasting day?
I have no way of knowing our differences. You may be able to fast for a day just because that is your decision. That is not something that I ever remember trying.0 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »I don't know why but IF doesn't have a massive effect on my appetite all day long. When I eat first thing in the morning, I am starving all day long...so there is a little magic for me. I don't know why but it does add up to a sum greater than its parts for me.
@ogtmama I think IF like Keto or LCHF we have to become fat adapted before IF may work. Getting into ketosis the first time took me a couple weeks I think. IF as I see it just LCHF. We are low carb because we are not eating and we are high fat because we're burning body fat.
IF need not be LCHF at all. I've considered doing 5:2 or even 16:8 (I used to eat that way for periods of time and never found it difficult), and read about it, and LCHF wasn't an element.
I was wrong. IF is only ZERO carb if you will think about it.
IF and Keto are functionally the same. You are withholding carb intake in IF and greatly reducing carbs to do keto.
The major way to make fat the fastest is carbs. The best way to lose fat is the inverse.
Technically the fastest way to make fat is to eat High Carb and High Fat at the same time. Processed food can work well to fatten up on for this reason. A Big Mac comes to mind especially chased down with sugar water.
No. I skip breakfast and wait about 15-16 hours after eating at night and eating again in the morning. Some days my carb count is less than 100g. Other days it's over 200g. When I eat does not impact what I eat.
If one is eating Carbs, Protein or Fats in the IF window then one is NOT doing IF period. It is when you are going ZERO carbs that is giving you the health gains of doing IF.
No Zero Carb window = No IF period.
??????
Intermittent Fasting means to fast... intermittently. It's not about macros. It's about going without calorie intake (other than perhaps a very small amount of cream or milk in coffee/tea) for a window of time.
Where did you learn your definition of IF? I've never heard it before.7 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I don't eat low carb at all, but have never had an issue fasting. I do it from time to time for religious reasons (full day fast).
That is because you went ZERO carb for the day. Carbs are the driver of most all cravings. Hungry is real so we do not die but cravings are not so much.
No. No they aren't. Are you seriously suggesting that people on low carb diets have no cravings for food?
I lost my carb cravings after not eating them for two weeks.
I still get hungry but I just make sure on any day my total carbs are <50 grams in the process of feeding my hunger. I can now go 12 hours without eating and still function. When I lived on a high carb diet after 4 hours I had to eat or drink more carbs to kind of function. Fat is more like diesel fuel where carbs is more of a flash fuel like gasoline.
What, this makes no sense. You just told me a few minutes ago that why I can fast no problem for a day is that I am eating no carbs. But when you would go 4 hours without eating, you too were eating no carbs during that period. How are those 4 hours different from my first 4 hours on a fasting day?
I have no way of knowing our differences. You may be able to fast for a day just because that is your decision. That is not something that I ever remember trying.
So when you told me a page or so ago that I can successfully fast "because you went ZERO carb for the day" you misrepresented your own view? I see.4 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »CorneliusPhoton wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »I don't know why but IF doesn't have a massive effect on my appetite all day long. When I eat first thing in the morning, I am starving all day long...so there is a little magic for me. I don't know why but it does add up to a sum greater than its parts for me.
@ogtmama I think IF like Keto or LCHF we have to become fat adapted before IF may work. Getting into ketosis the first time took me a couple weeks I think. IF as I see it just LCHF. We are low carb because we are not eating and we are high fat because we're burning body fat.
But not all IF goes for fat adaptation so what happens to those who are doing a higher carb variation? You won't normally run out of Glycogen on a 16:8 unless you are highly active but then you'll just replenish during your eating window. Also, what do you consider fat adaptation. My understanding is that most Keto dieters talk about fat/keto adaptation as being after they lose the fog and fatigue symptoms but from a biological standpoint it actually happens within a few days. I don't see IF being able to consider themselves fat adapted unless they are eating a ketogenic diet on the IF.
The way I understand it, you can be fat-adapted without being in ketosis if you follow a lower carb (but not ketogenic-low), adequate protein diet. If you can get yourself fat-adapted, it makes IF much easier.
When I went lower carb, I could easily go all day without food and not have any hypoglycemic feelings, even with exercise. IF was a breeze. I felt so clear-headed and energetic. I fell out of it after a recent illness and I'm having a hard time getting back into the groove of lower carb (and IF) due to carb cravings.
Being fat adapted would be possible with a low carb or keto variation but when I did IF I was still higher carb (45-50%) so I don't believe I was fat adapted, except while sleeping when we normally go into mild ketosis naturally.
I think this is the point...by extending the period of zero carbs an extra few hours, we extending the mild form of ketosis and that effects our appetite and fat burn...no?
Like I said, I accept that MOST of the benefits of IF are that it's a tool to keep calories down, but there are extra benefits I think.
You are always burning fat and storing it as well based on your energy balance. Fat cells are always releasing and storing fat and no benefit has been found long-term past the normal caloric deficit.5 -
CorneliusPhoton wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »I don't know why but IF doesn't have a massive effect on my appetite all day long. When I eat first thing in the morning, I am starving all day long...so there is a little magic for me. I don't know why but it does add up to a sum greater than its parts for me.
@ogtmama I think IF like Keto or LCHF we have to become fat adapted before IF may work. Getting into ketosis the first time took me a couple weeks I think. IF as I see it just LCHF. We are low carb because we are not eating and we are high fat because we're burning body fat.
IF need not be LCHF at all. I've considered doing 5:2 or even 16:8 (I used to eat that way for periods of time and never found it difficult), and read about it, and LCHF wasn't an element.
I was wrong. IF is only ZERO carb if you will think about it.
IF and Keto are functionally the same. You are withholding carb intake in IF and greatly reducing carbs to do keto.
The major way to make fat the fastest is carbs. The best way to lose fat is the inverse.
Technically the fastest way to make fat is to eat High Carb and High Fat at the same time. Processed food can work well to fatten up on for this reason. A Big Mac comes to mind especially chased down with sugar water.
No. I skip breakfast and wait about 15-16 hours after eating at night and eating again in the morning. Some days my carb count is less than 100g. Other days it's over 200g. When I eat does not impact what I eat.
If one is eating Carbs, Protein or Fats in the IF window then one is NOT doing IF period. It is when you are going ZERO carbs that is giving you the health gains of doing IF.
No Zero Carb window = No IF period.
Technically yes, but this does not make you fat adapted. The human body burns mostly fat at rest so in normal circumstances there would be plenty of glycogen to "snack on" that keeps getting topped up during the eating window.
Keto proponents actually say it takes months on low carb and no refeed to get properly fat adapted, interesting if that can be achieved via partial abstinence. What's also interesting is that my satiety greatly suffers if I don't eat carbs, so you can basically be fat adapted but still need carbs for satiety and energy?
I think that it's the fiber that gives us satiety. Candy doesn't do that.
Fibre helps but there are different mechanisms for satiety depending on what you are eating. Candy would have low satiety.0 -
Gale, you need to stop turning every thread into a carb thread.
1. This thread is NOT about "not eating carbs" like you stated
2. Carbs don't "increase the chances of cancer" (not a single study isolated carbs from the standard American diet, whatever that means, to control for macronutrient consumption in isolation)
3. Low carb does is not any better or worse than any other caloric restriction method for weight loss once you move away from what works for the individual (and if you really like studies that don't control for variables, vegetarians and vegans in particular tend to have lower BMI)
4. Keto does not increase the mitochondrial density or slow down aging at its own merit, and as a matter of fact most long-lived people eat a moderate to high carb diet.
5. Carbs make you hungry, but they don't make everyone hungry and in fact for some they promote satiety. Your personal experience is not universal.
6. McDonald's sausage is as processed as McDonald's burger and is not the best choice if you are chasing "X increases cancer risk" studies.
7. No one here is "saying negative things about keto". This thread has nothing to do with keto.
8. Put those pamphlets down and stop derailing the thread. Go start your own and talk about carbs all you want.22 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »I don't know why but IF doesn't have a massive effect on my appetite all day long. When I eat first thing in the morning, I am starving all day long...so there is a little magic for me. I don't know why but it does add up to a sum greater than its parts for me.
@ogtmama I think IF like Keto or LCHF we have to become fat adapted before IF may work. Getting into ketosis the first time took me a couple weeks I think. IF as I see it just LCHF. We are low carb because we are not eating and we are high fat because we're burning body fat.
IF need not be LCHF at all. I've considered doing 5:2 or even 16:8 (I used to eat that way for periods of time and never found it difficult), and read about it, and LCHF wasn't an element.
I was wrong. IF is only ZERO carb if you will think about it.
IF and Keto are functionally the same. You are withholding carb intake in IF and greatly reducing carbs to do keto.
The major way to make fat the fastest is carbs. The best way to lose fat is the inverse.
Technically the fastest way to make fat is to eat High Carb and High Fat at the same time. Processed food can work well to fatten up on for this reason. A Big Mac comes to mind especially chased down with sugar water.
Considering that fat enters the blood stream directly as fat and carbs need to go through DNLG I don't believe you are correct here. Carbs take a long time to become fat unless you are already full on glycogen, which means you would be highly over nourished. Now if you are talking about a systemic overview where you reduce fat oxidation while Insulin levels are raised due to a recent feeding on carbs then I can see that being a sort of backdoor way of saying this but technically it would not be correct.
The fastest way to lose fat is well know, be in a large caloric deficit.
Yeah, fast food is a great ball of energy that most people don't need.
Can we all just agreed a caloric deficit is REQUIRED to lose fat and there is no white or black magic that will cause FAT LOSS so we do have have to repost and repost that statement?
integrateddiabetes.com/Articles/insu/insulin%20&%20weight%20gain%20edited.pdf
"“Why does insulin cause weight gain?”
Insulin is a hormone that promotes the uptake of
sugar (glucose) by almost all of the body’s cells,
including muscle, liver and fat cells. At any
given time, our cells are also burning glucose
for fuel. If our fuel intake (calories eaten) is
greater than our energy expenditure (calories
burned), we tend to store more glucose than we
burn. Muscle and liver cells store this extra
glucose in a form called “glycogen”, which is a
very dense, compact form of glucose. Fat cells
store the extra glucose as fat."
I think most of you understand "Insulin" does NOT cause weight gain but that it "Enables" weight gain if one is over eating any source of calories be it C,P or F.
Carbs is the main driver of Insulin production in healthy people. IF works well because one is doing ZERO carbs in the IF window so insulin levels drops yet the body "requires" energy so it flips to burning fat because of the lack of glucose.
Low insulin level means low fat storing hormone level so we are not likely to store fact.
Our BMR still requires energy to maintain where is low, normal or high. Due to the being zero carb due to IF the body flips to burning fat. NO MAGIC is involved unless you call being Flex Fuel Ready magic.
Carbs are NO evil but are the main driver of Insulin production. Protein drives it about half as much as carbs. Fats functionally is not an Insulin driver.
Eating High Fat is NO magic but I thing all of you understand if 80% of my calories are coming from FATS vs. 80% Carbs that my Insulin levels are not going to peak as high after a meal and STOP my fat loss program as much.
Again this is all simple physiology. We have about 30 hormones that enable life. Insulin is but one and some of them impact our Insulin levels.
I agree we need a deficit with no black or white magic, absolutely.0 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »CorneliusPhoton wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »I don't know why but IF doesn't have a massive effect on my appetite all day long. When I eat first thing in the morning, I am starving all day long...so there is a little magic for me. I don't know why but it does add up to a sum greater than its parts for me.
@ogtmama I think IF like Keto or LCHF we have to become fat adapted before IF may work. Getting into ketosis the first time took me a couple weeks I think. IF as I see it just LCHF. We are low carb because we are not eating and we are high fat because we're burning body fat.
IF need not be LCHF at all. I've considered doing 5:2 or even 16:8 (I used to eat that way for periods of time and never found it difficult), and read about it, and LCHF wasn't an element.
I was wrong. IF is only ZERO carb if you will think about it.
IF and Keto are functionally the same. You are withholding carb intake in IF and greatly reducing carbs to do keto.
The major way to make fat the fastest is carbs. The best way to lose fat is the inverse.
Technically the fastest way to make fat is to eat High Carb and High Fat at the same time. Processed food can work well to fatten up on for this reason. A Big Mac comes to mind especially chased down with sugar water.
No. I skip breakfast and wait about 15-16 hours after eating at night and eating again in the morning. Some days my carb count is less than 100g. Other days it's over 200g. When I eat does not impact what I eat.
If one is eating Carbs, Protein or Fats in the IF window then one is NOT doing IF period. It is when you are going ZERO carbs that is giving you the health gains of doing IF.
No Zero Carb window = No IF period.
Technically yes, but this does not make you fat adapted. The human body burns mostly fat at rest so in normal circumstances there would be plenty of glycogen to "snack on" that keeps getting topped up during the eating window.
Keto proponents actually say it takes months on low carb and no refeed to get properly fat adapted, interesting if that can be achieved via partial abstinence. What's also interesting is that my satiety greatly suffers if I don't eat carbs, so you can basically be fat adapted but still need carbs for satiety and energy?
I think that it's the fiber that gives us satiety. Candy doesn't do that.
Fibre helps but there are different mechanisms for satiety depending on what you are eating. Candy would have low satiety.
For example, increased insulin increases your leptin, which in turn makes you less hungry.3 -
EvgeniZyntx wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »I don't know why but IF doesn't have a massive effect on my appetite all day long. When I eat first thing in the morning, I am starving all day long...so there is a little magic for me. I don't know why but it does add up to a sum greater than its parts for me.
@ogtmama I think IF like Keto or LCHF we have to become fat adapted before IF may work. Getting into ketosis the first time took me a couple weeks I think. IF as I see it just LCHF. We are low carb because we are not eating and we are high fat because we're burning body fat.
IF need not be LCHF at all. I've considered doing 5:2 or even 16:8 (I used to eat that way for periods of time and never found it difficult), and read about it, and LCHF wasn't an element.
I was wrong. IF is only ZERO carb if you will think about it.
IF and Keto are functionally the same. You are withholding carb intake in IF and greatly reducing carbs to do keto.
The major way to make fat the fastest is carbs. The best way to lose fat is the inverse.
Technically the fastest way to make fat is to eat High Carb and High Fat at the same time. Processed food can work well to fatten up on for this reason. A Big Mac comes to mind especially chased down with sugar water.
No. I skip breakfast and wait about 15-16 hours after eating at night and eating again in the morning. Some days my carb count is less than 100g. Other days it's over 200g. When I eat does not impact what I eat.
If one is eating Carbs, Protein or Fats in the IF window then one is NOT doing IF period. It is when you are going ZERO carbs that is giving you the health gains of doing IF.
No Zero Carb window = No IF period.
I've seen studies where they showed that pure fat administered through IV did not bring the body out of fasting, which is rather interesting if you want to fast and take in more energy, I just don't know how you could eat/drink pure fat other than oil. Ugh, no thanks on that!
You are getting warm. Fat did not trigger Insulin production. While I use coconut oil in coffee or tea every morning I do not like drinking it up straight either.
Lol.
First off, fat does trigger insulin release. It just happens at a slower rate and at much lower concentrations but it is there.
Second, habitual coffee intake results in increased fasting insulin concentration (probably through mechanism of decrease in insulin sensitivity).
And all along you are forgetting about insulin sensitivity. It's not only the concentration in the body that matters but the uptake and impact.
Enjoy that coffee.
Not to mention that if you increase insulin sensitivity in muscle that also increases it in fat cells. I'll take mine two cream two sugar please! 1 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »I don't know why but IF doesn't have a massive effect on my appetite all day long. When I eat first thing in the morning, I am starving all day long...so there is a little magic for me. I don't know why but it does add up to a sum greater than its parts for me.
@ogtmama I think IF like Keto or LCHF we have to become fat adapted before IF may work. Getting into ketosis the first time took me a couple weeks I think. IF as I see it just LCHF. We are low carb because we are not eating and we are high fat because we're burning body fat.
IF need not be LCHF at all. I've considered doing 5:2 or even 16:8 (I used to eat that way for periods of time and never found it difficult), and read about it, and LCHF wasn't an element.
I was wrong. IF is only ZERO carb if you will think about it.
IF and Keto are functionally the same. You are withholding carb intake in IF and greatly reducing carbs to do keto.
The major way to make fat the fastest is carbs. The best way to lose fat is the inverse.
Technically the fastest way to make fat is to eat High Carb and High Fat at the same time. Processed food can work well to fatten up on for this reason. A Big Mac comes to mind especially chased down with sugar water.
My last "meal" of the day is about 80 grams of carbs with a teaspoon of fat. Every single day. I eat this about 7:00 at night.
I don't eat again the next day until 1:00 or 2:00 in the afternoon. The first thing I eat then? A banana.
No cravings.
I relate all of this to point out the fact that making sweeping statements about carbs and cravings won't hold to be universally true and isn't necessarily a good idea in a debate.
I'll leave your remarks about "making" fat and carbs to the more scientifically minded to explain why you're oversimplifying. Denovo lipogenesis isn't really an efficient metabolic thing that just happens for kicks and giggles.
Yes there are few if any universally true statements about how to eat. I know what is currently working for me only. IF is just going without any calories for a window of time. It seems to work well for many and perhaps of zero value to others. I am not debating about how another should eat. It is the overeating that is the main problem. If IF help then it helps.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »CorneliusPhoton wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »I don't know why but IF doesn't have a massive effect on my appetite all day long. When I eat first thing in the morning, I am starving all day long...so there is a little magic for me. I don't know why but it does add up to a sum greater than its parts for me.
@ogtmama I think IF like Keto or LCHF we have to become fat adapted before IF may work. Getting into ketosis the first time took me a couple weeks I think. IF as I see it just LCHF. We are low carb because we are not eating and we are high fat because we're burning body fat.
IF need not be LCHF at all. I've considered doing 5:2 or even 16:8 (I used to eat that way for periods of time and never found it difficult), and read about it, and LCHF wasn't an element.
I was wrong. IF is only ZERO carb if you will think about it.
IF and Keto are functionally the same. You are withholding carb intake in IF and greatly reducing carbs to do keto.
The major way to make fat the fastest is carbs. The best way to lose fat is the inverse.
Technically the fastest way to make fat is to eat High Carb and High Fat at the same time. Processed food can work well to fatten up on for this reason. A Big Mac comes to mind especially chased down with sugar water.
No. I skip breakfast and wait about 15-16 hours after eating at night and eating again in the morning. Some days my carb count is less than 100g. Other days it's over 200g. When I eat does not impact what I eat.
If one is eating Carbs, Protein or Fats in the IF window then one is NOT doing IF period. It is when you are going ZERO carbs that is giving you the health gains of doing IF.
No Zero Carb window = No IF period.
Technically yes, but this does not make you fat adapted. The human body burns mostly fat at rest so in normal circumstances there would be plenty of glycogen to "snack on" that keeps getting topped up during the eating window.
Keto proponents actually say it takes months on low carb and no refeed to get properly fat adapted, interesting if that can be achieved via partial abstinence. What's also interesting is that my satiety greatly suffers if I don't eat carbs, so you can basically be fat adapted but still need carbs for satiety and energy?
I think that it's the fiber that gives us satiety. Candy doesn't do that.
Fibre helps but there are different mechanisms for satiety depending on what you are eating. Candy would have low satiety.
For example, increased insulin increases your leptin, which in turn makes you less hungry.
Unless you have reduced leptin sensitivity which means you are probably obese and have insulin insensitivity as well. Unfortunately, things tend to magnify like that.
1 -
-
lemurcat12 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I don't eat low carb at all, but have never had an issue fasting. I do it from time to time for religious reasons (full day fast).
That is because you went ZERO carb for the day. Carbs are the driver of most all cravings. Hungry is real so we do not die but cravings are not so much.
I don't have cravings and I eat plenty of carbs (about 45-50%). The last time I recall having a real craving was when I was vegetarian for Lent and started thinking about my planned Easter dinner with lamb (and it was the lamb I was thinking about, not the potatoes or dessert). Obviously, that was some months ago. Occasionally I really want a particular food item or meal, but I wouldn't call it a craving, and it's something I can choose to fit in or not.
The idea that I was "keto" or "fat adapted" (more than usual) because I fasted for a day makes no sense. We all know there's an adjustment period before one is fully keto. It doesn't just kick in the minute you miss a usual breakfast.
I agree with you. This is why Keto long term or IF short term is NOT of interest to many for improving weight or lab numbers.
So if you agree with me now, you admit that you were wrong to claim that one must be LCHF to successfully fast?
I claim fasting is nothing more than a window of time without carbs, proteins and fats. Water is OK to drink in my view. I know there are egg, etc fast but that is not true fasting but just a limited macro.0 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »I don't know why but IF doesn't have a massive effect on my appetite all day long. When I eat first thing in the morning, I am starving all day long...so there is a little magic for me. I don't know why but it does add up to a sum greater than its parts for me.
@ogtmama I think IF like Keto or LCHF we have to become fat adapted before IF may work. Getting into ketosis the first time took me a couple weeks I think. IF as I see it just LCHF. We are low carb because we are not eating and we are high fat because we're burning body fat.
IF need not be LCHF at all. I've considered doing 5:2 or even 16:8 (I used to eat that way for periods of time and never found it difficult), and read about it, and LCHF wasn't an element.
I was wrong. IF is only ZERO carb if you will think about it.
IF and Keto are functionally the same. You are withholding carb intake in IF and greatly reducing carbs to do keto.
The major way to make fat the fastest is carbs. The best way to lose fat is the inverse.
Technically the fastest way to make fat is to eat High Carb and High Fat at the same time. Processed food can work well to fatten up on for this reason. A Big Mac comes to mind especially chased down with sugar water.
My last "meal" of the day is about 80 grams of carbs with a teaspoon of fat. Every single day. I eat this about 7:00 at night.
I don't eat again the next day until 1:00 or 2:00 in the afternoon. The first thing I eat then? A banana.
No cravings.
I relate all of this to point out the fact that making sweeping statements about carbs and cravings won't hold to be universally true and isn't necessarily a good idea in a debate.
I'll leave your remarks about "making" fat and carbs to the more scientifically minded to explain why you're oversimplifying. Denovo lipogenesis isn't really an efficient metabolic thing that just happens for kicks and giggles.
Yes there are few if any universally true statements about how to eat. I know what is currently working for me only. IF is just going without any calories for a window of time. It seems to work well for many and perhaps of zero value to others. I am not debating about how another should eat. It is the overeating that is the main problem. If IF help then it helps.
Well, now I'm confused.
Because I can't see what your other statements about carbs and IF have to do with what you've said here.
To say the least about carbs and cancer, which have nothing at all to do with IF.
Very, very confusing.7 -
ericromzek wrote: »
That is incorrect. Insulin inhibits lipolysis, it does not stop it completely. Obviously, because you always have insulin in your blood.3
This discussion has been closed.
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